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Still going on and still as annoying! 😣 My Kona Remote Control needs new headset bearings after less than 18 months 🤔 but not as simple as 2 new cartridge bearings. It's an FSA No 57B? 🙄 Turns out this has loose balls in a cage and the shape of the cups means a cartridge won't fit properly. ( I've learnt that from an old STW post so a whole new headset, so once again it's the old chestnut a few shiny bits you can see and hide the Swiss Cheese away! Also got 6 frame bearings shot as well so same principle I guess.
Contrast that with the Hope headset on my 2012 bike, dropped the forks out yesterday gave it all a clean and regrease but to be fair they were fine. I'm mot saying bike company's should go Hope just not the cheapest.
Replace caged balls with loose balls, keep it well greased and adjusted and it'll be fine.
Sealed bearings are 'great' as you fit and forget them and you throw them away and replace - don't even really need to grease anything.
Loose balls are very good and should last if well maintained. They are also really cheap - about 2 quid or so for enough bearings for both races...sealed bearings aren't that cheap.
Ditch the cage, get quality grease and they'll last ages.
I’m mot saying bike company’s should go Hope just not the cheapest.
they will only do that if customers are willing to pay more for things that aren't visibly better. Having a better fork or derailleur is something that people notice when they look at the catalogue, headset is not.
Headsets are a consumable item like tyres and chains. They take hammer, get wet, get jet washed and the grease can degrade and/or wash out. The best can last for a lifetime, the worst can also be fine if you look after them.
get jet washed
There's your problem, you're blasting dirt and water into the bearings. Use a stiff brush to brush off dirt and mud and you'll find that bearings last much longer.
Never jet washed a bike in my life!
People do though and that's why they're regarded as consumable by the industry.
Until recently never owned a Jet washer, just bought a 2nd hand one from a neighbour. Used once to clean paving slabs NOT bike(s). You see the point I'm making, headset chosen by manufacturer less than 18 months it's toast, Hope headest chosen by me still fine after over 7 years. Same cleaning maintenance regime for both bikes.
As I said I wouldn't expect Hope to be fitted as standard but maybe something a little bit better than what was, ie cartridge bearings, better seals etc. What would that add to the cost of a £4K bike? A tenner?
Back last year when bike was a lots less than a year old I got my LBS to give the forks a once over. At the time mechanic said about headset, he said I've done the best I can with it but give it a few more months and it'll be toast. He was right (and before you ask he knows his onions!)
Err, you've misread/partially quoted what he (assumption) wrote. He's talking about the potential abuse not his cleaning regimen.
As @DickBarton says, loose/caged bearings can be just as good as sealed cartridges, they just need a bit more care in installation.
Sorry, that's a generic "you're", as in "people who do that".
What would that add to the cost of a £4K bike? A tenner?
I agree with the sentiment but frankly, it's a business and if they can get away with it, they will.
To address the above. They price bikes generally to a price point (I haven't bought a new MTB for ages so don't know what they are anymore, but 'everyone' is around these points) Spending a tenner more on a headset doesn't mean you can charge £1010 if everyone else is at £1000....human nature prevails. So that tenner comes out of your bottom line. Do that for 10,000 bikes and that's £100K lost profit. I just googled and Trek sell 1.5 million bikes per year......
If the headset is something you care about just put a Hope headset on the bike from new. If not then just replaces bearings.
I used to have to replace the lower bearing on my internal headset bikes after every winter as the water and grit went straight in all through winter. Was definitely a consumable.
I currently have a frame with an external Chris King headset so hoping that will fair better.
What would that add to the cost of a £4K bike? A tenner?
Thing is, there are dozens of components in a bike. When companies spec bikes to a price point, they have to juggle the quality and price of all those components. If you have £10 left to play with, should you use better quality spokes, a different saddle, lock-on grips, better tyres, etc? Most customers won't notice things like headsets, but they will notice things like derailleurs and carbon-fibre bars, so that's where the money tends to go.
It's always been the case of hiding cheaper BB, headset and hubs.
Kona are among the worst.
I'm still waiting on how the new CaneCreek bearing-less BB's work and for a copy or three to emerge. They could end up being cheap and durable.
Still going on and still as annoying!
Don't whatever you do, start rummaging around in your car, your washing machine, your laptop, your fridge, your dish washer, your telly, the remote that came with it. Your oven, your microwave...Christ sake the astronauts of the Apollo mission used to joke that the Saturn 5 rocket was made from 10 million contracts; all handed to the lowest bidder. Cornflakes is literally an empire made off the back of using the stuff that some production worker got wrong...
Companies have always done this, they will continue to do it. This shouldn't come as a massive surprise to anyone.
