[Closed] Buyer Claims 'not received' - Advice Needed.

I'd wait until I'd sorted out the claim with Royal Mail.

Suck it up and refund them.

[quote=jam bo ]Suck it up and refund them.
+1

It's your responsibility to make sure it arrives. The buyer may now want to purchase something else so why should he have to wait for his money?

Do you have proof of postage?

Did you offer recorded delivery at time of purchase?

Personally, I would advise the buyer you are putting a claim through Royal Mail - and for security, won't be able to refund the money until they have reached a conclusion.

Too easy to claim 'it's not arrived yet' and keep the item when it arrives (I'm not talking personally - just the moral compass of some people can be questionable... especially when it's annonymous, online!)

jam bo +1

I have the proof of postage.

The postage details have not been discussed at all - we just used the term 'postage' and '£xx posted'. Now I obviously see that I should've discussed all the details including signed for and insurance but it's too easy to be smart when it's too late 🙂

On the other hand I've been buying and selling bike stuff for around 4 years now and not once there was a single issue with Royal Mail. And I'm speaking of hundreds of items here probably.

Generally I have no problems with the fact that it's not insured and I'll take a hit - after all it's me who posted w/o cover. The only question is - it really is easy to claim 'Not received' as righfully mentioned above.

BTW, there's still some default coverage from Royal Mail but what if they say 'It's been delivered and we are not paying anything' in the end?

Suck it up and refund them.

I concur. It's not their fault it's not arrived, why should they have to bear the brunt of the loss?

How did the buyer pay and what did you sell?

Personally I would be hanging back with refund until you get your claim sorted through Royal mail.
Never had an issue with goods not getting delivered, so could be PB scammer trying his luck. It's full of them!

[quote=AndreyE ]On the other hand I've been buying and selling bike stuff for around 4 years now and not once there was a single issue with Royal Mail. And I'm speaking of hundreds of items here probably.
It's the law of averages then. The more items you send, the greater the chance that, eventually, one of them will go missing in transit. If you've never used "signed for" delivery all these years, then think how much you've saved in extra postage costs.

.

Yes he does have proof of postage. ^^

Paid by PayPal gift and it was a Manitou Evolver ISX-6 shock, sold for £120.

I do use Recorded eventually depending on the item cost but have become a bit more relaxed recently since never had any issues.

Just to re-iterate: I'm more than willing to refund if the buyer is genuine but what if not?

Not what you want to hear, but....
Refund the buyer (now, or after 15 days from postage and explain it MAY take this long).
After 15 days, make a claim via royal mail.
Consider recorded next time...

DrP

As PayPal can't [i]force[/i] you to refund the buyer, I'd hold it out.

If the buyer is genuine, they'll understand - especially if you have proof of postage. (i.e. you're not trying to scam them!)

EDIT: PPG doesn't allow the sender (of money) to claim against the recipient.

[i]but what if not? [/i]

problem you have is there's no evidence on your side beyond 'I handed it in at the post office'.

Does the Proof of Postage contain the weight of the item?

Shows to the buyer it was a genuine parcel containing his shock...

I think the buyer will need to fill out a report.

[quote=toons ]I think the buyer will need to fill out a report.
No. It's the sellers responsibility/risk. The buyer has no contract with Royal Mail.

I think the buyer will need to fill out a report.

Seller's responsibility to get the item to the buyer.

Well, there's no evidence on their side at all.

My doubt is around the refund time: if Royal Mail say 'it's lost' then it's a refund and all the loss is on me. What if they say 'it's been delivered' and I've already refunded?

Does anyone know what Royal Mail can say in such cases? Do they somehow track the normal 1st Class internally?

I think Royal Mail would just inform you they considered the package delivered - not sure how though. I'll ask my F-in-L.. he's a Postie.

The proof of postage contains postage class and price - I think weight can be figured out based on this.

Anyway, if I posted a stone of such weight and it would've arrived - that would be a totally different situation and it would probably be buyer posting all over the net 🙂

The thing is - I posted a shock and it's missing.

Try contacting Royal mail and ask the questions you are asking on here.

If you have proof of postage good, but will RM cover £120 compensation?

What's his PB username?

Do you have any reason to believe that the buyer has it and is pretending otherwise?

Think first class only covers you up to £32 (?) and even then they may say well your item's worth more than that so we won't cover it 🙁

My doubt is around the refund time: if Royal Mail say 'it's lost' then it's a refund and all the loss is on me. What if they say 'it's been delivered' and I've already refunded?

