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Article on news today saying BPW are worried that they wont be able to reopen anytime soon for their uplift service as social distanceing makes it unviable.
Would now be the time to spend big and get a chairlift? They would clean up as the only uplift service that can operate.
Yeah I would much rather money got funnelled into a chairlift (if the numbers made sense) than keeping staff on the government payroll until (and if) an van uplift became feasible again.
Radical idea but folk could ride up the hill. Get a massive fleet of ebikes for folk that CBA to ride.
Agree big fleet of ebikes would be good but cant help feeling that a chairlift ticks all the boxes at the moment.
It's not so much the social distancing, it's the fact that we have to be 2ms apart. Whereas the rest of the world is 1m, it's killing everything
Hopefully it's just them trying to force things along a bit as I love the trails there. Not a fan of the management as they've made some decisions that don't put the riders first but the people we see on a visit (bar the grumpy, fat driver) are great. The trouble is that they're such a big facility that just keeping things on an even keel must be pretty expensive with no income. They said a few years ago a chairlift would be financially unsound as the running costs are so high but that was before they had mains electricity to the site. I know a price of £1m+ was mentioned just for installation.
I think they'll come out the other end fine, once they can open they'll be rammed for months as everyone makes up for lost riding time. It's the small operators like Cwmdown I fear for more.
They looked at uplifts when it first opened and the cost was millions. Rowan has said before that it would be 6 mil+ and might be fine on a summers day. But miserable for the six months of the year that it’s cold and wet and your 30 foot in the air getting blasted from all sides by the welsh wether). (Fine on a ski holiday when your in insulated waterproofs/gloves)
BPW is the biggest uplift site but if they say that’s to much money then the smaller sites have no chance.
I guess by the time they have built a chairlift hopefully we would have a vaccine so maybe wouldnt really help much.
I'm not even sure that an uplift service could run at 1m spacings profitably.
I would have thought that 6 million plus was the level of investment that a bigish business like BPW could consider.
Glenshee in Scotland have put a couple in recently - I struggle to believe thats the kind of money that they are splashing on them and the weather thing is doable with perspex covers I would have thought.
They just need to get opened for those who want to ride or push up. Dunno how far Wales is behind England in getting things going though.
He says smuggly with an ebike.
I'd guess you're looking at a few £mil to install a chairlift, not exactly a decision to make lightly. And by the time it's built, they'd probably be able to use the vans again...
Just open as soon as possible and forget the uplift just cycle up. I’m sure if they opened people would come.
It’s not so much the social distancing, it’s the fact that we have to be 2ms apart. Whereas the rest of the world is 1m, it’s killing everything
In terms of operating a van based uplift.....1m /2m is negligible. Not going to be workable at either. The business model relies on max occupancy of minimum vehicles..
Chairlift wouldn’t be able to run in lots of the winter winds I seem to remember reading.
A van /pick up with a length of rope behind it....?
There are a few shitty bikes parks in Bavaria that use the old drag lifts. Can be a bit tricky getting the hang of wedging the bar behind your arse, but doable.
Can't be that expensive to install a drag lift... Some of the farmers here do it using their tractors.
Chairlift wouldn’t be able to run in lots of the winter winds I seem to remember reading.
I think this is only based on ancient chairlifts - BPW isn't in that an extreme spot weather wise. Modern chairlifts are much more wind resistant.
And much more expensive...so costs go up and you still need huge numbers every day to pay back the costs and wash your face, let alone make any money.
I went to BPW years ago but cant really remember the topography... but here in my adopted homeland of Sweden alot of bike parks are ski places in winter, and use draglifts. Would that be an option? They are primarily used as A: cheaper and B: less effected by the wind and weather
the chairlift at innerleithen must be nearly ready by now, that must be a model they could copy
. https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/innerleithen-mountain-bike-chairlift-scheme-plan-lodged/.
Date: 14 June 2012 🤨
Second hand chair lift is where it’s at. Must be able to pick one up cheaper than the cost of a new one.
http://www.pro-alpin.com/en/second-hand/current-offers/chairlifts/lof-4/
I doubt they could afford any major construction works like this, they've put a lot into BPW and this year has been terrible for them, they lost so many weekends due to storms, then repaired the place only for this to hit, they were talking about putting in the chalets last i heard, but guessing that'll be delayed for a while now.
Not got a clue how they'll work around not being able to uplift folk via the vans, it's a hell of a climb to the top for folk to do in a day, you go to the likes of FoD or 417 and it's a lot easier to get to the top and more laps.
