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3 years ago you could get 11/12 runs for less money.
Now lucky to get 8 so shorter hours it’s down to 7.
If your a Pinner it’s shite, but if you want a expensive jolly with your mates then it’s fine.
Shorter hours and a slower uplift sucks!
They will be getting less of my money.
I couldn't do 11/12 runs in a day even if it was free.
This thread does have quite a lot of mentalness... But... OK, look at Antur Stiniog. Antur built their own road, it was a pretty fast way up anyway and when it became a limiting factor with bus damage, comfort, speed etc, they tarmacced it. Every trail ends by the bus, and the bus goes almost perfectly to the start of the trails. They really went out of their way to make their uplifyt service awesome.
BPW's cafe and car park isn't at the uplift circle, the uplift doesn't start at the bottom nor run quite to the top, and the trails eject all over the bottom of the hill. Want to start your day, get something from the car or go to the cafe? Have to pedal back up to the uplift. Want to do the longer trails? Have to pedal back up to the uplift.
Took people a while to convince me of what should have been obvious- none of that's by mistake, they've worked quite hard at reducing the efficiency of the uplift, in other words to reduce the number of runs you can do in a day, in other words to increase the amount of tickets they can sell per bus. That is basically a bit crap.
Similarly, the uplift road wasn't built by them, it's the original FC road but you can't tell me they couldn't have improved that if improving the speed of the uplift was important. They've improved the passing places but you still go through about 9 postcodes on the way to the top.
Now i'll still go, next time we're down there, and I'll have a good day too. But that doesn't stop me being a bit peeved at their cynicism, and the fact that they've intentionally built a worse centre than they could have.
Yes a lot of mentalness indeed, including blaming them for the topography of the place.
Northwind, some interesting points there but as with some of the comments above, I take issue when you call their decisions cynical without knowing the full story. I'll admit that I don't either but i imagine that there is reasoning behind their decisions (beyond that of making cold hard cash). Imagine that the Welsh Asembly/NRW/FC said that they could use the land. It's not perfect but they could work with it. Maybe that meant some sacrifices e.g. the haul road is a pre-existing forestry track, therefore it likely wasn't built with efficient uplifts in mind. Presumably it is longer than the road at Antur. A macadam surface would cost hundreds of thousands. More so if they were to construct a new road straight up the hillside. As for the location of the visitor centre relative to the uplift, again, maybe they just had to work with what they were given - its current location is possibly the only suitably flat parcel of land which wouldn't need regrading (again, £££).
I don't wish to argue for the sake of it but it's a bit harsh to cry cynical without weighing things up.
Maybe I'm a bit of a cynic and while I might not go as far as Northwind I can certainly see where he's coming from.
Antur really feels like they are trying to give you the maximum bang for your buck, BPW 'feels' like they are trying to make as much money as possible with the least amount of wear on the trails.
I used to go quite a lot, not so much these days, only if a group I want to ride with decide to go there, were as I used to instigate rides there. I'll still go and enjoy riding the trails, but certainly feed more jaded about the whole experience. Frustration that it just doesn't feel efficient, and paying more money for less runs.
Edit: I was always first bus till last bus, so the reduced hours will certainly make me reevaluate the VFM.
Building an unneccesary asphalt road in a forest. What a stupid thing to do. This thread has gone full mental.
I'm there with laddo 3 weeks tomorrow, so i will report back to this very thread with, busyness of uplift, busyness of uplift during lunch for the drivers, number of runs and whether we got kicked off the outside seating whilst eating one of our own sandwiches whilst no doubt consuming their chips at the same time!
I really like BPW and think they've done a great job considering the complexities of building and running such a big operation. But the shorter hours is downright annoying. I know the number of people riding drops towards the end of the day but why can't they run fewer buses then?
To be honest, I tend to avoid BPW these days because the uplift is bobbins and way to slow. I get way more runs at Revo, Stiniog and BMC which means more bang for your buck. I'm less concerned about the café etc and more concerned about getting as much riding in as I can.
I liked trails like Fifty Shades but you may as well finish in another county - it's a bloody mission back to the start of the uplift and costs you a run or so I'm guessing.
