[Closed] Bristol plans development of the Timberland Trail etc

I think whoever let that "artist's impression" of the new centre get into the public domain should be fired.

[url] http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bristol-trail-developments [/url]

FWIW the trails haven't been 'sanitized' at all, people still ride what was there 15 years ago. Repairs have been made by a very small group of unpaid VOLUNTEERS. The traffic is even now so high we can never keep up with the repairs needed.

The trails seriously need investment and a durable surface put in throughout - this is exactly what they propose to do. IMO the whole trail network is so shagged out, this is the only thing that can save them. It will no longer the 100% natural, but it might be less of a rutted battered blown out multiple line hub-depth quagmire with no flow. AC has insufficient topography to super techy uber gnarl - those trails in LW that have this will be left untouched.

But we will get a trail with some decent flow that will stand up to the abuse they get. We've been told we will not get a motorway - sweet twisty singletrack will remain.

I was seriously annoyed with the hawthorns section when those contractors came in and whacker-plated. But there was no other way to fix it up before the bike fest. Now its one of the only sections in AC that has really decent flow and the trail has blended back into the trees, which are still frighteningly close when you're pushing on.

The guy doing the work is world class, a local rider himself, and streets ahead of some disinterested council workers with a whacker plate. I have every expectation what he will produce will be good.

So I welcome it. Anything is better than the mess up there at the mo.

They haven't consulted any of the mountain bikers who actually ride it or know what needs doing.

Oh and this isn't true either - I was at the meeting where they spent a long time getting our views. The room was full of bristol riders. Well the ones that could be bother to turn up - not to dissimilar to the small party that turn up to fix the trails.
[url] http://www.bristoltrailsgroup.com/component/agora/topic?id=43 [/url]
[url] http://www.bristolmountainbikeclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=801 [/url]
[url] http://www.bristoltrailsgroup.com/news/160-1sw-projectbristol [/url]

They will end up sanitising the trail far more than they already have

Are you sure you ride the Bristol trails, sanitised? They are ****ed.

Oh here too:
[url] http://www.thecheesyriders.co.uk/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3060&page=1#Item_0 [/url]
and here:
[url] http://www.thecheesyriders.co.uk/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3066&page=1#Item_49 [/url]

From what I can see of the proposals the official route in Ashton Court will become easier but the (Timberland) trail in 50 acre wood isn't being touched.
As I understand it Leigh Woods has always been officially a prohibited area for cycling but it's never been rigourously policed so to get a proper trail and a skills area in there is good news.

I personaaly like Ashton Court as it is as I think the slippy muddy sections combined with all the roots that criss cross the trail make it interesting and just technical enough make you concentrate when riding without needing armour and as was pointed out above it's not got enough height loss / gain for some techy black downhill route.

Saying that my daughter wants to ride around the loop at Ashton Court and as it is I think there's some sections she couldn't manage (I maybe being an overprotective dad though).

If protecting / rebuilding / re-modeling the current loop a bit encourages more people to ride then it's got to be good surely, as in my view, once there was a dedicated route in place people would be expected to ONLY ride this and not the other places like the downhill by the "summer house" and that's why I think the current route is so heavily used and worn out.

I think it's quite a complex issue and in this case it's not been helped by Bristol being a "cycling city" as the council etc have to please everyone and justify money spent and probably need to show that "their" off road route through their favourite public park is accessible to all and not just a few scruffy mtbers.

Oh and seriously a BIG thanks to the BTG for spending their free time to keep the trails up together.

More nearby all-weather trails sounds good to me.

Ashton Court and Leigh Woods are practically on the doorstep of a very large city centre. The trails there get hammered 12 months of the year, so they suffer pretty badly. You will never have pristine singletrack in such a location - there isn't any there now! It has to be a good thing and I agree with everything ADH has said (the shame).

It sounds great to me - nothing worse than overuse turning trails into unrideable quagmires. Particularly keen on the pump track, beginner jumps and skills area bits!

I think this is great news. The flat xc trails around AC desperately need something. I only ride them when they they're either frozen or in high summer.
The rest of the time I can't be bothered. Will a modicum of selfcontrol from riders, these new developments should take traffic off the good natural trails in wet weather, meaning that the good trails stay good for longer. Of course, most people will probably continue to knacker the good trails in the wet, even when this alternative is available...

There has been ample consultation with those with even a passing interest in the trails in AC, and the trailbuilder is a good choice. Well done Bristol I say!

Phil Saxena doesn't make a habit of 'sanitising' tracks or trails and as said this will make the trails rideable all year hopefully. Theres so much moaning that no money is being spent then when Bristol stump up the cash, involve the local community and employ a world class trail builder thats not good enough either. If it means I have a trail centre on my doorstep that not only pro level xc'ers but myself and my kids can ride year round then bring it on.

Have you seen the stupid [url= http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Bike-trails-make-envy-UK/article-3123960-detail/article.html ]comments on the this is bristol site?[/url]

400,000 for mountain bike trails. Is the world going mad?