I've solved it! I'll take all the credit now......
Still miffed about GMBN using my insight on drop failures in a video about a week after I posted it on here, no internet points or ****-all!
One day I'll get the recognition I deserve 😀
Edit: One slight problem some moron would **** it up in this country.
the chairlift at innerleithen must be nearly ready by now
Yes, I’m amazed it was never built 🙄
Second hand chair lift is where it’s at.
Prices for them have gone mad though, everyone's buying them in lockdown.
😉
Couldn’t they run some open back trailers for riders to stand up in to be ferried up the hill and then the bikes be trailered you as normal. Couldn’t operate at normal capacity, but with that and riders getting up the hill under their own power would at least bring some revenue in?
Prices for them have gone mad though, everyone’s buying them in lockdown.
STW'ers are stockpiling them in their outbuildings/stables just in case.
A chain of old army land Rover trailers one bike and person per trailer
Only regular uplift place in Ireland (thegap.ie) is reopening this wed (10th June). They're operating the uplift on a group booking basis. You can book the van for the morning \ afternoon. Prob wouldn't work for BPW as their "fleet" are bigger trucks now from what I remember.
I always thought that a tow lift that ran up the fire road would be the best option (similar to button lifts in ski resorts) but I guess nobody has made a solution yet. Would certainly be a lot easier to install and probably cheaper to run and maintain (possibly cheaper than a van fleet).
BMCC's basic tractor uplift's probably more social-distance-compatible than vans...
But if people are worried about this, just wait til they reailse that the entire city of London doesn't work with social distancing.
Their converted army truck takes 28 people with a trailer for the same number of bikes, according to the Motorcraft conversions website. Can't imagine fitting that many people anywhere sufficiently distanced even with a 2nd trailer in front of the bikes one.
Just wait for the prices when they do open.
Vans with little compartments with individual/pairs of seats?
Expanding your idea northwind, ex-prison service trucks with individual seats/ rooms 😁
Surcharge to be let out at top for extra income generation
They need to buy some ex prisoner transport vans which have individual secure compartments
I like the drag liff idea but I imagine you would get a lot of people being dragged up the hillside.
There's been a few drag lift options like this
https://www.wideopenmountainbike.com/2014/05/protow-mtb-bike-uplift
Really you want to go as directly up the hill as possible, and avoid the risk of using the same track as the vans. This would mean building a new smooth path up, as well as buying and installing the equipment. Can't see it being cheap, and as Brick said, would need to be idiot proof.
E-bike riders get to go for free if they tow someone up each run.
I don't think any of these ideas would be cheap but for a successful business that doesn't seem to have an obvious way out, it seems a bit go big or go home?
It's not the only business though, bars, nightclubs, most highstreet retail will be borked if this 2m distancing must continue.
Oh and airlines, travel etc
ferme libert (where huckfest is) is a drag lift setup, I've been a couple of times. You just tuck the button between your legs then hop on your bike in one swift movement. Its easy to mess up the start a couple of times, but after that, very easy to stay on. fast, rarely any queue, and if you do mess up the button just shoots off leaving you to scoot back down to the bottom (same as snow sports). I'd rate it as easier than staying on a button lift for snowboarding
They should build a funicular
They should not build a funicular.
Something based on cycling must be able to adapt. The users each have the means to be self-sufficient!
Ok so all the ideas of chair lifts just go and ride up etc are great😁
but isn’t it just easier for them to buy a few thermo what’s check temperatures on arrival while booking in and then get everyone to ware face masks while In the vans my be book the same 16 in to every van number🤔
(if you keep removing it in the van the you get booted off)
also to be worn while getting food and drinks and set up some out side cover gazebos I guess.
I’ve only had a quick look and can’t see anything about what distance on the transport front but it was a quick look.
thismismof cause once wales lets free movement happen.
I don't see why they can't open up with a reduced a staff and let people ride up, I know plenty would definitely do it, ebike or not.
They're on NRW land and NRW have declared all their trails are closed. When the likes of Cwmcarn and Afan open up to bikes they may well be able to but they would still have to cover the costs of running the shop, cafe and having first aid cover on-site. I would hazard a guess that they will be making less of a loss with the site fully shut than if they had 50-60 people paying the £11 for riding up and down the hill. This may change with the furlough scheme shrinking soon but right now their choices are most likely full uplift or stay shut.