Personally I'd knock it out and put a cartridge one in, preferably one with a rubber seal on the crown race, like Hope or superstar.
Loose ball headset cups are typically steel, so heavier and can scar and pit on the bearing surface, that's why most headsets and hubs have evolved to cartridge.
Threaded rod can be used if you or your mates have no headset press.
I always build up my own bikes because of manufacturer cost cutting and oem stuff that can differ greatly from the boxed version.
Loose ball headset cups are typically steel, so heavier and can scar and pit on the bearing surface, that’s why most headsets and hubs have evolved to cartridge.
As much as that sounds plausible, it isn't quite right...it was done due to demand for easier maintenance and looking after - sealed cartridge bearings are just throw-away items that then get new parts dropped in. Loose ball solution requires a bit of effort and time - which the consumer has decided they don't have.
This wasn't driven by the manufacturers deciding that sealed bearings were superior to loose balls - it was market demand driven for lack of maintenance and ease of replacement.
Exactly the same as wheel bearings - loose balls are a far better solution for wheels, but they take time and effort (and skill to get right), cartridge bearings are a 5-10 minute job maybe once every 12-18 months and requires no real skill (other than making sure the new bearings go in flush).
Market-demand requires minimal maintenance and maximum ride time - sealed cartridge bearings do that very cheaply for the manufacturer and the consumer believes they are getting a far better product as it is 'sealed' and not loose balls. So a win-win.
I'm more than happy with my cartridge bearing solution...but I'd also be quite happy with loose ball bearings in a bike as I'm quite happy to take it apart, clean, regrease and rebuild as I find it relaxing (I know many who don't though!).
Unsure what is up with me as I appear to have woken up and gone on a mild ramble...sorry.
Saturn 5 rocket was made from 10 million contracts; all handed to the lowest bidder.
That was the good old days. Now any military contracts are spread across as many different congressional districts as possible to make it nearly impossible to cancel them.
I think the cheakiest thing here is the spec list. Having googles FSA 57b the only way that I know that it's a loose ball headset is from another thread on here from some one with the same problem. The fsa 57e is a cartridge bearing after market model. So it look like kona is telling you what they are selling you but in reality they aren't
On the other hand I hadn't realised this was an ebike. The spec sheet does seem to shout built down to a price. I think ebikes are fundamentally expensive things to build up. So whilst £4000 grand on a bike should leave money for a good headset the same money for an ebike leaves less wiggle room in the spec
Cartridge bearings are the true cost cutting measure. Quicker and easier to fit.
Cup and cone will outlast any cartridge if properly maintained, but are actually more difficult to fit on a production line as they need more fiddly set up.
Modern hub designs with the thru axles and BBs don't lend themselves to CandC bearings easily, so we're stuck with them there. Also the variable axial and lateral loading of a headset means a cup and cone is a better. Actually a taper needle bearing is best, but very £££.
Cheers dick, but I almost went back to sleep half way through that pedantic rant. christ, people on here will literally argue over anything, there could always be two reasons you know.
Ampthill, I'm the same as you re the spec of that headset. Obviously I knew previously as mechanic pointed it out but the only link to the 57B was that STW thread as you say. I guess I was under the illusion that as it said FSA on the headset it would be decent. After all the Orbit and the Pig were always decent. Obviously they are also capable of building down to a price 🙄
That made me laugh. Nice one.
Spending a tenner more on a headset doesn’t mean you can charge £1010 if everyone else is at £1000….human nature prevails. So that tenner comes out of your bottom line. Do that for 10,000 bikes and that’s £100K lost profit. I just googled and Trek sell 1.5 million bikes per year…
This.
Although my Trek Fuel EX is one of the only mainstream off-the-shelf bikes I've bought in recent years that had decent parts throughout despite being the base model! Cartridge headset, decent pivot bearings and cartridge hubs. Nothing needed replacing for 3 years and 2000 miles in all weathers. My cheap Voodoo had a stupid loose ball headset that you couldn't split to service without breaking it but had a Deore 1x10 drivetrain on it. I'd rather the better drivetrain and a cheap headset, a new headset cost me £13 for a sealed Brand X one, a better drievtrain would be a lot more expensive. Look for the cost savings and decide whether they're acceptable to you or not. Sometimes the sums can make the more expensive bike where you can change the spec cheaper in the long run.
Every company will penny-pinch if it saves them money. An example that I regularly was when Royal Mail changed the weight limit where you switched from a standard letter to a large one. The standard Bank cheque/paying in books weighed 5g under the old limit but just over the new one. Took a while for an employee of one to spot this so suggested they reduce the number of papers in each book to get the weight down, so every book went from 20 pages to 15. Saved IIRC 12p per book sent out, multiply that by the volume they sent every year and it was a significant amount. The employee who suggested it was given a bonus of a percentage of the saving for the first 6 months or year (can't remember which), came to over £600. That bank was Barclays, the employee was me.
