[Closed] British Cycling = Useless

My daughter won the west midlands under 12 West Midlands Cyclocross championships yesterday which was also a league race.

Firstly congratulations to your daughter

At regional level it will be volunteers from the clubs rather than BC staff who would be arranging podiums etc, was it only the regionals for the U12 girls? Were other podiums held for the region?

You can stand for election to regional posts to help fix the issue

I'd opened this thread expecting some rant about the dire access situation south of the border, or the dire road safety situation on the roads, both of which BC seem to care very little about.

But no, it's about gongs. How very British.

edit - was rubbish, as pointed out regional leagues provide prizes and awards for their competitions,

BC mainly interested in Olympic track program and nice salaries, that still stands.

At regional level it will be volunteers from the clubs rather than BC staff who would be arranging podiums etc, was it only the regionals for the U12 girls? Were other podiums held for the region?

It's been a long time since I helped run races but it was always volunteers. Also, we never used to charge for U12s, and prizes, such as they were, were donated by the club. Despite this, we'd have more complaints from U12 parents than from any other event on the day. This got to the point where we went on strike and refused to put an U12 race on for a few events. Despite it being 20+years ago, nothing would convince me to get involved at that level again though.

I’d opened this thread expecting some rant about the dire access situation south of the border, or the dire road safety situation on the roads, both of which BC seem to care very little about.

BC are spending thousands on consultants and dumping a lot of senior staff. They occupy a funny space as the access and road safety stuff has been traditionally done very well by cyclingUK, their attempts to step into this space was more about gaining members to increase their voice when bidding for funding.

But no, it’s about gongs. How very British.

Well it's arguably a bit more nuanced, women's cycle sport has been an afterthought for many, so an U12 regional podium might not be seen as important to the regional organiser but may well be to the kids and for anyone who cares about sporting equality it's very important that girls are encouraged.

Just because the OP comes across as a pushy parent doesn't mean there isn't an important point here. But the OP needs to engage and step up and be part of the solution, ranting on an internet forum doesn't create positive change in the real world

British Cycling are useless.
The champs were probably organised by the region - that's another world of pain.

I've known races where they've taken medals back off kids because they didn't pre-enter in time.

PS: I despise British Cycling. And Scottish Cycling and the region - (who used to phone me as chairman of a bike club and threaten to ban members from racing because we hadn't supplied marshalls for a time trial that no club members entered)

BC are spending thousands on consultants and dumping a lot of senior staff

not just paid staff volunteers too.

My son has attended disability cycling session put on by BC coaches for the last 3 years at the Gravesend cyclopark. Found out the session he had a couple of weeks ago was the last for a while.

The coaches have been running it for 8 years- initially they were paid then BC said after a few years funding was to be cut. The coaches offered to do it for free and have been unpaid for the last 4-5 years. Then last month they were told that they'd no longer be needed as the disability cycling provision is changing- but no word to the parents of the kids at the sessions how they will get their riding in future.

They're' equally inept at reading emails too. Affiliation renewal application submitted, BC asked for email address of our safe guarding officer on 18/10/21, I responded with requested details on the same day, chased it last week, they asked for the details again, so I sent them the original reply with all the details!

Regional Champs are organised by a club within the region, therefore it's their responsibility. BC just officiate these kind of things. But well done to your daughter.

Regional Champs are organised by a club within the region, therefore it’s their responsibility. BC just officiate these kind of things.

Somebody should be responsible for making sure the podiums happen properly, I imagine the same omission didn't happen with the male senior categories. The OP strikes me as the ideal volunteer for his region

And again

well done to your daughter.

I would love to know how this constitutes being a pushy parent? Loads of people we spoke to after the event said it was a poor showing that there was absolutely no recognition of it being The championships which is one of the biggest achievements in racing at that age. They are quick enough to show pictures in there correspondence of past champions on the podiums with medals. I feel more sorry for the girl in 4th who got nothing.

If you have kids of your own you would know that even a 50p plastic medal and a podium would suffice.