I presume that the people who use them will be charged to try and recoup some cash or will it simply be funded by the motorist?

sounds like they have their very own TJ as well. He's called George 😀

and like theres anyone actually called Timothy living in Bedminster.

I'm in 2 minds, I don't like gravelled paths but riding in Leigh Woods Tuesday night meant sticking to the fire roads, as the trails are pure mud, the AC trail is even worse, at least I would be able to ride all year round and Monday Cheesy rides could support normal numbers...

good news. lots of other trails if you don't want to ride theirs.
something for everyone and a cafe. Great.

just gutted I don't live in Brizol anymore.

Bit early to make assumptions IMO.
I'll just wish mr saxena the best of luck. I've only ridden AC/LW twice. Didn't like it but look forward to trying again after the work.

Bit early to make assumptions IMO.
I'll just wish mr saxena the best of luck

Indeed.

I used to ride in LW & surrounding environs pretty much every day (ah, the beauty of shiftwork) during the summer/autumn... & avoided it religiously during winter. And I grew up on Mendip - where the mud [i]eats[/i] bikes.

I can't wait to be back.

There will be (hopefully) all season semi-technical trails which Bristol really needs, and the other, old, "interesting" stuff will still be there for those who know where it is to ride.

I struggle to see anything negative in all this.

When are you back noteeth?

[i]When are you back noteeth?[/i]

Summer, if all goes to plan...

First opportunity I get, I'm riding out to Blackdown & up to the Trig point.

And then I'll sit there for a while. 😀

and like theres anyone actually called Timothy living in Bedminster.

I know one of the guys on the build team, he races WC 4x so knows a fair bit about making a nice trail that flows yo. All good as far as I'm concerned, shame I won't be around to enjoy it 🙁

Personally I'm with the OP and racemonkey on this one, I like AC the way it is - rutted and rooty and technical - I just don't go up there when it's wet. Mind you, you need a few idiots who do to make it what it is.

The problem is that the Timberland Trail already covers most of the wooded area (that's not deer enclosure) in AC so there's little latitude for additional bits off the main route.

LW on the other hand is a vast wooded area with tracks all over the place, all of which are a bit permissive. Here an official route would legitimise mountain biking in the woods whilst allowing harder, off-piste additions. It would also link in with the easy motorway down to Paradise Bottom and the cycle track along the river.

If it means I have a trail centre on my doorstep that not only pro level xc'ers but myself and my kids can ride ...

ridingscared

I can't see that happening, they're blue trails remember.

I've missed all this as usual because I can't get on the forum at work, but just to clarify a few points:

- The trail at the moment has terrible problems with drainage and soil type in particular, and has had needed regular work over the past 4-5 years to keep it running. This has all been undertaken by volunteers, as ADH says - a situation that can't really continue indefinitely.

- The trails are going to be a mix of blue, red and skills area. To be honest I think all the current official trails would be graded as blue if they weren't in such an awful state for the wetter months of the year.

- There are some other projects in the works that will complement the main trails, such as the pump and jump track on the way to the trails, and it also looks likely (although not definite) that Still is going to reopen as a DH venue. Also the trail in 50 Acre is going to stay natural and there may be scope to develop other places as riding spots too.

- Even if you don't think the development plan is catering to most riders' needs, it makes much more sense to start with something accessible and build on it, rather than risk creating a white elephant which only a few riders will use.

- Leigh Woods is really crying out for an official trail. It has a reputation as a great place to ride, but the number of completely knackered trails there has grown over the past few years as it becomes a victim of its own popularity. The ones in the worst state (which are almost certainly the ones that get the most use) are the gentle flowy trails across the top of the wood, not the scary steep stuff.

- When you're consulting for a project like this, it's nigh-on impossible to involve everyone.

- The design for the trail isn't planned out to the last detail, and there is plenty of scope for tweaking as the builders figure out what works where.

If anyone's got any specific questions, feel free to drop me an email. I'm not on the design team, I just co-ordinate the volunteer repair efforts, but to his credit the designer has tried to actively involve the volunteers in the design process as much as possible, so I feel pretty clued up (not to mention optimistic) about the project.

Cheers

Antony

Have to reply to this

The trails are going to be a mix of blue, red and skills area

From the published plans the proposed trails appear to be 90% blue with a small red section each in AC and LW and a skills area in LW. That's not much of a mix.

To be honest I think all the current official trails would be graded as blue if they weren't in such an awful state for the wetter months of the year.

Yes, so they're probably about red as they are. Nice!

There are some other projects in the works that will complement the main trails, such as the pump and jump track on the way to the trails, and it also looks likely (although not definite) that Still is going to reopen as a DH venue.

I (and I think others) don't want pump or jump or downhill, I want a continuous red graded trail. Like AC is at the moment!

rather than risk creating a white elephant which only a few riders will use.

I don't think there's any chance the existing track in AC would ever become an unused white elephant.

Leigh Woods is really crying out for an official trail....

Here we agree.

Finally ...

