[Closed] Bloody Hell. After 10 years I've just Joined STW because of this article...

Woohoo! Good on you for writing.

The access article recently was also good, and many others (Sick! springs to mind). Quite like readers bike checks too.

I also quite like the increase in front page news articles, esp from EWS/DH races etc, but maybe it needs segregated so that the really powerful stuff like the articles you mention have prominence.

Have to admit, I love FGF (esp when what appeared to be a drug fuelled Barney was writing it), and I do like kit reviews in the mag too. At last they don't choose a 'winner', but give a fair balance of pros and cons.

I’ve always viewed the magazine as a necessary evil to keep the forum going.

I suspect you have that almost exactly the wrong way around

The Sick article was a high point, there's very much a gap in the market for a publication willing to call out companies who are doing it wrong - although that's a difficult spot when you rely on advertising revenue

What, the forum pays for the mag?

Sounds somewhat surprising.

PS. Can anyone tell me which issue the Rosset, Styhead, Langstrath, Stake route was in?

I suspect you have that almost exactly the wrong way around

Nah. Mark has said that without the mag he'd not be interested in just operating the forum.

What, the forum pays for the mag?

It'll be more symbiotic than that. The forum provides a market for advertisers, a place to advertise the mag and the links keep both going. Print publishing is difficult and expensive.

That pump track reminds me of the first 'skatepark' in Sunderland. The sense of disappointment after months of anticipation was almost too much for an emotional teenager to handle.

It's a good article. Took me right back to my schooldays and a bizarrely similar experience with our local council (I've commented under the article).
But I've always known STW was written by "my people", well ever since Chipps wrote for MTBPro (or whichever mag it was!)

@thegeneralist - pretty sure it’s the latest one, issue 137. Any questions on the route, just shout

Wow- link via the pump track stuff, this track will help youngsters ride on the roads?! Seriously?
Will they have some pedal cars hurtling around at the same time as them? 😆
https://www.stratford-herald.com/news/new-rec-track-will-help-youngsters-improve-cycle-skills-9207824/

issue 137.

Cok tesekkkur ederim 🙂

I love FGF (esp when what appeared to be a drug fuelled Barney was writing it).

Cheque's in the post, mate. 🙂

Cok tesekkkur ederim

rica ederim

I’ve always viewed the magazine as a necessary evil to keep the forum going. The forum that contains the real expertise…

So let's unpack this a bit...You think that Chipps and Mark and all the folk that've worked at Singletrack over the years decided back in 2001( 02 I can never remember) that in order to create and keep a forum going for a bunch of whiny cock-bags, they would buy a property, employ a whole bunch of folk, launch a magazine, sell advertising space, and all the associated issues that goes along with operating a real world company, and keep doing that for 20 or more years...la-la land really.

Every time some-one says "the real value is the forum" that's one more ignorant poster just making assumptions about how a company they clearly know nothing about makes it's money.

Not really. There are many who never read any of the magazine content. If you're amongst them then the real value is, indeed, in the forum.

Every time some-one says “the real value is the forum” that’s one more ignorant poster just making assumptions about how a company they clearly know nothing about makes it’s money.

Mark has said the website is the money-making part of the operation and effectively subsidises the print mag.

How much of the website traffic is to the forum might be a closely guarded secret though.

Well done OP, have a badge or something.

I think things like this are genuinely where STW can separate itself from the rest of the Mtb press (which is usually product blabber paid for by a sponsor). I like that it genuinely seems to support our sport. Go Hannah!

Fresh Goods Friday rules, may it never die.

Every time some-one says “the real value is the forum”

Value is a point-of-view. OP gets more from the forum than he does from the mag/website. Chipps et al get more value from people who are willing to continue giving cash.

then the real value is, indeed, in the forum.

On a personal interaction level I couldn't agree more, but then to go on and suggest that individual contribution to the forum has financial value is where it enters the world of fantastical thinking.

but then to go on and suggest that individual contribution to the forum has financial value is where it enters the world of fantastical thinking.

But what if the contribution to the forum increases post count, forum activity and thus increases it’s appeal to companies wishing to invest in adverts.

They may annoy a non logged in member but, adverts and the revenue they bring will surely contribute financially, therefore an individual posting does indeed have a direct link to revenue.

That old gripe about websites & digital products monetising UGC is a bit lame, I agree nickc.

But anyway, I don't think it's healthy for a digital publisher to be dependent on ad revenue generated by a thriving forum, because things change and forums can wither and die. And the publisher may be powerless to influence that.

Some might say this place is being increasingly dominated by a relatively small number of grumpy middle-aged men who don't really ride MTB any more, but still think they know it all. And that that's not very appealing for newcomers.

So I'd be a bit worried if the forum were my golden egg.

