[Closed] Bogtrotters ride the Ben on a bank holiday!

Sanny - I know you have respect for the mountains - would you ride the Ben on a busy bank holiday?

Whilst there is hyperbole about the speed and danger of the riders its still inconsiderate and selfish not reasonable and responsible to have ridden there in the manner they did at that sort of level of traffic on the path. You should be passing walkers at near walking pace giving way to them on the narrow rocky sections.

I meet this thread with complete indifference. could they have chosen a better date/time? yes they could. did they come across as rude and obnoxious? not in the slightest. is this thread going to top 1000 posts by the end of today? yes more than likely!

Deleted - just pointless arguing with the truly selfish.

You should be passing walkers at near walking pace giving way to them on the narrow rocky sections.

They mostly were. Couple of bits where they were faster but not the 20+mph quoted on here. At no point were they yelling MOVE!!! (or STRAVA!!! 😉 ) it looked like they were ready to stop if the need arose and at a couple of points they did. I think they could have chosen a better time but maybe they didn't anticipate it would be quite that busy. Their behaviour and manner though were relatively responsible and polite.

Besides you're doing this "they MUST give way" argument again. It's not set in stone, it's a very grey area. Is it easier for a walker to take one step to the side or for the MTber to stop? If it's a narrow steep rocky path then (a), the walker steps over. If it's a nice sedate gradient on a smoother trail then (b), it's easier for the MTBer to stop and then get started again.

You know as well as I do that stopping and getting started again on a steep technical descent can be nearly impossible and in those instances, the "rule" of who gives way is far more blurred than you're making out.

stopping and getting started again on a steep technical descent can be nearly impossible

Are we expecting ascending hikers to know that? Seems faintly unreasonable to expect other people to make allowances for the limitations of your chosen conveyance and skillz 😉

"Besides you're doing this "they MUST give way" argument again. It's not set in stone,"

no your right - in england its set in stone with a you cant ride here. Stunts like this give people like that ammo to pursue similar rules in scotland. Its about maintaining our land access rules for future generations - the land access is one of the few things stopping me moving to new zealand.

Irresponsible tourists there caused land access rules to be tightened and permits to be ENFORCED ruthlessly !

in england its set in stone with a you cant ride here

For the most part, it's "you have no right to ride here and could in theory be sued by the landowner if you do". Which is somewhat different to "can't".

I think you'll find that the Bogtrotters are fairly well known for not giving a shit about access issues, or any subsequent problems that may ensue.

As long as they had a good time, Eh?

THIS
Bunch of irresponisible cocks who only think of themseleves.Sadly it is people like this that mean others legislate as they just dont give a shit what others think or how their behaviour affects others.
I once bumped into them up Rivi and ended up riding in a group with them as we were going the same way. we passed as stopped cyclist and a boggy asked if they were ok
"no" they shouted and they boggy just rode on. I asked if he said no thinking i might have misheard - He confirmed he said no and they just rode off. I stopped and helped - it weas winter and dark as well,

Much as I like SFB MTB would be better served if the Boggies just stopped ...not far short of irresponsible vandalism - famous pics of them churning up a footpath in winter mud ...pointless to debate as they dont care what others think.
I will not ride with them.

"[i]Are we expecting ascending hikers to know that?[/i]"

+1

"[i]If it's a narrow steep rocky path then (a), the walker steps over.[/i]"

It's not that simple. As the video shows, sometimes this forces walkers to step over to points where they have limited room to move. Why is it the default position that the more technical the terrain, the more the walker has to put themselves at risk because of a bike that's effectively using gravity to bully its way through? To me it seems little different to a car or van bullying bicycles into a verge or a hedge on a singletrack road, just because they're the ones with momentum.

*If* walkers voluntarily step into a safe position when you're descending and they do so well in advance of you passing, then fine, that's often what happens and it works. But in that video there appeared to be a lot of ploughing on under assumption.

Fundamentally it's the rider that makes the choice to descend a popular walking trail at peak time, and if they make the choice to continue with that when they knowingly can't or won't stop and therefore choose "walker gives way" as their default position then that makes them a dick IMO. You don't just go into a steep and technical section where you're potentially on the edge of control, where several people are walking up, on the assumption that people can and will move aside in time.