Even if you don't think the development plan is catering to most riders' needs, it makes much more sense to start with something accessible and build on it

Why? Why take away people's amenity? AC's only problem is overpopularity, which would be relieved by having an easier, all-weather route in LW. And as stated above, there's not much room for alternatives in AC.

noteeth: "First opportunity I get, I'm riding out to Blackdown & up to the Trig point."

Alert the locals nearer the time and we'll help you celebrate your return.

Still Woods was the biggest loss to bristol riding, that place was special 🙁

The timberland trail? its a bit dull, I can only imagine that the addition of hard packed sanitized trails will be erm, good for emptying the dog along?

I want a continuous red graded trail. Like AC is at the moment!

Eh? A few roots do not a red trail make. In the dry I commute in on it on my slicked-up road bike FFS.

Some people really will look a gift horse in the mouth.

Eh? A few roots do not a red trail make. In the dry I commute in on it on my slicked-up road bike FFS.

You Sir are rad to the power of sick.

did you know that phrase comes from the fact that you can gain a reasonable idea of a horses age by looking at how much of their teeth are showing, you'll probably also be familiar with the phrase "long in the tooth" and again that's of a similar origin. So in essence, don't look a gift horse in the mouth as you may find something a little disappointing if you peer too deep.

so there we go, there end the lesson.

This thread highlights the Bristolian attitude to sport in the City, no consensus and so nothing gets done. I'm pretty happy with the plans, some reservations that the trail appears to be 95% blue, but looking forwards to a pump track and jumps area (for over 30s please, no intimiding yoofs!).

The cafe will be a great edition, hopefully with a more cheery proprietor and no "no muddy bikers" signs...

My main worry would be if the unofficial trails in Leigh Woods were closed to bikes, I dont think that would be the case though, the Knicker Trail etc should main open. As pointed out, LW is a mud fest right now (no surprise I know) and unrideable in parts.

But, I'll believe it when I see it, cant believe this is going to be done by the end of the summer....

Being as I am, rad to the power of sick, I am well aware of the origins of the phrase.

Its a gift, even if you're going to boil it for glue, you're still quids-in.

Its a gift, even if you're going to boil it for glue, you're still quids-in.

I owned (by default) a racehorse once, it cost me many, many £'s to look after, If I had sold it for glue it still would have owed me many, many £'s.

Eh? A few roots do not a red trail make.

Magenta then! It's certainly a bit more than blue, which was my point.

Its a gift, even if you're going to boil it for glue, you're still quids-in.

Not if they've taken away your thoroughbred and given you an old nag, which again, was my point.

I agree with magenta in present state. But they want a blue trail with red bits in it. Fair enough.

But they want a blue trail with red bits in it.

Have you seen the plans? They want a blue trail with a tiny bit of red for decoration.

[img] [/img]

([url= ]Link for larger map[/url])

I'm just baffled that there are people that enjoy riding AC in the wet. Even compared to 2004 when I moved to Bristol, it is now totally trashed. Flat trails with big wet holes in them are just no fun to me. Anthony and team's fantastic efforts mean that the trails are still pretty good in the dry, but I'd rather have a weatherproof, flowy blue trail that I could get some winter night riding in on than the current quagmire. The OP makes out that it is some mecca of technical XC riding that is going to be 'sanitized'. It isn't, it's a blown out mess of what used to be nice woodland single track.

Just because at present novices find it difficult while more experienced riders can ride it with no trouble doesn't mean that it is good riding.

longwayhome - what have you done so far to enhance the trails in the area? You seem hard over that what is planned is bad, what is there is what is wanted and the first funded trail should be what you want.

The Timberland Trail is battered. Another trail, of any grade, FUNDED, has to be a good thing, even if you are too gnar to ride it. I'd guess the vast majority of riders will get more out of what is planned than what you suggest, so the majority gets it - democracy in action. Pump and downhill? Diversity is great and welcomed. This is a city centre facility, not a Welsh valley. It has to survive over-use more than anything.

Another trail, of any grade, FUNDED, has to be a good thing

Yes, for LW where there is not an existing continuous trail but a series of excursions off the main tracks. No to AC where there is something already in existence that is more interesting than the sanitised version we will be handed back that has little possibility of harder detours.

I'd guess the vast majority of riders will get more out of what is planned than what you suggest

Sorry to sound like Laocoon, but I think a lot of people will miss the current AC (in dry conditions) when it’s gone. In fact I think my plan offers something for everyone, not just a dumbing-down all round.

so the majority gets it - democracy in action

As the OP said, I don’t think much effort was made to consult local riders, I certainly didn’t hear anything about it until the recent announcement.

Pump and downhill? Diversity is great and welcomed

I’m not against pump, jump and/or downhill, just that it’s not a replacement for the current AC Magenta.

This is a city centre facility

No, that would be Broadmead or Lloyds Amphitheatre. This is city limits.

I can understand people's reservations about what's happening to the trail in Ashton Court, and yes the roots will go (there will probably still be some rocks) and the new trail will probably be ridiculously quick to get round compared with the old rutted struggle-fest.

