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It’d be like if you took your car in for an oil change and they just accidentally set the engine on fire (because oil is slightly flammable).
More that the oil filter was corroded onto the sump and the threads were damaged when getting it off.
As haggis pointed out WD40 is a water dispersant not a lubricant. I'd be questioning their skills and experience in removing stuck seatposts using this method. Or were they just having a go and the red mist set in when it was obviously stuck fast.
Not totally the shops fault for breaking it, that’s the result of the lack of maintenance on the OP’s part coupled to the shop’s attempts to remove it.
Sorry, but it is. If we can only expect to get our frames back in one piece if the bikes are perfectly maintained then I'm really struggling to see what the point in bike shops even is.
They are not our mates with tools who happen to be good at fixing bikes. They are a business who should have insurance for this sort of thing.
As you said, if the shop had said 'We might break the frame getting this post out' then it's a completely different situation.
The shop should have used this as an expensive lesson in communicating clearly with the customer instead of trying to avoid the costs themselves. It sounds like they're not going to learn this lesson and they are going to continue creating unhappy customers until they go out of business.
I would take my bike to my lbs to avoid this situation as it's exactly this sort of situation where my own hamfistery would end up in this result
Random aside - as a bike shop (or a garage dealing with cars come to that), is there an insurance policy you could have for employee **** ups? I'm guessing its a third party liability insurance and most have it. How easy is it to claim on though? Refusal to 'do the right thing' I guess could be either that they are totally confident they did nothing wrong or the financial impact of making it right being business critical financially.
All up I think I'm on the customer/ops side here. Mainly because of the lack of communication. I've popped enough stuck seatposts to know when I'm getting into frame wrecking territory. That's because I've got some experience, a brain and some common sense. The key point about most bike shop employees is they are not engineers. Or even close. They get paid way too little for that (and we are not prepared to pay better to get over qualified engineers replacing inner tubes so that every now and again a person with the right understandings is in place for the rare job). So if you have a non-engineer (with a noddy bit of cytec paper or not) with little common sense, experience or interpersonal skills these things happen. Most of them don't know what they don't know. Most have never layed up a bit of carbon, tig welded a bit of aluminium alloy or used a lathe. Their material science knowledge comes from drinking up the bike mag coolaid.
They should have communicated the risks of getting more physical to continuing to attempt to remove.
They should have explored the possibility of deliberately destroying the post and cutting it out to protect the frame and given you that as an option.
They should have given you the option of just leaving as was as a least worst option.
Total aside...a reminder to us all. Attend to your shafts. No one enjoys a dry shaft/hole interface, especially if it's a long term relationship.
To me it comes down to the telephone conversation.
Did they mention any damage to the frame at that point?
Did they mention the consequences of trying to release a seat post?
Was the only contact back to say that the frame was damaged by email?
Especially on the last point that would sound alarm bells with me. At the very best its incredibly poor customer service
To me the first convo should have been. "The frame looks visually ok (or damaged as they appear to be saying) but your post is stuck. We can try getting it out but the consequence is that it could damage the frame beyond repair". "How would you like us to proceed customer"
I am no expert on getting post out, but surly you get to the point of cutting the post out before damaging the frame?
I am no expert on getting post out, but surly you get to the point of cutting the post out before damaging the frame?
Not really. Generally you just try more and more brute force!
However... if it gets to the point where you've clamped a bloody great crowbar into the top to get more leverage or you're hanging off the frame like a gorilla, you would at that point pause and reconsider all the options since it's fairly obviously knackered.
And at that point, i would call the customer and say: "here's where we're at..." and describe the options. Mostly because at that point, it's all the customer's fault and you can sell them a new seatpost and some carbon paste...
Not totally the shops fault for breaking it,
Some jaw dropping comments on this thread, like this one. WTF? You would not say this if it was your frame they broke, that's a certainty.
In what world isn't it totally their fault? The ONLY get out with stuff like this is that they call you and ask you to come into the shop and they get you to sign some sort of waiver to say that you understand the risk involved of them trying to remove the seatpost and that you're happy that they have fully explained all the risks involved. Without this they haven't got a leg to stand on and probably know this deep down. They sound like chancers to me.
