Here's the abridged narrative:
My bike was traded in against a new bike. The new bike didn't fit and had to go back. After weeks of asking where my old bike was, the retailer (who still hasn't refunded me the £4k I've paid him) admitted my bike had been stolen weeks previously.
Has anyone been in a similar situation? How did you get it resolved?
The retailer won't tell me what the insurers paid him for it. Trade in value was less than market value and there's no way I can replace the bike for the trade in value with a similar second hand bike.
Surely no different to your bike being sold, which is why it was accepted as a trade in I imagine.
The fact it has been stolen seems irrelevant.
Why is he not supplying a bike in the correct size rather than refunding?
These are separate issues.
Your bike was sold to him for a price. He could have sold it or whatever, it's gone.
You then used the money, plus more to buy a bike. That isn't up to scratch so you need to get a new one off them or a full refund of what you paid (including the money from the bike you sold him).
was this an immediate thing - arrived at shop; you sat on it; "doesn't fit"; "OK, we'll swap it"The new bike didn't fit and had to go back
If you've ridden it more than round a car park and then decided it doesn't fit, it comes down to "more details needed"
His bike was stolen. Sucks to be him.
You bought a bike from him, it’s the wrong size. I *think* you either need one the right size or a refund. But wouldn’t be surprised if you were (legally at least) only entitled to the not fitting bike, that you bought.
Edit: as above, depends at what stage you decided it didn’t fit, and the conditions of the sale.
Onzadog - a swapped dropper and shorter cranks would have sorted it but he wanted nearly full retail on the replacements so another £700. £4k bike was becoming a £4700 bike.
To complicate it I'm an odd shape and right on the border of frame sizes. The smaller frame size top tube would be too short.
CSB - I didn't sell him anything. Payment was in the form of money and a trade in. The transaction was online. Until I'm satisfied with the goods he has provided he is only a bailee in respect of my bike. He has possession but not title.
Is that correct ? If you're within the limit for return of online goods (UNUSED), then maybe. You seem pretty certain, so fingers crossedUntil I'm satisfied with the goods he has provided he is only a bailee in respect of my bike. He has possession but not title
Well he's lost the bike you 'sold' him so (if he accepts the refund principle) he owes you the amount he agreed to pay for it.
I've no idea if your correct with this bailee thing. I'll take your word that you are. But what size bike did you request from the dealer ? Was that correctly supplied and in the appropriate condition?
Distance selling aside are bike shops responsible for people buying bikes that the buyer then feels is the wrong size.
Thanks for the replies. I've concluded I'm perhaps being a little harsh on the shop.
The refund is being sorted. The issue was people's experience of having bike stolen or destroyed whilst in a shop.
Take the 4k bike. Buy new cranks and shorter dropper. Sell old ones. Live with the (small) hit.
Pretty sure that changing cranks and dropper would be well outside the "changing stuff to get it to fit" deal that most dealers do (Usually just stem, saddle and maybe cassette on a brand new, not-yet-been-ridden bike, in my experience on both sides of the desk)
Oh. And the only people I know who have had bikes stolen from shops have been treated very well.
Both the shops gave them an "at cost" build to the insurance value.
The refund is being sorted. The issue was people's experience of having bike stolen or destroyed whilst in a shop.
As a refund is on the way it should include the trade in value agreed plus the balance paid. I.e £500 trade in plus £3,500 balance.
Ghostlymachine thanks for the reply. Given that the retailer operates on part exchange, I had hoped they would have a suitable second hand alternative they could offer.
Folks I've been buying bikes mail order for years. Needless to say I had a long chat with the retailer expressing my concerns that, on paper, the geometry didn't work. The size was recommended by the retailer.
The size was recommended by the retailer.
Not something I'd do with a mail order customer, who had concerns about size. I'd leave it to them to make that decision.
taxi - During the conversation I suggested I might be better just buying the larger size frame and custom building to ensure a good fit. The retailer wasn't competitive on the component prices so he knew I would spend £1500 on a frame or £4k on a full bike.
I'm not necessarily saying the size recommendation was connected to me suggesting that.
Not unknown for shops to try and sell what they have rather than what you need 🙁
If the new bike fit was spotted to be wrong promptly (many online stores offer 30 days IIRC), I would have thought that the bike shop either needs to offer you the same bike in correct size; let you choose another bike using the the cash balance you handed in with your old bike (possibly requiring you to either hand in more cash or for bike shop to give you a partial refund); or give you a full refund for all the cash you handed over with your old bike.
Once you traded it in, your old bike was no longer yours, what happens to it is no longer your concern.
What is your concern is the cash you paid along with the trade in, if the new bike isn't right and you have conformed to rules on returning the ill-fitting bike.
"Once you traded it in, your old bike was no longer yours, what happens to it is no longer your concern."
