You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
A couple of weeks ago I had to take my new Bronson back to Bothy Bikes for them to return the Fox 34 forks to Mojo for a warranty issue. While I was up in Aviemore I thought I would get a ride in, so borrowed Bothy Bikes’ demo Bronson. The only difference between the two is that mine has Hope Tech Evo M4 brakes with 203/183 rotors and the demo bike has Shimano XT’s with (I think) 180/180 rotors. An interesting opportunity therefore to directly compare the two brakes on otherwise identical bikes so please excuse the long post.
I should state up front that I love Hope brakes and have used them for the last 6-7 years, but will try to be as objective as possible. The trails I used were the slabs area just across the A9 from Aviemore village that gives a nice choice of fast semi technical singletrack trails with around a 5 minutes descent time. The best way to do the comparison is to split it into two sections:
Power and Performance
Design and Build
[b]Power and Performance[/b]
Firstly forget about power. Which has more power and which comes out on top of the theoretical brake power tests in the mags is completely irrelevant. All you need to know is that both brakes are easily capable of locking up both ends using one finger braking.
How they deliver that power is quite different though. Anyone going from Hope to Shimano like me will find the Shimanos a bit grabby with not a huge amount of feedback with which to judge the lock up point. Going the other way round I can imagine a Shimano user at first finding the Hopes at first underpowered and a bit dead. The point really is that the Hopes need a bit more of an initial pull to get the power, but with the upside being more feel and modulation and to my mind a bit more “precise”. Very similar to jumping into a racing car compared to a normal road car – the initial impression is “where are the brakes?” as you have to give the pedal quite a shove to get the initial bite but ultimately lots of power and control. I am sure that with a longer ride I would have started to get more used to the Shimano characteristics.
The reach and bite point adjustability of the Hopes is better than the Shimanos and I personally love the feel of the Hope levers. One negative of the Hopes is that for some reason they don’t work well if you like to run them with the levers almost to the bars, but I didn't try this configuration with the Shimanos so I can't compare them in this respect
[b]Design and Build[/b]
I will state right up front that I love the engineered look of the Hope lever/reservoir units and callipers. Looks and added bling capability aside they are also very crash resistant, the levers can be easily bent back into shape if needed and Hope are legendary for spare parts and serviceability if needed. The floating rotors are also lovely in combination with colour matched Hope hubs. In comparison, the Shimano lever/reservoir units and callipers look merely functional, to my mid a bit ugly, and probably not as crash resistant, but of course these things have no impact on performance for 99.9% of the time. The Shimano rotors especially look pretty low rent.
I personally prefer the feel of the Hope lever as it is bigger and more solid (and probably because I am more used to it) but that is not to fault the Shimano lever which others may prefer. The Hope lever is much longer than the Shimano which could be a positive or negative from your point of view. One thing it does allow is for the reservoir to be mounted well inboard so there is enough room for both shifters and a Reverb remote mounted under the bar, outboard of the brake.
As for set up, I don't have any experience of bleeding the Shimanos, but the Hopes are dead easy just using a spanner and bleeding downwards. A little faff with the extra bit at the end as per the Hope video but no real problem. The Hope callipers are 4 pot compared to the Shimano 2 pot so are more of a fiddle to get properly set up and I ended up having 3 goes before they were right
[b]Conclusions[/b]
For me the Hopes are clear absolute winners because of their feel in use, build quality, adjustability and looks. However I accept that others will prefer the feel of the Shimanos as this is subjective personal preference. That is not saying that the Shimanos are anything less than brilliant brakes, but all things being equal, in my opinion the Hopes are better. All things are not equal however, because the Tech Evo M4's are more than 50% more expensive than the XT's. In fact if you take my set up with braided hoses and big floating rotors, the M4's are probably around double the price so it is equally clear that the Shimano brakes are far and away the best value for money
So the good news is that we have the choice of two different brakes with very different styles and equally brilliant in their own way. Which is best is just down to personal preference and priorities.
Own both, would agree with nearly all that. I'd say the Hope have enough effective adjustment that you can get them to feel just as (or very close to) immediate as the Shimano. The adjusters make a real difference (Shimano ones do little to nothing).
But, much as I like the Hopes (and Hope as a company, cust. service especially), the combination of value & performance of the Shimano stuff is unbeatable, I'd always advise people to buy Shimano.
[i]Which is best is just down to personal preference and priorities.[/i]
& that covers every subject about purchasing anything on this godforsaken forum.
That is one of those in depth posts I hope to find when I am researching my next bike related purchase. Nice one.
I find this review anything but objective.
I should state up front that I love Hope brakes
I will state right up front that I love the engineered look of the Hope lever/reservoir units and callipers.