If you didn't send it "signed for" then there won't be any proof of delivery. Refund the money and put a claim in. I hope you sold it for less than £46 otherwise you'll lose out here too as that's the limit for 1st class.

http://www.postoffice.co.uk/letters-parcels/sending-uk-letters-parcels/first-and-second-class-mail/first-class-faqs#12500220

Personally I would wait the 15 days- after all, that's how long Royal Mail will wait before they consider it lost, so perhaps it'll still arrive. But after that, refund.

I have to say, sending something thats worth £120 and NOT paying a couple of quid extra for insurance is madness.

We send a lot of small stuff out with Royal Mail. Things do go missing but *most* of them turn up eventually.

Royal Mail's position is that it isn't missing until until after 15 working days - it wouldn't be unfair for you to take the same view.

Royal Mail's position is that it isn't missing until until after 15 working days - it wouldn't be unfair for you to take the same view.

That's fair. But it's not on to make the buyer wait the further 4 weeks it may take Royal Mail to process the claim.

Thanks for all the opinions, guys.

The bottom line looks as follows to me:

a. If the buyer is genuine I'm OK to refund now - either way this needs to be done and the buyer will probably send the money again if the shock shows up.

b. If the buyer is a scammer then I'd better wait for Royal Mail claim - this is the only way to make sure I receive the default £46 cover on 1st Class postage or can prove the shock's been delivered.

I really don't have any grounds to believe the buyer is a scammer, TBH. But the idea of just sending away money after honestly posting the item is hard to get used to 🙂

And - yes, I'm agree that not paying insurance is not the best idea. For future cases, in order to make sure I get the insurance do I need to go with the claim first and really verify that it's missing or do I just tell Royal Mail "It's been lost" and they pay the money no questions asked?

Just to re-iterate: I'm more than willing to refund if the buyer is genuine [b]but what if not?[/b]

You chose an untraceable form of postage. So you will never know. And it's now irrelevant.

Postal Insurance, and "signed for" are to protect you, not the buyer.

So as you said earlier, you chose not to use that service, so now it's on you to sort the situation out and refund the buyer.
He may be scamming you, he may be genuine, but you didn't protect yourself so you will never know.

Sorry 🙁

If it's worth more than about £40 I always send it special delivery or by some other insured/signed for service. Always keep proof of postage just in case it goes wrong.

Had the same problem with an e-bay buyer after years of sending stuff by normal post without any problems. He claimed the item never arrived and I had to refund him and make a claim from Royal mail. Looking later at this buyers' ebay feedback it turns out he'd also claimed another 8 items from other sellers didn't arrive so something dodgy there i think.

I'd wait until you can make a claim from RM then refund the buyer if the situation hasn't changed. You'll only get a max of £40 back from RM though.

Don't Royal Mail give the money back in stamps?

What nealglover said.

Having been on the other end of this on an ebay purchase, I'd say it's down to you to refund him and then make the claim. The onus was on you to get proof of postage and adequate insurance. The fact you didn't was your risk, not his.

What Sprocketjockey said about Nealglover , not nice to hear but you left yourself open to this I'm afraid 🙁

Unless you can verify the buyer is legit I wouldn't risk a refund just yet.

I have been flamed for expressing this view previously.

Wait the 15 days - that's fair and reasonable. After that its refund time. I would be happy with this if I were the buyer (and legit).

I have had a couple of non received EBay sales in the past for items I've sold.

As a result I have made claims against Royal Mail & they have paid out on all occasions (3 in all).

If it's a very cheap item they usually send stamps, with cheques for higher amounts.

Payments have usually been forthcoming about 3-4 weeks after I send the claim in.

I've usually ended up refunding the buyer before the RM money has been refunded.

I always send items non-recorded - RM can't prove delivery that way, so it's actually better if you need to claim. You get the same level of cover whether it is recorded or not.

Sounds like you've been very unlucky in this case - hopefully you'll get some good fortune to balance it out.

I always send items non-recorded - RM can't prove delivery that way, so it's actually better if you need to claim. You get the same level of cover whether it is recorded or not.

Que?
If its proved delivered, you don't need to refund.
If it's not, you know it's not and you do need to refund.
Am I missing something?

DrP

This just happened to me, I bought an iPad case off eBay from a private seller it did not arrive, so I waited 3 weeks in. Case it did, then he refunded me as agreed, simple and fair I think

I'm struggling to see how non-recorded is better [b]cycl1ngjb[/b]

What feedback has your buyer got ? If it's good then refund him now if not wait .

xiphon +1

I was in a similar situation a year or so ago, for a similar amount. Buyer reported item not delivered after a week, we talked and I asked him to wait another week and I'd refund. 4 days or so later the item turned up so we were all good, he seemed very reasonable so if it hadn't turned up I'd have taken the hit and refunded.