"I liked trails like Fifty Shades but you may as well finish in another county – it’s a bloody mission back to the start of the uplift and costs you a run or so I’m guessing."
Suddenly it's not seeming like such a silly idea taking my ebike on an uplift day...
3 years ago you could get 11/12 runs for less money.
I managed 12 runs last time I was there in August, and that included an hour's lunch, and a slightly late start.
Was on my own though, so less faffing.
I've done 8 runs in a day with a long lunch, lots of faffing and not trying to get on the first or last bus. What on earth are you lot on about? You can easily do 10 runs in a day with the new hours. Does anyone really need more than that?
JP
Did 8 runs on Saturday, stopped for a sandwich at lunch and didn't do first or last lifts so I don't see why 10 or 11 runs wouldn't be impossible. Could even have maybe got another 2 in at the end as we stopped at 4pm due to being so unfit.
What was a bit of a ball ache was the big new troop carrier jobbie - great that it takes loads of people, bad that it the holds up all the other busses as its SO F-ING SLOW. It did end up being a bit of a bus-centipeide going up the road. So many runs though its not as if the trails cant handle the traffic.
TBH the place was awesome as ever. Great runs, great chat between riders, only other negative was that as the cafe was closed there was a tent set-up doing the food outside, we got proper lucky with the weather as it was pretty much clear all day, but if it had been raining they would have run out of space pretty quick.
That and there wasnt a space inside to have a traditional bike park Ale after, but you know 1st world problems and all.
Looking forward to heading back when its warmer!
Thanks for that 🙂
Did they have a sign or anything up regarding the cafe re-opening date ?
It's a big bike park so 10 runs means you've still only done half the runs and when you consider that you need one run on any given trail to recce it, suddenly doesn't feel like so much...
Can't see anything in their disclaimer where you're signing away your reproductive rights or house. Just sensible stuff to protect themselves from people who break themselves through no fault of BPW. BPW still have a duty of care, and liability if you are injured because of their negligence.
The £50 'fine' for trespassing is a bit fanciful, and presumably for deterrent purposes against piss-takers. Obviously if you can start fining people on the spot for trespassing, then I need to take my wallet when I head out in a minute...
In the end the market will decide whether BPW has a good offering at the price compared with the alternatives.
The cafe closed on the 4th Feb and will be shut for a few weeks according to their Facebook page.
There are so many trails, only looking at the trail map now do I realise how many we didnt hit.
Really surprised how quiet the trails are once on them. We caught a few groups of riders, but nothing like Cannock etc where you are constantly catching / being caught by groups.
Oh, and there were a lot of ambulances and Mtn rescue out on Saturday. Be careful kids!
Went today and had a good time. Managed 10 runs without really going for it and taking a leisurely lunch break. There were only two buses running but bar two runs, I managed to jump on one pretty much as soon as I got to the uplift each time. There was a point briefly where one of the two drivers had to down tools due to his "tachograph"", "drivers hours" or some such, which meant a 10 minute wait. Mildly annoying and you'd have thought they'd have some contingency for this, but it didn't affect things massively. Although the cafe is closed, they were serving a limited menu from a tent at the front of the building. I think it is a pretty good facility and fairly good value, especially midweek when it's cheaper.
Re Northwinds comments. I agree with the issues 100%, however I don't believe its deliberate or cynical, just incompetence.
nickfrog
Member
Yes a lot of mentalness indeed, including blaming them for the topography of the place.
Never did that.
nickfrog
Member
Building an unneccesary asphalt road in a forest. What a stupid thing to do. This thread has gone full mental.
Never suggested that either.
By all means disagree with what I said but don't take issue with what I didn't.
I thought the tarmac uplift road at Antur was paid for by the zip wire business?
Tarmaccing the uplift would be a nightmare in planning and drainage and cost shedloads. And that stupid van they just bought would destroy it in seconds.
It's not a simple as getting the local traveller to bung 30mm of cheap tarmac down any more.
And yea I thought the antur uplift was by others too.
New management there are making some weird decissions. Airshotz have been told to finish.