Also, there is an argument of MTFU and learn to trackstand or trials-hop or get started on steeper stuff. If all you can do is keep ploughing on, trusting in the suspension to see you through the rock garden, and you can't bring the bike under control, stick to bike-specific runs or get better at technical riding. If you can't start again, tough, get over it - it's not an excuse for riding like a dick.

Quite a while ago, when I was working as an Access Officer up in Scotland as the Land Reform Act came into force, I wrote an article for Singletrack on what it meant for mountain bikers.

The same applied then as to now, it's just basic common sense. If you're on your bike, consider avoiding a very busy walkers route on a bank holiday (especially one which is more likely to be used by less experiened tourists), if you're a dog walker, consider avoiding going along a route mainly used by mtb'ers on a day when they have an informal event.

It's really not rocket science is it? Think about where you're going, who else is likely to be affected by you being there, consider whether you're likely to cause excessive erosion if it's very wet and you're crossing boggy ground, and make an appropriate decision.

Most of all, responsible access tends to be the most enjoyable access 🙂 After all, surely most of us would prefer to not ride a path packed with walkers?

So just out of interest, what if that had been two fell runners, would the walkers have been as outraged..?

This is why the Sonwdon Ban works so well.

Sorry lads, but you must be mad riding the Ben on a Bank Holiday. Barking mad.

so lets turn it the other way - imagine the uproar if i took my hypothetical walking club out for a walk on glentress red or down the downhill track at fort william on a busy bank holiday sunday - responsible access says there is nothing anyone can do to stop me doing so.

i can just see the eruption on here on monday morning from the audi brigade at glentress

works both ways

responsible access says there is nothing anyone can do to stop me doing so.

In what sense would taking a large group hiking up a World Cup DH track on a weekend be "responsible"?

case point set and match !

I am at a loss to understand how this might be achieved. It would certainly be very expensive to implement. I suspect you are invoking the bogey man!

The LRA is either under review or soon to be under review (I think). While this one 'incident' will unlikely directly influence anything, it all adds to the sum of experience of outdoor users in Scotland. On this basis, the Government may decide to impose restrictions or tighten the wording of the LRA, in order to avoid grey areas such as riding against the tide of 1000+ walkers on a bank holiday on the busiest mountain in the country.

Restrictions have already been imposed (see camping at Loch Lomond) due to problems with irresponsible behavior. So it CAN happen. Besides, when Scotland's independent we'll have oodles and oodles of spare cash to pay for implementing restrictions 😉

what if that had been two fell runners, would the walkers have been as outraged..?

Fell runners would have been slower, lighter and without a foot of rigid bar sticking out either side of them and hence would have considerably diminished ability to actually hurt anyone. I expect they could still cause outrage simply by running straight at people and yelling 😉

I've just watched the video (skipped through good chunks) and read this thread whilst eating my lunch (Oxtail soup and chunky bread), it's made me laugh. So much anger and arrogance on both sides of the argument. I'm sure this isn't what the inventors of the internet had in mind. Chill out people. Either that or meet up in a car pack and have a good old fashioned real fight.

case point set and match !

Either we're playing different games or one of our points is not what the other thinks it is 🙂

In what sense would taking a large group hiking up a World Cup DH track on a weekend be "responsible"?

in the same sense that taking six slightly out of control mincing power rangers careering down a narrow rocky path populated by thousands of walkers on a bank holiday is 'responsible'

mrbaldyheads fistycuffs in the carpark suggestion gets my unwavering support.. 😀

In what sense would taking a large group hiking up a World Cup DH track on a weekend be "responsible"?

in the same sense that taking six slightly out of control mincing power rangers careering down a narrow rocky path populated by thousands of walkers on a bank holiday is 'responsible'

- im not sure i missed out whos side you were on , but this quotation sums it up for me.

Don't know what tangent this discussion is exploring now but having just watched the video I am mildly outraged.
I'm not scared to get up in ramblist's grills about access (even when I'm blatantly in the wrong) but this just takes the mickey.

