[Closed] Buyer's Angst - Is 650b On the Way Out?

I bloody hope not, I don’t get on with or like 29ers.  They don’t work for everyone in my experience and I tried, jeez did I try and blew a load of money trying to make them work for me.  That aside, I think the market has settled nicely with both options.  Unless 650b sales drop to an unsustainable or profitable level the i can’t see them disappearing.

The 29er main fault was skinny internal rims and now that’s resolved with wider rims and the geometry stretching out I’d say the 29er will be the forefront of the bike world,
the 27.5 will remain on smaller framed bikes in a range and then 29er on large XL frames (canyon/spec seem to have adopted this last year on the Neuron)

Bikes with the boost axle seem to be getting sold as being capable of 2 wheel sizes, 27.5+/29er, seems the best place to sell as plus wheel sizes aren’t all that’s imho.

My next bike will be a short travel 29er, There must be some truth in a short travel 29er has similar capability as a medium travel 26/27.5

All imho dyor ;0)

Buy the bike you want, and that suits where and how you ride, not what someone in a shop tells you to. There's every chance they have bought too many of a type of bike and need to sell em, I've witnessed it myself on many occasions!.

The only exposure that most shop monkeys have with the industry is sales guys, and they'll tell you any old shite.

Not many people know this and the media really don't like people knowing, but...

...there are still loads of people out there riding 26" wheels. To make matter worse, they're having fun in them and riding the same stuff as everyone else.

You can’t change physics, 27.5 is the fun wheelsize.

I’ve thought this for a while now. It won’t be done with any fanfare and there will always be some smaller wheeled bikes about, but it does look as though 29ers will be the “standard” in pretty much all off-road disciplines sooner or later. It doesn’t really suit manufacturers to support multiple wheel sizes in the long run.

The only issue is getting replacement parts. If manufacturers are starting to move away from 27.5, chances are those parts will get cheaper before they get scarcer. Can't see it being a problem over the lifespan of a bike bought this year.

The only exposure that most shop monkeys have with the industry is sales guys, and they’ll tell you any old shite.

Nice. As a "shop monkey" it's always fun to see what people think about us.

Thanks. I suppose the fact I would need an XL frame prompted quite a few retailers to question why I wouldn't go 29er.

Bad time of year to be buying too I suppose. Thwarted by low stock levels repeatedly on 29ers. Was about to buy a Rocky Mountain Instinct but no stock. Same thing happened with the Intense Primer. Waited on the new Hightower but it's gone all enduro.

That's what played the Jedi mind trick on me. Shops were suggesting the bike that suited me was actually one they couldn't get their hands on for a while.

Now looking like a Pivot Mach 5.5.

You can’t change physics, 27.5 is the fun wheelsize.

It's an oddly flawed argument though.

10 years ago trail bikes had 430mm reach and 68deg head angles as that was "chuckable" and "fun". 10 years on its just "wrong".

Unless you're actually pulling tailwhips over really tight jumps does the weight of the wheel actually make any difference? At off road speeds even my fat bike feels nimble enough even if descending on roads brings up the gyroscopic effect over 25-30mph.

Steering geometry makes a huge difference, but that was largely down to fork offsets being optimised for small wheels and steep head angles. And ironically rather than 29ers trying to ape the feel of 26" bikes, small bikes have just got longer and slacker to gain some of that stability 29ers were originally criticised for!

Nice. As a “shop monkey” it’s always fun to see what people think about us.

I wouldn’t worry - I did my bike shop stint from 91-97 and there were always some crap bike shop staff - just as there were good ones like you or me!

Why not buy something cheap SH until stock of what you do want is available again (assuming your bike less currently).

I briefly had a mountain bike again which was a 29er and my last one before that was 26". While the 29er was faster I didn't really like riding it as the wheels just felt too big. If I was to get another MTB it would be a 27.5 or even a 26.

I sold my modern geo bike in February. It was 27.5. I rode my old Titus Motolite 26er a few times when I was desperate to get out. Wheel size didn't bother me but the old school geometry did make it feel like a farmer's gate.

Interesting thoughts. I've been wondering when it's time to update my bike to a new sort of BOOST etc, more than 10 gears etc.

Due to bottom bracket preferences and loving my T-130 i'm thinking sticking with Whyte.

They've got some great deals on S-150s which i could then get some boost adapters for my Hopes and have the best of both worlds, 29er and 27.5. Only downside would be when switching i'd probably have to spend 10 mins re-indexing... So maybe i'd just stick with the 29er version. But i don't know if i'd like it as much as the T-130.