The floating rotors are also lovely in combination with colour matched Hope hubs. In comparison, the Shimano lever/reservoir units and callipers look merely functional,[i] to my mid a bit ugly[/i], and [i]probably[/i] not as crash resistant,
I personally prefer the feel of the Hope lever as it is bigger and more solid (and probably because I am more used to it)
I've had both and liked them both. The cost difference is MASSIVE though.
so the review is based on 7 years on Hope v a mooch round on Shimano's?
i found hope and shimano (servo wave brakes) chalk and cheese
it almost like when we moved from cantis (Hope) to V-Brakes (Shimano)
Shimano changed the game
I think for me, the issue isn't about power between different brakes as they are much of a muchness. The main issues are servicing, parts availability and life. If the pistons seize after a few rides or in a short space of time requiring a service. How about setup of the calipers, fit and forget or fit and faff? That's why I'm saving my pennies to get rid of my Juicy 7's 😛
+1anything but objective
Interesting to read your opinion but it is not objective.
Last month, I took a set of Avid Elixir R, Hope Tech M4s and Formula The One to Nevis Range and tried each set on the DH track (on my HT).
Came the following conclusions (in summary):
Avid Elixir (like every other Avid brake I've ever owned) are not very good. No idea how I keep ending up with sets (actually, yes I do, it's because they're often sold for under £50 and I just can't say no!)
Hope Tech M4 - My second set of Tech M4s. Fairly powerful, nice to look at, usefully adjustable. But....weigh quite a bit, feel a wee bit wooden and suffer from brake fade sooner than i'd like (on 203mm!).
Formula The One - My first outing on Formula brakes. Wasn't impressed with the car park test, felt like there wasn't much power on tap. Oh how wrong I was. Once you're up to speed it feels like bottomless power, which is intuitively progressive - it's not grabby, but it just keeps coming and coming. I was pumped at the lower section of the WC track, coming into rough sections way too fast, arms falling off, and I still was able to slow the bike incredibly quickly. Something I couldn't so on the Avids or Hopes. Can't believe how powerful they are for the weight.
So, the Forumlas are on the bike. But, they are pretty expensive (have you seen how much rotors cost!)
My experience of Shimano brakes (not on this bike) is two sets of Saints and a set of SLX. I can't comment from a back-to-back perspective, but all were very capable, if a wee bit grabby (for me anyway, I'm never sure why being able to lock the wheels is high up on the list of priorities for people), which I struggled with from time to time on loose/wet surfaces where I had a habit of losing the front end. Think that's just due to my braking style, I don't drag brakes, I tend to be on them or off them.
It's hard to be objective about brakes because it's all about feel and we all like different things.
I think for me, the issue isn't about power between different brakes as they are much of a muchness. The main issues are servicing, parts availability and life.
This.
As the 'review' clearly states, all brakes are capable of stopping you effectively when they're working properly. The significant differences are price, reliability and lever feel. And for me, Shimanos win on all three of those metrics. YMMV etc
I'll agree with pretty much all that, and some of the posts made in response are also correct and its about choice, of course it is, plenty of folk buy Hope & plenty buy Shimano.
I would always buy HOPE ! Simple reason for me any way it works in the UK !
Headset, hubs, brakes,
I know hope have moved into the drivetrain department but I would never buy their running gear, for this I would always use SHIMANO.
I'm quite narrow minded in that respect, I won't use any other peddle engagement only SPD, others are available obviously but I know what I know and wouldn't sway too much from that, its a good review though and well written and if you are in the market and not sure then this is what the forum needs, honest reviews.
As a comparison my Nomad has Evo tech M4's 183 / 183
I rode an identical set up save for the forks and the front end braking was washy in comparison as the forks on the donor bike were under Specced in my opinion, this totally affected braking.
Not really objective, but interesting never the less.
Noticed you didn't make any comparison with weight of the above set ups, would have thought the Hope set up would be a fair bit heavier too.
I've got the last model Hope Minis on my bike (the black and silver ones).
I used to use Shimano, but I hated the looks. I wanted something that was beautifully CNC machined and shiney, and not made in a sweatshop by immigrants. I also like that fact the spares are available for Hope brakes, which means that when a seal or piston breaks after about 10 years use, I can buy a new one and spend hours and hours fitting it, rather than having to buy a whole new lever assembly for the princely sum of upto £25!
Initially I struggled with the performance of the Hopes, but after sessions with a Psychotherapist, I've managed to change my way of thinking and along with "slowing down" my riding, I now believe they are every bit as powerful as my old Shimanos.
I'd recommend them. Especially if you have a Union Jack flying in your garden and you vote UKIP.
I`ve always had Avids, never had a problem with Juicys until recently.