Nickc:

Every time some-one says “the real value is the forum” that’s one more ignorant poster just making assumptions about how a company they clearly know nothing about makes it’s money.

You've completely misunderstood me.
I'm not saying the forum is the real value to the business. I'm saying it's of value to me, which is a completely different thing.

Scuttler nailed it:

Value is a point-of-view. OP gets more from the forum than he does from the mag/website. Chipps et al get more value from people who are willing to continue giving cash.

On a personal interaction level I couldn’t agree more, but then to go on and suggest that individual contribution to the forum has financial value is where it enters the world of fantastical thinking.

Where did I say that?

I want more FGF, not less!

Maybe start doing a "Look what I found down the back of the sofa Monday" too?

Some might say this place is being increasingly dominated by a relatively small number of grumpy middle-aged men who don’t really ride MTB any more, but still think they know it all. And that that’s not very appealing for newcomers.

TBH where do old riders go e-singletrack 🙂

I liked that 2000'ads Judge Dredd actually aged along with the readership.

Some might say this place is being increasingly dominated by a relatively small number of grumpy middle-aged men who don’t really ride MTB

I rode at Afan this weekend.

grumpy middle-aged men

Were exactly who I saw on the trails and in the car park. I makes me wonder were the youth ride? The answer is for me at the local jump spot!

Maybe it's because I'm looking for it, but when I was 20 most commited mtbers looked 20. Now I'm 40+ they look 40+.

Some might say this place is being increasingly dominated by a relatively small number of grumpy middle-aged men who don’t really ride MTB any more, but still think they know it all. And that that’s not very appealing for newcomers.

So I’d be a bit worried if the forum were my golden egg.

I'm sure the last time we had a snap poll on folks ages the average forumite was in their late 30s. It wouldn't surprise me if that was now 40+. I guess the yoofs are elsewhere and probably not at many of the official trail centres either.

I reckon the OP just wanted access to the.... Members Forum
It's where it all goes on ☺️

grumpy middle-aged men who don’t really ride MTB any more, but still think they know it all.

That’s what I come here for.

The reality on the ground though is rather different – less rollers with summits, more ‘did I just roll over something?’.

i liked that bit.

I want more FGF, not less!

Maybe start doing a “Look what I found down the back of the sofa Monday” too?

Obsolete Parts Thursday

Wouldn't that just be the previous week's FGF?

@LAT I like your north-south auto translate.

Thanks for all the kind words, folks. I used to work in local and national government so I have a nerdy love of poking through paperwork and asking asking awkward questions. It’s just spotting the local stories like this in the first place that’s tricky - happy to have them sent my way!

In fact, this story was sent to me by a reader who said ‘I’m a gravel rider but this pump track offends me’, which I really should have put in the story 🙂

Like the mag a lot....the forum is ok. Increasingly less increasingly in most of what is typed, but I view that as a positive that my life is more in kilter than it was a year ot two ago.

In the mag :-

Amount of kit/bike review is about right.

Quirky on one articles are good

A few to many aspirational overseas bike tour articles for me.

Would like a few more UK related bike routes - I'd be happy if they were rehashed/refreshed. Or improved the ability to search back on the members part of the website...maybe with an interactive map. It's maybe already there but I'd be buggered if I can find it.

Routes is one area where I don't think a "magazine" format works anywhere near as well as a forum. I agree it would be much better if the Search function operated well though.

Actually, the one thing that would make the forum infinitely better for route planning is getting rid of the infernal time lock on threads...

I just don't understand why threads need to autolock after x months. It's so pointless. If a thread is redundant then it will die a natural death, no need to set an artificial time limit.

So frustrating when you do route searches and find a whole stack of short, locked threads which refer to each other in a rambling way. You then have to open a new bloody thread to ask one tiny snippet that you need that is missing. Which means there are now stack +1 threads all vaguely linked together for the next person to try to reconcile.

So much better if ( when appropriate) people could just add to the existing thread and have the authoritative source of info all in one place.

Could there not be a routes sticky. Would that even work?

I really enjoy reading some of the articles published on the website. Might even try a physical mag subscription at some point in the near future. The forum has always been a great source of advice, support and information on a vast multitude of subjects. It all works well together I think.

grumpy middle-aged men who don’t really ride MTB any more, but still think they know it all

So frustrating when you do route searches and find a whole stack of short, locked threads which refer to each other in a rambling way. You then have to open a new bloody thread to ask one tiny snippet that you need that is missing. Which means there are now stack +1 threads all vaguely linked together for the next person to try to reconcile.

TrainerRoad have their own forums, I think they use Discourse as the software, anyway it has a couple of really useful features regarding the above.

1. When you start a thread and give it a title the S/W suggests other threads that might be similar.

2. If you persist and the thread is a duplicate then there's a function that lets the moderator merge the two threads and close the duplicate.