There are simply too many people walking up the trail for it to be fun, responsible and safe and will surely have given hundreds of people a poor impression of MTBers.

I've ridden munroes, fells etc and always do so in a responsible way, this is just juvenile ego-massaging riding with no concern for others' safety or monutain biking's reputation.

- im not sure i missed out whos side you were on , but this quotation sums it up for me.

I'm on my side 🙂 I think probably the same one as you, roughly.

Besides you're doing this "they MUST give way" argument again. It's not set in stone, it's a very grey area. Is it easier for a walker to take one step to the side or for the MTber to stop? If it's a narrow steep rocky path then (a), the walker steps over. If it's a nice sedate gradient on a smoother trail then (b), it's easier for the MTBer to stop and then get started again.

You know as well as I do that stopping and getting started again on a steep technical descent can be nearly impossible and in those instances, the "rule" of who gives way is far more blurred than you're making out.

No - Its quite clear . Cyclists give way to walkers on narrow paths in Scotland. This includes stopping if required. this is why its mad to ride this path this busy.

Access rights extend to cycling. Cycling on hard surfaces, such as wide paths and tracks, causes few problems.[b] On narrow routes[/b], cycling may cause problems for other people, such as walkers and horse riders. [b]If[/b] this occurs, [b]dismount and walk[/b] until the path becomes suitable again. Do not endanger walkers and horse riders: give other users advance warning of your presence and[b] give way to them on a narrow path[/b]. Take care not to alarm farm animals, horses and wildlife.

http://www.outdooraccess-scotland.com/out-and-about/recreation-activities/cycling/

Access rights extend to cycling. Cycling on hard surfaces, such as wide paths and tracks, causes few problems. On narrow routes, cycling may cause problems for other people, such as walkers and horse riders. If this occurs, dismount and walk until the path becomes suitable again. [b]Do not endanger walkers and horse riders:[/b] give other users advance warning of your presence and give way to them on a narrow path. Take care not to alarm farm animals, horses and wildlife.

http://www.outdooraccess-scotland.com/out-and-about/recreation-activities/cycling/

Would it be wrong to say that the code is written with everyone in mind, including the inexperienced who need stricter rules. Is it possible that an experienced rider can pass walkers without dismounting or endangering them?

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"Would it be wrong to say that the code is written with everyone in mind, including the inexperienced who need stricter rules. Is it possible that an experienced rider can pass walkers without dismounting or endangering them? "

i agree - but then some folk need clear defined rules as they cannot interpret them sensibly

Is it possible that an experienced rider can pass walkers without dismounting or endangering them?

Yes - hence the IF in the above spiel. However at walking pace not blasting past

Ding, Ding - time out surely?

Plenty of opinions raised and a general consensus that these guys could have been/should have been more sensible/thoughtful. But hardly seems that they set out with an intention to harm or offend (plenty of chat and thank you's etc). Going on about it ad nauseam and personalising this further merely extends to cyber bullying and isn't really necessary. I am sure most of us are sensitive to other users but have transgressed on odd occasions. So those who cast the first stone.........?

If I'm planning on going somewhere that involves me weaving round loads of walkers / horse riders / dog walkers then I'll try and go when they will be at an absolute minimum. Usually early in the morning or later in the evening. Means I get to ride relatively unhindered and I don't piss off other trail users. If I do come across anyone else then I am as considerate as I can be and usually find this reciprocated.

Barnes is so far up his own arse he seldom sees daylight.

TJ, firstly, I'm not agreeing with riding down the Ben on a Bank Holiday and I don't necessarily agree that all of that riding was responsible, but it's worth bearing in mind that the guidance falls down as soon as a walker gives way to a cyclist.

In my experience of similar trails in the Lakes a majority of walkers will see you coming some way off and move off the trails before you would normally give way. In those circumstances it makes sense to carry on and effectively not give way. Though your guidance says you should stop and wait for the walkers to start walking again and pass you.

