[Closed] Bikepacking - couple of questions.

1. Are that many folk carrying lots of water on their back? I see lots of frame/fork mounted carrying solutions. Having said that, there's also the convenience of being able to drink from a (clean) tube without having to stop and/or fanny about with bottle cages. No different then from the overall move to hydration sacks. FWIW, I use a mix of either approach depending on what/how far I'm riding.

2. The truth is that fewer and fewer frames come with any sort of rack mount these days. I wrote in the "show me your adventure bike" thread that any bike will do. Soft luggage makes that possible. Plus, there's no getting away from the fact that racks weigh more than bags and can be subject to vibration damage on rough terrain. Again, I use all the solutions suggested depending on what/where I'm riding.

[url= https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8231/8540729384_ffe240aa09_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8231/8540729384_ffe240aa09_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/e1HthU ]P1050319[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/druidh2000/ ]Colin Cadden[/url], on Flickr

I've also found that the "in-line" saddle bags are better on narrow tracks, especially if you are coping with heather, bracken etc but I'm happy with panniers on longer road tours.

Since putting a hydration bladder in my frame bag, I've never wanted to carry anything on my back again - after 200 miles / 20hr+ rides it makes a big difference to comfort. Osprey magnetic clip on the stem keeps the bite valve easily in reach whilst riding.
I only put light stuff in a drybag strapped to my bars - no problems as the wider Jones H-bars keep it more stable.
Big seatpacks don't work with low saddles and big wheels! I've had a custom rack made for my fatbike that allows me to fit a 20L drybag.
Off to the arctic in February - will see how the theory works in practise!

1.
Yes.
Since the acceptance of the Camelback over the bottle, I'd say the majority do.

2.
So soft luggage is a result of the lack of rack mounts, rather than a choice made from direct comparison?

1) I don't carry water in my frame bag or on my back. Use cages, stem cell or fork cage.

2) Using a rack will always have a weight penalty, and a couple of clips and my bike is normal again, no tools like with a rack.

3) See above. Also while carrying similar loads a friend cracked his rack, a fabric harness won't do that.

If you get by fine with what "already" works then you're sorted. 😀

Johnny, I've never, ever broken a (Blackburn or Tubus) rack in 30 years of offroad use

Bags fall apart at the seams quite regularly, I've been through 3 Alpkit Gourdons in 10 years and I don't think you can make a better bag, I'm happy with it.

For bar/front bags, anyone notice the handling difference between mounting the weight on the frame rather than the bars?
Basic physics folks.
Sticking too much weight on your bars is horrible, full stop.
A minimalist front rack offers no disadvantages.

The "accepted wisdom" seems to have settled on a solution for now, but as with anything people come up with new ideas some of which work and become accepted others fall by the wayside.

1. I tend to have heavier, denser kit in the frame bag: stuff like tools. There are water bladders designed for use in frame bags BTW. For me a lot depends on what kit I'm taking as to where it ends up. My frame (Cotic Solaris) isn't intended for bikepacking so doesn't have multiple cage bosses - the one pair it does have sit too high for me to use with a partial frame bag, I've had to use some DMR frame clamps to fit one lower down. I've also a bottle holder attached to the front of the seat post.

2. If you are adding a handlebar harness to an existing bike then you definitely run in to the cable routing problems you describe. But if you were building up a bike explicitly for bikepacking then you'd take that in to account. There's also the fork mounted options like the Gorilla Cage and the Salsa Anything, only for light amounts of kit but keeps stuff low and out of the way.

3. A Wildcat Tiger seat harness weighs 195g whereas a rack system weighs around three times as much (both weights without a bag to hold whatever kit you are putting there). An advantage of a rack would be on FS bikes as there is a risk of saddle mounted bags coming in to contact with the rear wheel when the suspension compresses, a seat stay mounted rack would be a fixed distance away from the wheel.

Something that Scotroutes didn't mention is that bigger bags "encourage" you to take more gear. Having small in-line bags/harnesses encourages you to think about what you need to take rather than "just in case". Not too long ago, off-road touring articles tended to feature BOB trailers! I've only ever seen one of these "in the wild". Soft luggage doesn't require specific mount points so it will work with any bike, the only change usually required is helicopter tape to prevent rubbing of the frame.

If something works for you then there's no need to change just because "fashion" dictates otherwise.

