[Closed] Brakes - what's best in 2017?

Loved my Guide RSCs, really impressed by them. Only got rid due to the clearance with my particular bar/stem/top tube combo.
I've replaced them with Hope V4s, and on the 30m I've done with them, I'm not impressed. Will report back when I've got both working and needed in 😀

Hope e4 were lighter than most Shimano last time I looked and they're bloody excellent

To go against the usual STW trends, my old guides were better than my M8000, And the M8000 are better than the old XT.

I've just fitted some saints (replaced Hope X2) I'm writing this in braille as my eyeballs have fallen out.

They are bloody impressive (refresh or not)

I have some guide r brakes for sale with 200mm rotors

There is a lot to love about Guides.

The newer ones with the "bleeding edge" values are meant to be easier to bleed, as the name infers.

That's the only negative I can say about my second-hand Guide R's... Bleeding can be a bit... Frustrating.

My mates in the industry reckon Guide REs, the ones for electric bikes, are the absolute nuts, better than more expensive brakes. I'm getting a set for my full suspension bike.

They aren't kind about Hope, Formula or Magura.

Am I correct in saying Guide RE's are just Guide R levers with Code calipers?

Leaning towards a set of the Code RSCs at the moment. Although they are fairly new I'm hoping that SRAM have worked out any issues on the Guides over the past few years.

Have to say the price on the Guide RE is tempting though!

gweb - Member
Am I correct in saying Guide RE's are just Guide R levers with Code calipers?

I think that's right mate.

I've read good reviews on the guide re. I would have liked a set but they weren't an option on my new bike. Got guide r instead with 200/180 rotors and they're very powerful, but without being grabby. In an ideal world perhaps the guide rs / rsc have a better lever with a bearing pivot and swing link. I had the original guide rs and they were great too - but definitely not as strong as the new Guide with the bleeding edge calliper.

Are the Guide REs supposed to be better at maintaining their bite point, do we know?

That's the one moan I have about my Guide RS, levers pulling to bar way sooner than they should.

Bite point on my RSCs was consistently good.
I never had any trouble with mine, 100% reliable. And as a nice bonus, they run the pads quite a way from the disc, so are quite accomodating of small kicks in the disc.

I'd say definitely go for a better lever than the R. You can definitely feel the difference the swing link thing makes, it's a much nicer feel. Also, the Guide R lever is pressed rather than cast, and in my limited experience seem to be really weak as a result. I had a small stack and bent one of the levers by about 45 degrees on a demo bike I borrowed! Shop weren't surprised, just bent it back!

Agreed, guide r lever doesn't feel like a quality item.

Very happy with my RSC's

Sounds like there is an unusual level of consensus!

SRAM seems to be the way to go, RSC is probably worth the extra cash over the cheaper levers and from the reviews the Code calliper seems to give a noticeable power increase.

I was keen on the Code RSCs anyway so I think that's the way forward, and as I use SRAM shifters and dropper the cleaner cockpit is a bonus.

To through a virtual spanner on the works, I've just fitted a set of hope tech e4's on, replacing a set of 3 year old saints.

Hopes are amazing, easily the same if not more stopping power than the saints(when there were actually working that is) with so much lever control.
Very very happy with the hopes.

The saints were a nightmare, continously leaking fluid and contaminated the pads with no spare parts available to service them

Since the new shape Shimano levers came out 5? Years ago, I've only ever run Deore brakes, both at home & in the Alps. Never skipped a beat and plenty of power. Very simple to bleed too, and no nasty DOT fluid.

Zees don't need a refresh because they're just damn amazing brakes as they are for the price. Great stopping power, easy to bleed.

Very happy with my Hopes.

Being able to adjust bite & reach is great as is the modulation.

I'd say definitely go for a better lever than the R.

And it seems the Guide RE comes with the Guide R lever, which is disappointing.

Zees are probably my favourites still. The bite point can be temperamental - though unlike the Guides they do "pump up" back to where they should be.

Anyone else got experience with the Hope E4s? Particular interested if they are comparable to the Code's in power, i.e. a step up from XTs or Guides?

I live in Canada so parts are a little harder to get than SRAM, but I have fond memories of the Hopes I used to run 10-15 years ago.

I have been running XT M785s for quite a while, and have been very happy with them....wouldn't mind a little bit more power on long descents (currently using 203mm front & 180mm rear rotors).