Why would you want to do all the trails there in one session anyway?! I've been a few times and still haven't ridden most of the blacks. I completely ignore blue belle and a few of the blues/reds becuase they just aren't my bag. I get that you might be excited and want to ride "all the trailz!11!!", but you're better off "gitting gud" at a few of them, clearing jumps/awkward bits in my opinion anyway.
Interesting, I am the first person to agree that people should pay to when stuff has been built and the people you see parking on the road outside trail centres just to get away without parking fees etc are pretty sad. However this from their website is laughable.
Any rider caught tresspassing on the trails without a valid pass will be fined on the spot, this will be enforced by our marshalls.
I would be interested to see how this is legal or enforceable. Any attempt at detaining or forcing people from the site would be an assault.
I was stopped there once, when I was climbing, by a teenager "marshal" who wanted to see my wrist band, luckily I needed a rest otherwise I would have just ridden on.
The same reason why private landowners can impose "fines" for parking. It isn't actually a fine, it is an estimate of the damage they have suffered from an act of trespass (a civil wrong, not a criminal one). That may not apply to the fire-roads, which may remain subject to NRWs open access policy. (I am assuming the legal arrangements between NRW and BPW will mean it is BPW who have the right to take this action, not NRW. If you started on the trees with your chainsaw, it would likely be NRW on your case though.)
I don't see why it's an issue.
If you bunked into Wembley you'd expect to be thrown out, fined, charged, if you got on a train without a ticket you'd expect a fine etc....
Why do people expect to ride on BPWs trails with no need to pay ?
Why do people expect to ride on BPWs trails with no need to pay ?
Well I agree, its low.
I just don't see how it can be enforced. Civil fines need to be claimed from someone, you have no reg no on your bike, nor forehead, I just don't see how they can do it. Plus some of the fireroads are public access.
In my mind I have a form of dualism, I think going on BPW or any other place purpose built for fun and not paying is bad, however I think anything more than a word with the person doing it is just as bad. EG anything physical.
however I think anything more than a word with the person doing it is just as bad. EG anything physical
Well yes.. "You need to pay a fine"... "eeeeermmmm no, bugger off"..
It then starts getting complex. Sure many people would not get a bit fisty with the ranger/person, but some may be very much inclined to start giving him a kicking.... Realistically all they could do is kinda shuffle you off the premises...
Exactly, that's my point, its pretty distasteful to have the statement on their website in the first place. It makes me not want to go there.
Despite living 20 mins from BPW I've lost all interest in going since the price hikes and this is just the icing on the cake. It's so hard to justify £10 a pop to pedal up and the uplift is getting slower and slower.
When it first opened and the prices were actually pretty reasonable and the uplift was much faster, I remember getting 12-13 runs a day even with the lunch break. I appreciate the investment they're making on the trails but at the same time when most of their launch money came from EU funds and last years trail revamp from the national grid, it's much harder to justify the price hikes and now reduced service (with the aim of cutting costs) imo.
Some appear to be reading a lot into the word "enforce". The situation would have to be escalated over a number of visits. An honourable person, who wanted to challenge their right to charge, would of course volunteer their name and address so that the matter could be taken up legally. If someone persisted in trespassing and not co-operating, they could be photographed, if they drove to the site their the reg. number noted and so on, leading to identification, a court case and an injunction. Breach of the injunction would lead to a fine or imprisonment.
So fine if you feel happy with just riding off into the distance, but if you do it often enough then ultimately action would be taken. And remember, all it takes is one high-profile test case where the culprit is made to suffer and the rest will be discouraged. So don't think you won't be pursued because the cost of them pursuing you would be more than the loss you cause. It doesn't work quite like that.
I have no connection with BPW at all btw, but I used to enforce other peoples' rights for a living and so I am aware of the commercial logic behind it. If they had a problem with freeloaders and came to me for advice, I would advise them to pick the most clear-cut and least sympathetic target and come down on them like a ton of bricks in the most public way possible, no quarter given.
Greyspoke, that's exactly what I mean, I know all about the methods you describe from my mothers days as a rambler (hisss) where they used to challenge landowners in the south east all the time.
Which is why I made the point that "enforcement of fines on the spot" that is just practically and legally impossible.