I'm not sure I recognise the description of it as a "continous red trail" though - it's more like a few OK sections of singletrack linked up with road, gravel tracks and muddy slogs along the edges of fields. If, as planned, the new trail uses fewer of the dull connecting bits, narrows the stupidly wide sections and adds a few more twists and turns (a lot of the trail is very straight at the moment) then it may not even seem that much shorter.

People also seem to be downplaying the problems that bad weather causes. Next time you're riding the section along the quarry fence, have a look at the edges. In places it is 6" below the surrounding soil due to erosion. That in turn makes decent drainage a near-impossibility, which increases erosion as people cut through the wet trail surface or worse, go round the puddles and widen the trail. It's a vicious circle that requires some major work to reverse.

By my reckoning we spent around 300 man hours working on the Ashton Court trail last year and it's still verging on unrideable in the winter, unless it's frozen. And don't forget that we recently had two summers on the trot that were near wash-outs too. The new trail is going to be built in a way that addresses these problems . To my mind that's better having something that's fun to ride for just a couple of months a year, after lots of hard work has gone into it.

As for making the trails easier to ride, it's only one trail out of a number we have in Bristol, and it's the first place that many people go when they want to try mountain biking. Of course I want more technical trails in my life but there are other places where they exist, or can be built in the future. I can see where the project managers were coming from when they decided that Ashton Court should be a beginner-friendly experience.

There are defintiely concessions to more experienced riders. 50 Acre Wood is being left under rider control (that's about 50% of the singletrack in the Timberland Trail) and there should be plenty of techy features dotted about the easier trails. Parts of the new Leigh Woods trail are also going to have to be built by hand - from experience I'd say it's hard to end up with a dull uniform trail when you're doing this.

We have been consistently pushing for harder official trails in Bristol and the stumbling block we always come up against is that the current trails don't really fit the brief as a hard trail (too flat and too popular with beginners) yet they're not beginner-friendly either.

There's also the problem that there is no reason for the current trails to attract further development or investment. They exist but they have fairly limited appeal. So we end up fixing them for free with minimal resources.

The new trails are going to offer people a much more consistent experience, and there's a chance to build businesses (and therefore revenue streams for trail development) off the back of this, and expand the official network to include more challenging facilities in the future. I doubt this would ever happen if the new trails were designed specifically to appeal to a core audience of a couple of hundred experienced mountain bikers.

Sorry for the length of this ramble, but just one more point. It annoys me when riders complain about being kept out of the loop, when I'm maintaining a website, a forum (hardly used), a mailing list, a Facebook page, a Twitter feed (alright, the last two are the same), [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bristol-trail-development-consultation ]and starting the odd thread on STW[/url], not to mention our web address and my phone number are on signs at the start of the Ashton Court and 50 Acre trail.

If you want to know what's going on then you can drop us an email, phone me, or if you don't use Facebook/don't have an internet connection/can;t use a phone/aren't literate, you can always stop and talk to us when you see us on a trail day. I'm also planning an informal meeting where hopefully some representatives from the deisgners can come along and answer questions - more details to follow soon.

Very well said mr agreeable.

Aye. Sounds good to me. When's the next dig? 🙂

Lots of fair weather bikers here; I would like to point out that this is a luxury opinion. I am one of those who ride AC in the wet/snow/dry. Like many, I plan my rides in advance and have to work them in around family and professional commitments. If it is raining on that 'special' day I am left with the choice to either wait a couple of weeks, or hit the trails!

Hit the trails everytime!

Thanks to all those who volunteer their free time to maintain the trails that give me so much joy and respite. While I can't join you in this maintenance, I give you my full respect appreciate that this project and investment is testament to the trails that they provide us with. So stop yer winging and enjoy the ride!

[i]This is a city centre facility[/i]

No, that would be Broadmead or Lloyds Amphitheatre. This is city limits.

Relatively speaking, this is a city centre facility. Compare it to other cities and you have a load of trails that are far closer to the city centre than anywhere I can think of. The easy access alone means there must be easier trails developed first - as I said, this is no Welsh valley.

I'm sorry you weren't spoon fed information. Did you want someone with a clipboard at the tea hut? This is the C21st. Bristol MTB Club, Cheesy Riders, the Trails Group, 1SW etc etc all ran this a year ago. Do a search on 'Bristol trails development' and see the hits dated a year ago. Given all Mr Agreeable (and others) does and has done, your affront is misplaced. You currently use trails maintained by the good will of others (who know what is needed at a trailbuilding level) and don't like change that brings funding and year round improvement? Put yourself in context - you are not the target audience at this time.

it's more like a few OK sections of singletrack linked up with road, gravel tracks and muddy slogs along the edges of fields

That does sound like the Timberland Trail I've been riding in AC. My one is about 90% in woods with a short (400m?) section across grass and a gravel track just after the hole in the wall. There's certainly none along the edge of a field.