I was last involved with BC sanctioned racing about 8 years ago through the club I was a member of. The racing was organised by the loveliest couple I've ever met. They were retired, but lifelong cyclists and put so much time into helping and supporting the club and it's members.

Because it was BC sanctioned, we had an allocated BC commissaire. At one meeting, the organiser was, with parental permission, giving out those little packets of Haribo to each under 10 as they crossed the line as a "well done" for taking part. This particular commissaire went bat shit mental at her, shouting that the race did not have a designated feed zone and if she continued to hand out the sweets they would be confiscated from the children and the club fined. She was very upset, the children were upset and a couple of us had to take the guy for a little walk and explain to him that he was bang out of order and not helping promote racing, participation or actually anything at all. He was adamant that the rules had to be obeyed and he was correct in calling it out.

We complained to BC, never heard anything back but didn't get allocated that commissaire again.

To be fair, most of the commissaires were fine, but this one...

This particular commissaire went bat shit mental at her, shouting that the race did not have a designated feed zone and if she continued to hand out the sweets they would be confiscated from the children and the club fined.

Was this Comm a kiwi? If so he's one of the reasons why I stopped being CX Comm and not renewing my membership.

Your problem is with the organisers not BC. Did they do champs podiums in other categories? Having run races doing double sets of podiums can take a long time and often doesn't add much.

Having run races doing double sets of podiums can take a long time and often doesn’t add much.

The few races that I organised, I always made sure to award the kids races prizes, and got them something worthwhile. That was important, everyone else can do one and you'll get your cash prize by PayPal!

We've experienced some crap podiums for juniors - at BC and local races.

Eldest_oab won junior race, by so much he was second overall in time to adults. Adult categories got helmets (£150 value), waterproofs (£100) or pair of tyres (£70). Plus a medal. <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Junior podium were given a (broken in our case) £1.99 water bottle from the back of someone's car. No medal. And they were upset that third place didn't stop around for podium...</span>

We did a BC/SC race where I was told off as (volunteer marshall) for being too loud...and eldest was met off podium by SC coach who instead of congratulating him wanted to know why he was riding such a sh*t bike.....

Our commiaires were actually pretty decent as most of them or their family raced in the league, but the main benefit of running it under the BC was the insurance.

Terrahawk got a right whalloper officiating Hit the North a couple of years ago.

Are your kids doing it for the challenge and the desire to win, or for the prize money? If I won a race I'd be so made up I wouldn't care the least about prizes.

Also, are people really complaining about BC whilst racing and hopefully enjoying a race laid on by BC? Or are you not enjoying it cos of the prizes?

Ok, don't want to get into an argument and I'm no fan of BC most of the time either, but - up until very recently Regional CX champs were only for Youth and above, U12s/U9s etc were not championship races even if held on the same day, they were supporting events. This was for the same reason as a lack of the same categories at National champs, i.e. to try and put a lid on pushy parenting.
Don't shoot me, that's what the rules said. The technical regulations have changed recently and what happens at Regional champs now isn't specified, but that looks to be an omission more than an intended change.

(N.B. I have been chief comm at several Regional champs across the country. Wasn't on duty yesterday at any of them so not sure what West Mids intended to happen)

Want the opinion of a mid-pack duffer ?

Bollocks to podiums - I'd give prizes to the kids who cheer their arses off every week in little gangs.  Doesn't matter who's passing by; you get a big cheer.  I thanked them one week and they asked my name.  Next time out I got a Mexican wave and a chant.  In the rain.  3 hours after their races ended

They deserve the medals IMO

Also, are people really complaining about BC whilst racing and hopefully enjoying a race laid on by BC?

Well the races are generally laid on by some very hard-working volunteers from local clubs, under BC rules and regulations. In return for a per-rider levy, plus everyone's BC annual or on-the-day membership, plus the £1 skimmed from the online entries, BC provide insurance, a second-rate online entry system and a load of bureaucracy.

