[Closed] Bike / frame deal breakers and oddities

Nothing is in the ‘it has/doesn’t have X, so I won’t buy it’ group for me, IMO that’s ridiculous, I look at the whole picture.

The name Suntour.

High seat tube/seatmast. It's 2021, if you design a bike that can't take a long dropper post (except for an XC race bike) then you don't know what you're doing. I mean, I ride a 2015 model frame, I sized up by one size and I can still fit 190mm of post in it, because the designers had some foresight. But it's obvious some designers don't even have nowsight.

Superboost for sure, for now at least. It's just pointless bollocks. But since we've just been through a standards war and have settled on a (equally pointless) new winner that's probably the ideal time for some dick to launch a new one with no real benefits and massive downsides and for it to inexporably take over...

Lack of tyre clearance. THere's no reason for a frame not to be able to take a decent size tyre. Especially not in these post-stupidity days of boost.

Depends entirely on the bike. For me, I like the range of 2x drivetrains, but that's not a deal breaker for an off-road bike. Also, having a dropper post with at least 5" travel. Giant Anthems have 27.2 mm posts, so that limits the dropper post options. Not a deal breaker for an XC race bike, but a big consideration for a trail bike for me.

The name Suntour.

I have some Epicon forks on my hack bike. They're pretty good for a cheapish fork. I'd take a high-end Suntour fork over the bottom-end Rockshox stuff. The bottom-end Suntour stuff is dreadful though.

I've got to be honest, the whole 'pressfit shit' is silly. We shouldn't be accepting threaded as a solution - we should be demanding better faced BB shells. Force the bike industry to actually machine at a decent tolerance. Pretty much the only people doing it are Shimano.

Things that make maintenance harder give me pause for thought.

So internal routing on a FS. And PF BB.

The things on your list are annoying but not deal breakers except the bottle mounts. Manufacturers seem to be cottoning on now so it’s way easier to fit a bottle to most frames in 2021.

I wouldn't by a bike if it had no bottle bosses or I couldn't fit a minimum of a 170mm dropper in.

Also think internally routed cables, especially for brakes are a crap idea and would be a put off but probably not a deal breaker.

Oh and a shit load of frame bearings. The wife's old Cube is 12 and it's a ball ache.

Bottle bosses don't bother me but I 100% see why it's something that should be there, unless there's a really, really good reason not to. It does fight for real estate with shocks, and small triangles are generally good...

Internal cables/hoses depends entirely on how well it's done but you get the feeling that manufacturers have learned they can do it badly and still sell bikes. When you restring a bike that does this all well, the difference is amazing. Like, little removable caps for internal cables? Yes please. Good routing for a dropper hose into the seattube? Yep. Every bike could do it, maybe 1/2 of all the modern bikes i've ever worked on do at least one bit really badly and plenty still rattle. (I mean, even some bikes that are all external manage to do it badly, with badly placed cable mounts... My C456 was hilariously badly designed for cable management)

Yeah there are compromises to make, but... Repeating myself but I think it makes a good point. Look at my #1 bike, a 2015 (I think) Trek Remedy 29. It has a pushfit but it's BB92 so easy to live with. Some internal, some external hoses but with really well thought out covers, interfaces etc (there's one spot where you can't quite control teh rear gear cable and it can rub the chainring if it moves; annoying, but the rest is all excellent and it's done that twice in 6 years). But also all the hoses etc are well protected. Takes a normal headset so can use an angleset. Does have a specific shock but at least it's there for a reason (and the suspension is absolutely fantastic). Bearings are all reasonable size and easy to swap. Not perfect but all workmanlike and sensible. All things that still get done wrong, when these are questions that were answered long ago.

But the real wins are in simple places that other bikes could do but don't and often with little sacrifice. Perfect example, since it came out we've had plus and a lot of that was sold on bigger tyre clearance- but this has a 142 rear and will take a 2.5 29er or 2.8 650b with excellent (scottish mud) clearance, or a 3.0 with tolerable clearance as long as you're 1x. It was never designed for plus tyres at all, they just made sure it had clearance for Whatevs and because they could. Not so much foresight as just designing it in shapes that use the space well and don't remove options needlessly. The rear end's still nice and narrow for heel clearance, it really made no negative compromise. But just a couple of years later we'd replace a veteran standard and half the justification would be that it'd make it possible to do what this bike already does. Insane.