Im sure they will open up for people to ride up relatively soon, but unfortunately that wont touch the sides as above - less people paying less money overall, less in the shop, less in the cafe its all linked. You need uplift or it just becomes another trail centre that can support maybe a visitors centre but thats it.
Why less In the cafe?
There's cafes, restaurants and some pubs surviving all over the country using abit of initiative.
Take the tables away inside, spread them out outside, there's plenty of room.
Take away food only, if people want to ride there then they will obey the rules put in place to allow them to do so.
All staff to wear plastic face guards at check in/ cafe etc
Bike shops are open, so why any different to the shop there on site?
It wouldn't really be that hard, if they wanted to. But it's easier to stay in permanent closure and furlough everyone instead.
Paramedics are still operating as usual too.
You'd be a fool to go and have an accident, but that's the risk that people would have to accept if they went.
Plenty would
I don’t see why they can’t open up with a reduced a staff and let people ride up, I know plenty would definitely do it, ebike or not.
Would many people though? I know some would ride up, but they're a minority.
Take a random group of 4 mates car sharing from Swindon. The bread and butter of their business model.
1 is fit enough to do 10 climbs in a day
1 has an e-bike
2 would manage two climbs in the morning, one in the afternoon and then be knackered.
Of those 2 one puts on a brave face and agrees to do it anyway. One says Can't we just go to Afan?
So all 4 go to Afan instead.
Surely some form of rail track setup has got to be cheaper and more sustainable all year round than a chair lift? Would there be interest from non-cyclists to get up to the hill to walk/jog etc. when there wasn't enough demand from cyclists to fill each mini-cariage?
Would there be interest from non-cyclists to get up to the hill to walk/jog etc.
It's not really a tourist area though it is? People go there for the "Bike Park" bit, not the "Wales" bit. It could be Bike Park Surrey, Bike Park Birmingham or Bike Park Stoke. You'd need to develop something else there that would attract non-bikers that needed a chairlift. Like a dry ski slope, but there's already a few of those within driving ditance.
I was at Evo bike park, digne, France, last weekend, they have an uplift that runs four days a week with a big truck and bike trailer, similar to bpw.
On the first uplift, as per rules, there was only ten on the truck and everyone wore face masks. By the last run there was 18 on the truck, two on the trailer and not a single person with a mask on!
(This weekend at Montclar, ski station with lifts, there was hand lotion available and masks were only obligatory for a ten metre section when embarking onto the lift!)
TBH I'd just pedal up, if I was travelling to BPW, which I'm certainly not going to.
As for spunking £1m+ on a chairlift? This has been blathered on about since they set up the place, I can't see why they would bother TBH.
£1m would buy plenty of 16 seater transits and bike trailers, the forest roads already exist and as a system for getting people and bikes up the hill it's probably far less weather sensitive than a chairlift would be.
So all 4 go to Afan instead.
The unfit person will still be
climbing at Afan, just as steep and nothing like BPW descent wise.
That's not a viable alternative to most of the riders that visit BPW I should imagine.
If you pay £10 to ride BPW and only manage 2 climbs then that's £5 / descent. The same as the uplift cost.
£1m would buy plenty of 16 seater transits and bike trailers
What's the operating cost for a van, driver, maintenance, fuel? £50K/year minimum? Run 10 of those over a few years suddenly a chairlift starts to look good value.
The other issue is the 4 in the car can't social distance from the outset so the drive becomes 4 cars and much more expensive and less space in the car park.
I used to do the ride up when passing for work but as the costs went up and I only had a couple of hours, it made more sense to got to Cwmcarn.
What’s the operating cost for a van, driver, maintenance, fuel? £50K/year minimum?
What's the operating cost of a chairlift? Serious question.
Like a dry ski slope,
There used to be one on the other side of the valley (Pentrebach).
Didn't really work out.
You could still see where it was when i used to ride my Enduro bike where BPW is now.
Run 10 of those over a few years suddenly a chairlift starts to look good value.
Chairlifts aren't maintenance free, somebody needs to own the safety case for operating it...
Plus they're a damn sight harder to flip on via FB/gumtree/ebay/auto trader after you've had a few years use out of them...
Honestly the economics and liabilities that go with a chairlift for that particular location just don't stack up not when there are already two viable ways for punters to get to the top...
There used to be one on the other side of the valley (Pentrebach).
Didn’t really work out.