BC regionals seem to be a pain from just about every angle. The BC regions don't match up with the CX leagues, and your region is determined by your postcode, so to compete in your own regionals you often have to race in a different league from normal, which may mean travelling a lot further, and complicates allocating league points.

This year, our local leagues have run league events that "incorporate regionals" which means that, unlike previous years, out-of-region entries aren't automatically rejected, but it still makes gridding a pain, as they have to put the BC point-holders at the front, and you've got lots of non-league riders elsewhere. In previous years, I've not raced on regionals weekend, because I wasn't allowed to race at a venue that would have been one of the closest of the season!

I rode my regionals yesterday, but because I didn't pay BC enough for membership (provisional licence) I don't have any BC points and got stuck down the very back of the grid, despite finishing in the top 25% of most races this season. I'm very much a "for the fun of it" rider, but it's much more fun when you're gridded near people of similar ability.

I know that there are people who do care about the regionals (and I probably would if there was any danger of me troubling the podium - congratulations to the OP's daughter!), but I think for the majority of people, including the volunteers who make the races happen, they're just hassle.

Are your kids doing it for the challenge and the desire to win, or for the prize money? If I won a race I’d be so made up I wouldn’t care the least about prizes.

To win.

But it's pretty crap to see the adults next to you walk away with amazing prizes and a medal while you're handed the 7th (Knock off) buff or cheap water bottle of the season.

@tthew

I was expecting Jason on here actually about that very event.

What a throbber indeed

I spent yesterday standing in a field marshalling the central league Cx at Hillingdon (and also our first memorial Macnamee race in homage to our former coach). Podiums are done by the organisers and so I can’t tell you how challenging it is to get 450 riders organised into races, races run and podiums organised. I’m sure it was just an oversight on what will have been the single most stressful day of someone’s year.

Why not volunteer to organise the podiums for next year? And congratulations to your daughter.

Oh and to add good measure, our club will probably lose about a grand on hosting the Regional event yesterday.

you’ll get your cash prize by PayPal!

Oh and to add good measure, our club will probably lose about a grand on hosting the Regional event yesterday.

As a race organiser I never did cash prizes instead it was sponsor stuff or voucher, each category had its own sponsor, podiums were held with the right sponsor banner (where provided), it made the podiums relevant to the riders, the sponsors and the organisers ( we had to do them to get the sponsor pic to help retain the sponsor for the following year).

Giving cash prizes in local amateur events is a very easy way to increase your costs and make losses. There is no requirement in the BC handbook to award cash prizes rule G6.6 etc.

Next time out I got a Mexican wave and a chant.

please say you told them you were "scaredypants"

As a race organiser I never did cash prizes instead it was sponsor stuff or voucher, each category had its own sponsor

So more work for the organiser to find and manage companies to sponsor races and provide prizes! Balls to that, it's a big enough PITA job as it is! (are you getting the idea that I didn't really relish the task and was happy to stand down after my "turn" as the organiser 🤣)

North West league actually provided quite decent guidance regarding prize money and the number of riders that received it, and my books provided between £0.00 and about £750 to the club, the £0.00 being when I had to find a new venue which charged for hire.

Thanks @TiRed. I raced at hillingdon. I didn't have a great result, but enjoyed it all the same.

British Cycling are currently advertising two board vacancies. You could make a difference.

are you getting the idea that I didn’t really relish the task and was happy to stand down after my “turn” as the organiser

We all end up in that position

As for the sponsors the initial runaround is a faff but after that it wasn't that hard, also gives the opportunity to get the marshals some freebies and some extra prizes for the rider with the biggest smile etc (not a BC category but you want more than 3 people interested in the podium awards)

As an ex-CX Commissaire (mainly down to the useless kiwi chief comm above) it is a difficult balancing act - most CX races are organised by a small group of volunteers / clubs but the sport has grown massively as it provides one of the most accessible racing for beginners. Without BC and their insurance the option would probably be fewer races and £50 entry fees - you only have to look at XC MTB to see where a ‘commercial model’ gets you. My comment for those critical of BC and events, try organising something better yourself?