Can't help but feel Zee and Saint are overdue for a refres

Improvements in disc brakes are pretty marginal with new models now and, unless there's a specific problem the new version addresses (eg bleeding on the Guides) then you're as likely to introduce a new issues. Not new model brakes likely means cheaper and easier to get spareas as well.

If you're already running 200/180 XT and want more power look at Zee or Saint or Hope V2. Guides and Hope E4 have a very different, progressive, feel to XT. What's the bike and riding? Not enough power isn't a common complaint for your current combo.

Like my Guide RSCs (conversely, on my ebike, as the REs hadn't been invented then)

Love my Guide ultimates 8)

Does the guide rs lever have a bite point adjuster?
I've pulled out a tiny rubber bung inside the lever and there is a torx in there.
Bled them on my month old bike last night and they are a lot better now.

To add to my above post, bought new Deores for my Alps trip last week to replace some ancient XT old style brakes. £33 per end from CRC. 203/180 rotors and hardly any wear on my Kevlar pads in 3 days hard & fast riding (1 wet).

Swapped my Guide RS for Hope E4 - both getting a good test in the UK / Alps.

Guides feel great and are powerful with more modulation than the Shimano (less than Hope), but are near disposable and the levers don't like the heat.

The Hope E4's are bombprooof, nice on the fly adjustment with loads of modulation but lack power. That said the modulation and lack of power on the front probably saved me from going over the bars in the Alps on at least one occasion.

I really rate the Hope E4 with Tech 3 lever. Lots of power, lots of modulation, keeps working at its best for an age and then is easy to bleed and service. The power comes on very differently to the 2 pot Shimano brakes - much more subtle so better control when it's greasy but it keeps stopping harder and harder as you squeeze more strongly.

I also have the previous M4 with Race Evo levers. The power and feel seems near identical but the Tech 3 lever has tool free reach adjust which I prefer and a bite point control that works really well, allowing you to easily get the set up just how you want. I think my M4s are now six years old and the E4s over three years old, both well used over that time.

Not cheap to buy but as brakes aren't something that have changed significantly in recent years they seem a very cost effective purchase as they just go on working as well as they did when new.

One other thing - is it possible for a brake running on mineral oil to have as much feedback at the lever as a brake using brake fluid? I wonder if the higher viscosity of the oil causes greater losses in the system and thus hides some of the feel coming back from the pads?

The Hope E4's are bombprooof, nice on the fly adjustment with loads of modulation but lack power.

Do they lack power or are you just not squeezing hard enough? Serious question!

Haha, no, plenty of power. All brakes feel powerful in the bike shop test car park / normal test trails. Very different hitting sustained downhill / technical sections in the Alps. Love the Hope E4 for my UK riding / rear, just seems to struggle on the front overseas. To be fair I don't think it was designed for that.

If you're already running 200/180 XT and want more power look at Zee or Saint or Hope V2. Guides and Hope E4 have a very different, progressive, feel to XT. What's the bike and riding? Not enough power isn't a common complaint for your current combo.

Currently riding a Chromag Rootdown with 160mm Lyric, and I live in Squamish so the riding is a good mix of everything 😀

That said I think that perhaps what I am looking for is not so much necessarily out and out power, but a more consistent feel especially at the bottom of long descents, where I feel the XTs sometimes struggle a little.

I'm on XTs, always have been, but this week in the Alps I struggled with holding on through the long descents. Sore hands every day!

Got to be honest I am massively suprised with how good my RSC's. Brilliant brakes...having run m8000's recently I found them pretty poor to be honest very binary compared to the guides. As for hope I had the latest version of the E4's and found them a bit meh, far from fit and forget. I wouldn't waste the money on them again I don't think

Hope E4's here. I'm a heavy chap riding a heavy bike. Single finger operation is more than adequate to summon up as much power as you could ever need.

On way back from les arc now. Group of 9.
I have xts and was struggling with power on the very steepest bits. I tried metal and resin. Metal marginally better. 2 other mates on xt had no worries but are lighter than me and one uses 2 fingers.
One of the girls uses xt but she is 55kg the other girl has guide rs and no bother but down to metal on rr pads by day 6 from literally new brakes.
One guy on m615 no bothers he's 95kg and a dh racer so doesn't drag them. The rest on guide rs and they all liked them.
I'm seriously considering those guide re's

I've got a bit of recent experience with brakes so thought I'd chip in too.