Just to repeat, I didn't suggest tarmaccing the road, I just said that's what Antur did to improve theirs. There's plenty of other ways to do it, not least putting the purpose built uplift circle in the right place, or stopping building new trails that end a horrible pedal away
(Antur's tarmaccing pre-dates the zipwire by a fair bit- it was planned before Titan was announced though I don't know who/how it was all funded in the end)
JackHammer
Member
Why would you want to do all the trails there in one session anyway?! I’ve been a few times and still haven’t ridden most of the blacks. I completely ignore blue belle and a few of the blues/reds becuase they just aren’t my bag. I get that you might be excited and want to ride “all the trailz!11!!”, but you’re better off “gitting gud” at a few of them, clearing jumps/awkward bits in my opinion anyway.
It's the same thing surely? If you want to git gud at the trails then riding them more is how you do it, ie doing more runs in your day.
Despite living 20 mins from BPW I’ve lost all interest in going since the price hikes and this is just the icing on the cake. It’s so hard to justify £10 a pop to pedal up and the uplift is getting slower and slower.
When it first opened and the prices were actually pretty reasonable and the uplift was much faster, I remember getting 12-13 runs a day even with the lunch break. I appreciate the investment they’re making on the trails but at the same time when most of their launch money came from EU funds and last years trail revamp from the national grid, it’s much harder to justify the price hikes and now reduced service (with the aim of cutting costs) imo
£32 for an 8 hour day... there's not many other activities you can do for £4 for an hour. Swimming baths are about a Tenner.. hell, even a bus to the supermarket would cost more... But when you think about what you get for the money, it's remarkable value.
If we do a motorbike trackday it's £200 for the day now (Silverstone GP) and you get less track-time per day than trail time at BPW.... so for £32... bargain... really really is.
Yeah I think the price is OK. Its a pretty extensive facility and it is well maintained.
£32 for an 8 hour day… there’s not many other activities you can do for £4 for an hour. Swimming baths are about a Tenner.. hell, even a bus to the supermarket would cost more… But when you think about what you get for the money, it’s remarkable value.
If we do a motorbike trackday it’s £200 for the day now (Silverstone GP) and you get less track-time per day than trail time at BPW…. so for £32… bargain… really really is.
£42 for an uplift day on the weekend, which is at least a fiver more compared to FoD, Antur, Revo etc. Sure they have more facilities but surely the bike shop and cafe should be self funding. It's less about the price but more about how they've doubled the price of a pedal pass and added £12 to the cost of the uplift since opening, knowing everyone going for a weekend away will continue to pay, but making it substantially more expensive for locals to have an afternoon ride there for example.
weeksy
Subscriber
£32 for an 8 hour day
10-4 isn't 8 hours. Have a mechanical of any description and a good % chunk of your time evaporates too
I thought they had a locals discount scheme?
TBH it's not the price, for me, I think it's awesome value despite my criticism. It's more that it's something that we do on holiday, and so I'd rather make more of my day. I'd pay more for a better uplift service.
(I think this is a pretty fair comparison- FOD and BMCC are pretty nearby and I've never ended a day at BPW as knackered and basically sated as I do at those two. Or Inners for that matter- which has a similarly shitty uplift road but gives you big returns in other ways, with the sheer amount of riding in every run)
Now lucky to get 8 so shorter hours it’s down to 7.
Blimey I did 7 runs in the pissing wet last year, and I took a long lunch, and slacked off early
Have a mechanical of any description and a good % chunk of your time evaporates too
Hardly BPW's fault if your bike breaks though...There are some people determined to not have fun...You do know that's what it's for, right?
Hardly BPW’s fault if your bike breaks though
Thanks for pointing that out. However, it is another reason why a reduction in hours is bad news for riders.
While quality can't be measured by statistics, here are some numbers from a map:
vertical uplift
BPW 233m
FoD 136m
Antur S. 204m
e.g.17 runs at FoD is equal to 10 at BPW.
