[Closed] Bike businesses using land that's not theirs to make a living

Coaching or corporate paid rides on land without the owners nod?

This'll go well...

Much like the boot camp trainers being banned from local parks, or required to pay for access?

The coaching thing on FC trails can be a wee bit contentious sometimes... But at the end of the day, the reason there are FC trails is for people to get out and ride on them and coaching boosts that, it doesn't take away from it. If it's someone else's trails then that gets a bit different but I reckon if it's private land that's between the business and the owner, rather than for anyone else to have much of an opinion

Personally, I think there's a line that sometimes gets crossed, I did a skills day with someone and they were teaching techniques like riding out the outside of a corner for line choice, that were pretty much incompatible with good stewardship of the trails- and I figure if you're going to use it, you have to look after it. And I came round a corner and found an entire class basically blocking a trail while they studied it, that's not too cool either. But these are really pretty minor things and on balance it's a positive.

There's a bit of unintended consequence too- like, I upset Andy Barlow at Dirtschool a while back, by sort of clumsily criticising a video they'd released- it was showing a really good way to ride a section, so the lesson itself was fine, but it was the sort of thing that people could watch and then try and apply and it'd end up causing damage. That's not what Dirtschool intended, at all, but we've seen it in the past where someone posts up a cool vid of gapping across a corner, and then a month later that corner's covered in tyre marks because peopel have tried to copy it and failed. And that's where it gets really messy and there's a sort of responsibility that goes beyond culpability.

Interesting grey area.

Pro dog walkers in parks grind my gears.

Ditto on pro dog walkers on mod land

FWIW, the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 specifically permits people to carry out commercial activity on land that's not theirs, as long as that type of activity could be carried out for non-commercial purposes too. So, MTB guiding across the land is allowed as you are still only "riding a bike".

I was going to say does this umhappiness extend to guided bike rides on RoWs?

To  MTB marathon events?

To skills coaches using trail centres?

I've no problem with the principle, if done responsibly.

Sherwood Pines charges for coaching companies on th site, although plenty try to fly under the radar.

I recently went on a foreign holiday where the company subcontract the uplift in certain areas to the companies that build and maintain the trail so that they're putting some money back into the trails and the local community.

Scotroutes beat me to it. We can up here, but be a good neighbour and user is the done thing, don't be a Muppet.

One that I have wondered about is guided rides on access land.  we have walked across Torridon a couple of times and both times saw guided groups on the trails - and in some places it was clear that the number of bikes had contributed significantly to path damage / wear / bog creation.  I really don't know what % of people riding these trails are guided but for sure its more than if there were no guided groups. 20 people in quick succession dos more damage than 20 individuals spaced apart
now as scotroutes points out this is all perfectly legal and within the spirit as well as the letter of the LRA but is there are moral duty on the guiding companies to do some path repair?  do the guiding companies contribute to path repair?  I don't know

is there are moral duty on the guiding companies to do some path repair?

At my old employer staff would be supported with time to volunteer to do things.

It was simple stuff:

- too much litter on a Tarmachan hill day? Staff member went back up on friday with empty pack and bin bags to do a proper job.

- clean any beaches while paddling lochs or rivers - we always had black bags with us.

- join in local dig days on trails as a work day.

- nip back up Drummond Hill with a spade an insert a few drains / clear a few out in winter.

- we also had two non-MBA bothies that we would visit twice a year and clean up, and if ever a group visited a bothy, we had a tidy up (we didn't stay in them, used tents)

- in addition our DofE groups had massive clean up on Loch Tay every Easter. Quite literally would fill a big skip with rubbish.

etc.

I've been pissed off a couple of times at glentress by inconsiderate coaching groups, not individual groups as such but sometimes it seems like there is one on every corner getting in the way not paying attention. Only other time it's bothered me is when a bothy was taken over by a group on a paid outdoors adventure type holiday and was being used as free accommodation. Leader tried to tell us the bothy was full and we couldn't use it which didn't go down well with me so I felt the need to school him for the next 20mins on outdoor access and general etiquette. Got up nice and early as well in the morning making sufficient noise and left the door open so the midgies could pay them a visit.

20 people in quick succession dos more damage than 20 individuals spaced apart
now as scotroutes points out this is all perfectly legal and within the spirit as well as the letter of the LRA but is there are moral duty on the guiding companies to do some path repair?

The are legally entitled to responsible access. IMHO 20 bikes at a time isn't responsible if it causes additional erosion over smaller groups, same goes for bus loads of walkers.

do the guiding companies contribute to path repair?

At least one of the companies using Torridon has been involved in path repairs.

The main problem will be with companies who don't normally operate in the area as they have no skin in the game. Having said that, if they're only there on an occasional basis then the wear/damage is pretty small in contrast to a company that uses that route regularly. There is definitely a risk of killing the goose....

To be completely honest, I can see why guides or instructors should at least let the FC or landowner know if they're taking a group to a location.  Even if there was no request to give something back, simply to allow good stewardship.  I can also see why someone that's spending money maintaining an area might think that an instructor or guide charging for their services on that area should give a little back though, maybe in time as mattOAB's example ^ or some sort of fee.  Far less justified if an area is simply woodland/working forest with no MTB infrastructure.  I can also see why this might be unpopular with guides/instructors but it's not that different from trades needing to pay to go to the tip.