People will now be queuing up to buy stuff off cycl1ngjb's classifieds - pay money, item arrives, claim it didn't, no proof of postage, get money back, keep item....

xiphon - Member

I'm struggling to see how non-recorded is better cycl1ngjb

Basically (as has happened to me), what cycl1ngjb is saying is that when you send an item RM recorded, all it gives you is a signature which isnt worth anything - its not proof the the item was delivered to the correct person.
Your better off sending it 1st or 2nd class non-recorded as it give you the same standard RM £42 insurance and makes claims easier in these cases.

OP - as said previously you have to refund. Ultimatly its your responcibility to get the item to the buyer. If the buyer wants to get they're money back, the buyer could do a charge back through the credit card they paid for the item with - instant refund from your account through paypal.

FWIW, when you sell something to someone youe enter into a contract (in the eyes of the law I beleive) with the buyer.

The buyer gives you money and you as the seller agree to supply them with the goods. Once the buyer has given the seller the money then the seller must supply the goods to the buyer. If the seller cannot directly give the buyer the goods, then often the seller uses a third party (such as royal mail) to fulfil that part of the contract for them. At no point has the buyer entered into any contract or agreement with the third party.

Once the buyer gives the seller the agreed amount of money, then they have fulfilled their part of the contract. The buyer has not fulfilled their part of the contract until the goods are in the possesion of the buyer.

There's loads of idiots on e-bay, etc who state that the buyer must pay for insured / tracked postage otherwise the seller will assume no responsibility if the goods don't turn up. This is utter bullshine. A quick trip to the Small Claims Court will educate them in the error of their ways. I can't believe that e-bay actually allow people to list items in this way, but then again I can't believe a few things e-bay do / don't do.

Anyway, back to the point, you, the seller have not completed your side of the contract (doesn't have to be a formal contract, the agreeing to buy / sell is enough) until the buyer is possesion of the goods. If you can't prove they've received them, then there is nothing you can do other than ask them to wait a reasonable time (negotiate that with the buyer) or refund them.

The 'signature' proves that the item was delivered to the agreed address (provided by the buyer). If the buyer did not authorise a 3rd party to sign for it, that's not your problem!

Therefore the seller has upheld their side of the contract.

Thanks moykeyboyjc - that's precisely what I meant - any sort of signature gives RM a reason to reject your claim.

If I flip it around the other way round - lets say you get paid by PP then ship via RM recorded - buyer claims the item hasn't arrived - you provide the tracking to PP, but as PP has a general policy of favouring the buyer & refund them. You then go onto claim with RM, but they have to proof of signature so don't pay up. You're putting your faith in PP favouring you.

By sending non-recorded you guarantee RM can't prove it was delivered so provided you stay below the maximum payout then you can always claim & have them find in your favour.

In my experience - signature = proof of delivery of item at buyers address = PayPal favor the seller.

Your contract with the buyer is to deliver it to their address (provided by them). If their sister/girlfriend/dog signs for it, it's not your problem.

If you sell anything for more than a tenner, ALWAYS send it recorded. I sent something to someone in Australia, which I thought was recorded, but turned out not to be. I was in a rush at the Post Office to get it sent. He paid via Paypal and initiated a claim on me, which withdrew the funds from my Paypal until the item eventually arrived with him. Luckily he was honest and ended the claim when it arrived.

All Paypal care about is if you have a tracking number or not. Once you supply that to them in the claim procedure then you should be off the hook. Only send to confirmed addresses too, the one's on the Paypal account.

The 'signature' proves that the item was delivered to the agreed address (provided by the buyer). If the buyer did not authorise a 3rd party to sign for it, that's not your problem!

No it doesn't, it proves someone, somewhere scrawled a name on a card

This happened to me recently & the consensus was the seller coughs up regardless then claims through Royal Mail.

However, I have now claimed from Royal Mail & Parcelforce about 6 times (twice damage and about 4 for loss), and sadly they have never even replied to any of my claims. I even went to the trouble of recorded delivery of the claim form on one occasion and handed the form in person to my local Post Office in another. Uncannily, neither of those claims got a reply either.

I try not to use them for anything these days, they're crap.

Good luck with your claim.

PS: I paid the extra insurance on all but a couple of small items and it's as though it doesn't actually exist.

I've claimed on 3-4 items IIRC, no problem, mildred you should have escalated those claims.

Just to add my tupence worth.