[quote=Rusty Spanner ]
Basic physics folks.
Sticking too much weight on your bars is horrible, full stop.
A minimalist front rack offers no disadvantages.
I'm not sure there's that much difference in practice. I reckon [i]most [/i]folk, when bikepacking, aren't going completely balls-out, requiring handling finesse and dropping off the back of the saddle.

And bar bags work on a full range of suspension forks.
[quote=whitestone ]
An advantage of a rack would be on FS bikes as there is a risk of saddle mounted bags coming in to contact with the rear wheel when the suspension compresses, a seat stay mounted rack would be a fixed distance away from the wheel. But would be in danger of hitting your saddle on compression. 😆

Something that Scotroutes didn't mention is that bigger bags "encourage" you to take more gear. Having small in-line bags/harnesses encourages you to think about what you need to take rather than "just in case". Not too long ago, off-road touring articles tended to feature BOB trailers! I've only ever seen one of these "in the wild".

I think the Expedition module of the MBL Awards still assumes trailers. As you say, not very convenient in the UK and likely to encourage over-packing.

"Since the acceptance of the Camelback over the bottle, I'd say the majority do."

i must have missed the memo. \

its always funny watching someone dismantle their rucksacks before trying to fill up a camelback without getting everything soaked.....

while waiting for ever for them to do so when a bottle is much quicker and convienant to fill......

would be iinteresting to see a rack fitted on the front or rear of a number of my bikes.... the soft luggage fits them all .....

Ha ha! 😀

If you did use a rack on a FS then presumably you'd set it back far enough that that didn't happen.

I would imagine that leading groups requires more kit to be taken "just because" in the same way that when I've taken groups of kids walking on the hills you have to take a big first aid kit, a group shelter, etc. Is the trailer the off-road touring equivalent of the DofE 60 litre rucksack? 😆

@Rusty Spanner: How many off-road forks come with mount points for racks? With all this we are getting in to niche within a niche territory, manufacturers will only commit to design and make something if there's a market (a bit chicken and egg I know). Every manufacturing operation costs money which increases the final cost of the item, in an increasingly price fixated market there's few willing to take the risk. My Croix de Fer has full rack mounts but that's something of an exception and it is aimed at the CX/tourer/gravel market.

You mention bags disintegrating, but none of the bags on my set up are weight bearing. A Wildcat Tiger carries the rear bag and a bar harness supports the front bag, it puts no more stress on the bags than racks at a fraction of the weight and can be used on any of my bikes. Yes the bag on the bars makes some difference because you weight the steering but where are you fitting your rack that avoids that? And my front roll carries my sleeping kit which is typically 3lbs so it's not a huge weight anyway.

Bearbones is a pretty good representation of bike packing set ups and the majority of them appear to carry water on the bikes. I'm unusual in carrying it on my back. I do it because I like to keep my frame triangle clear for carrying and lifting.

Whitestone, thanks for the reply.

2. A minimalist front rack offers no disadvantage apart from a small weight penalty but numerous, easy to demonstrate advantages, which you acknowledge yourself.
What price fashion?

A Tubus Cosmo weighs 640g, can support way more than you'd take camping, won't break and is entirely practical on and off road.

Mr Hoppy, have you ever looked at a.carrier bag?
It bears weight.

Scotroutes - come on Colin, horrible bar mounted fairings ruin a bike.
You had a Darmah, you know the score.

A "practical cyclist" wouldn't keep buying and recommending bags that need replacing three times in 10 years (yes - I saw what you did) 😉

My tubus cosmos does a great job on my commuting bike

But when it weighs more than my whole luggage set up for my touring .... I know which im happier to lug up the hills....

Dismisses soft luggage as being faddy and fashion led.

Scotroutes - come on Colin, horrible bar mounted fairings ruin a bike.
You had a Darmah, you know the score.

Wont fit soft luggage because of fashion

, I've never, ever baroken a (Blackburn or Tubus) rack in 30 years of offroad use

But they do still weigh 800g+ each. Bar straps weigh nothing and saddle bag is the same material as a pannier so no hwavier for a given volume.

Bags fall apart at the seams quite regularly, I've been through 3 Alpkit Gourdons in 10 years and I don't think you can make a better bag, I'm happy with it.
For bar/front bags, anyone notice the handling difference between mounting the weight on the frame rather than the bars?
Basic physics folks.