The obvious answer could be sticking T-130 and 27.5 but seems weird to have owned 3 bikes then all the same but later versions.

Nice. As a “shop monkey” it’s always fun to see what people think about us.

You should try being a teacher or a fireman! 🙂

I had sold my last 27.5 bike with the intention of buying a short to mid travel 29er.

However, the best deal / availability I can get is on a 27.5.

Regardless of whether 29 is becoming "the new normal" (it kind-of is IMO), I'd say stick with your original plan or you may come to regret it anyway.

Something I try to do now is to buy stuff when there's a great deal, rather than when I actually need it (if that makes sense?). As somebody suggested above, if you can't get the bike or the deal you want now - perhaps a secondhand short travel 29er will be useful in confirming or disproving your original decision.

It’s not on the way out, but it might/already is becoming the less popular choice for XC/trail/enduro bikes.

When talking to my local (where I used to work), they’re telling a similar story to what you’re experiencing: almost all the 29” stock for 2019 has been sold so folks are stuck waiting for 2020 bikes and they’ve struggled to move 27.5” off the floor, hence the deals.

As mentioned though, buy what you like to ride! The industry goes through trends, but unlike the quick demise of 26” there’s still enough OEM sales of 27.5” to keep support for spares and parts going. The only thing to keep in mind is resale value when you want your next bike if the industry is still big on 29” wheels.

P.S. I jumped into 29” wheels just over 10 years ago so never bought a 27.5” bike, but I will say that the latest crop of short travel 29” bikes are impressive, truly getting over almost all the previous negatives aside from the weight difference. I’m about to jump from a 2016 Trek Fuel EX to an Ibis Ripley v4, just as soon as they get more stock in Europe 😉

Who knows, the ‘industry’ has managed to support 2 current wheel sizes for, well it must be 10 years since 29ers were mainstream?

26ers are still being ridden and maintained 5+ years since they ‘died’ I really wouldn’t worry about it.

Buy the bike you want, although by the sounds of it you wanted a 29er, don’t buy a 275 just because thats all they have.

I was told recently by one brand that they were selling 5 times as many 29ers as 650b. I tested both with the intention of buying the smaller wheels but loved the 29er. It was fun, stable, comfortable, I love it. If you don't like 29ers it may just be you haven't tried the right one yet. Maybe, it'd be boring if we were all the same.

This wheelsize stuff is getting beyond silly.

yeah, that's it really.

Clearly what we need is a new wheel size that sits somewhere between 27.5 and 29" which combines the strengths of both without any of the drawbacks.

Just buy a whole new bike and enjoy it. Within 2 years whatever you buy will be obsolete - the manufacturers will have made all new standards so that you can't upgrade and will have to buy a whole new bike next time, whatever you do.

29ers are too big for me as a short arse. So non starter there.

Got two 27.5s and a 26. The 26 doesn't get ridden so much, but getting it out a bit recently I just love it, as much as the others. Noticeable thing though is I seem quicker on the 26. It may be the faster acceleration, not sure. Depends on the trails though. Short and twisty and the 26 wins. Long and flowy and 27.5 is a blast once it's up to speed. Not that much in it though.

The wheel size isn't really the big deal for me though. The 27.5s I've got are just longer / slacker due to being more modern, and that has advantages, plus different bikes as gone light carbon, shorter travel, and a lot more fun. The 26 feels a bit short now, yet it never did before, and again, still quicker on some trails. I'll keep it going for some time yet, or at least until the frame falls apart.

Clearly what we need is a new wheel size that sits somewhere between 27.5 and 29″…

Nah, what we need is two wheelsizes further apart… so that it’s worth having both available and supported. May I suggest the two we had before 27.5 came along…

Giant (and others) wanted to replace 29 and 26 with one new wheelsize, and ride the wave of having the newest thing… but 29 won’t die… the latest bikes (in both 27.5 and 29) are amazing. But we could (I’d argue should) have had amazing 29 & 26 bikes at this point. Updated geom 26 bikes, with the latest forks/rims/tyres would have been, er, RAD.

29ers are too big for me as I am only short. I hope they do not vanish. I can see them becoming quite rare though.

Just put a 29er on the front and 27.5 on the back.
(Managed to get away with not mentioning axle width)

Just put a 29er on the front and 27.5 on the back.

That’s what I do.