Incidentally, this seems to happen because most walkers aren't bothered by the few bikes they see, they recognise that it's easier all-round for them to move than for the cyclist to be interrupted and often they just want to watch someone doing something that they wouldn't have considered doing themselves. I have had one incidence (top of Great Gable) where I was heckled by a walker for dabbing. Generally people are genuinely interested in what I'm doing and in no way offended, even if they have moved out of my way. If they don't move, I'll either keep away from them, or stop, as the trail dictates.

A lot of the passes in that video seemed to be common-sense walker moves out of the way affairs, though others were a lot more debatable.

Not the smartest thing to have done TBH. I do not think that much thought went into it before hand either, well thought for others that is.

I personally think the code is so vague that a first year law student would be able to rip it apart without breaking sweat.
I didn't see anyone whose life was put in danger, except a few badly prepared walkers.
One walker got the hump out of how many...
Even the rider said it would have been better without the people, hardly a success for them.

Live and let live.

Storm in a tea-cup.

From the video they seemed pretty polite to the walkers. Personally I don't think they should have chosen such a busy day, but I guess they didn't realise that on the way up. As for anti-cyclist walkers, this makes no difference, they just hate us period.

Very funny thread here though: http://www.grough.co.uk/discussion/index.php?topic=690.0

How many of you have actually used that track on a weekend?

Although (to me) this thread seems more about a feud between TJ and SFB than the actual ride itself....

How many of you have actually used that track on a weekend?

I've come down it in winter at the WE (normally climb up the other side rather than walk up).

cinnamon_girl - Member

How many of you have actually used that track on a weekend?

Me

i did it going up the otherside as per foot flaps then came down on a septembers eve mid week - didnt see a soul !

wasnt as much fun as id imagined it to be 🙁 - bottom section was a hoot though !

Two undered 8)

I really can't understand anybody riding it at a weekend! I had absolutely no idea it would be full of 3 Peaks charity strollers.

If Snowdon can have a voluntary ban, then why can't Ben Nevis?

Edit: just remembered, when I walked the Yorkshire 3 Peaks, there were mtb'ers coming down those without helmets and protection. Very busy trails too.

But hardly seems that they set out with an intention to harm or offend

JY - that may well be the case historically but is there any evidence of that on the video?

Interesting link to the case for the defence above (for both sides).

Thank goodness they were wearing helmets!! 😉

"[i]Would it be wrong to say that the code is written with everyone in mind, including the inexperienced who need stricter rules. Is it possible that an experienced rider can pass walkers without dismounting or endangering them? [/i]"

This is the same argument as "speed limits and other moderately hard-to-enforce laws such as not using phones or eating pasties shouldn't apply to me because I'm an experienced driver". As a cyclist on the road I shouldn't be expected to jump onto the pavement if an "experienced" driver accidentally spills coffee in his lap and loses control; nor as a walker should I be expected to take evasive action if an "experienced" cyclist accidentally clips a pedal on a rock. Drivers are expected to eliminate the risk of coffee/pasties/phones leading to an incident that harms others and it seems reasonable to expect cyclists to adopt a similar approach by not barging through on sections where control is difficult and walkers are forced into exposed positions. The code is written "with everyone in mind" precisely because it should apply to everyone, including the idiots who think they're above it. The idea that "the inexperienced need stricter rules" seems bizarre, as if once you'd held your driving licence for five years you'd be allowed to drive everywhere with main beam on and a can of lager in your hand.

This is the same argument as "speed limits and other moderately hard-to-enforce laws such as not using phones or eating pasties shouldn't apply to me because I'm an experienced driver"

But no body did get hurt in that video right?

"[i]But no body did get hurt in that video right? [/i]"

Not really a pertinent criterion, though, is it? Again, a bit like justifying drink driving by saying you managed to get home without crashing into anything.

@16:15 that's great, you could get so much speed up there if there wasn't so many people in the way

let's hope the walkers haven't booby trapped the trails for the next lot of MTB'ers to descend in a more appropriately timed ride

paulrockliffe - Member
TJ, firstly, I'm not agreeing with riding down the Ben on a Bank Holiday and I don't necessarily agree that all of that riding was responsible, but it's worth bearing in mind that the guidance falls down as soon as a walker gives way to a cyclist.