A telephone call, unless recorded wouldn't be enough either. As they did not do this and just went ahead and obviously used excessive force then its on them completely.
Frame before they touched it - fine.
Frame after they attempted to remove seatpost - donald ducked = 100% their fault. Simple as that.
I wouldn't be willing to pay anything towards a new frame. That's all on them.
The ones saying its the owners fault for not looking after the bike is just stupid. So that means when you take your car for a service and they discover it needs additional work which they do and say set fire to your car doing the work - this is partly your fault because you 'didn't maintain the car properly' is laughable and just lacks the most basic of thinking.
Frame before they touched it – fine.Frame after they attempted to remove seatpost – donald ducked = 100% their fault. Simple as that.
Hmm.
Frame before they touched it - [b]appeared[/b] fine...
Slightly playing devil's advocate but it clearly wasn't fine because the seatpost was already seized in place. Whether that had caused any additional unseen damage, internal weakening of the frame is probably very difficult to prove one way or the other.
Quite often you only discover problems when you come to do what (on the face of it) is routine maintenance. The shop almost certainly made it worse but that's not to say the frame wasn't already screwed - just much less obviously so.
That to a great extent yes...
As haggis pointed out WD40 is a water dispersant not a lubricant. I’d be questioning their skills and experience in removing stuck seatposts using this method. Or were they just having a go and the red mist set in when it was obviously stuck fast.
WD40 Penetrant Spray is designed for exactly this purpose and I've used it as such in marine environments.
From WD: "Our Specialist Fast Release Penetrant spray specifically targets corroded or rusted components and mechanisms. It’s formula loosens stuck or seized parts quickly and easily.
The penetrant has an extremely low surface tension, meaning it can cut through rust, seams and tightly-bonded threads to easily saturate and lubricate seized fixings. The Smart Straw and 360° valve allows it to be used precisely at all angles, and the capillary action of the formula means it can reach tight and hard to reach spaces."
Plain vanilla WD40 not so much, but WD40 is just a catch all trade name these days and not all products are equal.
Hmmmn, lots of different opinions on here. I’ll give my 2p worth.
If the frame looked fine on the outside (I.e. none of the visible damage now seen) and the shop caused the now visible damage trying to get the post out then clearly they have caused the damage.
If they got the customer to confirm there was a risk of damage trying to heave / twist / chemical the post and got their go ahead to try anyway then the shop have got that get out and what they’re offering now seems fine. Discount on a new frame etc.
However, if they didn’t advise this was a possible outcome and just said they’d fix it and then have caused the damage then I feel it’s all on the shop to sort out - I.e provide a new frame.
In terms of evidence that’s more tricky. Have they got the customer to sign a waiver - I doubt it. Were there photos taken of the bike before the attempt to remove the post to evidence no external damage - I doubt it.
So I’ve no idea how this would go down in the small claims court. Perhaps if there are some photos of the bike just before it went in that show it was all looking ok then it’s likely to go in the customer’s favour.
If the frame looked fine on the outside (I.e. none of the visible damage now seen) and the shop caused the now visible damage trying to get the post out then clearly they have caused the damage.
As above, I'm on the OPs side here, but this is not quite right. They might (probably) have caused the damage. but they might just have exposed the damage.
This thread is all about speculation as we weren't there.
The bike shop may have applied excessive force. They mayhave just tried the WD40 thing overnight, twisted the saddle with light force, the seatpost freed but the small cracks in the frame appeared. Or they might have clamped the post in a vice and had 2 big blokes hanging off the frame ignoring the cracking noises.
From having worked in a bike shop is not uncommon that normal working practices have unusual and catastrophic consequences. Once I was removing a pedal. I put no more than about 15nm on the pedal spanner and the end of the crank arm snapped off. We replaced it from our spares box, but that was 100% not our fault, there was no sign of any issues before I started, and the pedal was removed pretty easily from the broken off part.
I'm Cytech 3 and Veleotech platinum plus with 10 years experience and I don't know where the fault lies here. By nature, as a bike mechanic I'd want to send the customer away happy, but if I was the mechanic and the frame failed due to me doing nothing out of the ordinary and the frame was clearly heavily corroded on the inside then I'd be reluctant to take the hit. It does sound like communication hasn't been very good though.