Pedal from end of terrys belly to uplift: 200m
Pedal from van to top of launchpad: 500m
The only uplift I have bailed early from as I was absolutely done in from the unrelenting number of runs (yes I know I can take a break) was Antur. Maybe it was all the pedalling from the uplift to the runs and back from the runs to the uplift pick up point. It always feels like there's a lot more dead time at BPW than FOD or Antur.
Over the last few years I have been getting the impression that the uplift drivers at BPW are doing everything in their power to drive up the hill as few times as possible.
ayjaydoubleyou
Pedal from end of terrys belly to uplift: 200m
Pedal from van to top of launchpad: 500m
Um, you realise that from the van to the top of launchpad is flat/slightly downhill? while the pedal from the bottom trails at BPW is certainly not. Who measures the difficulty of bike riding in metres travelled?
I think you're also discounting the singletrack climb at the end of terry's belly, ie just counting it from the road.
Local.
They used to have riders drive the busses that understood the riders needs.
Now they have fat old guys more concerned about wrapping the ends of the straps around your grips.
WTF is that about?
They used to have riders drive the busses that understood the riders needs.
Now they have fat old guys more concerned about wrapping the ends of the straps around your grips.
WTF is that about?
A bit harsh. Probably not the most exciting job in the world and I doubt they get paid much more than minimum wage. Yet still they are amiable enough if you make the effort to chat and treat them with a bit of respect instead of focusing on how fat and old they are.
Not really blokeuptheroad.
I pay money to get taken to the top of the hill so I want a streamlined efficient service.
I ride uphill for free every weekend.
Fair enough, we all have different expectations in life I suppose. I think they are decent blokes earning a crust doing a tedious and thankless job well enough all things considered. I'm sure people mocking their age and BMI motivates them no end.
Always been pretty happy with the drivers tbh. I mean, the Flyup 417 guys are in another league but they're really the exception. I think BPW's obsession with checkig and doublechecking probably comes partly from that time someone's bike fell off the trailer and was never seen again, that sort of thing gets under your skin a bit.
what is the average time to get down ?
4-5 minutes
I'll wager it's over 10 mins. The KOM on Sixtapod/Willy waver, arguably the quickest route from top to uplift, is over 5 minutes.
I have found that I've been sat in a full bus at the bottom for 5-10 minutes on recent trips with no obvious explanation as to why. I would have thought with the uplift road widening it would mean they can set off at any interval. It almost seems like they've been told to go in convoy so you have to wait for 3-4 buses to load before you can set off.
Always been pretty happy with the drivers tbh. I mean, the Flyup 417 guys are in another league but they’re really the exception. I think BPW’s obsession with checkig and doublechecking probably comes partly from that time someone’s bike fell off the trailer and was never seen again, that sort of thing gets under your skin a bit.
Say what? :O
They used to have riders drive the busses that understood the riders needs
It is driving some sweaty blokes up a hill without crashing and without any bikes falling off the back, what exactly would the drivers be do differently if they were riders? Would it make you feel better if the drivers had matching Troy lee pajamas, a hat on backwards and they railed the corners on the way up the hill?
Perhaps understand that you are keen to get as many runs into your day as you possibly can? Every other uplift I have ever been on seems to get this so why not BPW?
Best uplift drivers were the aggregate truck drivers on the old Dragon DH days. Could be as scary as the ride down.
4-5 minutes
Rubbish... unless you're Sam Hill 🙂
The quickest descents are around that time, such as Sixtapod - Willy Waver etc; most are 8-10mins though, and Terry's Belly is the longest at 10mins++
hooli
Member
It is driving some sweaty blokes up a hill without crashing and without any bikes falling off the back, what exactly would the drivers be do differently if they were riders? Would it make you feel better if the drivers had matching Troy lee pajamas, a hat on backwards and they railed the corners on the way up the hill?
😂 Thanks for a morale boosting mid morning chuckle 👍
The blues may well be the fastest trails but they are the longest.
If you ride blacks top to bottom you can do it in 5 mins
Perhaps understand that you are keen to get as many runs into your day as you possibly can?
This very thread (sadly) proves that not everyone feels this way.
If everyone was still queuing up at 4pm, I imagine they would change their tune.
Perhaps understand that you are keen to get as many runs into your day as you possibly can?