On what basis?
Once you traded it in, your old bike was no longer yours, what happens to it is no longer your concern."On what basis?
If the one you bought was stolen who would take the hit?
If you trade in a car and have a fault with the new one, its unlikely you'd get the old one back. They'll fix the new one or I imagine refund you the sale price if it got to that point.
You traded a bike and paid extra £ which meant you got a new bike. You are owed the sale price of the bike you bought and if he doesnt have your bike then it should all be in cash.
How long did you expect him to keep your bike before selling it on?
How long did you expect him to keep your bike before selling it on?
72 hours unreasonable?
Yes - unless you specifically agreed that he would keep it for a specific length of time so you could return the other bike and cancel the deal if you weren't happy.
Yep, my vote is you are only entitled to the trade in price back.
This is different to someone who had their bike stolen from a bike shop whilst it was in for servicing. You had effectively sold them your bike for an agreed price. If it was less than it was worth, that's your lookout for valuing your time over it's worth sold in a more effective way.
In what state did you return the new bike? Entirely unridden outside? Personally I take 100% responsibility for the fit of a bike bought remotely/online and would not trust anyone else’s judgement. I'm afraid I treat everyone who works in a bike shop at their lowest common denominator. Some I know are excellent but many (and I met a few when I worked in one) are definately not. I would definately not trust the advice of someone who had never met me to size me to a bike.
Could you not have bought a seatpost elsewhere and sold the one on the bike to reduce the cost? Where you aware of the crank length when you bought it?
In what state did you return the bike? Entirely unridden outside?
Yes. Unpacked and assembled in one of the living rooms.
Well at least that makes the return under distance selling regs or whatever it's call now simple.
Genuinely appreciate the different perspectives. Thanks to all.
new bike price was £4k, you get £4k refund and now have £4k to go and buy the right bike somewhere else, cash and can go some haggling. Sorted.
one of the living rooms.
Ooh get you...
Ooh get you...
I thought everyone with £4k bikes had at least 2 living rooms?
had at least 2 living rooms?
Living rooms are the new n+1 🙂
What living room for assembling 4K bike?
the one with the 4k TV obviously!
That’s handy for him, buys bike at leas than market value, bike is spirited away, cheque for full value arrives.
Just saying like. 😉
IMO you are entitled only to whatever figure he offered you for yours, what happened to it after it left your possession is nothing to do with you.
If he'd sold it and it snapped the frame 15 min later, would you have accepted the bike back?
I'm not a lawyer, but I think the operative thing here is "possession is nine-tenths of the law". You accepted a new bike, took it home, and assembled it (which is strange, because a shop would normally deliver it fully assembled), and handed over money and a used bike that both parties agreed were equal in value to the new bike.
However, there's a pretty good chance that your old bike was worth much more than the documented trade-in value and the seller or one of his mates wants to keep it, or has already stripped it for parts. Whatever the case, you aren't going to get it back. If the seller has agreed to accept your new bike back as a return, the obvious thing would be that they offer you an equivalent bike in a smaller size. Otherwise, they owe you the agreed value of the bike you bought (i.e. the sum of the money you gave them plus the agreed trade-in value of your old bike). I don't see how you have much choice but to accept either of those offers if they make them.
TBH, this whole thing doesn't really add up.
TBH, this whole thing doesn't really add up.
In what sense?
That bikes not been pinched, it's just worth more to him than he gave you for it, so it makes sense for the retailer to keep it and give you a new bike, as you pay retail and he pays cost price.
Snidey business though
In what sense?
1. The retailer didn't assemble the bike before delivery.
2. You returned the bike without getting either a refund or another new bike in exchange.
This seems strange behavior on the part of the retailer. Now, they have your money, your old bike, and you have nothing. Possession is nine tenths of the law, so now you are in the position of either accepting whatever they offer or taking legal action to get your money back.
When I say the bike wasn't assembled I just mean the handlebars, stem and wheels needed sorting. I didn't have to build from frame up.
I agree on the value differential. The retailer had a used bike similar to mine up for sale at the time I was browsing his website for my new bike. He had it on for almost twice the trade in he gave me.
Needless to say I wouldn't be thinking what I was thinking to start this thread if there hadn't been some snidey behaviour. The retailer agreed to refund me weeks ago and I'm still waiting on my money. A number of promised deadlines for refund have come and gone.
I did suggest some alternative bikes but he just didn't bite.
The return has cost me nearly £300 (Parcelforce etc) and the retailer has the returned bike back up for sale for the price he sold it to me. Goes without saying my patience has been burned through and my attitude is hardening. I was originally happy enough to absorb the £300, get a prompt refund and go buy another bike.
£300 to post a bike? Are you in a different country to the retailer? Otherwise that’s really expensive.