Can't see how WD40 on carbon / into the seat tube like this for a short period would have caused damage or stress fractures. The twisting force applied might. 2 separate things.
I know very little about composites but I wouldn't be suprised if a carbon frame was damaged more easily by torque like this (vs a metal frame) as the layup would not have been specced with this force in mind. May depend on whether the frame was used as a lever against the post or the post was twisted/pulled against a well fixed frame. And there's often a join between F + R sections in the seat cluster area.
So Mrs Hoppy has spoken to them and the shop have confirmed that they “broke” the frame pulling the post out but that they couldn’t do anything else.
To be honest any debate about who's to blame sort of ended at this post.
Yes (as I said in several posts) it could have been knackered before it went into the shop but the shop have agreed that wasn't the case, its now the shop's problem to sort it.
Hmm.
Frame before they touched it – appeared fine…Slightly playing devil’s advocate but it clearly wasn’t fine because the seatpost was already seized in place. Whether that had caused any additional unseen damage, internal weakening of the frame is probably very difficult to prove one way or the other.
Quite often you only discover problems when you come to do what (on the face of it) is routine maintenance. The shop almost certainly made it worse but that’s not to say the frame wasn’t already screwed – just much less obviously so.
If the frame was already screwed then you'd hope they see that before they tried to get the seatpost out. As they cannot prove it was, its irrelevant. Plus from what the OP said they told him that the frame was showing stress cracks, so it obviously wasn't before their botched attempt. They caused those stress cracks. End of conversation. If it was showing crack's before hand why would they bother to try and get the post out?
I got an email today to say that they’d got it 80mm up but the frame was showing stress cracks and is now junk
Just because a seatpost is stuck in a frame does not mean the frame wasn't perfectly fine. Happens a lot, that's why someone has made a business out of removing seat posts.
Whichever way you try to spin it, its the shops fault.
Serves me right for reading first thing this morning and then coming back and replying after lots of other posts !
So Mrs Hoppy has spoken to them and the shop have confirmed that they “broke” the frame pulling the post out but that they couldn’t do anything else. They’re going away to talk with the manufacturer to see what they can do about a better offer.
So they have admitted it was their fault. I guess the only bit now is was the frame still useable with the post stuck in it now?
If you can still use the bike as intended then IMO they should pay for a new frame, rebuild etc but you will need to buy a new post.
If the frame is not useable because of the stuck post, then that is more a bit of your own responsibility and I would expect to have to pay a little towards the new frame.
Fact is the shop should have rung to say we have tried everything we can, the next step might bork your frame.
Catch 22 then because you might have ended up in the position where you had a frame that is useless because it has a knackered seatpost in it, and have to pay ££££ for a new frame and post, You could argue their incompetence will save you lots of money
When I worked for a bike charity (I delivered velotech training for them) we were in a different but kinda similar situation. carbon frame came in for overhaul, new chain and cassette and new cables.
Guy came back a few days later with his front mech in his hand and a frame with a mech mount sheared of.
The guys in the shop say they didn't over tighten or put any sideways loading on it and it worked fine when it left the shop. However, as we couldn't prove either way whether the damage was done during the work, or before it came in, we settled using liability insurance to the tune of around £3k, having considered the potential impact and disruption of a small claims court case.
From having worked in a bike shop is not uncommon that normal working practices have unusual and catastrophic consequences. Once I was removing a pedal. I put no more than about 15nm on the pedal spanner and the end of the crank arm snapped off. We replaced it from our spares box, but that was 100% not our fault, there was no sign of any issues before I started, and the pedal was removed pretty easily from the broken off part.
With things like this, there's normally some evidence suggesting cracks have started, some dulling of the broken area etc. for a frame it's a little different, for a carbon frame it's nigh on impossible if the area wasn't inspected prior to doing the work, and most of the time, this wouldn't happen, the shop will just want to et on with it.
We don't know if the cracks in the OP's frame were present before it went in to the shop. However, we do know that the shop tried to get the post out, which likely required a force that the frame isn't specifically designed for.
In the absence of certainty, the right thing for the shop to do would be use their liability insurance and claim.