You don't need cyclists for that, just a plan from management and a word with the drivers to say leave at XX time even if the bus isn't full etc.
terrys belly 10 mins+ ??
i can get down there in 6 mins ish and i dont think i've ever had a clean run.
it's pretty much 6 minutes of tedium too, left berm, right berm, left burm, right berm. . .
only on stw could people complain about the drivers being fat and old offering what seems like a good service Bet them makes them happy to do their job. Surely mtb is about being part of a friendly inclusive community.
.
it’s pretty much 6 minutes of tedium too, left berm, right berm, left burm, right berm. . .
God I hate Terrys Belly...
I've always found the drivers to good, last time I went one of the old boys kept cranking up the stereo and calling it the party bus. Another one had classic FM playing, was very relaxing ride back up.
Paceman
Terry’s Belly is the longest at 10mins++
Maybe if you include the pedal over the top and the climb out at the bottom.
The bottom line is this, however good, or poor the service, reducing the uplift operating times reduces the service that you get.
Some will finish before the day finishes regardless, they will be unaffected
Some will want to ride non-stop all day and get in as many runs as possible, that will be fewer, regardless if they were capable of 20 runs or 6 runs in a day.
Others will take their time a bit, space out their runs to keep fresh doing the same number over longer, they will get less chance to rest, or fewer runs.
Some will have a mechanical, and want the time to catch up on their value for money
They sell lots of tickets, and run lots of busses (esp at the weekend) compared to the competition so they must be doing something right, even if its just the marketing!
TBH it wouldn't upset me if more and more people started using the other excellent uplift venues around the country, I am sure they would welcome the business, and if it encourages them, and even new venues because people start looking elsewhere, then great.
vote with your feet, if you still think BPW is good value for what you get and are happy, go there, if not, go somewhere else!
Personally, I have always been a bit frustrated at how slow the uplift is at BPW, as said above there feels like there's quite a bit more dead time than other places.
Its towards the more expensive end of the uplift venues (if not the most) but it does have many trails.
I prefer other venues, but still go there as others I ride with love it, maybe we will get to go other places more often
b45her...
Have a look at Terry's Belly full run on Strava, the fastest of all time out of nearly 15,000 riders is 8min50 ...and yes I know not everyone uses Strava, but only the top 60 riders have done it in 10mins or less. You could get yourself an easy KOM there mate 😉
Look again at "Terry's Belly Full Run", like I say it includes the link trail at the top, and the climb out to the fire road at the end, you're talking about 2 different things. The actual descent has a 6 minute KOM, I just looked and even I did it in 9 minutes despite stopping twice and probably making a total arse of some of the berms.
the KOM of the actual descent is 5 mins, ive done a 6 and could probably shave a few seconds of that with a clean run and trying a bit.
Probably not the most exciting job in the world and I doubt they get paid much more than minimum wage. Yet still they are amiable enough
Holy shit. I was going to say something similar to this on page 1, but thought it so ****ing obvious I didn't bother. Like, anyone would need [i]that[/i] explained to them. Jeez there are some moany ****ers on here. Piss off and ride somewhere else if you don't enjoy it eh? Simple.
Ten till four does seem a little stingy but I do love riding there and I'm sure will go at least a couple of times this year. Drivers, trails, cafe and shop have all been good for me. Life is so much more cheerful when you are easily pleased 🙂
b45her
Member
the KOM of the actual descent is 5 mins,
Is that one not just from the fire road?
Look again at “Terry’s Belly Full Run”, like I say it includes the link trail at the top, and the climb out to the fire road at the end, you’re talking about 2 different things. The actual descent has a 6 minute KOM, I just looked and even I did it in 9 minutes despite stopping twice and probably making a total arse of some of the berms.
The thing that was being talked about initially though was how long it takes to get from top (uplift drop off) to bottom (uplift pickup) so yes, you do include the link trails and the climb, because that's how long it takes.
The uplift pickup isn't at the bottom. And you yourself said "descents"
I do wonder why some of the posters have ever returned to bpw as they seem to dislike it massively. Good heads up re the cafe though, will check the website before we go in two weeks as laddo is a pain in the arse if he gets hungry!