Crikey, sounds just like amateur motorsport.

I’d opened this thread expecting some rant about the dire access situation south of the border, or the dire road safety situation on the roads, both of which BC seem to care very little about.

But no, it’s about gongs. How very British.

In fairness "Gongs" are what BC care most about, and Gongs for the yoofs are doubly important if you want to encourage them to stick with it (IMO of course).

BC aren't really an advocacy body, they're a lottery funding for Olympic medal chasing organisation. Which is fine also.
There's always cycling UK if you feel you need someone to campaign on access rights and not being car-murdered, in theory at least.

Anyway I feel for the OP, his daughter has achieved something and not had the recognition she is owed, seeing your kids knocked back like that is never fun. And helping with recognition and support of "grassroots" competition is well within BCs mandate I reckon. Blaming it on the organising club/league is just slopey shoulders, if a BC Commissaire or other representative was in attendance and aware of the standings they should at least be pointing out that a regional championship podium for the younger age groups would be nice gesture if nothing else.

Anyway well done to her.

Blaming it on the organising club/league is just slopey shoulders, if a BC Commissaire or other representative was in attendance and aware of the standings they should at least be pointing out that a regional championship podium for the younger age groups would be nice gesture if nothing else.

I disagree, the podium is the responsibility of the organiser and in this case the BC regional volunteers. The commissaire is responsible for ensuring the accuracy of the results, not whether someone gets their moment on the podium. Yes there is a difference. In all likelihood they would have been supervising active racing as the other categories did their races.

Reading this from Alberta with a warm and fuzzy feeling (that doesn't help anyone I know) that it isn't just Canadian cycling that suffers from this problem. No solace I know.

This could just as easily be written about Canadian cycling:
"Well the races are generally laid on by some very hard-working volunteers from local clubs, under BC rules and regulations. In return for a per-rider levy, plus everyone’s BC annual or on-the-day membership, plus the £1 skimmed from the online entries, BC provide insurance, a second-rate online entry system and a load of bureaucracy."

My son (7 but tall for his age) was pulled (almost literally if another caring parent hadn't actually intervened) for his bike being "the wrong wheel size for the age category" which almost ranks up there with the kiwi mentioned above....

I sympathise with the OP and his daughter, it shouldn't happen.

However, like a lot of youth activities "led" by a national organisation, the delivery on the ground depends on local volunteers. From our own club (BC of course!) CX events, I know the ridiculous amount of time and numbers it takes, on the day, before and after.

Which brings me back to the old adage "Before You Complain, Have You Volunteered?"

“Before You Complain, Have You Volunteered?”

Yes, all but one of the races a mini_oab entered under 18 I have marshalled, often both mrs_oab and I have volunteered. We still help out on FairCity Enduro.

And someone like FairCity shows the breadth of prizes and way they can be awarded that's not just 1-2-3 on the podium.

Without BC and their insurance the option would probably be fewer races and £50 entry fees – you only have to look at XC MTB to see where a ‘commercial model’ gets you. My comment for those critical of BC and events, try organising something better yourself?

I'm not really disagreeing, but pre-Covid we had several non-BC summer CX series running, and they were all cheaper than BC events, despite running on lower numbers, so the insurance issue clearly isn't insurmountable (and yes, I'm pretty certain they were insured).

But overall, I do agree that without the BC framework we'd have fewer events. The problem is that BC is the national body - a natural monopoly - so it's hard to "try organising something better". For example, the BC online entry system is both lousy and expensive, but BC have the unique advantage of being able to validate riders' licences so switching to something else means more work for organisers.

The problem is that BC is the national body – a natural monopoly – so it’s hard to “try organising something better”.

TLI are an alternative if people don’t want to engage with BC

https://www.tlicycling.com/

We very nearly switched to TLI for our club TTs when CTT announced a further levy increase at the end of last year. Fortunately, they back-tracked on that before we committed to doing it.