Just because a seatpost is stuck in a frame does not mean the frame wasn’t perfectly fine
Nor does the fact sometimes they're fine mine always they are.
If the frame was already screwed then you’d hope they see that before they tried to get the seatpost out.
With their x-ray vision?
Sometimes you simply can't tell until you start to take things apart.
But in this instance it doesn't matter. The shop have admitted fault.
So Mrs Hoppy has spoken to them and the shop have confirmed that they “broke” the frame pulling the post out but that they couldn’t do anything else. They’re going away to talk with the manufacturer to see what they can do about a better offer.
I'd immediately e-mail them confirming the content of this conversation (what they've admitted and agreed to do), and that you look forward to hearing from them.
Covers you if the situation goes nasty, and you end up in a legal dispute.
They mayhave just tried the WD40 thing overnight, twisted the saddle with light force, the seatpost freed but the small cracks in the frame appeared.
They've only moved the post 80mm, its not freed
So they have admitted it was their fault. I guess the only bit now is was the frame still useable with the post stuck in it now?
They've not got the post out, and it's 80mm from the starting positon. ie ****ed
If the frame is not useable because of the stuck post, then that is more a bit of your own responsibility and I would expect to have to pay a little towards the new frame.
£110 at the absolutely most, as charged by shops who actually know how to remove a post without destroying a frame. However, I would still disagree that the OP('s wife) has any responsibility here as it appears the shop has just gone for it and completely cocked it up
Sounds like the shop inadvertently took on a job they did not have the skills/tools to do. If they were just going to brute force it out I would expect them to say it was at your risk.
I often do problem repairs, but explain options, risks etc before starting work. Also carefully examine to check for existing damage and point it out to the customer first.
I am no expert on getting post out, but surly you get to the point of cutting the post out before damaging the frame?
Yes, if it will not move with a reasonable amount of force you cut the seatpost to remove it without damaging the frame. Dropper is obviously more complicated as you need to partially dismantle them before you can cut a slot. You also need a person or tool capable of slotting the post without cutting the frame (pretty common to see cuts in the frame when people attempt this)
Normally one slot and a puller is sufficient to remove most posts (the slot allows the seatpost to constrict inwards enough to remove. You can cut 2 slots opposite each other to enable removal with very little force on particularly fragile frames.
Reasonable force would depend on the frame, carbon, alloy steel etc, seat tube straight or kinked.
With a properly seized alloy post in a carbon frame it is very likely to need slotted. A little bit stuck will come out with normal bodge methods. You get galvanic corrosion between alloy and carbon. The aluminium oxide expands and locks the post in the frame. Some frames are only seatpost sized for at the top and neck out into the frame so it forms an expanded plug
You do see carbon bikes come in with vertical splits in the seat tube due to oxide expansion.
Slotting tools and a seatpost puller will remove most posts. I have seen frames set up on the tool post of a lathe and bored out, or use a vertical or horizontal borer, radial arm drill etc. Unless you have access to tools like that it is unlikely to be cost effective due to the time to jig up.
Not really. Generally you just try more and more brute force!
That is how frames get broken. I regularly see posts and frames that other shops have damaged trying to brute force them out. At best it just takes more time/costs more to remove the mess that is left, worst a frame was needlessly destroyed.
John (The Seat Post Man) obviously specializes in seat post removal, there are a few other shops in the UK that are constantly removing them. Quite a few shops have stopped trying in house and just send them on as its not worth the risk (or time if you are not set up to do it).
With their x-ray vision?
Sometimes you simply can’t tell until you start to take things apart.But in this instance it doesn’t matter. The shop have admitted fault.
The same X-Ray vision they used after their attempt when they spotted the cracks then I presume.
Are you sure it's not a sticker?
@convert normally insurance policies exclude damage to item being worked on, so it’s unlike that this damage would be covered by insurance, probably why they’re trying to avoid coughing up. Whether they could argue that they were working on the seat post and not the frame I’m not sure, but from an Underwriting point of view I’d say probably not. If you install a turbo wrong on a car and it kills an engine, insurance would cover the engine, but not the turbo. But With this case the frame was damaged as part of removing the stuck post, so I think the shop would have to suck it up.