On ebay sales I've recently added "Please allow 28 days for delivery". Other retailers do the same to cover the delayed in post situations. Then after 28 days you can claim from RM.

I always charge for Recorded & Insured. State the postage costs on listings so it's obvious to buyers. Some still fail to see it and complain about postage costs. 🙄

In my area the RM is trialling a system of leaving parcels / mail with neighbours if you are out. You have to display a RM provided sticker near the letter box if you want to opt out. I've had problems in the past with items "lost" when delivered to neighbours, so have opted out. Will wait to see if it works.

Back to the OP. If the buyer is legit then they would wait for the item to turn up or the required time for a refund. If they get bolshy then they're either bolshy or a scammer.

For expensive eBay items I always send using Special Delivery, offer "Free" postage, and factor in the postage costs with the item's price. Eg. Sell something for £110 with free postage, £10 to cover Special Delivery. That way you know you are using the safest method, it is fully insured and trackable.

from what ive been told time and time again by royal mail when posting something they only have a threshold of so much compensation and once you admit its worth more than that they wont pay out anything. The bf has taken things before n I've told him how to post it and when they've said how much is it worth hes admitted how much and then has been told you wont get anything back if its lost because its worth more than the compensation they offer so hes always had to therefore send it via special or recorded. Whereas I just say no, mind your own business! Having said that for a £120 item I wouldn't of sent it via standard first class but I've had nothing but terrible experience with royal mail so dont trust them at all!

thought id post again about delivery signagatures and paypal, as people on here seem to think its required - if selling with Paypals 'seller protection' a signature is only required if the item is worth over £150. If the item is lost in the post and is worth less than that paypal would generally expect the delivery provider to stump up the cash. Not that PPSP is worth anything anyway - if you go on teh ebay forumns, there isnt one case that i've seen where some one has been refunded in this manner.

There is no reason to post recorded or special deilivery for item worth less than £42 with royal mail - the insurance is the same and the claim procedure is quicker and eaiser than when a signature has been provided. A signature of delivery doesnt mean that the correct person has recieved the item. It was only a coupel of years ago that paypal added Royal mail to their approved list of postal services.

Recorded doesn't give you any more cover either.

A lot of firms will use recorded for relatively low value items, there's a theory that you get fewer speculative/spurious claims of stuff not turning up if the buyer had to sign for it.
I'm sure there's a lot of scammers out there that it wouldn't bother but it apparently it makes a significant difference to be worth it.

I have experience on both sides of this. I've sold stuff that disappeared in the post (and once stuff that despite ace packing turned up like a tank had driven over it). I also bought a Gravity Dropper on here that Parcel Farce lost.

When selling I refunded asap - buying/selling is a trust based thing and I wouldn't sell if I didn't accept that I trust others (I do always send recorded, but only cos my Grandfather was a postie and was of the opinion there are some rogue postmen)

When the Gravity Dropper I bought didn't turn up the seller refunded me immediately too. A gesture I really appreciated.

I guess each to their own, and I really feel for you - taking a loss is a kick in the teeth, but I'd refund asap. Like you, I learned the hard way about posting stuff insured and it's not a nice feeling. 🙁

Hi guys,

Thank you all very much for opinions and advice.

A little update from me may be in order. The shock still has not turned up. I've refunded the buyer and hope to start my Royal Mail claim process in a few days.

One thing - on the claim form do I say that the item's worth £120 or £42 in order to get the standard cover? A couple of posts above there's some info that if you have standard cover but claim higher item value you get nothing?

😉

They will ask you to provide evidence of the value of the item, so you'd have to make something up to claim £42...

...which would be fraud. Up to you.

Thanks for the info cynic-al. So really - if I want to have cover I HAVE to get it insured for the amount I can prove? The scheme 'I don't insure' -> 'Have proof of value over default £42' -> 'I claim and get the default £42' won't work?

Seems a bit disappointing and weird...

But anyway - great news! The shock just showed up on the buyer's side and I've got the payment again!

Really happy 🙂

If you want to have cover, you pay for cover for the amount you need.

IN this situation, you don't have cover. You could commit fraud and get some money though.

Saved in the end tho.

IN this situation, you don't have cover

Then what is this 'Default £42 coverage' all about?

I realize I do need to have proof of value, that's fine.

But why does higher than default value deprive me of default coverage? Yes, I did not pay for higher coverage, but the default coverage is included in the price of postage anyway? I really cannot have it if my item value is higher despite even paying for this?

You have no cover in that you were asking about claiming for a loss greater than your cover.

RM's rules are that you get nothing if you under-insure with them, that's all there is to it, sorry.