A fork mout is going to be horrible off road as all that weight is moving to being unsprung, even a bar-harness on a rigid bike has some 'spring'. Basic physics.

Sticking too much weight on your bars is horrible, full stop.
A minimalist front rack offers no disadvantages.

other than adding an uneccecary 500g+ in weight and offering no advantages? The weight is still on the front of the bike, except a full drybag of sleeping bag, inflating mat and bivi bag probably weighs about the same as a metal rack and my empty panniers do, without making the bike 50cm wide at treestump/rock height on tight trails.

Whitestone, thanks for the reply.

2. A minimalist front rack offers no disadvantage apart from a small weight penalty but numerous, easy to demonstrate advantages, which you acknowledge yourself.
What price fashion?

A Tubus Cosmo weighs 640g, can support way more than you'd take camping, won't break and is entirely practical on and off road.

Happy new year folk, btw

Next weekend I'm doing the Bearbones winter event and will have 1200g of kit (including the harness and bag and yes I've weighed it) on the handlebars - this is assuming that temperatures are roughly the same as at present. I had a similar weight on the YD300 and didn't notice it unduly, yes it's different but not obtrusively so.

I'll probably have 2Kg of clothes in my seat pack which doesn't need a 640g bar to support it, the Tiger is more than enough.

But they do still weigh 800g+ each

No, nothing like it.

Tubus Cosmo - 797g
http://www.tubus.com/product.php?xn=11

[b]including[/b] fitting kit

Bikepacking doesn't have any rules. Just use what works for you.

but as I've not tried it

Well get out there, try it, and tell us how you get on?

The heaviest tubus there is eh? With some redundant fitting kit?

This is more representative, 535gm:

http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Blackburn-Expedition-1-Rear-Pannier-Rack_53196.htm?sku=145011&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=AdwordsProductAds&utm_campaign=Adwords&gclid=COy8lvDRi8oCFUsOwwodTpEM8g

I quoted the weight of the Cosmo as that had been mentioned previously.

No rack I've ever owned weighed/weighs as much either.

Don't like the EX1 though - at least not for panniers

Something about having what looks like random crap lashed all over your bike really offends something in me. I am not sure what though.

I'd rather have one bag the right shape than three the wrong shape. Just seems messy and faffy. But the point about weight is reasonable.

Hi Rusty. If I already had racks for the bikes then I would certainly have done this years touring trips with drybags on them rather than rather than getting dedicated soft luggage. As it was, the soft luggage worked out as the most convenient solution and it works really well. Haven't found recourse to use the barbag yet, mind.

Interested in the idea that a front rack might affect handling less than a bar bag. I'm not sure I can visualise the mechanics of this - any chance you could expand on the idea a bit please?

I'd say a lot of what's discussed here is just a more recent option, not accepted wisdom. That aside, imo,

1) Camelbacs aren't great but if you have light items in a frame bag you're packing badly. Dense or heaver items in the frame bag - weight low down. Camelbacks aren't a good idea if they can be avoided but they can be a good overflow space for easy-access clothing, food and water ie good for a garage raid if you're racing. They'd be the last luggage item I'd take though, depends on the ride. I always have some sort of overflow rucsac with me, a sea-2-summit pac-sac usually now.

2) Cable rub isn't an issue with a good bar set up. My front bag and harness is about a kilo loaded / complete, ~900g of kit and under 150g of load-carrier. I can add a Revelate bar bag to that with a similar ratio. A 500g rack is bad luggage to load ratio for lightweight touring. If I wanted to carry more yes I'd use a rack, but I'd then be likely to be limiting my riding to easier trails due to total weight, ie >3-4kg on the front rather than 1. Bar rolls are easy to cinch tight too so they don't rattle like a trad bar bag can ime. Strap-on bar bags rattle a bit though.
I do go through the odd dry bag but always have done, when hiking/climbing or on the bike. Easy to patch them.

For bar/front bags, anyone notice the handling difference between mounting the weight on the frame rather than the bars?
Basic physics folks.
Sticking too much weight on your bars is horrible, full stop.
A minimalist front rack offers no disadvantages.