RoW's is a more vexed issue potentially.  My view is that very large events should definitely consult and be prepared to be told to find another date/place but I'm really not sure how this would be policed.  Excluding damage or litter even, very large groups can effectively deny use of the RoW to anyone not part of that group and possibly even people who aren't at that event but are of the same user group.  Given how tricky a full 'closure' is to arrange, this is potentially icky ground and has potential to include club runs too, not just mass events.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Good to know scotroutes . Matt

There was an english company that did a trailquest type event in the pentlands in november one year.  They couldn't quite grasp the ethos and why some of us were very unhappy that they were running this event and damaging the trails we use.  The rangers could only advise them what paths not to use but couldn't stop them from doing the event and the organisers took this as it was fine to do it.  Lots of comments from competitors about how muddy it was and how great it was to ride these muddy trails and lots of pics of competitors covered in mud and lots of damage to paths some of which really never recovered from a couple of hundred bikes over them in a few hours.  Nothing was put back by the commercial company doing the event.  Fortunately they have not run the event again - hopefully as a result of the complaints from locals

I have also been run off a path by folks racing - this time along the Canal near Edinburgh and also had someone from the event block my way the same day - stood in the middle of the path directing traffic and wouldn't step out of my way despite me not being a part of his event

that sort of situation is not on IMO

So long as they don’t get in the way but that’s the same for any group

Rule 1 applies.

I feel anyone benefiting should put time in maintenance back.

There are some trails up on some Common land near me that haven't recovered since an off-road duathlon was run on them about a year ago.

These aren't 'official' trails, and I assume the landowner gave permission, but an attempt to repair some of the damage caused would have been nice.

They also ran some of the route up a couple of well established DH(ish) trails. No signage or tape at the top. The first I knew of it was coming around a corner half way down and riding through a load of marker tape! Could've been quite dodgy if there'd actually been racers coming up towards me.

Depends on the trails? TBH I think ROW's are fair game within the spirit of the law. Even TJ's Pentlands trailquest example, those trails aren't the locals property, it's piss poor of the organiser but each of those riders is no less in the right than TJ. You can't moan about people riding a trail and making it muddy so you can't ride it. I wouldn't go for a ride in the Chilterns and moan that the locals had been out over the winter and it was a bit muddy.

OTOH if they turned up without permission on cheeky/tolerated trails and started causing problems for locals that wouldn't be on. Conversely Gorrick (probably don't) make any money from their events and the events are what keep the grey area trails open.

As usual, Scotland seems to have its laws bang on. And because the Highlands are so ace, people do care for them when they visit.

Well done to anyone who's ever filled a bin liners with rubbish out on the hill. Well done to those of you (us) who have put something back by way of maintenance to trails, bothies or whatever. I'd really like to make more of a contribution...

When people do things in groups, they can often be, or be perceived to be, more stupid, reckless and/or selfish. Willy waving can be a contributing factor. A teenager walking down the street is fine but a group can be intimidating to some people. Put decent people together in a group to support a football team and they sometimes do things which would be completely out of character for individuals. I don't mind coaching groups providing they are considerate to others. Don't block the trail unless absolutely necessary; don't destroy the trail; don't drop litter etc etc. Consideration innit.

Nice to see a consensus on this.

the example I used - many of us don't ride those trails when wet / muddy but the locals themselves are divided over winter usage.

It down to - "don't be a dick" I suppose

I know there been issues over with FC Backnell/lockout way with one/two companies trying to do the correct thing, go through correct channels, pay for the "licence! etc. Then you get others going in and not playing ball, and FC not doing anything about even when they know who is doing it.

As long its a level playing field for that area it should be OK

The other thing depends on what insurance the instructor/company uses, some might say they have to have land owners permission.

I see F.C. land as essentially public so if they aren’t damaging it, go ahead. Same with boot camps in parks etc. If they damage the land or trail, fix it. Don’t get me started on people with huge packs of dogs and no ability to clean up after them...

I think landowners are generally fairly reasonable if people don’t take the piss. One guy near my parents had a brilliant shortcut across his land to to some trails but hated bikes taking cheeky access and leaving the gate open, so it got padlocked. Cost me a bottle of whiskey for a key...

All boils down to “don’t take the piss” I suppose.

FWIW, I contacted Yorkshire Water about doing some club coaching sessions on their (open access) land and they were happy that we were using the facility they provided and certainly didn't put any obstacles in the way. This was unpaid, non-commercial use for junior club riders, but I didn't state this on the email so I doubt it would have made a difference. I know that some companies doing commercial coaching use their facilities too, so I don't suppose they are bothered either way.

They did specifically ask for feedback on the condition of the trails so they could address any problems that were found, which I thought especially cool of them.

I would agree that much of this does come down to "don't be a dick" and it should be pretty obvious when a line has been crossed.

The other factor is the costs. Because you can use scottish land, FC Scotland charges less than a quarter of what FC England charges for the same thing, so you can understand why people would be more inclined to assist or even pay in scotland than england. The english 'Charge' is supposed to just cover admin, but it seems like alot of expensive admin is being done.

You'll probably find that any responsible coach or guiding organisation will have a permit of some kind when operating in FC land or trails centres unless on a bridleway or other RoW which are fair game.

In many parts of the 'developed' world any commercial use of public land needs resource consents / permits and a lot more red tape which tends to stifle small businesses and individual guides/coaches which I think would be a bad thing.

I get more annoyed with events than coaching. Velo29 and Yorkshire Grit are two events near me that aren't very good at taking down their signage.