Anyway Mark has, in the past, stated that they chose the current S/W as it integrated with other parts of the business.

grumpy middle-aged men

Unless most of you aspire to live past 90 and another sizeable proportion past 100 I'd say that's well off the mark. I'm one of the younger ones and still past the halfway point.

Could there not be a routes sticky. Would that even work?

A Routes sub-forum perhaps? (though that might be a dangerous road to start down)

I joined recently as well after years of contributing nothing, I guess I get £20 worth of value a year. I’m not very impressed by what I’ve bought although may be missing something. The digital magazine doesn’t have a very good viewer like Enduro mag for example, it would be nice to search the contents of magazines rather than downloading first, the Komoot routes thing, don’t appear to be many routes? The discounts section is a bit odd, the members bit is not very bike specific and the premier partners I’m unsure what discount I’m getting. Any chance to negotiate with specific bike accommodation would be great but I appreciate not easy to sort out.

And continue to do critical journalism like this which is for the greater good of cycling….

Umm, I think this article is the exception rather than the norm. Notably too, councils are not a sensitive topic for ad-funded publishers.

Does anyone really expect critical journalism, especially of the bike and its surrounding industries, from bike journalists? While I'd like to see more critical discussion of the industry, mags are of course part of the promotional culture merry-go round. Understandable given profit margins and need to pay staff and make a living, but I'd like to see more real critical investigations (perhaps there are some good under the radar stealth blogs by journalists?).

Wow- link via the pump track stuff, this track will help youngsters ride on the roads?! Seriously?
Will they have some pedal cars hurtling around at the same time as them? 😆
https://www.stratford-herald.com/news/new-rec-track-will-help-youngsters-improve-cycle-skills-9207824//blockquote >

@dezb I'm not sure why you're struggling to grasp that insufficient space allocation, poor design, zero consideration of cyclists and inappropriate build, all engineered to hit a minimum cost and tick maximum boxes is almost the perfect introduction to road cycling in the UK.
Ideally the track would just stop randomly then restart on the other side of the park, preferably interrupted by a no cycling sign but you can't have everything.

 

but I’d like to see more real critical investigations

Then buy newspapers or financial journals, or sign up for political reporters on Patreon or Go fund Me, or support Bellingcat or Tortoise Media, or The Medium because that's the right place to find those sorts of articles. STW is a magazine written about bicycles by people who like riding bicycles.

The youth don't pedal up hills

They are at the pump track or jump lines
They are at the uplift
They are cutting cheeky steep lines in the local woods.

They are not reading singletrack.

Does anyone really expect critical journalism,

Well no, I didn't, up until now. Which is why I never subscribed. But now that they have started to do so, o have given them my cash and told them about it so they realise there is a demand for this type of thing. ( Could of course be a demand of one person though 😉 )

Then buy newspapers or financial journals, or sign up for political reporters on Patreon or Go fund Me, or support Bellingcat or Tortoise Media, or The Medium because that’s the right place to find those sorts of articles.

Eh. We should buy financial journals in order to find articles explaining the nuances of how building substandard cycle tracks is counterproductive? I don't think so.

STW is a magazine written about bicycles by people who like riding bicycles.

Interesting choice of words and somewhat contradictory. It does get right to the heart of it though. Is it about bicycles or riding bicycles? I find the former extremely tedious, which is why I never subscribed. But the more they focus on the latter then the more of my cash they can have.

Could of course be a demand of one person though 😉

Or two!

My point wasn't a dig at STW per se, but bike journalism. @nickc, would you be against a few articles that pull no punches, looking at the structure of the bike industry, pressures and competition therein, and how it really works? Like you I enjoy riding bikes, articles with pretty photos, and want to be inspired, but I'd also be interested in other information and insights.

Interesting remark though, 'STW is a magazine written about bicycles by people who like riding bicycles.' I'd of thought many writers for bike magazines do see themselves as journalists. Maybe I'm wrong.

would you be against a few articles that pull no punches, looking at the structure of the bike industry, pressures and competition therein, and how it really works?

Forgive me for saying so, but hasn't Hannah done that recently? Certainly her article with Jordon (Sick! Bicycles) was pretty forthright, no?  And what d 'you think a "pulling no punches" expose of say; SRAM or Shimano would entail exactly? I mean yes, they're ruthless capitalist conglomerates, but that's hardly breaking news is it? And let's be clear here, I would imagine that the lawyers of an organisation like Specialized (who aren't exactly shy about flinging letters about) on finding an article of themselves in the pages of Singletrack "exposing the truth" would have zero compunction of tearing Singletrack to bits, truth or no...Independent magazines like Singletrack just don't have the resources to either do the leg work (unless a story like Sick! literally falls in their laps) or defend themselves against the risk being taken to court.

do see themselves as journalists. Maybe I’m wrong.