In my experience of similar trails in the Lakes a majority of walkers will see you coming some way off and move off the trails before you would normally give way. In those circumstances it makes sense to carry on and effectively not give way. Though your guidance says you should stop and wait for the walkers to start walking again and pass you.

Incidentally, this seems to happen because most walkers aren't bothered by the few bikes they see, they recognise that it's easier all-round for them to move than for the cyclist to be interrupted and often they just want to watch someone doing something that they wouldn't have considered doing themselves. I have had one incidence (top of Great Gable) where I was heckled by a walker for dabbing. Generally people are genuinely interested in what I'm doing and in no way offended, even if they have moved out of my way. If they don't move, I'll either keep away from them, or stop, as the trail dictates.

A lot of the passes in that video seemed to be common-sense walker moves out of the way affairs, though others were a lot more debatable.

That is probably the most balanced view of all of this that I've read.

One thing no one has mentioned is that the 'gung ho' video of lads riding down the Ben has been edited, and what hasn't been seen are the sections of mild riding, perhaps even dismounting to give way to walkers... 😯 But don't let this get in the way of a good flaming.

Having spoken to those involved, I think they were a little naive not to have expected the crowds, which doubtless somewhat spoiled their enjoyment of the downhill, but I know them all to be unfailingly gentle, considerate people whom I trust to tell the truth, so when they say the walkers were overwhelmingly supportive I believe them, and since it's the impression made upon those folk which seems to trouble people on here most, I conclude it's really a matter of "nothing to see here"

You're right that I'm contemptuous of the nay-sayers on this forum but that doesn't reflect my attitude to fellow trail users, to whom I'm unfailingly polite, and I often take time as I bimble along cautiously at the back of the pack to check with the walkers I meet that they haven't been inconvenienced by the other riders.

I reiterate that the Bog Trotters are not 'mine' - I just happen to be one of them and for the most part they pay very little attention to anything I say and make their minds up for themselves 🙂

double post indicating that the forum bug I pointed out 2 years ago still isn't fixed 🙂 If you post at the last slot on a page (40, 50?), it appears not to have worked and it's some while before it pops up on a new page...

and what hasn't been seen are the sections of mild riding, perhaps even dismounting to give way to walkers

Or...just as likely, but ignored by you...bits where they rode with even less regard for walkers?

i have to agree that on a bank holiday its a bit naughty but perfectly legal.. some of the edges of the path have some nasty falls too tight for bike and walker. motor bikes and even landrovers have been up there so why not cycles

i have rode down ben nevis. i did it in May when it was quiet. i had no negativity from anybody. people were amazed and impressed it was possible..
here is my video.

^ Snappy title

There's probably at least 3 or 4 people scrutinising it as I type.

Good post Simon. Probably wont stop cyber bullies spouting off in ignorance though!!

Probably wont stop cyber bullies spouting off

I hardly think it bullying, it's more that they demonstrate how vacuous they are for our entertainment :o)

A few points to concider:
1 They started up at 5.30 am, it's quite possible they started when it was quiet and saw few people on the way up to worry about, only going against the flow coming down realising the amount of people coming the other way.
2 Comparing it to Snowdon, in the last three years I have took/been with roughly 45 riders on the descent down Rangers, all riding as fast as they can get down and all the walkers that have 'stepped aside' have to a one been polite and friendly, took pictures, video'd us. Never had a bad word said. On BT video all bar two were the same... A few people critising BT on this thread were among them...

IMO, in hindsite prob not the best day to do it but after arriving at the top I would attempt to ride back down and I think most bikers would. No one got hurt, all bar two walkers didn't seem that bothered... seems a lot of fuss about 'what if's'. And it's still on my tick list.

T

And it's still on my tick list.

So do I, and I still don't know what a natural trail is, something made them all... but some things are there to be done and the Ben is one, purely because it's the highest in England... ducks 🙂

purely because it's the highest in England... ducks

It's ALL man made. Can you think of another animal that would go all the way to the top of a hill just to come down again?