So, anyway, if you have to spend £200k on a bike trail, why not just harden/weatherproof the existing trail in AC at a grade a bit more than blue so that there's something for everyone in the wet? I think you say why here:-

There's also the problem that there is no reason for the current trails to attract further development or investment

So the money is only available for AC if the current trail is sanitised for beginners. The OP's original point.

Then you start contradicting yourself:-

They exist but they have fairly limited appeal

WHAT! Trails in AC having limited appeal? I thought the whole issue is that they are too popular and require too much maintenance.

and

I doubt this would ever happen if the new trails were designed specifically to appeal to a core audience of a couple of hundred experienced mountain bikers

I doubt that unless new trails were death-wish-on-a-stick black that they would only attract a few hundred riders (and I'm not suggesting that am I?)

-----------------------------

charliebigpotato - If you, and many others like you, showed a bit more restraint when it's wet the trails wouldn't need so much maintenance. I too have a family and have to seize the opportunities when I can. If it's raining on that special day I think "I won't go and make a mess of Leigh Woods or Ashton Court" and go somewhere a bit further. It's just self-centred and plain lazy.

don't like change that brings funding and year round improvement

For the last time, for AC it's not improvement, it's sanitising!

surely the bits between quarry & beggar bush lane and pre-bombhole are around a field?

ps: i'm all for it - the Timberland trail has only ever been tricky if ridden b4lls out - this will still be the case if Phil Saxena's previous experience is utilised, the hard stuff is all Gorge side (post Still closure - boohoo) and the potential for pump / jump and possible Still reopening is fabbo.

🙂

"why not just harden/weatherproof the existing trail in AC at a grade a bit more than blue"

Exactly how? It's too flat to ever be red. And £200k will not pay for 5km of hand-built rock gardens.

I do think it'll be a shame if the rooty sections of upper quarry are completely smoothed out particularly as they've had so much stone put in over the years that they do actually hold up ok even if muddy but on balance if the return is a flowy trail that's rideable all year then I can live with that.

Mr_a what is considered blue? Completely smooth like most of the hawthorns section or will there be rocks and roots still eg the first section on bbl from the hole in the wall back towards the AC main gate?

I'll miss the Upper Quarry trail if it changed significantly, proper Bristol riding and very different to most other spots I ride! I'd call that a red section if ridden at any pace. Actually, you need to be a reasonable rider to get much pace over it.

What is Blue? The Blue route at Whinlatter is OK, comparable with something like the Penhydd at Afan I would say. Obviously we dont have the change in elevation that either of those places has.

That does sound like the Timberland Trail I've been riding in AC. My one is about 90% in woods with a short (400m?) section across grass and a gravel track just after the hole in the wall. There's certainly none along the edge of a field.

Then you, like many of us, aren't riding the 'timberland trail' in AC! which has at least 2 sections that could only be described as riding along the edge of field, another that would be described as riding along the side of a road next to field, and then a fireroad climb. If you look at it, you'd be surprised how little single track there is on the 'official' trail compared to the sort of rides that most of us do in AC.

Ant, what are the plans for the other bits of trail in AC? Will they be actively hunted down and closed? Or will they remain fair weather options?

The old BB trail was riding well last year 😉

It annoys me when riders complain about being kept out of the loop, when I'm maintaining a website, a forum (hardly used), a mailing list, a Facebook page, a Twitter feed (alright, the last two are the same), and starting the odd thread on STW, not to mention our web address and my phone number are on signs at the start of the Ashton Court and 50 Acre trail.

Mr. A., get off your lazy arse and hand deliver leaflets through the door of every mountain biker in the Bristol area... 😉

Exactly how? It's too flat to ever be red

I agree that whilst AC lacks the change of elevation many trail centres posses and many people associate with red grade routes, I think it is quite technical in places (as previous two posts have said) and currently includes the red section of the new trail. And any way I didn't say "red" I said "more than blue" which was previously agreed on as "magenta".

And £200k will not pay for 5km of hand-built rock gardens

If the money available would build a blue trail I would imagine it would build a magenta trail as there would be less work flattening everything out and getting it level. And I never suggested 5 km of rock gardens, I want to keep the character of the current trail.

I don't build trails (sounds like you do) but to make it a bit more than blue I imagine you could compact gravel into the rooty sections, put some six inch rock steps in, leave some of the big rocks in but make the level up around them so only the tops protrude but they stay put, dig out the mud pools and fill with compacted rubble leaving a depression, a few hummocks of compacted dirt and rubble, maybe even the odd small tree trunk.

OK, so we may have to lose most of the muddy ruts. C'est la vie!

I don't build trails (sounds like you do) but to make it a bit more than blue I imagine you could compact gravel into the rooty sections, put some six inch rock steps in, leave some of the big rocks in but make the level up around them so only the tops protrude but they stay put, dig out the mud pools and fill with compacted rubble leaving a depression, a few hummocks of compacted dirt and rubble, maybe even the odd small tree trunk

Nah my work is limited to tiny ministrations of cheeky trails in my area - not re-surfacing and drainage needed to withstand hundreds of riders a week 🙂

What you describe sounds great, but a lot of hand-work. Whereas I think what can be done for the ££ is mostly machine-built which is why it tends toward being characterless. But they are going to be putting some hand-build in.