The front triangle was made small enough that you can size up, at a time when enormous seatmasts were In- I'm 5'10 but I went up a size for length, and I would be fine on the XL with just a slight loss of standover clearance. And it can take an angleset. So yeah the geo is dated but by not being restrictive on sizes they give the owner choice which is why it's still in regular use. 150mm was long for a seatpost then but it was obvious that would change, so it has space for more (tops out for me at 190mm with a Oneup, because of a linkage bolt, I think it would take a longer Revive if I had a million quid for a Revive)

Again just kept options open not by doing anything genius but by always just not closing a door if they didn't have to, while other designers just built for the parts they were using right now.

There's occasionally designs that just struggle with that- frinstance an Orange swingarm is bulkier and has less flexibility in shape which is why they usually struggle with tyre clearance. Some designs need to have pivots in just the wrong place for seatposts, or shocks just where you want to have a bottle. But this is a 7 year old design (I think) that basically if you added an inch to the front centre, does things that 2021 bikes sometimes aren't as good at, for no good reason.

And that's shameful.

drop handle bars on a '90s mountain bike.

You'll ride a two legged horse but that bothers you? If it's good enough for Tomac.

You’ll ride a two legged horse but that bothers you? 🙂

Regarding Suntour. The dude who won the ebike enduro world cup last year did it on a giant with suntour suspension.
Nico Quere.

Over 30lb
About it really.

- Stupid head tube standards (Overdrive).
- Loads of suspension pivots and bearings or really small main pivots.
- Long seat tubes/masts and/or ugly braces (embrace the long droppers available).
- Poor tyre clearance (I may or may not not want to run a 2.6 tyre but the UK gets pretty darn muddy and the extra space comes in handy.
- I’m not fan of press for BBs but if everything else on the bike is what I want then I can probably live with it.
- SRAM front mechs on road bikes (unless they’ve got them sorted in the last 5 years as prior to that I’ve not for mind one that works better (or even anywhere near as well) than a cheap 105

I can't get on with the massively offset and raked seattubes. It makes bike fit a bit of a lottery, because the saddle height makes a big difference to actual top tube length. For this reason the current Santa Cruz and Specialized bikes are a no-go for me.

I tend to buy second hand which means I can't really have a rigid set of rules but I still try to keep to certain parameters.

Bottle bosses, "normal" headtube size (straight 44 or taper 44/56), threaded BB, same size seatpost to other bikes (30.9)

Press fit BB. My Scott Addict has one. Perfect bike for me except for this issue, but bought one of the last ones in the country in Lockdown 1 after writing off my road bike, so beggars couldn't be choosers.

To be fair, the original BB lasted 1500 miles of messy winter riding and washing before becoming too noisy for me to cope with. The replacement has lasted 100 miles. Taking it to an LBS today for a review of the problem

At the risk of being very petty, I have a very long memory for bike manufacturers who've been ahead of the curve with new axle standards and whatnot. That kind of shittery is never forgotten and will always make me think twice about certain brands. There's a reason why I've never owned a Giant for example.

Press fit BBs are an annoyance, but I have a bike with a BB-92 that is now five years old. The first thing that I did was to remove the SRAM BB and replace with XTR and it turns as sweetly now as it did the moment I fitted it. It's my longest lived BB by some margin, in spite of having covered a lot of miles since.

I can’t get on with the massively offset and raked seattubes. It makes bike fit a bit of a lottery, because the saddle height makes a big difference to actual top tube length. For this reason the current Santa Cruz and Specialized bikes are a no-go for me.

This is true although very few manufacturers now have seatposts that are straight from the BB to collar (on FS frames), it's not just Spesh and SC.

One hidden issue with this: Even if your seat is in exactly the right spot, the (slack) angle of the seatpost itself makes a dropper post bind.

Insufficient insertion for long dropper posts - I have 185mm Revives on both bikes and less drop would be really annoying.

Pressfit BBs can be fine if done well (BB30 for example)

It kind of undermines your argument when you chose the most poorly executed one - BB30s were designed for precision machining, sadly not achievable in most volume manufacturing facilities and bike companies not prepared to pay for it.

I have BB86/92 frames that are 10+ years without problems - the only PF standard embraced by Shimano.

No bottle cage mounts inside the front triangle does it for me.