It seems to be about weight and how low it is, and on the front, how close it is the the steering axis. Bar bags on klickfix attachments with a 100mm or so stem feel bad to me, a long swing arc for the weight in the bag. A short stem and tight bar roll can have a pretty minimal effect on steering. A rack is lower and probably in between the two in distance from the steering axis.

3) Yes, with you on that one. I use a seat pack for ~1-2kg of clothing but some of the huge packs I've seen swaying about behind riders look like a bad idea. Give me a good rack and bag over a huge seat pack. Never had an issue riding steep stuff high-posted with a small load in my seat pack. For easier riding give me the lighter seat pack every time unless it's a leisurely tour when I've found a rack-pack to be a more easy-accessed sort of bag.

In the rush to embrace the new, we're in danger of forgetting what already works.

Yes, like so many things that get used as the done-thing and then rejected. Depends on the individual though, or even just the mix of trip, bike, pace, attitude etc. How fast / technically capable you want to be, or not.
I don't think soft-packs can cover all your true touring needs. The idea that they're more durable is a myth too, I've worn through the straps of bags over the sort of distance that most long tours see. Easier to re-stitch a strap than weld a rack perhaps, neither's a tour-ender though.

The main appeal of soft packs as has been said is the adaptability to different bikes and the low weight. That's opened up touring to more riders, whatever we tend to call it, so has to be a good thing.

I though of using a bar roll and a rack with a dry pack lashed on top, leaving the frame free for bottles. Alpkit do a dry bag with rucksack straps so you could still carry it in an emergency, or for technical bits if you thought it would be an issue on the back. This would also be a handy setup for carrying the bike.

So you could subtract the weight of the frame bag from the rack in this setup, which isn't much granted. Having previously got polaris kit in a small rucksack you may not even need the bar bag.

In fact I quite like riding with a rucksack, especially if technical, so I would consider that too.

For those who use frame bags and seat packs, where do you carry water?

Riding with a loaded rucksack often isn't comfortable but it can make maneuvering easier in very tight stuff and can ease some hikey-bikey and bike carrying/lifting.

Many carry water on fork-mounted cages or in bar-mounted feedbags but, as has been.pointed out, you can fit a bladder into a frame bag

Oh - and just get out there and do.it. If you're happy with your kit, fine. It's not a fashion parade. However, do be open to trying other approaches, you never know what you could be missing.

I was a staunch anti-bivvyer until I tried it again recently.

If anyone is in the area and wants to try my stuff, just let me know

@molgrips I have a half-frame bag which takes up the top part of the triangle hence the need for me to have my bottle cage mounted lower. I've a Tefal Gizmo to let me mount another cage in front of the seat post. The seat post strap and the cage mount don't interfere with each other. That can give me up to 1.5 litres of water

I carry water in a down tube cage but use two elite 'mount anywhere' bosses to move it as far down as it'll go.

I used a revelate tangle which is a half frame bag for three years (about 20,000km) of off-road riding and have ordered a custom wildcat bag so I can use the extra space that was missed by the standard bag

That's on a medium frame. A friend with an xl frame can use a similar bag with both cages as standard.

I think frame bags are the best thing to come out of all this bike-packing stuff. Mine never leaves the bike. It's ~10 litres of almost weightless practicality in an otherwise useless space. Mine has a 1.5 litre bladder (bit of a faff to fill, but it's enough to last a day) and room for food, tools, lights, a jacket, wallet and phone, keys etc. I've never liked riding with a backpack. With a frame bag you forget it's there.

As for all the other bikepacking stuff- use whatever suits your bike and your ride. Having more choice is always a good thing but there's no one setup that is right for everything!

Same bike; different adventure:
[IMG] [/IMG]
[IMG] [/IMG]

Riding with a loaded rucksack often isn't comfortable

Well as I said, I've done it a lot and it doesn't bother me as long as it doesn't get too heavy.

My new fork has Salsa Anything bosses, so I might put water down there.

But yes - as said, you can do it any way you like. My first bikepacking trip was a week when I was in college in 1993. I had a cheap day rucksack, a £450 bike, a borrowed sleeping bag, a trangia and we shared the tent between us. And we had a good time.

I hope SaxonRider is reading this!

Thanks for all the replies. 🙂

I'm going to try a frame bag, I think, especially if I can get a bladder in there.

Trail rat, nothing to do with fashion, it's the handling I don't like with too much weight attached to the bars.
I appreciate that others may not find this an issue.