I'm currently tossing up whether to sell my 2019 stumpjumper and return to 650b wheels. I've got a 29er anthem for the distance stuff which I honestly think is better than the smaller wheels (I'm quite tall too at 6ft2). But for fun stuff, I just feel more comfortable on 650b, maybe its because I've ridden 26 inch for so many years. For reference I've had a Yeti, Salsa, the stumpy plus an older Camber, Kenesis FF29er, Remedy 29er and a process, all in 29 inch flavor. I just don't seem to get on with them.

I'd imagine the shops want to phase out 650b as it must be a ball ache having to hold stock in both wheel sizes.

I bought a bike last November that came in both flavours, and hadn't decided which one I wanted until I got to the counter of the shop...

I bought 650b in the end, as I thought the 29er version was a bit too cumbersome plus lingering thoughts about how manoeuvrable the 29er would be in nadgery stuff (probably bias and incorrectly as it goes)

nothing really to add really other than get what you want, 650b aren't going to suddenly become unavailable in the time you own the bike

deadkenny

Subscriber
29ers are too big for me as a short arse. So non starter there.

Got two 27.5s and a 26. The 26 doesn’t get ridden so much, but getting it out a bit recently I just love it, as much as the others. Noticeable thing though is I seem quicker on the 26. It may be the faster acceleration, not sure. Depends on the trails though. Short and twisty and the 26 wins. Long and flowy and 27.5 is a blast once it’s up to speed. Not that much in it though.

I agree, ive only had a limited blast around on 29's and found them to be more sluggish in tight stuff and initial acceleration, but on the positive side of 29's i do get how once going they are rolling faster and i'm putting in more effort on my 26 than those on 29.

The industry should never have adopted 650b, it was/is an absolute waste of time resource and money for users. There is clearly a difference between 26 and 29, but 650b well it's a bit mleh..

Aren't most eBikes 650b?

It will undoubtedly become less common - look at EWS and world cup DH where they wouldn't (initially) adopt those huge wagon wheels from XC.

Small sizes though it makes sense, then again so does 26er and how many bikes use 26in wheels on their S/XS frames?

Having said that, one of my newer riding mates seems to pop tailwhips/jump better than me. He rides 650b, I ride the correct wheel size (29er), so that's probably why.

TL;DR, I think the perceived demerits of a 29er can be designed out and ridden around to a great degree (buzzing my arse on the back tyre over certain bits of trail does happen and for shorter riders you can't design around this, but I move about more than most). But there will always be advantages in smaller wheels.

The demerits were just used as an excuse to bring out 650B everywhere, as people weren't as frightened and it wasn't perceived as a wheel size for XC racers and nichemongers.

Specialized Bighit, anyone?

Specialized Big hit lol.

27.5 is a blast once it’s up to speed

LolZ

the latest crop of short travel 29” bikes are impressive, truly getting over almost all the previous negatives aside from the weight difference

Which sums up the whole 29" thing for me: "the latest ones are so good, we've almost got rid of all the negatives compared to the previous standard"

But yeah, having used 29" as a way to shift more bikes and parts, and 27.5" to do the same, we're about due for another meaningless standard...

Having gone from 26" straight to 29".... I tend to agree with those that said it should have stayed with those wheel sizes.

27.5 was/is a total load of balls.

That said I hope it doesn't die out because not everyone is tall enough for 29 and need a smaller wheel choice.... So on that basis I really hope 27.5 doesn't die.

27.5 was/is a total load of balls.

So, it's taken the industry 10 years to get 29ers working for all, but 650b is balls?. Oaft. 🙂

Anyone else reading this and getting nostalgic for 2016?

Anyone else reading this and getting nostalgic for 2016?

Wasn't 2016 discontinued and replaced with 2017? Which in turn was superseded by 2018, which feels so last year now. I confidently predict that there'll be a new annual standard along shortly, let's call it 2020. I reckon 2020 will roll faster and change direction more rapidly. It'll be the only year in town for around 12 months.

Nobeerinthefridge

So, it’s taken the industry 10 years to get 29ers working for all, but 650b is balls?. Oaft

Sorry mate, what I really mean is, it just should have stayed at 26 with 29 developing gradually as an alternative choice, not a replacement.

You should try being a teacher or a fireman!

Pah, why get a proper job when you can ponce about with bikes all day.

Sorry mate, what I really mean is, it just should have stayed at 26 with 29 developing gradually as an alternative choice, not a replacement.

It makes sense to have 2 wheel sizes further apart, a la 26 and 29, as the separation is at least big enough to possibly make a real difference, all other things being equal. To that extent, you're right, but when 650b came along there wasn't exactly much growth in the 29er market, Giant had just ditched them IIRC?.