Postage was £145 fully insured. £95 to retailer for the the invisiframe he fitted to the bike and the rest in getting the bike packed by a shop etc.
Retailer tried to bill me £50 for return post. When I queried it he let slip his courier could have returned it for £50. Snidey in my view and part of the reason my position is hardening.
Letter before action time, IMO. The goods are back in the retailer's possession - you should have been refunded, particularly as the frame now has a nice invisiframe on it as a tempter for the next buyer.
How did you pay? Hopefully by credit card.
I made sure to pay at good chunk of it by CC for the Section 75 protection. I have already placed the transaction in dispute with my bank. The retailer has now told me three times he is refunding the money but nothing as yet has reached my account.
Going back to my original query I had hoped the retailer would have at least tried to sort me out with a decent deal on a replacement given what had happened to my own bike. I wondered if I was being naive.
The dominant view seems to be that the retailer owes me neither money nor goodwill.
The dominant view seems to be that the retailer owes me neither money nor goodwill.
As he's accepted the bike back he certainly owes you momey !!
A number of promised deadlines for refund have come and gone.
This is worrying and very poor 🙁
The only issue here is he hasn't refunded you; not that the bike he took as PX was stolen or sold or even given away. The PX bike was no longer yours.
It all does seem a bit unusual.....
If the retailer has the new bike back, he needs to refund you immediately. Sounds like you have already been more patient than necessary.
The trade in situation is coming across as dishonest from the retailer, and as ‘buyers regret’ from the OP. As others have posted, once the exchange was made the bike no longer belonged to the OP, and it’s no longer any of his business. Unless theyhad a special arrangement, the fact it was let it go for too low a value is irrelevant.
All a bit odd but the one thing that is clear is that you have no right to ask for your old bike back. Forget about that bike.
At best you have the total cost of whatever the cash value of the PX and the cash you paid over.
However I bet the retailer will argue that the bike he sold you is now second hand because it has had a non standard treatment done to it.
I could splash that kind of money on a bike without knowing it would fit me
Not strictly relevant as I don't know if it happened in the OP's case but a returned high value bike that the shop ordered in especially for the purchase must create havoc for a small shop's cashflow. A bike worth £2-3K trade price and you can't return to the distributer but are obliged to refund through the Consumer Contracts Regulations could give your bank balance a massive problem untill you sell it for the second time. A bit niche or in an odd size and even harder.
Not specifically ordered in. It came from stock and is back on the site at the price I paid for it.
And how much to send your old bike to them?
Why did you spend so much on shipping the bike back?
"hello, I want to return this bike to you. How much would it be to use your courier and have it taken from the refund costs?"
£95 for invisiframe - ouch. So have they removed it from the bike now or are they selling it with it on as a freebie to the new owner? Probably hope the new owners asks for the same service and charge them as well 😀
andy - the retailer specifically said I had to return it at my own expense. The £50 it would have cost them was put on to their invoice by mistake by the accounts department. I found that out when I queried the charge. £90 unnecessary expense.
The invisiframe is still on it.
Right after reading 2 pages of this i don't understand WHY YOU haven't driven over to where you bought it from ? And why did you pay so much to return it ! Surly it would of been just as cheap to taken it back by person and sorted it out there and then .
( unless you are not in the same country as the shop )
Correct. I'm not in the same country. I'm in Ireland. Bike shop in England.
Something is definitely missing from this story. It’d be cut and dry otherwise.
Ok where's the shop in England then ?
Yeah this whole story seems like it’s misisng something.
Name and shame....it's all we want to know now 😉
Something is definitely missing from this story. It’d be cut and dry otherwise.
Yup. Don't understand why the retailer took weeks to tell me my bike had been stolen when I had been asking for weeks if he still had my bike. Don't understand why the refund is taking so long.
Name and shame....it's all we want to know now
The retailer isn't here to give his side of the story so I'm reluctant to do so.
Is there another side to the story? Seems pretty matter of fact? Send them a link?
There are always at least two narratives Tom. I've resolved he has until Tuesday to refund me.
Not going to send a link as I didn't start this thread for leverage on a bike shop.
There's a huge amount of stuff I haven't recounted so that's why people may feel there's something missing eg I posted the bike back to the returns address published on the shop's website. Parcelforce then contact me to say those premises are vacant. I contact the shop who admit they no longer occupy those premises and are directing returns to an empty building.
That's very noble but it might also be good to let other folk know not to deal with them.Not going to send a link as I didn't start this thread for leverage on a bike shop.
Not going to send a link as I didn't start this thread for leverage on a bike shop.
How’s that working out for you? Got your 4 grand back yet?
That's very noble but it might also be good to let other folk know not to deal with them.