Simon, no argument from me, it doesn't look a fantastic descent but it is the highest hence the tick list...

Can you think of another animal that would go all the way to the top of a hill just to some down again?

Hands up who reads the Daily Mail!

SFB how many kittens have you killed this week you evil evil man 😉

Won't somebody 'Think of the children'

I astounded that anyone has had the audacity to liken mountain biking on a busy path to drink driving, ffs get a bloody grip.

Thing is, there's nothing wrong with drink driving if no one gets hurt.....

Watched the entire clip with baited breath expecting to see hoards of people diving out the way of a screaming herd of mountain-bikers.
Damn was I let down. What a beatup over nothing.
It looked a bit frustrating due to the people traffic but I don't think the riders placed anybody in any real danger other than themselves.
I don't mind a bit of mountain hiking from time to time, and stepping aside for 10 seconds to let a few bikers through is not a big deal really, whilst expecting them to stop and walk their bikes past me is a bit silly IMO.
Perhaps not being from this country I haven't become so overprotective over trail access as many of you.
In Aus if I didn't ride footpaths and illegal trails on crown land I wouldn't ride at all but I digress.

Watched some of it, particularly the 15:50-1620, couple of passes looked a bit iffy, difficult to tell from the vid tho. Surely asking the what the walkers thought would be better. 2 complaints out of lots and lots of walkers suggest they weren't riding heinously and TBH peterstuart (grough link) sounds like he's bike hater anyway so can maybe discount that one as my mum riding her shopper down the highstreet would probably have him diving for cover (and then diving for the pen and paper to write a complaint to the council).

Bad time to do it yep sure but hindsight and all that.

I wonder if some of you dont not realise how steep, narrow and rough that path ism with big falls in places.

Our right to roam / right of access in Scotland is dependent on behaving in a reasonable and responsible manner. YOu do not have the right to ride like they were doing in that clip. You MUST give way when you are on a bike

Access rights extend to cycling. Cycling on hard surfaces, such as wide paths and tracks, causes few problems. On narrow routes, cycling may cause problems for other people, such as walkers and horse riders. If this occurs, dismount and walk until the path becomes suitable again. Do not endanger walkers and horse riders: give other users advance warning of your presence and give way to them on a narrow path. Take care not to alarm farm animals, horses and wildlife.

http://www.outdooraccess-scotland.com/out-and-about/recreation-activities/cycling/

PLease stick with this. Riding the Ben is acceptable at times when its not busy. Its probably one of a very few tracks in Scotland that get busy enough for this to be an issue.

Because there are so few occasions that you would find this or any other path as busy that it is reasonable to expect bikers to avoid the busy times

Our right to roam / right of access in Scotland is dependent on behaving in a reasonable and responsible manner.

actually it isn't. Even if the law were to be changed (itself unlikely) Scotland is huge and largely empty (people were driven out by the English). Mostly there's no one to stop you going where you want, same as in England and Wales (and Ireland from the bit I rode, the Wicklow Way)

I think Simon has laid out the situation quite well in his posts on here.........how many more miles has this whinge-fest got left!?

simonfbarnes - Member

.....Mostly there's no one to stop you going where you want

But plenty to tell you to stop going where you want 😆

how many more miles has this whinge-fest got left!?

Oh this is a ten pager, at least 😀

Yes, yes, this bickering is all very well, but have we raised the subject of whether they were all wearing helmets? You can't really tell from the video

I believe there's plenty of evidence that the walkers would have given them more space if they were not wearing helmets.:)

A Bogtrotter on Ben Nevis last week:

I'm inclined to think that, having made a mistake of going up there when it was so unexpectedly (to them) busy, they would have been MORE disruptive if they had been pushing their bikes down as rider + bike are twice as wide!

Also it was illadvised of the walkers to turn up in such throngs which must have made the climb nightmarish on foot too, with faster walkers continually having to squeeze past and slower ones being always overtaken...

Simon - can I be the first to congratulate you on raising the bar on genius, satirical, comedy statements. That's without a doubt. the best I've ever read 😆