Yea, I was thinking that maybe if the infrastructure costs were shared between two businesses then it might be more viable. Unlike Fort William there just isn't going to be a tourism industry wanting to go up the hill just for the sake of it.
The unfit person will still be
climbing at Afan, just as steep and nothing like BPW descent wise.That’s not a viable alternative to most of the riders that visit BPW I should imagine.
Substitute Afan for anywhere in the FoD or South Wales with trails you deem suitable.
My point that was missed was that the people who go to BPW are by and large going to be in groups. and most groups are going to tend towards riding to the lowest common denominator.
The semi-pro solo rider on a training session is not the market BPW will be making money out of. It's the groups of weekend warriors.
If you pay £10 to ride BPW and only manage 2 climbs then that’s £5 / descent. The same as the uplift cost.
No one is going to drive to Wales to do 2 runs, however ganrr they are, and however good the trails are. Hence Afan, if you're going to drive up the M4 to Wales it may as well be for a days riding rather than 2x 4-minute runs.
Take a random group of 4 mates car sharing from Swindon.
Has guidence changed from two people only in one car sat on opposite corners with all the windows open unless they are all from the same household?
My point that was missed was that the people who go to BPW are by and large going to be in groups. and most groups are going to tend towards riding to the lowest common denominator.
The semi-pro solo rider on a training session is not the market BPW will be making money out of. It’s the groups of weekend warriors.
I've driven to BPW and winched solo for a day before, I reckon I'm closer to the weekend warrior end of the scale. It's not an actual mountain, you still get to ride the same trails, you just have to work a little more. 😉
The thing is the original linked beeb piece referenced BPW as a South Wales tourism business being hit hard by CV19 restrictions. One that currently has employees furloughed and basically no revenue coming in.
The solution favoured by half the posters so far seems to be errect a chairlift?
Being sensible BPW might be able to resume partial operation soonish, i.e. Only allow people to book pedal up and ebike slots via the website (no on the day transactions) most of the facilities would be closed, maybe open the toilets? and possibly allow people to buy inner tubes and essential spares (contact less only)? Otherwise you are responsible for sorting your own food/water/boo boos...
Turn up without a booking and you'll be turned away. No uplift in operation, minimal staff interaction, hand gel everywhere and any staff at the bottom merrily spraying disinfectant on everything in sight while wearing facemasks. It could be done.
The real question is could they resume partial operation, with a skeleton staff and still turn a profit? As soon as they take an employee off furlough they need revenue to pay them.
I'd even say it wouldn't be too cheeky for them to stick an extra £3-4 on their normal pedal up pass price to deal with the additional costs of lockdown operations and to try and offset their losses.
They might normally cater for cars full of tubby middle aged men dwelling along the M4 corridor, who between them will drop a good £200-250 in a day at BPW and expect to be driven up at least 10 times, but the current situation just isn't going to allow that. So can they make the next best available option work?
Open up for pedalling up, its quicker than the bus anyway!
thisisnotaspoon
SubscriberNo one is going to drive to Wales to do 2 runs, however ganrr they are, and however good the trails are.
Yeah, from the tourist/visitor point of view, or at least from mine, the big advantage of uplift is the sheer amount of riding you can do in a few days. I don't mind climbing but I don't want to spend most of my holiday doing it.
For the last few years we've done a weekly trip to do BPW, BMCC, FOD and some other stuff, without those uplifts I don't see me going back to south wales, as much as I like some of the pedalled riding down there.
So can they make the next best available option work
doubt it. Even at £20 per person its not enough to sustain the business
Opening up pedal only with limited staff won’t be viable, I bet it doesn’t even cover the cost of rent, never mind staffing and maintenance. If they did you would get a bunch of near locals and a few hardcore going. BPW rely on large numbers of people traveling from all over the country, sometimes for 5-6 hrs, do people really think folk will travel those distance to pay £8 to pedal up a hill 3-4 times?
As for a lift, no business would spunk £1m+ on something that, given the constant changes to regulations over covid, and the length of time it takes to get planning, then find a chairlift ( if you can) install it, train up staff etc, unless a chairlift had long term viability irrespective of covid, over vans. Which clearly it doesn’t yet or it would have been built.
Seems to me they are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. Let’s hope the regs change soon for them, or like the rest of the hospitality and tourism sector they get some proper government support.
do people really think folk will travel those distance to pay £8 to pedal up a hill 3-4 times?
YUp, i'm in.... but.. as you and I say, it won't cover the costs.