Also, good Suntour stuff's good (we have Durolux, Auron and Aion on our bikes), shit Suntour stuff's shit. Same with any other fork brand, see RS's 30mm steel tubed Judy for a fine example of shitness.

i dont think there are any deal breakers (save for a blatently stupid design that will wear prematurely)

but it is flippin annoying that most of my spare parts bin is basically worthless now.

Last time i changed 10 bearings on my giant (having had two since Maestro first came out, and done it quite a few times), i promised myself i would have a single pivot next time.
Push fit BB never caused me any issues, but seems like its a surface to wear out that doesnt need to.

Bought a five29 5 yrs ago. much as a like the look of lots of new bikes around and about, i think i would be hard pushed not to just have another if i broke it, especially as the new ones come with bottle cages (i think?)

One hidden issue with this: Even if your seat is in exactly the right spot, the (slack) angle of the seatpost itself makes a dropper post bind.

this puts me off evils, although I think they are improving. OG following looked terrible for it.

- US brands making no concession for us rear-left brakers with their internal routing

- no bottle bosses (I'd take under downtube if the rest of the bike was good)

not a dealbreaker but something I am now aware of, frames that need blind bearing pullers to change bearings.

What are people thoughts on the long term durability of flex stays?

Shyte press fit options (BB30). BB86/92 has caused me no more challenges than a normal threaded BB.

Slack STA's. I'm tall, I don't want my saddle over the rear axle. FWIW, I also don't like the mega steep trend either, 76/77 is about bob on.

No water bottle mounts in the front triangle. Don't be lazy with the design, find a solution.

SuperBoost. In the sea with you.

Poor cable routing, generally relating to internal & not having inner tubes.

Crap frame hardware, making it a pain to swap bearings out. It shouldn't be hard.

1.8" Tapered 'e-specific' forks. Yes Vitus, you can join superboost in the sea.

cables that hang under the BB. A real pet hate of mine.

Unfinished paint / rusty bolts from new.

cables that snag/rub

main components (fork shock wheels cranks brakes etc) that are non standard.

What are people thoughts on the long term durability of flex stays?

had a 575 10 years - the flex stays were fine, the main pivot wore out first.
Brother had a Scalpel - the flex part lasted, but the stays came unbonded from where they joined the alu mainframe

You’ll ride a two legged horse but that bothers you? If it’s good enough for Tomac.

Took a while and then Finally I clicked the username.

Very nice.

Deal breakers... Ugliness... Lack of singlespeed ability.

From the OP, superboost and dodgy shock position are about the only ones there that would significantly bother me.

My last bike had a PF92 BB which lasted nearly 4 years. Then replaced with one of the screw-in versions (token ninja) which I’ve no doubt would’ve lasted even longer before I sold the bike.

Agree with Suntour, rightly or wrongly.

On a similar note, ugly welds would seriously make me think twice and I probably couldn’t stomach colours like pink unless it was crazy cheap.

Its good that we are all different.

OP - ISCG tabs being a deal breaker...I never use them and think they're a bit ugly (but don't really bother me). Since narrow wide never felt the need for something extra to keep the chain on, only comes off very very occasionally.

Despite the furore over standards personally I feel the last ten years has proven that old kit doesn't become obsolete (boostinators for example so you can run your old wheels) and only very obscure things will limit or lock things down. So just go with what suits the riding / you like. Proprietary stuff is the one thing I am cautious on as I want a bit of flexibility to adapt bikes.

Isg tabs is a weird one, 1x specific frames, given clutch mechs and narrow wide or similar area about universal these days I've no idea what purpose they're likely to serve on a new bike except decoration.

@northwind I'm sort of with you on the seat tube height but I also have the opposite issue. A 23" tube makes no sense in 2021 (though we still needed 400mm seatposts to go in those bitd) but nor does an XL frame need a seat tube and standover to suit a 5'0" rider with a 170mm dropper. The net result of which is that an XL rider can barely hit minimum insertion on a 200mm dropper and get a sensible ride height. The other disadvantage is an XL frame could have acres of space in the front triangle to allow for two normal bottles and whatever fancy suspension setup you like only it doesn't, you can only get a single standard small bottle in as its jammed right up by the head tube meaning you have to use a side load cage too. Though on the upside you can kneel astride the top tube when wrestling your bottle from the cramped main triangle.

Isg tabs is a weird one, 1x specific frames, given clutch mechs and narrow wide or similar area about universal these days I’ve no idea what purpose they’re likely to serve on a new bike except decoration.

Bash/skid plate mounting.