My progress through brakes is as follows;

On various bikes but mainly full suspension XC and later trail centre with peaks / moors riding etc.

Always 180f, 160r or whatever was closest for the given brakes.

Hope C2, when disk brakes where largely unheard of on bikes 🙂
Avid CR (I think)
Formula Oro K24
Shimano M785
Shimano Zee
Hope E4 + tech 3 levers (Fitted two weeks ago)

The Avids and Oros I'll dissmiss as they are probably miles away from anything nowadays.

When I first got the M785s they were awesome. Fit and forget. Until they didn't work properly thanks to the seals going.

Then I read around much like the OP is doing now and fell for more power with better modulation (and a great price) Zees.

Sure enough they felt great and had oodles of power. Modulation is tricky as it sort of feels like you have a lot of control but I now think it is just differing levels of violence. 😆

Basically they are tremendously powerful brakes but don't really give much in the way of 'feel' for the power they can produce.

This has led me to brake too hard on occasion and screw corners up.

On a downhill or maybe enduro type ride that is balls out then I think they'd be awesome. No suprise I guess as that is what they are designed for, but for a general ride and pootle with the odd bit of excitement I think they are simply too much brake.

I've recently started to play with n+1 that will be a bit more aggresive than the normal bike so have taken the oppertunity to put the Zees onto that and treat myself to some E4 with Tech 3 levers and floating disks.

Initially they took a lot of faffing. Cutting hose, bleeding, centralising, getting pistons to work together. This took a day before I took them on a local slow ride to bed the pads in.

Now they are bedded I am amazed with the power and feel of the brakes.

I can feather them or really squeeze for a stopping experiance similar to the Zees. The difference being the feel. Levers are very solid and I actually feel like I am pulling on a brake - much like you can feel the braking force through pedal input in a car.

Shimano are generally lacking in feel but work, and in the Zees case work very well.

For me this is the biggest difference, as the good ol advert says, power is nothing without control.

Any more comments or experiences?
At home now, some more data for people.
Bike is aeris 1.5 with 160 pikes with tf coil spring and fox coil rr in 150 setting. I weigh 85kg and I run 203 front and 180 rr. Bontrager dual ply frt tyre in g5 compound it's insanely sticky and dhr 3c rr. I found I wish I had a little more power on the front I was pulling it as hard as I could with one finger and that front tyre was still gripping.
Its gonna be zee or the guide RE.
Can anyone explain about the bleeding edge business. Will the RE have this I don't enjoy bleeding issues. I run a reverb and gx gears so a sram brake set would tidy up the bars.

Can anyone explain about the bleeding edge business. Will the RE have this I don't enjoy bleeding issues.

From what I can see online the RE does not come with the bleeding edge adapter. Not sure how much easier it makes it, I never had too much trouble with the old avid syringe bleed method... although I had lots of practice as they seemed to need bleeding all the bloody time!

For me, I think (possibly) easier bleeding and the better lever make it worth going for the Code RSCs despite the big price jump.

On the bleeding edge calipers on the Guides instead of having to remove a bleed screw you just take a rubber cap off and there's an adapter that pushes into the port. When you pull it out it just re-seals so you shouldn't lose fluid out of it.

On the bleeding edge calipers on the Guides instead of having to remove a bleed screw you just take a rubber cap off and there's an adapter that pushes into the port. When you pull it out it just re-seals so you shouldn't lose fluid out of it.

That does sound a fair bit easier. Is it still a screw in port on the lever?

Guide RE doesnt have the bleeding edge adapter, just the regular threaded port. I haven't had them long but like the feel and performance so far, can't comment on long term reliability.

I'd go for the Zee, as bleeding is really easy on Shimano brakes.

Will have ample power to slow down that beast of a bike. I love the feel of them as well, great modulation.

I have Guide Ultimates. Prefer them them to the Shimano M XT 785's on my other bike.

I haven't had to bleed the Guides yet - as they are Ultimates will they definitely be Bleeding Edge? They are about a year old. I believe they are the S4 calliper.