I'm basically in favour of the work even tho it sanitises the trail - some all weather trails are much needed. There are other "naturally" rooty trails in the vicinity of Bristol.

I think you'll find the zig zags are hilly.........

Well it was pretty boggy going last night and more typical of Bristol mud than it's been recently with the freezing ground. I'll definitely miss some of upper quarry if they take out/build over the roots but if it's got a nice flow to it and it's kept reasonably narrow, I really do think it's a price worth paying.

Boggy! it's a total mess I gave up after an hour at the weekend (OK riding whilst suffering with gastric flu is silly), it was bloody awful.

Blue/Red/"Magenta" (!!!) I think people get too hung up on colour grading of trails. It's delivering somewhere to ride your mountain bike all year round, close to the city centre. People should just be happy that in this time of austerity there's money to build things like this, go ride on them and get over themselves.

As the OP said, I don’t think much effort was made to consult local riders, I certainly didn’t hear anything about it until the recent announcement.

Not so, myself and the chairman of Bristol mountain bike club attended a consultation meeting in mid-2010 where Phil Saxena presented a few ideas and asked us for our input, including a long session brain storming and marking trails and routes on OS maps. Also present at the meeting were representatives from the uni mtb clubs, cheesy riders, bristol trails group and many others.

Also present at the meeting were representatives from the uni mtb clubs, cheesy riders, bristol trails group and many others.

Even MORE people who didn't text / write to / phone / e-mail / lead by the hand Mr longwayhome and invite him! Shocking! I suppose you call a broad cross section of the user community 'representative' and a 'consultation' as well? You'll tell me that there was someone listening as well!

*outraged*

Bristol MTB Club, Cheesy Riders, the Trails Group, 1SW etc etc all ran this a year ago

and

Not so, myself and the chairman of Bristol mountain bike club .... Also present at the meeting were representatives from the uni mtb clubs, cheesy riders, bristol trails group and many others.

Club, club, club, club, group, club, club. I can see it's the easy way to get in contact with people but not everyone who goes biking at LW/AC is in a club/group, or reads this forum (I only stated 6 months ago!)

People should just be happy that in this time of austerity there's money to build things like this

I'm quite happy that money is available to build things, I just don't want the it to be used to sanitise the existing AC, AS THE OP SAID AND I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG!

not everyone who goes biking at LW/AC is in a club/group, or reads this forum

Well then they are the ones who are willing to stay abreast of what is happening in the area by reading websites and getting involved. Really - how on earth do you think they should have advertised their intentions? If you don't read websites, don't join a club etc, how would you expect to find out? How do you find anything out? Do people normally knock at your door and tell you stuff? You said nobody was consulted, you were proven wrong - now you don't like who was consulted. Have you always been this special?

calm down, calm down..............personally I like the roots and rocks, it really surprised my mate from Wales just how tricky it is on his first trip over for Bikefest.

Goodbye High Rollers hello Larsons?

Having ridden blue routes with my son who's not "mad on riding", which i am dissapointed about, i was surprised at how good a blue route could be and if AC is made "all weather" it is a good thing in my book as last weekend was a bloody slog round AC and 50 acre.
Maybe, if longwayhome came out and joined in with some trail building you might find out whats happening around Bristol.
I don't profess to making every one of Mr Agreeables dig days but i try to make a few each year and if i'm struggling for time whilst out riding i at least drag a couple of barrow loads to the work site for the trail pixes to try and work some magic on a trail thats in a god awful state at the moment.

As pjt201 says, people are getting very hung up on the grading.

Setting aside the tedious debate as to what constitutes a red, blue or purple grade trail (search for "Thetford black run" if you want to lose the will to live), there seems to be an assumption that the trail in Ashton Court is going to be flattened, smoothed out and generally rendered not worth riding.

This isn't the case. The trail will change drastically, but if anything it will become less flat (one of the key aims of the redevelopment is to get a trail that drains, remember - it won't do this if it's all at ground level), more twisty, and faster to ride. It won't be as rooty as before (because roots tend to grow below ground level, and trails below ground level are a bugger to maintain), and the micro-design of the trail is going to be put in as the build happens (to give the trail builder some flexibility if inspiration strikes) but there will no doubt be some cool little features, be they jumps, rocks, logs or whatever.

The new trail is also going to feature, for the first time ever, a decent length downhill section, in New Barn Wood. I would have liked to see a full-on descent to the bottom of the estate, but that would involve bulldozing a mountain bike trail through the SSSI in Clarken Coombe (across from the Zig Zags), which unsurprisingly hasn't got the green light. There are other local spots with a decent bit of gradient that have trails we can currently ride and where there is scope for organised trail development in the future.