I have put an XT on the rear of the hardtail and its nice, loads of power etc but it doesn't have the progression and feel of the Avids.
Not ridden Hopes for long enough to form an opinion.
Did have some formulas and they were lovely, again loads of feel and huge power, but a little difficult at the time to get spares for.
I am undecided on my next set of brakes, I had made my mind up that I was going to get XT`s, now Im not so sure
Avid Elixir (like every other Avid brake I've ever owned) are not very good.
Respectfully disagree.
What do you mean by "not very good"?
The main issues are servicing, parts availability and life.
Reliability is surely the most important issue. Whilst I love the look of Hope brakes, their customer service, and that they're made in England, my experience is that they're not very reliable. Plus they're pretty much twice the cost of Shimano.
Respectfully disagree.What do you mean by "not very good"?
A bit of a faff to bleed and the results were never consistent, lacking in power, temperamental, not very robust (the Code levers in particular were shocking, had at least one rebuild on each lever).
I've had a couple of sets of Juicys, two sets of Codes and a set of Elixir R. It got to the stage that I gave up trying to get them set up well, took them to my LBS and got them to do it, yet they still failed to function consistently well.
Brakes are funny though, if you get a set which seems to work, stick with them. I had a set of Tech M4 years ago which just worked perfectly. Still regret selling them eventually, was never able to get the replacement set (the exact same brake) working as well.
Having had a set of elixir r's they were ad in many ways...
Lever feel
Snatch feel that may also be due to the stupid nobby nice too.
Not enough power
Going missing a bit during a long steep section
I have put an XT on the rear of the hardtail and its nice, loads of power etc but it doesn't have the progression and feel of the Avids.
I had the same experience with SLX. Nice enough but just don't feel as good as Avids to me. That being said I hate bleeding Avids and my bike's in the shop at the minute as I gave up with trying to do them 😆
Next set of brakes will probably be Formula. Quite like my K18 apart from crap pad life.
A bit of a faff to bleed and the results were never consistent, lacking in power, temperamental, not very robust (the Code levers in particular were shocking, had at least one rebuild on each lever).
Fair enough. Maybe I've had good luck with the Avids I've had (3 sets of Elixirs and 1 set of original Codes). Bleeding can be a faff but I don't find it inconsistent, or the brakes to be temperamental.
I think build quality is something Avid suffer from, going by the user reports, primarily the factory bleeds suck. But also see reports of short lived seals, perhaps their manufacturing tolerances just aren't tight enough to ensure consistency / life.
How they deliver that power is quite different though. Anyone going from Hope to Shimano like me will find the Shimanos a bit grabby with not a huge amount of feedback with which to judge the lock up point. Going the other way round I can imagine a[b] Shimano user at first finding the Hopes at first underpowered and a bit dead. [/b]
Yep.
so the review is based on 7 years on Hope v a mooch round on Shimano's?
+1
OP- do you work for hope or maybe have friends that work there?
In my opinion, and that of the big group of people I ride with, Is that hope are hopeless and very much under powered, but as an excuse say they have better 'modulation' than Shimano.
I love the modulation on my xts btw and would never go back to being hopeless on the brakes! 😆
ime hopes just require a more careful set up
once youve got it right though they are awesome
I remember getting brake fade on my minis in the alps many years ago before I knew how to bleed em proper(they live on my commuter now- 11 years old!), but mono 4s and now evo m4 races (which were the most fiddly to set up right) have been faultless from megavalnches to gravity enduros
I can easily 1 finger endo my with my evos and Im no lightweight
not ridden the latest shimanos but the ones I have ridden seemed to work fine just a bit more wooden than the hopes
I find this review anything but objective.
Not sure what you want he ends up giving an opinion and a reason
What did you want they are both excellent get which you want or some marketing blurb 😉
Yes they give an opinion but they give reasons YMMV
I use Hope for two reasons
1. Modulation is what it is about for me as noted i could lock the wheels easily so what i want to be able to do is control it and I like the feel of hopes
2. I can get parts for it and will be able to in 2020
my experience is that they're [hopes] not very reliable
BURN HIM 😉
Never had any problem beyond bleeding with mine and once had to sort out a stuckpiston - in fairness I had not used the bike for 6 months ish
My view - price or weight get Shimano
Feel and parts get Hope
Looks - who cares
Quick Question - while we're talking about Shimano brakes. I love my XTs but they are grabby at low speed tech. Can I adjust them to still have that awesome feel in all other situations AND work not be grabby.
I can easily 1 finger endo my with my evos and Im no lightweight
?
I can 1-finger endo with a set of wet rim brakes on my road bike but that doesn't mean I would swap my XT discs for Tiagra rim brakes... I love Hope for wheels/headsets, but it seems like even die-hard Hope fans can't really come up with reasons why Hope brakes are worth considering.