It depends how long you plan on keeping the brakes, I had Zees on my Aeris, used them for the Mega in 2015. They were awesome, used them again in 2016 and boiled the rear stuck behind a brake dragger, lever to the bar closely followed by the front.
After being boiled no amount of bleeding seems to get them to feel consistent. At that point they're 2 years so as they're unserviceable they're for the bin.
Went for Hope E4s this year which are lighter with plenty of power to slow down 100kg of me consistently when following brake draggers.
The Zees may have more power new but I don't like throwing brakes away every couple of years.

Lever on the Guides is still screw in at the lever end.

Any of the Guides with an S4 caliper is bleeding edge. The guide re doesn't have an S4 caliper though - it has a guide r lever and code caliper for more power again (as it's designed for e bikes).

I haven't tried an se yet - but imagine they must be really powerful. My guide rs couldn't possibly need any more power from what I've seen so far - they're on 200/180 discs just with standard pads at the moment.

Not done an entire uplift day yet though for a flat out test. My old Sram Guide RS on sintered pads with 160/160 discs were fine at BPW though last year.

Big Guide fan here, first Avid/SRAM brake I have ever really used with any success.

Light, easy to bleed, adjusters work well, good power, good control. Whats not to like?

I would say they are a decent improvement on the Hope E4's I wrecked after a summer in Canada.

Guides feel great and are powerful with more modulation than the Shimano (less than Hope), but are near disposable and the levers don't like the heat.

Explain the last part of the sentence?

Early ones had an issue in hot weather with the MC jamming up due to close tolerances. Not something I ever experienced.

I took the bike out for the first time with my new V4s fitted at the weekend. To sum up, they're like RSCs, but just a bit 'more' of everything -power and modulation. The feel is very similar though.
If I hadn't had clearance issues with the top tube I wouldn't have sold my Guides. The V4s are very, very good, but more finicky with setup. And a lot more expensive. They are, however, incredibly easy to bleed, especially if you've got a Mityvac!

Only complaint I've got is they do sing a bit on first application after periods of non use in the wet, which my Guides never did.

Guides feel great and are powerful with more modulation than the Shimano (less than Hope), but are near disposable and the levers don't like the heat.
Explain the last part of the sentence?

The levers don't like the heat part? I had this the other day...direct sunlight (or heat) causes the brake lever internals to swell and stops the lever from working. Well known issue in places like Texas...not in Scotland FFS! Supposedly redesigned internals on the 2017 model has sorted it. It is also possible to strip the lever and trim/sand the part that swells.

The levers don't like the heat part? I had this the other day...direct sunlight (or heat) causes the brake lever internals to swell and stops the lever from working. Well known issue in places like Texas...not in Scotland FFS! Supposedly redesigned internals on the 2017 model has sorted it. It is also possible to strip the lever and trim/sand the part that swells.

I assumed that was the fluid expanding in the heat. Happens to me if I leave the bike in the van on a hot day.

Saints on all my mountain bikes.

Never boiled in the Alps, on the trail bike or Dh bike.

Mate this year boiled his guides on his Dh bike in Pila. Bought some Zees out there. No boiling. Same mountain, same tracks.

If I was going for new brakes, I'd only be looking at ones with mineral oil.

Saints, with XTR levers (to bring the lever loads right down to help arm pump on long alpine descents) and asymmetric pads (metalic in one side, kelvar / organic in the other side). Job done 😆

The Guides I've used are ace, but the range is getting a bit bewildering, I'm not even sure what version they were. Not quite got the modulation and power of my beloved The Ones but not far off at all.

If I was going for new brakes, I'd only be looking at ones with mineral oil.

Just curious though - if mineral oil is better, why do car brakes use brake fluid?

My understanding was that water always gets into brakes and naturally sits at the caliper because it's denser than oil, so if the brake gets hot the water boils and you lose your braking control. Brake fluid absorbs the water and has to absorb a huge amount before the boiling point drops too low.

Had XTR, but after 3 warranty replacements, they were replaced with Hope E4/X2 (front rear) on 183mm rotors.

Utterly fabulous. Indescribably good feel after the XTRs and with plenty of power.

Just curious though - if mineral oil is better, why do car brakes use brake fluid?

This explains it all pretty well.

[url] http://www.epicbleedsolutions.com/blog/dot-brake-fluid-vs-mineral-oil [/url]

Another Guide fan here. Have RSC's on both my Stanton and Demo and both sets have been trouble free for 18 months othe than requiring pads. They're the older versions but are easy enough to bleed.