I think TBH, working for a tiny organisations like Singletrack you tend to end up being postie, writer, phone handler, guest wrangler, driver, mechanic, photo model, and chief bottle washer.

Eh. We should buy financial journals in order to find articles explaining the nuances of how building substandard cycle tracks is counterproductive? I don’t think so.

If you want to know the quarterly results of Shimano or SRAM, or want the inside scoop on the bike industry then it's BikeBiz you'll be wanting. But no, you're right, I was making a more nuanced point that Singletrack is an enthusiast's magazine, it's not going to do hard hitting journalism (there are other publications for that). But if you enjoy coming here, the articles engage you and the forum is a useful resource for you, than I think it's only fair to stump up for it.

 It does get right to the heart of it though. Is it about bicycles or riding bicycles? I find the former extremely tedious

If what I said was contradictory, then right back att'cha...You appear to be posting on one of the worlds most popular mountain bike forums...

Singletrack is an enthusiast’s magazine, it’s not going to do hard hitting journalism (there are other publications for that).

The bike industry is pretty small. I can't see the likes of the Woodward and Bernstein taking much interest but there are some smaller issues that bike enthusiasts might be interested in even if the rest of the world isn't. The links between some bike brands and the US gun lobby maybe, or the uselessness of some councils when it comes to cycling infrastructure.

The links between some bike brands and the US gun lobby maybe, or the uselessness of some councils when it comes to cycling infrastructure.

Both of which have been covered by Singletrack haven't they?

And what d ‘you think a “pulling no punches” expose of say; SRAM or Shimano would entail exactly? I mean yes, they’re ruthless capitalist conglomerates, but that’s hardly breaking news is it? And let’s be clear here, I would imagine that the lawyers of an organisation like Specialized (who aren’t exactly shy about flinging letters about) on finding an article of themselves in the pages of Singletrack “exposing the truth” would have zero compunction of tearing Singletrack to bits, truth or no…Independent magazines like Singletrack just don’t have the resources to either do the leg work (unless a story like Sick! literally falls in their laps) or defend themselves against the risk being taken to court.

Well, I would be interested in knowing more about how SRAM, Shimano and Fox maintain do their market positions, and your point about Specialized and lawyers piques my curiosity. Surely if magazines are not free to write truthful articles for fear of litigation, then this itself is an interesting topic? Likewise on resources, if there is a desire in various mtb-mag towers to do a little more critical work, I'd be interested in the factors that mitigate against this. I'm not close to the industry at all (media or bikes), but would be interested in either knowing more, or knowing why I don't know more (excuse the Rumsfeld!)

if there is a desire in various mtb-mag towers to do a little more critical work

That's a big assumption, and most-likely unfounded.

The best work in recent years has been on Pinkbike, with their recent survey of pro riders and it's resulting revelations about pay in particular.

I'm not sure there's much potential for Private Eye-style coverage of the bike industry anyway, much as I'd love to read it.

The advertising model that the MTB media depends on basically mitigates against the kind of critical institutional analysis that people have mentioned here.

That and low pay, untrained writers and a general conformity / lack of imagination about what MTB content could look like.

I’m not sure there’s much potential for Private Eye-style coverage of the bike industry anyway, much as I’d love to read it.

But so many posters on here and elsewhere are convinced that the industry is full of machiavellian manouvering and schemes to screw the poor punters out of all their cash.

Both of which have been covered by Singletrack haven’t they?

Well yes, that's the point. Any future exposés would need to be about things we don't know about already. I probably couldn't tell you what they are as I don't know about them already

Conversely I don't think I've opened an envelope from stw for about 18 months...

The best work in recent years has been on Pinkbike, with their recent survey of pro riders and it’s resulting revelations about pay in particular.

I found that fascinating….then they followed it up with a reader survey that was ‘what are you going to buy next’ market research shit.  Life really is a rollercoaster 😀

If what I said was contradictory, then right back att’cha…You appear to be posting on one of the worlds most popular mountain bike forums…

I think the nuances of what I was trying to say has been missed. Noun versus abstract noun. I'm not interested really in mountain bikes, I'm interested in mountain biking.

Essentially the Weeksy versus Scotroutes angle if you will 😉

I think the nuances of what I was trying to say has been missed

No not really I understood what you meant. mark it down to the difficulties of the written vs spoken word. For most people the two aren't necessarily separate, and I think people with views like yours are the minority opinion. Most folk who're interested in Mountain-biking have an interest in gear and new products (even if it's to deride them as rubbish) I think to be successful; a magazine has cover it all really from wilderness adventure stories (the features I look forward the most in each edition of the mag) to racing to bike parts and the "What's New?"  reviews and product launches.

I think that's probably hard enough to manage that in the time frame they have without also having to pay a journalist to do investigative work that may not publish for months and months (and may not publish at all)