Wanderer - what pads are you using? IME sintered pads have less 'bite' than organic ones at low speed. Might help?
I like the look of Hope, the machining is nice to look at and feel but ironically, it's an inferior option- Hope can't forge parts like that so they cnc them, but it makes for a heavier and (for a given weight) weaker part. (I'm pretty sure their machining is designed to be really obvious, they certainly have the kit and the skill to make more refined parts... but the hardware to make small forgings costs megabucks so better to make their weakness a strength, clever).
But objectively, for the price of a Deore brake all you can do with Hope is buy a couple of sets of pads then squeeze them onto the rotor by hand, so I reckon Shimano have them beat on that level.
In conclusion, Formula.
Junkyard "How very dare you" its ALL about the looks !
Pusseywillow, what Bollox ! Your just ANTI Hope ! "A big group of people you ride with are obviously HOPE - Less
A big group, I'd call that 20 ? A small group = 5 ? a group = 10 so a big group must number 20 ? And not one if them has a good thing to say about hope brakes ?
Do you work for SHIMANO ? Or your friends ? Or family ?
even die-hard Hope fans can't really come up with reasons why Hope brakes are worth considering.
fair enough if you are talking about initial price
but i bought my last set of hopes s/h safe in the knowledge that I can get spares easily if they are knackered and will last me 10 years +
and they do look lovely
and if MTB wasnt all about looks and snobishness we'd all be riding canyons and on-ones and santa cruz, yeti etc would be out of business
Thnx Superficial.. I'll give the sintered pads a try
I've just sold a pair of HOPE TECH M4's on eBay, 4 years old, well used £304 for the pair !
I know that says more about eBay but it paid for my upgrade to tech 4 Evo's ?
Or downgrade depending on how big your riding group is !
There's a lot to be said to riding on your own !
I couldn't see past Hope for a long time.
Great looking kit that works well and is backed up by really good customer service
Then I bought a set of Saint M810's and I wondered why I had bothered running Hope brakes for so long.
Wife's bike has XT's and the spare / commuter has Deores. You just can't beat Shimano for the money
I like Hope, but mainly BBs and hubs. Hubs on 7 of 8 bikes. Gave up on the brakes, but by crikey they're pretty.
I like Shimano brakes and am now putting them on all of my bikes that get hard use. I'm kind of with Richmtb.
I dislike Avids for the incessant faff.
Which is best...
Which is [i]better[/i] if you're only talking about two.
Junkyard "How very dare you" its ALL about the looks !Pusseywillow, what Bollox ! Your just ANTI Hope ! "A big group of people you ride with are obviously HOPE - Less
A big group, I'd call that 20 ? A small group = 5 ? a group = 10 so a big group must number 20 ? And not one if them has a good thing to say about hope brakes ?
Do you work for SHIMANO ? Or your friends ? Or family ?
Please post more on this forum. Your inane ramblings are brilliant. 😆
OP - see if you can get a go on a set of Formula T1s. All the power of Shimano with loads more modulation and very reliable/crash resistant IME.
Hope can't forge parts like that so they cnc them, but it makes for a heavier and (for a given weight) weaker part.
The exact same could be said about their hubs - but how many hub manufacturers forge their hubs? Very very few. I'm not sure that is really very much of an issue.
How often do you see posts like some of the above?
'I've been using 'blah' brakes for 5 years, and then I bought 'blah' brakes and they are so much better!'
Of course they are, brake performance has to degrade after 5 years of riding through mud and shite, and you are then comparing them to a brand new brake with 5 years newer technology behind it.
FWIW, Avids are pish though.
I think the conclusion to this thread has to be - buy whatever you like, all have pro's and con's, just don't buy Avid, as they are shiiiiite!
I like the look of Hope, the machining is nice to look at and feel but ironically, it's an inferior option- Hope can't forge parts like that so they cnc them, but it makes for a heavier and (for a given weight) weaker part. (I'm pretty sure their machining is designed to be really obvious, they certainly have the kit and the skill to make more refined parts... but the hardware to make small forgings costs megabucks so better to make their weakness a strength, clever).But objectively, for the price of a Deore brake all you can do with Hope is buy a couple of sets of pads then squeeze them onto the rotor by hand, so I reckon Shimano have them beat on that level.
In conclusion, Formula.
Half a dozen Formula brakes have been owned within the family and they all pissed themselves and died. I've got a pair of C2's and two pairs of Mini's that are still going strong.
Also, the tensile strength of Hope's aluminium alloy blows the magnesium on your formula's out the water. How much that matters considering the differences between cnc and forging I don't know as I'm not an engineer.