But folk claiming that 29 is better. or 650b is better are just a bit silly really, given the amount of other variables outwith wheel size.

I had a 29 FS, it was awrite, but not mind blowing or owt, but it was only one bike so I wouldn't dream of making a sweeping statement based on that. I don't buy bikes that often, and to that end it's maybe influenced me a little, in that 26 and 650b has worked well for me on the geometry of bikes that I like, so why do I want to change again?.

Mibbe 29 needs to be replaced by 30!..... 🙂

Mibbe 29 needs to be replaced by 30!….. 🙂

Where's that video of the nichemonger on the 32er riding up stairs when you need it?

I've noticed the 2020 Kona Unit X is now back to 29"

If the last few years have taught us anything, it's that anything and everything might become "obsolete" tomorrow and we'll not be able to predict it, prevent it or avoid it. So you might as well not worry about it. But as far as I can tell, 650b is still the main wheel size, at least til friday.

Aside; I literally just found my first ever actual disadvantage to a good 29er- the bigger rear wheel gets in the way for megavalanche cowardly wheel sitting on the snow.

Interestingly Giant seem to have removed from the internet the video where their product manager was putting forward the 27.5 wheel size and stating that all other MTB wheelsizes were dead and that 27.5 was the best of all worlds with all the conviction of a man with a gun being held to his head . I wonder why they removed it ? https://www.pinkbike.com/news/650B-For-All-Giants-Elite-Level-Mountain-Bikes.html That's the best I could find . Notice the beautifully reasoned arguments at the bottom of the page .

We used to do a monthly ride out of Wendover, one wet January there was about 28 of us, the ride usually started around 11am and finished at 5pm.

The mix of wheels was about equal amounts of 26" and 650b also some 29", but could you guess the year.

Well suprise, suprise it was 1986, so always take the death of wheel sizes with a pinch of salt.

Is 650b On the Way Out?

I hope so.

Be nice if it destroyed the businesses of those who promoted it in the first place.

You may not have seen the 26" wheel on MTB's in the first place, because Charlie Kelly and Gary Fisher were interested in going to 650b's back in 1981.

Yes, I know.

It doesn't detract from the point that the introduction of 650b was a cynical attempt by a bunch of shysters to sell pointless toss to the gullible.

It doesn’t really suit manufacturers to support multiple wheel sizes in the long run.

OMFG what. Of course it does. They're revelling in the stupidity of consumers allowing them to run three different wheelsizes in parallel for six years. I'm sure they'll do everything they can to keep the gravy train on the road as long as possible.

Forgive my mixed metaphor

I don’t understand any of the standards. Got a new (to me) bike last week. Stooge Speedball with a 3.0 Surly Dirt Wizard on the front and a 2.4 Maxxis Ikon on back. It’s silly fast on and off road compared to the Cotic Flare I had before. It’s all marketing bollocks. Just get the bike you like the look of 👍🏼

29ers look awkward so I don't like them and only ride matt black size XL 27.5 wheeled frames. I don't like the look of 650b's either but am OK with 700c bikes in matt black.

There isn't an awful lot of clearance between your backside and a 29" tyre on a long travel bike on steep trails, especially when hitting drops at relatively low speed. I contact it occasionally and my legs are longer than 90% of men and over 99% of women * so presumably some people would like a smaller tyre on the back?

* According to this:

With sensible head on, I had comparable 27.5 and 29 HTs. Same company, similar geo, similar build kit used by me etc. I kept the 27.5. I couldn’t put my finger on why, but it was genuinely more fun in my life. The 29 was bloody good though, and wasn’t an easy decision to sell.

I’m happy with either and would like to see both survive.

I can fully imagine this is all about either manufacturers or shops wanting to simplify stock.

Who gives a shite. Just ride the bike you own and enjoy it.

Funny how Danny Hart went away from 29ers to a mullet bike and Troy Brosnan still managed to lead the 2019 DH WC on a 27.5 bike.

I don't think there's any demonstrable difference in speed between the two wheel sizes, especially as 29ers get really heavy in the wheel department as soon as you put decent tyres and wide enough rims on them.

And of course 27.5 is more fun/nimble. Josh Bryceland spoke about this when he was asked about why he was on 27.5 on his new Cannondale, and I think he knows a bit more about bikes than random STW members.

JP

TBH I skipped 27.5 and went straight from 26" to 29" and I reckon it's much betterer (for me at least)...