On the other hand it's nice when you see a bike that's been specced with a bit of thought.
I saw a £2k-ish bike the other day which I think had Sram NX shifter and mech but the lighter GX cassette. Think it was a Radon.
It's more usual to see brands go the other way and downgrade the cassette in favour of a posher rear mech for showroom (or website) appeal.
Most customers won’t notice things like headsets, but they will notice things like derailleurs and carbon-fibre bars, so that’s where the money tends to go.
Except they do eventually. More than anything it seems that most of the big companies have just abandoned the idea of brand loyalty?
The fsa 57e is a cartridge bearing after market model.
Which is also a pile of poo. I had 2 both fitted at the "factory", neither was even close on sphericity on either cup.
But here's the rub ... FSA may or may not make some decent components but I'd just avoid any brand that uses FSA and FSA as a brand. The deal would need to be amazing to tempt me.
In the same way I know WTB must make some decent tyres.... but the OEM specials gave me a negative experience and I've not bought their tyres since.
This wasn’t driven by the manufacturers deciding that sealed bearings were superior to loose balls – it was market demand driven for lack of maintenance and ease of replacement.
Exactly the same as wheel bearings – loose balls are a far better solution for wheels, but they take time and effort (and skill to get right), cartridge bearings are a 5-10 minute job maybe once every 12-18 months and requires no real skill (other than making sure the new bearings go in flush).
Market-demand requires minimal maintenance and maximum ride time – sealed cartridge bearings do that very cheaply for the manufacturer and the consumer believes they are getting a far better product as it is ‘sealed’ and not loose balls. So a win-win.
Like 90% of MTB riders I don't care about rolling resistance on sealed bearings compared to tyres... how else are they "superior"? [SRAM/Shimano always point to less rolling resistance]
How much does it cost to replace a worn bearing race in a hub with loose balls vs just replacing a sealed bearing? I assume its possible but expensive.
Headsets, I care even less about drag from bearings.
id be happy with 18months tbh. its a cheap and easily replaceable part.
More than anything it seems that most of the big companies have just abandoned the idea of brand loyalty?
I'd guess about 20 years after their customers though. Brand loyalty is long since dead.
How much does it cost to replace a worn bearing race in a hub with loose balls vs just replacing a sealed bearing?
So if you don't maintain a C&C hub, how much more expensive than maintaining a cartridge one is it? Yeah it's more expensive, but equally if you bork a cartridge hub it isn't cheap either.
The cones on a C&C hub don't die if you look after it. It's the same reason people want plastic window frames not wooden. It's not that wood isn't perfectly good, it's that they don't want to have to paint them.
The "need" for cartridges is because people are lazy and don't want to do maintenance (then moan their IPhone is useless because one component died and should be serviceable).
(for clarity I'm also lazy and would choose cartridge over C&C but not because C&C isn't a good choice, cartridge just suits me better. I've had both over the years a stripping and greasing once every 6 months kept a set of xtr hubs running fine on the same balls for about 4 years before they needed replacing, for less than a pound)
I think it really depends on what type of person you are, if you’re the type who wants something to ‘just work’ then cartridge bearings are fine, with the added benefit of being quick and easy to replace.
If, otoh, you’re the type who expects things to last a lot longer and who is willing to do the associated maintenance, C&C bearings are more likely to be your thing.
I bought a headset in the 90s, a cheap fsa Ahead type, with loose ball bearings and a rudimentary plastic lip seal. That headset has been on 2 frames and done many many thousands of miles, with nothing more than a 6 monthly application of fresh grease.
I think that ‘Better’ is more a point of view, and everyone (Naturally) thinks their point of view is correct.
Edit: i think 18 months is acceptable for a headset, if you didn’t grease it when new.
I can guarantee there would have been virtually no grease in it from the factory.
I have never had a set of cup and cone bearing that haven't pitted. Even if the maintenance and sealing was enough to keep the greese looking clean. Now some one on here might have a pair of 10 year old hubs running sweetly with cup and cone bearings I'd love to hear about which they were. But but now when i read in a review "Deore hubs there heavy but with care they'll last forever" has never actually tested this theory, they just repeated it.
Cut a 2" piece (section) of inner tube and stick it over the bottom race... Bearings last for ages that way... I tend to do it on all my bikes.
Though all my bikes are still 1"&1/8th so smaller diameter than tapered ones. And I still use tubes, so have a supply of old tubes for the purpose..