Thirdly in regard to the shimanos, I have small hands and the hope adjusters do actually work properly. Whilst the shimano's don't and also happen to lack the feel that I get through the hopes.
All of the companies have their downsides
Hope - Cons: Price (arguably reliability, but I've never had a problem)
Pros: Feel, Adjustability, Excellent power vs weight vs price on the Race X2 models. (Eg a cheaper alternative to XTR)
Shimano - Cons: Adjustability, Feel
- Pros: Price, Reliability
Formula - Cons: Reliability, Price, Spare Parts Support
- Pros: Weight, Feel, Outright power on the newer models
I went with Hope as the pro's/con's suit my requirements.
Did someone say Formula?
😆
Carry on, as you were.
I stripped and rebuilt the lever on my 5 year old m4s. doddle.
Mmm, ive used shimano for a while, then i started having problems with a lack of power. 2 sets of deore, set of SLX and the rear of the saint M810. All seemed to suffer from contaminated pads, which turned out to be the hose joint leaking, and despite warranty replacements and assurances that the problem had been solved, the situation never improved and as a result my faith in shimano was dented somewhat. The last place i want doubts is the brakes. I've not suffered any problems since changing to Hope though, about 2 years all in. The shimano's seemed to last about 6 months, although 1 very early pair of Deores are still okay.
Also, the tensile strength of Hope's aluminium alloy blows the magnesium on your formula's out the water
I'm not an engineer.
Hmmm....
Tom_W1987 - MemberAlso, the tensile strength of Hope's aluminium alloy blows the magnesium forgings on your formula's out the water.
Eh, how much magnesium alloy do you think is in them?
mrmonkfinger - MemberThe exact same could be said about their hubs - but how many hub manufacturers forge their hubs? Very very few. I'm not sure that is really very much of an issue.
It's not an issue other than the weight and bulk of their brakes- my point is just that it's seen as a selling point when it's a low-performance option. Does look nice though.
(fwiw the Hope hubs are forged into a rough shape then machine cut/ finished, mix of the two)
Oh, and Formula parts? Common ones are available from CRC. Every bit for every half-recent model (Oro up) is available as a spare from Formula, and some bits for ancient models. They aren't cheap, mind, but they're easily available and ime you're unlikely to need them (I did have to buy a part for a 2007 Oro last year but I'll forgive them that...)
Mind you if I ever lose a The One bar bolt I don't think I'll be buying a replacement from Formula!
I'd love to try Hope as like the looks and the idea of perceived better feel. An old set of knackered elixir r have better feel than my latest Deore and SLX in the car part test. Find the Shimano a bit grabby and lacking feel on slow techy stuff, but fine on faster singletrack.
However, I just can't ignore the price of Shimano. Yes, Hope can be serviced with a supply of parts, but this still obviously costs money and you can buy a whole Deore caliper for what, £25?
Shimano brakes and feel is similar to how most folks lurch to halt in a hire car when using the brakes for the first time. Its just what you are used to. The current Shimano brakes take a little recalibration to get familiar with and then they have plenty of feel.
But as are talking about feel and looks it is just preference.
Northwind, CNC from billet is good enough for Brembo's Moto GP spec calipers. Maybe, just maybe...there's more to a brake than what process has been used to make the caliper.
If you're unlikely to need formula spare parts why did all of mine die? 5-6 dying compared to zero for our Hopes is going beyond being a fluke. I remember at least 2 K18s, 2 K24's and 1 set of early The Ones
I have just changed from Hope M4's to Shimano Zee's. First time I used the Zee's was at Antur Stiniog, I can honestly say that the Shimano's felt better after one run down, not fully bed in than my Hope's ever did.
I had to bleed the Shimano's before I rode the bike as the cables were far too long for my small bike, they were a breeze to bleed, and I love the fact that they're mineral oil, a lot less to worry about when bleeding.
I used to love my Hope's, but having to bleed them 3 times in the Alps this year due to loosing feel significantly ate into my riding time, and I was not happy about that! My rear brake had what I assume was an air bubble than no amount of bleeding seemed to help with.. their days were numbered after that!
How often do you see posts like some of the above?'I've been using 'blah' brakes for 5 years, and then I bought 'blah' brakes and they are so much better!'
Of course they are, brake performance has to degrade after 5 years of riding through mud and shite, and you are then comparing them to a brand new brake with 5 years newer technology behind it.
Are you suggesting I don't service my brakes?
I take acceptance to that remark!
Then again karen....a lot of people have been saying there are big problems with the zees.
My v2s feel as good as my mates zees anyhow.
Tom_W1987 - MemberMaybe, just maybe...there's more to a brake than what process has been used to make the caliper.