I’m in the shops fault camp, they’re supposed to be expert enough that they’ll know to stop before it completely borks it unless they’ve had the nod from the customer that it would be an acceptable outcome.
As the shop have now admitted they broke the frame, that part of it seems concluded.
The question now is the remedy. What is a 4 year old carbon frame with a seized seat post worth? I don't think them buying you a new frame is reasonable as they didn't break a new frame, they broke a 4 year old frame. So it was worth maybe 40 - 50% of the new price?
If they offered you 50% off the frame price and free labour to swap everything over with new cables etc would that sound reasonable?
I'm not saying that they will offer that or that you should accept that, but I think you have to be realistic with your expectations.
- The shop didn't check before proceeding with work, which could be potentially damaging to the frame.
-The shop is clearly not competent in the removal process, firstly by using WD40 and then the method chosen has damaged the frame.
Its on them, they need to suck it up and put things right.
I have been away from bike maintenance for over 15yrs now. I have zero knowledge of how to fix your seatpost. HOWEVER i 100% would know what a siezed seatpost felt like when trying to remove it and i 100% know the kind of damage i could cause to £3k worth of frame if i try to hard to force it.
The shop is 100% at fault. They should have called you in and discussed your options and tbh, a shop really doesnt need this hastle. Why didnt they just inform you it was stuck and let you make it someone elses problem.
So update from the shop. They've had a think about it and they're supplying a new frame at their expense and building it up for us. We just need to buy a new seatpost, which seems more than fair.
"So update from the shop. They’ve had a think about it and they’re supplying a new frame at their expense and building it up for us. We just need to buy a new seatpost, which seems more than fair."
That's an excellent result and what I'd have expected a good shop to do. Unfortunately it's one of those painful costs of doing business, where someone who works for you (assuming it wasn't the shop owner being brutal!) does the wrong thing and it costs you money to sort out.
Good news indeed
Question is then,,, What seatpost are you going for?
A carbon one so it doesn't bond.
Good result - I wonder if they are reading this?
Well done to all parties. MrHoppy for not revealing the shop, or model of bike, and the shop - who I suspect have been following this thread with mounting dismay. Edit - beaten by Molgrips.
And we've all learned something valuable.
If the shop is reading this, identify yourself and you might get some business from folk who like your refreshing attitude.
name and praise then
good stuff.
Can we know what frame it is now....?
If the shop is reading this, identify yourself and you might get some business from folk who like your refreshing attitude.
Erm, what, the shop that trashed someone's frame, tried to get them to buy a new one, then eventually accepted that they're were at fault, possibly as a result of internet pressure? I think I might go somewhere else tbh. Unless your idea of 'refreshing' is somewhere different from mine
Good eventual outcome, but they should have held their hands up right at the start no?
So update from the shop. They’ve had a think about it and they’re supplying a new frame at their expense and building it up for us. We just need to buy a new seatpost, which seems more than fair.
They tried their luck with trying to get you to pay didn't they?
That'd be the last time I use them if I were you.
Good news though and glad they made the correct decision. A lot of posters on this thread who put blame with you owe you an apology - that is if they've stopped orbiting earth and have now landed safe and sound back on earth.
Honestly, some people. No wonder we've got a lunatic tory ruining the country. 🙂
Not totally the shops fault for breaking it, that’s the result of the lack of maintenance on the OP’s part coupled to the shop’s attempts to remove it.
Sorry, but it is. If we can only expect to get our frames back in one piece if the bikes are perfectly maintained then I’m really struggling to see what the point in bike shops even is.
and
Some jaw dropping comments on this thread, like this one. WTF? You would not say this if it was your frame they broke, that’s a certainty.
Selective quoting much.
It's not the shop's fault that it was corroded in. Whose fault was that other than the OP? Once that's accepted as fact, and then that the methods for releasing may cause damage, then it has to also be partly the OP's fault that it got damaged on releasing. That's as obvious as night following day.
What is not the OP's fault is that they then proceeded to release it without warning OP of the the potential damage. Consequently he didn't get the option of refusing / taking it elsewhere. That's why the shop has some of the fault.
By your argument if they'd advised him properly and then it had got broken it would be their fault still?
Everybody makes mistakes. Judge them by the way they resolve them.