For CX, you'd always have the problem that they're not the national body, so riders at the pointy end would be deterred by not being able to earn their BC points.

Suppose it depends if you are at the pointy end where BC points matter, or just having fun with your mates

The old rumours I heard were that no-one had ever successfully claimed against the TLI insurance

For BC and CTT insurance is a massive cost which is going up due to successful claims, BC also have people manually doing the points on racing licences etc

Suppose it depends if you are at the pointy end where BC points matter, or just having fun with your mates

If the race is "go MTB" the levies are half

The old rumours I heard were that no-one had ever successfully claimed against the TLI insurance

Does that imply the cover is inadequate?
Or are organisers using TLI good at putting on safe events?
Or are TLI('s insurers) good at deflecting spurious claims?

How many claims do BC('s insurers) pay? and given the relative volume of BC vs TLI events is that different?

Does that imply the cover is inadequate?

Does it imply it is fit for purpose?

Of course TLI events could be the luckiest and nothing untoward ever happens.... It's not as if it's essentially the same people riding or organising......

For all you or I know the TLI could be paying out weekly

Unless of course you manage the insurance for TLI

Does it imply it is fit for purpose?

The purpose of the insurance is to protect event organisers from third party claims. Are there event organisers that ended paying a claim out of their own pocket because TLI's insurance failed to protect them?

@big_n_daft

Of course TLI events could be the luckiest and nothing untoward ever happens….

If any governing body's insurers were regularly paying out I'd expect the premiums would be so high to be uneconomical. Your original point seemed to imply there were claims they should have paid but didn't. Either TLI will have taken the hit for that (unlikely you survive doing that often or will have beefed up their cover) or the claim was perhaps not as well-founded as you suggest.

Making claims isn't as easy as the ambulance chasers make it out to be. You have to prove the organiser was negligent. While risk assessments are a ballsache, they are relatively straight forward, if you get injured during a race, especially a CX race which is intended to have obstacles and difficult terrain, I'm not sure how you show it was due to the organisers negligence.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/mtb/article/20211122-mountain-bike-British-Cycling-announces-mountain-bike-calendar-for-2022-0

I think the problems might start when you put "British" in front of any sport. My son dives and sometimes it feels like they're making up the rules as they go along. At British Junior Champs one year there was a huge curtain between the end of the swimming pool and the diving pool. It was a ticketed event, you had to pay about £10pp a day to support your kids and a certain number of seats were cordoned off for the paying spectators. Unfortunately some of these seats had their view obscured by the big curtain. I asked if the curtain could be pulled back a metre or two so we could see what we'd paid for. The pitbull/security guy asked if I wanted to step outside. He kept banging on about how it was for the safety of the kids but any Tom, Dick or Harry could walk up on the day and pay to watch. Jumped up jobsworths. Don't even get me started on the logic of having almost every national champs in Plymouth rather than somewhere central like Sheffield.

Don’t even get me started on the logic of having almost every national champs in Plymouth rather than somewhere central like Sheffield.

Careful what you wish for - I used to work with an organisation that worked out that Pitlochry was the closest large town to the centre of Scotland and Leicester was the most central big city in England. Mathematically/geographically there is some sense to this although if you live in the outer isles on Cornwall you might argue they got it wrong but roughly speaking its right. As a result that's where all central events/meetings were held. The organisation worked with 16-25 yrs olds. No account was taken of the ease or cost of travel to the "central" locations, the relative population distribution or the location of people who were actually coming to events. Sometimes it's easier to be further away if that place is well connected.

It could be worse, they could have them in London. This year a four person apartment in Plymouth for the week of the Junior Champs was going to cost £900. I'm hoping prices have come down by the time of Senior Champs in January.

Given restrictions are picking up I suspect it won't be getting any cheaper yet as people try to claw back any lost earnings to cover bills and what not...

I had booked the £900 place for £650 two years ago.