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I'm planning on building a wheel with 24 bladed spokes and 12 round butted spokes. What do you reckon the best strategy would be. Spread them out evenly on both sides? spread them out on only one side. Clump them together on one side.
It's a IGH so I was thinking about putting all the round spokes on the non-drive side with the six bladed spokes crossing each other (so all the crosses are flat-flat or round-round, not for any reason but it seems right to me somehow).
Apart from uncertainty on the tensions, anything I should watch out for?
Well, from the point of view of the structural qualities of the wheel, it'll make no real difference what you do.
Just like if you built a garden wall from two thirds red bricks and one third breeze blocks, it'd make no real difference to the structural qualities of the wall. You'd just end up with an embarrassing dog's arse of a perfectly functional wall.
I'd buy a few spokes and do it properly.
I can't see it mattering at all, having built various wheels with non identical spokes.
People often overthink spokes...
EDIT - Bez is correct, except for "properly" - it's functionally meaningless in this scenario (and I quite like "wrongness" like this just for the hell of it)
With a front or symmetrically-built wheel it doesn't matter.
With a rear wheel, the drive side has a higher tension so it's probably better to put he bladed spokes on this side
except for “properly” – it’s functionally meaningless in this scenario
I thought I'd established that it'd be functionally fine. But if you got a shop to build you a wheel and it turned up with a pissed up selection of spokes you'd take it back and tell them to do it properly.
Bez - to me calling it "proper" or not implies some sort of absolute truism about how it should be, and I disagree with that, it's just an opinion (albeit no doubt held by many). It just has to work, which you accept it will.
Paying someone to do it and doing it yourself (and wanting to use what you have so it doesn't end up in a skip, how can you argue against that?) are 2 different things.
I’m planning on building a wheel with 24 bladed spokes and 12 round butted spokes.
Why?
If it's because those are the only spokes you've got, I'd strongly recommend buying 12 more bladed spokes. Partly because it will look weird with a mixture, but mainly because unless those spokes have the same characteristics under load* they may alter the way the wheel responds when you're riding it.
If some spokes stretch more than others for a given force, the wheel won't stay round and true as an equally-spoked wheel would when you're accelerating, braking or cornering. It may not be a dramatic effect, but it will mean some spokes end up more stressed than others, which if it happens repeatedly (i.e. while riding) will shorten the life of those spokes.
If it's a rear wheel, and a symmetrical rim (i.e. not offset or drilled with alternating-sided nipple holes), there's an argument for lacing with twice as many spokes on the drive-side as the non-drive - you'll find some 24-spoke rear wheels have 18 DS spokes, 6 nDS because the drive-side spokes on a rear can end up taking much more load.
But generally most wheelbuilders would recommend using uniform spokes on a wheel. I'd be interested to know your results if you don't!
*Youngs Modulus? Strain-stress curve? I know what I mean in practice, but my GCSE Physics terminology is currently failing me.
Apart from uncertainty on the tensions, anything I should watch out for?
If you use a tensiometer and you calibrate for each type of spokes this isn't an issue - or if you use the sort of tensiometer that doesn't need a calibration / correlation chart.
Bez – to me calling it “proper” or not implies some sort of absolute truism about how it should be, and I disagree with that, it’s just an opinion (albeit no doubt held by many). It just has to work, which you accept it will.
Yeah, I was being a little facetious and I agree with you. That said, personally, wheels are one of the things I'm not very pragmatic about: This tragic state of affairs cost me a new hub, and I'm probably not even going to end up using the wheels myself—but I had to do it properly 🙂
If it’s a rear wheel, and a symmetrical rim (i.e. not offset or drilled with alternating-sided nipple holes), there’s an argument for lacing with twice as many spokes on the drive-side
Doesn't generally apply to an IGH… 😉
you’ll find some 24-spoke rear wheels have 18 DS spokes, 6 nDS
You'll find more with 16 and 8 😉
But generally most wheelbuilders would recommend using uniform spokes on a wheel. I’d be interested to know your results if you don’t!
As above, it's fine.
Yeah, I was being a little facetious
No worries. I can't think why, sometimes I bring that out in people 😀
That is some OCD btw!
As above, it’s fine.
Indeed, and if done in some ways it's arguably better that uniform spokes. As an example of being excessively fussy about wheels: my best pair (which are disc wheels) have Comps for the right rear and the leading left on both wheels, and Revs for the left front and the trailing right on both wheels; with brass nipples on the left side front spokes and right side rear spokes, alternating with coloured aluminium ones on the right side front and left side rear 🙂 Because why not, eh.
(The aim being to have the Comps and the brass nipples taking the most stress whilst still having a dash of colour in the nipples… keeps me amused, anyway…)
Doesn’t generally apply to an IGH
You’ll find more with 16 and 8
Cheers Bez! - it really is apparent I had an awful night's sleep... I'm going for a nap.
Shouldn't be an issue. I've often heard it takes different spokes to move the world 🙂
What hub is it? I'm not aware of a hubgear that will accept bladed spokes.
Or are you going to modify the spoke holes to get the bladed spokes through?
No idea about igh builds but dtswiss use a mix of aerolite and aero comp on their 29er carbon wheels.
Presume Ds with one, non Ds with the other.
Reading this thread again my stupid mixed spoke build is so complicated I didn’t even manage to list it properly 😀
What hub is it? I’m not aware of a hubgear that will accept bladed spokes.
Or are you going to modify the spoke holes to get the bladed spokes through?
Presumably he means ovalised or "aero" spokes (eg Sapim cxray) which will fit just fine rather than the older wide blade spokes which required filing.
Why?
Because some people just like to watch the world burn. That and the fact I get extra satisfaction when I make use of things I found in a skip.
Yes, I meant the aero type. They went in with lots of wiggling and swearing.
I ended up using all aeros on the drive side and 12 round and 6 aero on the left. I had them paired so the spokes were only in direct contact with other spokes of the same type with the 3 pairs evenly spaced. It actually looked alright (the aeros were black and the round silver).
Unfortunately the round ones turned out to be a couple of millimeters short. I then discovered that if I used a 2 cross pattern I had the perfect length spokes sitting in a drawer so I now have 3 cross aeros on the drive side and round 2 cross on the left.
Now I'm off to figure out how to attach gripshift to drop bars.
I was looking that up recently; here’s a useful link 🙂
https://www.cyclingabout.com/rohloff-hubs-with-drop-handlebars/