I imagine you could compact gravel into the rooty sections, put some six inch rock steps in, leave some of the big rocks in but make the level up around them so only the tops protrude but they stay put, dig out the mud pools and fill with compacted rubble leaving a depression, a few hummocks of compacted dirt and rubble, maybe even the odd small tree trunk.

This is more or less what we've been doing for the past few years. It doesn't make an all-weather trail, and it also leads to the trail widening as people ride round the repairs we've made. It we fill in a puddle but it collects a bit of standing water, people will ride round it. It's human nature, and no amount of tutting on internet forums will change it.

Same with riding in the wet. The places that tend to have a successful "no riding after rain" ethos are often in the US, in parts where there's a very definite rainy season. Here in the UK I suspect that if we stuck rigidly to this rule, some years we'd get just a few weeks where we weren't restricted to the turbo trainer

Ant, what are the plans for the other bits of trail in AC? Will they be actively hunted down and closed? Or will they remain fair weather options?

AC's policy has always been to close off-piste stuff - if an unofficial trail is still open it's generally because they haven't found it, or people have unblocked it. I think if there's a proper trail for people to ride, it will certainly be less of an issue as you won't get the same level of poaching. I remember trying to convince the estate manager that hardly anyone used the old singletrack along Beggar Bush Lane any more, just as three riders in quick succession went past us. Which made me feel a tad foolish.

In Leigh Woods, the land managers have been firmly advised not to do any wholesale trashing of the old trails for diplomatic reasons, and seem to have taken this on board.

TooTall - I get it now, MrAgreeable is good ([s]trailbuilder[/s]) cop and you're bad ([s]trailbuilder[/s]) cop.

You paraphrased me as

You said nobody was consulted

What I actually said was

I don’t think much effort was made to consult local riders

and also

Club, club, club, club, group, club, club. I can see it's the easy way to get in contact with people but not everyone who goes biking at LW/AC is in a club/group, or reads this forum

Can you see the similarity between "not much effort" and "the easy way" and the difference between the two of them and "nobody"?

MrAgreeable - Here's a suggestion then, seeing as it sounds like quite a few people as well as me like the quarry section, why not keep it as a red/magenta/more-than-blue loop off the main blue? If you don't want to ride it, simply turn left instead of right. OK you might have to do some drainage work but doesn't the terrain slope away from the quarry edge slightly?

Also will the new downhill red bit run into the current short downhill section just before the quarry loop? It's another of the really nice bits and it's on a slope so will drain well. Could it be included, mainly unchanged?

lwh - I just get really frustrated when people - and I lump you in this group - sound off about something you could have had an input in - but didn't. There are a few people on this forum who have told you they knew about the plans and consultation and some even participated. You didn't know about any of this, yet many people did - and you seem to think this isn't your problem. I can't understand who you think is at fault here and what they should have done for your wise words to have been duly noted. At what point do you take responsibility for your own (in)action?

What's all this talk about magenta trails??

I WANT CERISE TRAILS GODDAMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MrAgreeable - Here's a suggestion then, seeing as it sounds like quite a few people as well as me like the quarry section, why not keep it as a red/magenta/more-than-blue loop off the main blue? If you don't want to ride it, simply turn left instead of right. OK you might have to do some drainage work but doesn't the terrain slope away from the quarry edge slightly?

I think there are a few problems with this suggestion:

1. Where is the new trail going to go? [url= http://www.bristoltrailsgroup.com/maps/aston-court ]There isn't much space at all between the two arms of the quarry trail[/url] (they are less than 20 feet apart in places), the lower arm is bordered by SSSI to the South, and missing out this section would take out about 1/4 of the available trail length in Ashton Court.

2. Who's going to maintain your bit of trail? We're been working on it regularly for about 5 years and believe me, we've done more than "some" work on it to try and get it draining properly, but it just isn't happening. As I say, next time you're riding it, have a look at it - it is basically a long muddy rut. There is a drainage point on almost every corner but that is no substitute for a trail that's built properly in the first place.

Also will the new downhill red bit run into the current short downhill section just before the quarry loop? It's another of the really nice bits and it's on a slope so will drain well. Could it be included, mainly unchanged?

I suppose it could, but why, when there's a new red downhill section being built next to it, and a technical downhill (with jumps and drop-offs) that's four times as long over in 50 Acre Wood? And again, go and have a look at it. It is, to use a technical trail grading term, pretty knackered. The wheel-swallowing holes at the bottom are particularly fun to try and negotiate.

I appreciate that you want the trails to stay as they are, unchanged, but that's based on a flawed impression of them.

Behind the scenes, a lot of work has gone into them, but they are still deteriorating and lots of riders don't enjoy the results.

There is no money that will cover proper professional maintenance as there is no revenue stream from the trails, and whatever public money is left out there after the global financial wobble is aimed at new projects, not patching up tired old ones. So, in the meantime, a bunch of volunteers are stuck with the Forth Bridge-like task of repairing them again and again, so you can enjoy your nice summer rides, when we could be building new technical trails in more suitable places.