No winners here
People make mistakes
So many quick to be judge and executioner (in general and on here)
Think it's time to take a break from the internet for a few days
Once that’s accepted as fact, and then that the methods for releasing may cause damage, then it has to also be partly the OP’s fault that it got damaged on releasing. That’s as obvious as night following day.
Not really.
For example, assume we're talking about a stuck bolt. Its stuck because whoever fitted it, in this case the customer, didn't apply the correct anti-sieze, tried to remove it and rounded it in the process. The widget is taken for repair with the assurance they will get it sorted no bother.
Now, the expert may employ one of many non destructive techniques to remove the bolt, they could weld a nut onto the head or whatever, it's unimportant. Because they don't really know what they're doing they just drill it out, the drill wanders, bursts the threads and, oops its actually hollow and there's no way to repair it. Game over.
There are a million other bodges and **** ups that could land a spanner monkey in trouble. If they had taken a MAP torch to a frame (assuming it was metal) would it still be the customers fault?
The maintenance is what got the post stuck. How the shop chose to unstick it is what broke the frame. Having seen how it gets done my biggest concern would be the integrity of my BB before I even considered trying to save the post.
No, you're missing the point.
To use your example.
assume we’re talking about a stuck bolt. Its stuck because whoever fitted it, in this case the customer, didn’t apply the correct anti-sieze, tried to remove it and rounded it in the process. The widget is taken for repair
Right at this point the problem is entirely the customer's. They messed it up, it's all on them, no-one can dispute.
with the assurance they will get it sorted no bother.
At this point the fault if it goes wrong is with the shop. They said they'd fix it 'no bother'
but if that clause had said (and your example has many options of different degrees, but let's for now focus on one theoretical one at least)
with the caveat that they were going to try and fix it but there was a chance that in doing so the widget would get damaged.
If the customer says yes, I realise that, then if it goes wrong - they were warned. They could have said no, or asked someone else to do it or whatever. There's a responsibility of course on the shop still to do a decent job but the risk is back with the customer.
(this is where you example gets harder, because there could be discussions eg: we'll cut slots in the head and use mole grips but there's still a risk the corrosion (IDK, let's say) could cause the threads to strip as we undo it. If that happens the customer were warned. If the shop instead welds a bolt on and heat damages the widget - that wasn't agreed to, shop to blame. Anyway)
OK
Back to the real situation. Seatpost is stuck because OP didn't look after it. Totally OP's problem. Takes to shop (actually for a different issue, the stuck becomes the main issue). It all now becomes reliant on the level of comms between the shop and OP.
We got a call saying the post was stuck so they’d put some WD40 on to soak and would have another go.
OP was not made aware of extent of stuckness and methods of removal / potential for damage. At this point the emphasis is now on the shop. The might not have exactly said 'we'll fix it no bother', but seems like they also didn't say 'there's a risk in what we do next.....'
That's why I AGREE WITH OTHER POSTERS..... the problems now the shops because they messed it up. The OP has contributed by not maintaining, so has some part in it, but without comms, the problem is the shops.
I only said there is a portion of the blame that is shared. Not what share that is. Could be 50/50 (it isn't IMHO), could be 90/10, could be 99/1..... The OP has a share, most likely a tiny share but in the end his actions / inaction created the situation, if not the outcome.
I think I'm being argued with because I said I think 20% off a new frame seems reasonable. That's not the same as me saying he has 80% of the blame, and why I point out selective quoting. He's swapping a frame that's had 4 years' use for a new one. Consumer law entitles the retailer to make a deduction which reflects the use the OP has had from it. I don't think that's unfair, you may disagree on the number but getting a new frame back for the old one isn't the same as being put back to same position as when the OP went in. If the frame was a day old, then I'd be saying a FOC replacement is fair. If it was 2 years old - IDK, maybe customer gets 75% off, or whatever.....
Consumer law entitles the retailer to make a deduction which reflects the use the OP has had from it.
That is for replacement of faulty goods and does not cover this situation at all
fair comment.
I still think reasonably the OP should be put back into the situation he was in before they started work, but also realise that finding a 4yo frame with a seatpost stuck in it may be hard 😉
Just in the end happy for the OP, I think he's got a very good end of the deal finally