I doubt they'll kill tweener wheels completely, especially after the fuss made when they were imposed on the MTB buying public.

But at least some bike manufacturers are already selling the same basic bikes with either 29" or 27+ as build options, it gives some notion of choice while actually allowing them to keep COGs/OEM/tooling differences to a minimum...

It doesn’t really suit manufacturers to support multiple wheel sizes in the long run.

Go on the specialized website and look at this year's range of stumpjumpers, there's a ridiculous number of versions, basically the same front end in carbon or Al, multiple tweaked rear ends to adjust travel or angles and then all x2 so they can offer it in both 29 and 27.5 flavours... They love multiple wheel sizes!

Josh Bryceland spoke about this when he was asked about why he was on 27.5 on his new Cannondale, and I think he knows a bit more about bikes than random STW members.

Not many folk in here will ride a bike like he does though. That’s the thing, everyone has different needs / wants. Just ride what you like. I’m a serial swapper and have gone rigid for the first time. It’s like a big, daft retro BMX. Josh wouldn’t approve, but it makes me smile. Less time worrying, more time just riding 😀

I don't know what the big manufacturers are planning.
If I had to choose one bike to buy tomorrow it would be 650b regardless. Buy what you fancy, it will all be fine.

Josh Bryceland spoke about this when he was asked about why he was on 27.5 on his new Cannondale, and I think he knows a bit more about bikes than random STW members.

Not many folk in here will ride a bike like he does though. That’s the thing, everyone has different needs / wants. Just ride what you like. I’m a serial swapper and have gone rigid for the first time. It’s like a big, daft retro BMX. Josh wouldn’t approve, but it makes me smile. Less time worrying, more time just riding 😀

That's not really the point I was making. A previous post in this thread stated that 27.5 wasn't more nimble, but someone who knows a lot about bike handling (Bryceland) clearly stated that it is and that was the reason he chose to ride it.

I don't care what other people say about 29, I just don't think it works well on long travel bikes for riders shorter than about 5'11.

JP

I feel they are trying to phase it out partly to save production costs and partly that racers have all gone 29. It's a bit frustrating as I bought a nice 27.5 whyte 909 last year with the view of eventually putting the parts on a full suss frame. Orbea have already shelved 27.5 I think trek are fast on their heels. At 5' 10" in riding shoes I don't really fit 29ers. At the same time I don't want to be stuck with a worthless bike if and when I decide to change frame.

There are still racers and teams running 27.5, top manufactures have both options.  Trek as an example have the remedy in 650b and the Slash in 29.  SC have the Bronson and nomad with the mega tower and high tower.  Ibis the Ripmo and Mojo HD4.  From where I am sat it’s the best the industry has been for years with options to suit almost everyone.  29 is not the panacea everyone thinks it is as much as 27.5 was, but it seems things have settled now with two wheel sizes which (for me at least) offer different things, but like I said earlier I have owned countless 29ers sold on the marketing. Only recently to move back to 650b as it just works better for me, my size and riding.

I really think it may eventually settle on a mixed 27.5 rear/29 front combo - that totally makes sense IMO.

JP

You seem to want to buy a bike now that will be at the bleeding edge of tech for years to come. Believe me, you can buy the most bang on trend, blingiest, most progressive bike in the world, but it won’t stay that way forever, something will supersede it within a year or two. This, however will not ruin what you have. Buy a bike, after much testing and research, that you like riding, and ride it. Your tastes may change, your riding may change, if so, sell that bike (or don’t) and buy another one. My 5.5 year old 5010 still blows me away every time I ride it. I thought it was perfect when I bought it, and nothing since, in the same category, has made me think ‘ermagerd, where have you been all my life?!’ like that 5010 did. Sure I’ve got other bikes, for different days of the week types of riding I do, but they are great, and won’t be changed just because a hub axle can be made a few mm wider.

Shhhhhhhhh but I heard that 26 inch wheels were the new 29 inch. Much more flickable apparently and acceleration is significantly better, not sure how widely known this info is so keep it to yerselves

Then Niner go and build a 650b.

Story is 650b(making trails come alive)was too much for trails to handle essentially killing them. Mtb boffins have concluded 29’s are the only wheel size to restore trails as being harder to turn they do less damage 😉

Well having finally just left the 26" world for 27.5 I hope it stays along side 29". The 'industry' does seem to be pushing 29ers as the wheel size du jour, but as I 'm 5ft0 I physically couldn't fit a 29er even if I wanted to. But I'm very much an anomaly sizing wise. Should I stock up on 27.5 tyres now?