Of course there is 😕 But it is obviously a factor, it's the reason Hope master cylinders are relatively bulky and heavy. But this is still about the fact that people perceive it as a selling point, when there's better ways to do it.
Oh, incidentally the Brembo master cylinders and levers you mentioned are forged then machined. The calipers aren't really comparable to pushbike parts, different decision making process for much larger parts.
Had Hopes for years, then one day tried some of the new XT's... now all my bikes are running Shimano. My cheap deore's even laugh in the face of the Hope's.
Are you suggesting I don't service my brakes?I take acceptance to that remark!
Oops! Sorry Rich, not aimed at you!.
No only a couple of the callipers are forged then cnc'd. The rest are cnc'd from normal billet.
I dont understand the hate for avids. I bought a set of 2013 codes and they are the best brakes ive ever tried. Thats after a few hope tech pairs and shimano deores/xt and saint m820 on my other bike. They are super strong with lovely modulation and look good too 🙂
I've got a set of pre-Evo X2s which have been completely problem-free for the three years I've had them. I don't pretend they're the best brakes ever, but they work and buying from Hope supports (very) local industry. My mate is running a set of C2s and a set of M4s which he's had no problems with either.
The Avids I had before were more powerful, but howled like dying dogs and the back one wouldn't stay bled, which DJ's in Rammy reckoned was a common fault.
[quote=honourablegeorge]the combination of value & performance of the Shimano stuff is unbeatable, I'd always advise people to buy Shimano.
UNTIL you have to service them.
Which you will have to do. Sooner rather than later.
And find out that servicing Shimano brakes means buying new ones.
Also, don't use them in freezing conditions, or they will break (not brake) even faster. Same goes with their shifters.
TBH I'm sworn off of anything Shimano now, maybe apart from their cassettes. I still have a rear derailleur and shifter, that seems to be ok but the shifter was already replaced under warranty once (XTR).
As far as their brake effectiveness goes, they work fine when they are working, but no better than the Hopes. Anyone thinking they are magic is just seeing a 'new thing' placebo effect, or don't know how to set up the Hopes properly.
TBH I'm sworn off of anything Shimano now, maybe apart from their cassettes. I still have a real dérailleur and shifter, that seems to be ok but the shifter was already replaced under warranty once (XTR).
Funnily enough, the bloke in the LBS reckons Shimano shifters are more reliable than SRAM in the long term.
I've ridden both, both are good.
I spoke to a chap at Hope yesterday while he had my brakes on his desk in front of him, try doing that with Shimano. To Hope I'm a customer, to Shimano I'm a statistic.
But if someone wants to get wheels on the dirt at lowest possible entry cost, Shimano are fine.
nikk - MemberAnd find out that servicing Shimano brakes means buying new ones.
Also, don't use them in freezing conditions, or they will break (not brake) even faster
On the first- not true, you don't need to replace a whole brake, you can't buy individual parts but you can buy calipers or levers. Not ideal but the price of a Shimano caliper is around £25, which comes with a set of pads worth about a tenner- the price of a Hope caliper seal kit is £4, so it's only £10 difference. Likewise, an XT lever, £32 so not that massive much difference from a Hope lever rebuild kit for £7. Lost against the original spend.
On the second, not sure where you get this idea from, Shimano are no more vulnerable than anything else... Sub-zero conditions are hard on any brakes, lots of sticky debris and the seals get stiffer and harder with cold, but I used my old XTs in freezing conditions a lot more than most people would (I like winter) and they never missed a beat.
I do wonder if a lot of the this brake was rubbish the new brake i replaced it with is amazing.
Is due to the fact brakes a lot of the time, are fitted and the brake fluid isn't changed, until it has damaged the brake with age.. Not to mention having a lower boiling point, and loosing the lever feel.
Hardly surprising then a new brake feels better.
not sure where you get this idea from, Shimano are no more vulnerable than anything else... Sub-zero conditions are hard on any brakes, lots of sticky debris and the seals get stiffer and harder with cold, but I used my old XTs in freezing conditions a lot more than most people would (I like winter) and they never missed a beat.
Both my Shimanos broke on the same ride, freezing conditions (-5). Riding home down steep hills is fun with no brakes.
Also, the mineral oil fluid is rubbish, if you get it on your pads (as you will, because when the seals go, they spray a fine mist of it on them), the pads are a write off. You can't clean them with anything, believe me, I tried.
the price of a Shimano caliper is around £25
Shimano XTR M987 Disc Brake Caliper
NOW £75.99
RRP £94.99 | SAVE 20%
Shimano XT M785 Disc Brake Calliper
From £49.99
RRP £54.99 | SAVE 9%
Shimano Deore M575 Disc Brake Caliper
NOW £26.99
RRP £29.99 | SAVE 10%
I suppose it is if you want to use the bottom of the range version all the time. Not so hot if your 1 1/2 year old XT / XTR calipers blow a seal though, is it? £100 or £150, against £8? What would you choose? Even £54 versus £8 is a no brainer. And you need the new pads, coz the old ones will be toast if they have Shimano oil on them.