Scotroutes I genuinely think this is a personal thing. I did some research on them before buying and couldn't really find too much negative feedback about them. The whole transaction was fraught from beginning to end and I have the sense the retailer thinks I'm a knob and is treating me as such. That and the sense the shop is a bit amateurish.
No panic Tom. Section 75 protection.
Don't understand why the retailer took weeks to tell me my bike had been stolen
...and we still don't understand how your traded-in bike is relevant to any of this. If the shop is the one raising that issue as some sort of excuse for not refunding you, that's between you and them, but it's only seems to be complicating the story for anyone else wanting to offer advice.
I realise it's water under the bridge, but in case it helps in future, did you really think a couple of millimeters difference in crank length could make up for the wrong frame size ? The bike's 'reach' is the most important dimension, and crank length hardly has any affect on that. Hopefully you'll get something useful out of this whole experience and get the perfect bike next time 🙂
DiscJockey - cheers. I was a bit focused on crank arm length as I went from 175 to 170 on my last bike and it just felt perfect.
The stolen bike had a 19.5" seat tube and a 125mm Transfer post. The new one had a 20.5" seat tube, 150mm dropper and 175mm cranks. It was just too tall but reach seemed spot on.
Dave Hinde ? 🙂
Not Dave Hinde. Even I'm not that stupid.
Something is definitely missing from this story
This.....all types of oddness.
It has definitely been a bizarre experience.
The stolen bike had a 19.5" seat tube and a 125mm Transfer post. The new one had a 20.5" seat tube, 150mm dropper and 175mm cranks. It was just too tall but reach seemed spot on.
I understand your problem there as I nearly got caught out myself on a mail-order frame that had a longer seat-tube than the bike it replaced. With the 150mm Reverb fully inserted, at max extension, it's my exact max height. A cm higher an I'd have needed to replace it with a 125mm Reverb, but I'm glad I didn't as I use the full travel. I'd never have got shorter cranks to over-come that though - bad idea. Unless you're under about 5ft 5", you should have 172.5mm cranks for an MTB (I'm generalising here, but I doubt you need 170mm cranks). And your legs can't be that short if you had a 19.5" frame before.
A 20.5" seat-tube on modern frames is long, dare I say it, old-school, unless it's a size XL 2018 model. If you really need that much length/reach but not a long seat-tube, there are various manufacturers offering 'long and low' bikes, and that's a good thing. Don't get a 'gate' of a frame just to get the reach you want. If you must do mail-order, really research frame dimensions, and maybe get to a demo-day to find out what reach you need.
Thanks DiscJockey.
Generalising, or making stuff up?Unless you're under about 5ft 5", you should have 172.5mm cranks for an MTB (I'm generalising here, but I doubt you need 170mm cranks).
I'm not far off 6 foot and mostly running 170's (and 165s on the road.....)
Latest thinking (as in the last ~10 years) has all but decoupled crank length from height (or even leg length) its all about proportions, flexibility and intended use.
Yet another phone call from the retailer today saying there was yet another reason why the card refund promised last week couldn't be processed and I had to hand over my card details for the refund again.
In addition, I got an email saying I was being refunded £1460 for my trade in. I'm not - I'm getting £900.
So no refund being generated at present. However, it did occur to me that a very misleading financial paper trail is being created which to date makes it look like the retailer has refunded me approx £10k when they haven't refunded me a penny.
They send me a photo of the receipt from their card machine every time they purport to refund me and the email over states what I am being refunded for my trade in.
Could just be numptyism and I could have a poisoned mind though.
My moneys on that the shop sold your PX for more money than they paid for it & don't want to lose that profit, quite why they would jeopardise that by not refunding you the original amount makes me think they are short on cash flow & have to stick to the original story or they get in trouble for not being upfront to begin with.
That or your half of the story is very misleading 😕
Even money bet 🙄
Are you keeping the card company informed?
They'll not be impressed.......
And maybe the 1460 is what they sold the trade in for..... or what they are claiming on the insurance......
2 unfit might have it on the cashflow point.
I posted the bike back to the returns address published on the shop's website. Parcelforce then contact me to say those premises are vacant. I contact the shop who admit they no longer occupy those premises and are directing returns to an empty building.
This!!!!!!!! Sounds shonky. At this I'd also be involving local, to them, police. Even just for advice.
All sounds pretty strange, the return address being vacant would have me melting their phone line with obscenities for one. It does sound like they've sold it on then burnt through the proceeds - not a clue what the multiple refund / receipts are all about but i'd be wary of being caught in the middle of someone trying to fudge their accounts at your expense. Or they could simply be completely inept & it's all a silly mistake which will be sorted out in due course.
Any pics of the old bike? Someone might have bought it & be unhappy that the bike shop they bought it from is now claiming it's been stolen...