Even if they could open up the vans or install a chairlift, movement is still restricted. We are meant to be staying local (withing 5 miles) and visitors from England are being turned around, fined etc by the police.
do people really think folk will travel those distance to pay £8 to pedal up a hill 3-4 times?
I would and I live 3 hours away, I think I could actually do 3 in the morning and 3 in the afternoon and I'm quite unfit! Plus with pedal up, I prob wouldn't do as many top to bottom full runs, I'd end up riding the top half of the hill or bottom half and have less of a push or ride up, maybe even get more drops in this way and for some of the trails going all the way to the uplift queue is miles out of the way and then up and a hill!
It may be a good thing that will lead to the evolution of DH bikes that are more fun to ride uphill...
people may just need to accept that the luxuries of pre-corona (if you can call being stuck in a van with 14 other sweaty smelly blokes is a luxury) may be more expensive post corona.
this obviously applies to other elements of precorona socienty - restaurants, pubs, theatre etc etc.
i think teh pre-booked group/van idea is probably the best.
to be honest i`ll probably pay £20+ to ride up. (just because we dont have trails like it on teh south downs). Afan and other wales places are not the same riding at all. a 20k XC loop is not hte same as riding AC/DC. You will inevitably just session more bits rather than do full runs but this iOK.
“It may be a good thing that will lead to the evolution of DH bikes that are more fun to ride uphill…”
We already have them, they’re called enduro bikes. Or ebikes. But the BPW hill is bloody big if you want to do repeated laps and the trails descend fast, you’d never design the trails like this for a non-uplift centre.
Surely some form of rail track setup has got to be cheaper and more sustainable all year round than a chair lift? Would there be interest from non-cyclists to get up to the hill to walk/jog etc. when there wasn’t enough demand from cyclists to fill each mini-cariage?
Build one of them and you get to charge for people going down as a side benefit.
They should build a funicular
They should not build a funicular.
Whoosh
Helli drop would be good, probably no less viable than any of the other suggestions either.
Bungee cannon?
What’s the operating cost of a chairlift? Serious question
BPW have talked about a chair lift since before they opened, they foolishly put a pic of one on their FB when it was first announced and let people assume.
I've chatted to one of the drivers at BPW about it and to Darrel who runs Cwmdown a few times okay they're not exactly experts in it, and I'm certainly not but at one point many moon ago before BPW was even an idea Cwmcarn looked into it. I'm sure BPW have done a lot of work looking into it.
It's logistically difficult to install and run, but not impossible there are actually a couple of dozen lifts in the UK, mostly at dry ski places, they're shorter than BPW would need and the drag style so not well suits, but a few of the indoor places have proper chair lifts.
I'd guess the investment would be millions though, maybe Welsh Gov. will support them, they got the bulk of the £6m investment into MTBing in South Wales way-back-when. As above though, there was a huge dryski slope near to BPW with a big lift decades ago and it failed spectacularly.
I suspect it won't happen, it all seems very bleak at the moment for anything that needs lots of people to be in close proximity, but it won't be forever.
I think they'll open as soon as the other Welsh TCs do, it'll be fairly soon. Cwmcarn have started clearing the trails apparently, it'll be push/ride up only, the cafe will be take-away etc. It'll be interesting to see how the rest of Europe scales back social distancing in coming weeks and months because we'll no doubt do the same when the time it right.
Or ride back up to the top?
But the BPW hill is bloody big if you want to do repeated laps and the trails descend fast, you’d never design the trails like this for a non-uplift centre.
well yes. because no one expected the current situation. that said you can push up bits (popty ping/A470 etc) and lapping half /parts the park is easier than lapping full laps on a non ebike. i've never looked at lapping bits but then i've always been on teh uplift. riders will just use the park differently.
you are Ok anyway chief! i`ll give you a lift when it opens if you tow me up haha
and remember 50 shades the old gethin DH track used for non uplift related riding outside of race weekends.
Yes but Gethin was free to ride back then, well it was unless you count the chance of having your wallet stolen by the druggies that hung about in the car park in the evenings!
I think they’ll open as soon as the other Welsh TCs do, it’ll be fairly soon. Cwmcarn have started clearing the trails apparently, it’ll be push/ride up only, the cafe will be take-away etc.
It's pre-emptive work as there's no guarantee the 5 mile limit will be lifted anytime soon. It's more to appease the locals who are riding the trails anyway, it'll be a few weeks yet before the car park is full of people from further afield.