Also, ecologically, morally, and from an engineering / self sufficiency perspective, it is just b#~~###s! Make the frickin seal replacements available Shimano!
Mrs S has Hope Mono Minis.
I've got SLX.
The Hope are 8 years old and have been totally, utterly reliable.
Get bled once a year.
Never been off the bike. Used in all manner of shite.
The Shimano (6 years old, replaced Hopes on a stolen bike) are far more powerful and I prefer the feel, but they aren't as reliable.
The pistons semi-seize every winter and I have to take them off the bike, give them a fettle and put them back.
The rear piston is a little corroded and will never work properly again.
TBH, I'd be happy with either:
The Shimano feel better & are more powerful.
The Hopes are lighter, more reliable but have less power & feel.
However, Hope are made less than 20 miles from the front door.
I'd probably pay the extra & go for them again next time. 😐
Oh, not a Hope fanboi btw, the qr's & seat clamps are appalling - I wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy.
nikk - MemberI suppose it is if you want to use the bottom of the range version all the time. Not so hot if your 1 1/2 year old XT / XTR calipers blow a seal though, is it?
The seals are identical, so you buy a deore caliper and refit the seals to your expensive caliper. Think of it as really excessive packaging. Though, if your 1 and a half year old caliper pops a seal you'll get it fixed on warranty obviously so it's all a nonissue 😉
As for oil contamination, brake fluid contaminates pads very much the same. You actually can clean contaminated pads, or rather burn it off, but whether it's dot 4 or mineral oil, you're better to replace them.
I agree it's poor that they don't sell the seals separetely though, always been a frustration- but the real world impact isn't that big, and their simplified supply chain is one of the things that passes back savings to the RRP.
The seals are identical, so you buy a deore caliper and refit the seals to your expensive caliper. Think of it as really excessive packaging.
I think I'd rather stab myself with a fork though 🙂
As for oil contamination, brake fluid contaminates pads very much the same. You actually can clean contaminated pads, or rather burn it off, but whether it's dot 4 or mineral oil, you're better to replace them.
Nope, not from my experience. I have extensive experience with trying to clean Shimano pads of the oil... isopropyl, meths, soap, burning, heating, cooking, boiling, brake cleaner, sanding, filing... all tried, NONE work.
For DOT 4, brake cleaner works fine.
I agree it's poor that they don't sell the seals separetely though, always been a frustration
It is more than that for me now, it is a reason not to buy them, and a reason to vocally dissuade others from doing so.
but the real world impact isn't that big
Apart from non-functioning brakes that cost a lot to fix. Funnily enough, I am not keen on either of these things 😉
their simplified supply chain is one of the things that passes back savings to the RRP.
Their lack of parts availability is one of the things that passes cash back to Shimano. Apart from when I don't buy their crap because I hate stuff that goes wrong and can't be fixed.
nikk - MemberFor DOT 4, brake cleaner works fine.
With light contamination, sure. With bad contamination, nope- burning it off or giving it a proper soak in isopropyl works but that also works with mineral oil. (at the risk of offending- just because you couldn't get it to work doesn't make it impossible, I've succesfully cleaned oil-fouled pads- but I rarely bother cleaning either Dot or mineral oil contaminated pads if they're bad, it's not really worth the investment of time)
nikk - MemberI think I'd rather stab myself with a fork though
But seriously, why? It's very easy to do (and you'll be doing the exact same to the other caliper anyway). Oh, and you get a new piston to boot. I don't like the waste but that's the only drawback.
and lastly
nikk - Membercost a lot to fix.
But they don't- you're going round in circles, the price difference to fix blown caliper seals is about £10 in reality between Hope and Shimano, lever (unlikely to need done) is about £25 difference, and in both cases you also get useful spare parts (piston, spare lever body/blade in case of crash damage). So it's really not a big difference once you get past the misunderstanding about higher end calipers.
just because you couldn't get it to work doesn't make it impossible
Sure, I mean, no one is perfect. But I'd consider myself reasonably mechanically / technically minded, and can assure you I gave it more than my best shot on many occasions. I tried most things at least twice.
you're going round in circles, the price difference to fix blown caliper seals is about £10 in reality
But in reality, it is not. It is at best £54 versus £8.
If you have contaminated Shimano Pads, you'll need a new set in any case.
Also, experience shows you'll need them more than Hope seals. And the Shimano ones crap out in sub-zero temps - just at the point where cycling gets really fun again after all the wet.