TooTall

There are a few people on this forum who have told you they knew about the plans and consultation and some even participated

Yes, BECAUSE THEY WERE IN CLUBS/GROUPS AND EASY TO CONTACT!

Please get the idea out of your head that I think or stated that NOBODY was at the consultation. Obviously there were people there but the majority seem to be from local clubs and groups (because they are easy to contact) and have a interest in making the trails all weather at any price.

There are others around who haven't heard about the plans (because we're not in a club or group) who like (bits of) Ashton Court as it is (when dry) and are a bit concerned about it being turned into a sanitised motorway.

Please read people's posts and take the time to understand them before you start ranting about something that wasn't said.

MrAgreeable - A genuine question as you seem to be the reasonable one. How much damage is done to the trails by riding them in good, dry conditions comapred to riding in the wet? Is this the root (sorry!) of your problem?

I, for one, like the challenge of a rooty, muddy, rutted slog fest. Obviously, I am weird. I've been riding these trails for 20+ years and they have evolved quite well. However, I suppose that change is inevitable. £400k will not go a long way though. The mud will prevail eventually, just give it a season or two. I just hope that Leigh Woods doesn't get '50-acre-wooded'. i.e. turned into a scene from the Somme, with most of the woodland felled and the cheeky trails destroyed.

There are others around who haven't heard about the plans (because we're not in a club or group) who like (bits of) Ashton Court as it is (when dry) and are a bit concerned about it being turned into a sanitised motorway.

As I say, our web address and my phone number are on laminated notices at the start of the Ashton Court and 50 Acre trail. The trails have also been through the planning process so the designs have been on the Council's website and also on display on site.

Just out of interest, how would you have gone about consulting? Who would you have spoken to, and in the likely event that you got a complete mish mash on conflicting ideas, whose opinion would you have given the most weight to?

This isn't a perfect solution - what is? But it's been planned to keep most users of the trail happy. There is no shortage of muddy blown-out trails either locally or nationally. What we do need is something more durable for the wet months of the year.

How much damage is done to the trails by riding them in good, dry conditions comapred to riding in the wet? Is this the root (sorry!) of your problem?

All use of the trails causes erosion - obviously this is accelerated in the wet. Unfortunately getting shirty about it with riders who just want to enjoy the trails (and may even prefer riding in the wet) is probably the least effective solution.

LWH, here's a wacky suggestion, join a club.
I know it's a strange idea but there's at least 5 clubs in Bristol, just for mountain bikers, that i know of, you don't have to turn up to an AGM every month, just join their forum or mailing list and you'd be kept in the loop as to whats happening in the City/Aston Court/Leigh Woods/50 Acre/etc then you can have your say in what happens to the trail in Bristol.

I just hope that Leigh Woods doesn't get '50-acre-wooded'. i.e. turned into a scene from the Somme, with most of the woodland felled and the cheeky trails destroyed.

The "cheeky" trails in 50 Acre are actually the old official trails - there may be scope to re-establish these a some point, now that we're not going to be constantly repairing the Ashton Court trail.

and are a bit concerned about it being turned into a sanitised motorway.

Me to, although Phil Saxena knows what he's doing.

. turned into a scene from the Somme, with most of the woodland felled and the cheeky trails destroyed.

The felled woodland does seem to help the trails dry out quicker presumably as they are more open to the wind / warmer air.

I could be talking bollocks though.

LWH, Ant's *personal* mobile phone number and the web address to the not ambiguously named but completely volunteer run "Bristol Trails Group" are at pretty much every trail head in AC, 50 Acre and Leigh Woods, and in numerous bike shops in the area. There's a facebook group. Google "bristol mountain bike trails" and BTG is third hit, after two BMBC links. What else, seriously, do you think could be done to keep you in the loop?

I understand that you're not a member of any organisations (I don't really ride with a 'club' either, as such, although admittedly I know many members of the riding community that are). But you're beginning to look a bit ridiculous. You've got to accept that if you don't make any effort to inform yourself, this sort of info is not going mysteriously beam itself into your brain. If you were vaguely interested in the state of the trails you may have, perhaps, just glanced at the BTG web site, surely?

Yet now you want to moan about things, saying you like things just as they are, apparently without considering the huge amount of work that goes into to keeping the trails in their current pitiful state. Without BTG you wouldn't be able to ride in AC at all by now, wet or dry. The current trails are the(failing) product of many hours of constant, selflessly given volunteer work that you frankly don't even seem to have noticed as you ride around AC. They are neither natural nor sustainable.

The felled woodland does seem to help the trails dry out quicker presumably as they are more open to the wind / warmer air.

I could be talking bollocks though.

No, that's spot-on. It wasn't done for that reason, but I reckon in the long term a more open canopy will benefit the trail there.

mmm, spent a bit too long writing that. should've just said what they all said ^

ianpv - Member

mmm, spent a bit too long writing that. should've just said what they all said ^

I thought it was good Ian, a verbal bullet to his brain. 😉