So again I have to insist, Hope is better than Shimano in this instance. I would never buy Shimano brakes again, just totally and utterly sickened off them after years of howling brakes due to blown seals.
[quote=Rusty Spanner]not a Hope fanboi btw, the qr's & seat clamps are appalling
I am not a fan boy either... My new bike only has Hope brakes, I could have speced any other part in Hope as well, but went for various other bits (King, Cane Creek, Thompson, DT Swiss etc). I tend to be kinda obsessive about specing my parts. I would never spec everything in the same brand unless I thought it was the best at the price point - hence the mix/match approach. Very happy with everything I have chosen so far.
This idea that Shimano "crap out" in subzero temps, there's too many people on here that know otherwise for that to hold water, likewise the thing with the pad contamination. "Happened to me" isn't "will happen to you", especially when you add a dose of "Didn't happen to me".
weird, my 5 year old none series shimano (445) brakes, never "froze" in minus temps? must of been faulty?
they did "semi" seize after 3 years of no maintenance, easy fixed?
so the cheapest brakes shimano offer, never went wrong in any real way, only bled twice in 5 years, after 4 winters and about 3000+ miles and so many pads, ONLY changed them due to the pivots in the levers were starting to wear.
got some XT's now, and they are ace 🙂
Sounds like my Avid experience badbob.
YMMV...
still rather have shimano OR Hope, over Avids!
I've just replaced my Avid XX brakes with XTR (too good a deal to refuse and frankly listened to all the hype). The Shimanos are very powerful, very shiny and have dinky levers, but so far I think I prefer the feel of the Avids, which are a lot lighter and have been trouble free.
It's easy to make sweeping generalisations about brakes, and set up is clearly key, but personal taste and experience is a huge factor. My personal experience of Avids has been excellent, but I would never go near a Hayes, didn't get on with Martas and think that Hopes look home made (although I have them on my cross bike). First time for me with Shimanos, but I reckon I'll adapt to them.
Personally I'd put Shimano brakes alongside Tektro.
But comparing Shimano to Hope's! They're a totally different class. The Hope's make a mockery of the Shimano units.
As said before any brake will lock a wheel up but that's irrelevant it's about the delivery, adjustability, serviceability, reliability, spares availability..........
And the Hope sets win hands down plain to see.
If your budget doesn't allow for proper brakes then fine,
Shimano offer a cheap alternative but somehow have managed to take the old adage "buy shite, buy twice" as a positive. 😀
spares availability of hope parts are for a reason 😉
badbob - Member
spares availability of hope parts are for a reason
Yes to keep a product in good working order over years of service, like any other decent respectable company regardless of industry!
Would you buy a car with no spares availability?
Hopes look home made
Seriously?
spares availability of hope parts are for a reason
Can't say I've ever needed any - Avids on the other hand!
Had shimano on all our MTBs for at least 5 years. Never needed a spare part.
CaptainMainwaring - Do you work for Hope?
spectabilis - MemberPersonally I'd put Shimano brakes alongside Tektro.
But comparing Shimano to Hope's! They're a totally different class. The Hope's make a mockery of the Shimano units.As said before any brake will lock a wheel up but that's irrelevant it's about the delivery, adjustability, serviceability, reliability, spares availability..........
And the Hope sets win hands down plain to see.If your budget doesn't allow for proper brakes then fine,
Shimano offer a cheap alternative but somehow have managed to take the old adage "buy shite, buy twice" as a positive.
Personally I'd put Hope brakes alongside Tektro.
But comparing Hope to Shimano's! They're a totally different class. The Shimano's make a mockery of the Hope units.
As said before any brake will lock a wheel up but that's irrelevant it's about the delivery, adjustability, serviceability, reliability, spares availability..........
And the Shimano sets win hands down plain to see.
If your budget allows for expensive brakes then fine,
Hope offer an expensive alternative but somehow have managed to take the old adage "buy shite, buy twice" as a positive.
I've had most make of brake in the past few years. Just to show how personal something as clinical as a brake is, I hate Hope brakes as to me they look over engineered, and too big, I also found power to be lacking at 160mm rotors. I also don't like the new Shimanos as they're too on/off, but the Deore I could easily live with for £100 a set.
To make it even worse, I love Avid brakes. My X0 brakes feel amazing, modulate brilliantly, are super powerful and simple to bleed.
Magura Martas felt like the old Shimano XTs to me, the m770 series. Which I did really like.
Formula brakes just felt wooden to me, I'd lock the wheels without wanting to.
There. Spanner thrown in the works 😉
I totally understand others like different brakes, I just find it odd that people argue so vehemently about a brand that they pay money to use, not get paid to use. For £200 an end I'd expect the product to be nothing but excellent.