[Closed] Best bang for buck training for increasing endurance?

Running.
An hour running is harder then 2 hours cycling. Vastly more time efficient and it translates well to cycling.

Don't know how to follow this thread without posting, can't see any option here on phone, but I'm interested in the answer too.

When working I do 6 days a week 12 hours a day continuously. And don't have the time to do huge long rides. So at the moment I just find the steepest longest hills near me and hit those on the road bike for 45-60 minutes.

What lunge said.

Intervals

Commute to work, lots of riding swapped for time you would have spent in the car.

You can substitute "Long Steady Distance" rides for a 20minute threshold interval, followed by an hour at LSD pace, then another interval.

For me, 90% of the long rides are just practice. Takes a while to get used to not going out hell for leather in the first hour then dropping down to an all day sort of pace and instead starting at that pace so you've still got something in the legs at the end. That and working out what Im going to eat.

Long sweet spot intervals. Not as effective as riding 6hrs zone 2 every day but pretty good if you only have 90 minutes.

The answer as ever is ...

it depends.

If you've already got a decent base then something like sweet spot intervals will do most good. Without that base you'll struggle so you are better off getting base miles in. Depending on how long before your tour you probably only need to do long weekend days every third weekend or so and that's mainly to accustom your arse to time in the saddle.

Long days in the saddle are mostly Z1 and Z2, my last long ride was 75% Z1, 15% Z2 and 10% Z3.

To an extent it depends on how long and how hard you're intending on riding this tour, if it is long and hard then working out your nutrition strategy is important.

For training this is the sort of thing I'd default to

Mon - 90-120 min zone 2 fasted
Tue - 4 x 7 min
Wed - 90-120 min zone 2 fasted
Thu - 6 x 3 min
Fri - 90-120 min zone 2 fasted
Sat - 5+hrs zone 3/4
Sun - gentle spin or rest day

Depends on your overall level of fitness and how long you have until the tour.

In general though, how you train is so much less important than just training consistently that it shouldn't really be anyone's focus. Not until you are consistently Min/maxing a) time on the bike b) sleep c) food d) recovery e) basic periodization

Two approaches - raise your top end or raise your capacity at or below ftp - both will make the work more managable.

Raising your top end is quicker but less sustainable, so if you have a short time before the tour then just do HIIT (eg sufferfest sessions) and a longer ride when you get the chance.

Building a base is more sustainable in the long run and will stay with you for longer. For time cruched athletes this is hard, but usually it involves Min/maxing time on the bike in seiler Z1 - this can be commuting, or rides with family. Some people achieve some of this benefit by training in sweet spot (ie the trainer road ethos) but realistically there just isn't the evidence base behind it and every time someone asks tr to provide some they just delete their posts or go 'but look at all of these people getting fit on our programs'(forgetting that consistency and dedication to anything will get you fit; your program is a small part of it).

Work less, spent less, cycle more.

Running.
An hour running is harder then 2 hours cycling. Vastly more time efficient and it translates well to cycling.

I detest running, cannot understand why anyone would think it was enjoyable. But if you want to get fit, that is good advice.

My observations on how I react to training is that short threshold or sweet spot work is good for shorter rides which will be predominantly fuelled by carbs. The longer rides 5hrs plus are more fat burning.

What works for me is mid week threshold sweet spot sessions and at least one big fat burner ride a week. The fat burner also requires carbs so I eat some carbs every hour on these rides. I am now used to these rides and still feel strong during hour 5 or 6. If I have only been doing the shorter/more intense sessions then come hour 4 in a long ride I struggle.

I also think it helps to do a ride the day after a long session to get your body used to riding while tired. Doesn’t need to be hard say a 2/3 hour ride. The first hour I’m usually crap then my legs start to come good.

So IMO you need to make yourself a more efficient fat burner and get used to riding tired. This time of year you can go out early doors and get a 6 hour ride in before lunch.

Running is out for me as it's just something I can't stomach doing.

I understand that laying down a good base is the key and getting the body efficient at burning fat. I think my downfall has always been that historically my riding up until 6 years ago was always 1 - 2 hour race pace MTB riding. As a result I still find a long zone 2 ride can leave me feeling whacked.

I wonder if my body is not efficient at burning fat and wants to burn glycogen.

I've always been amazed by audax riders who can do 200km and when asked how much training they've done you get a "I haven't cycled much recently" response.

I detest running, cannot understand why anyone would think it was enjoyable

You're not alone, it's not like cycling where you can get enjoyment almost straight away, pretty much due to the efficiency of a bike. It's horrible at first, but once you get a bit fitter, you get the sense of achievement which keeps you going, then fitter again and you reach the point where you can motor along at a certain pace and the enjoyment starts.

But yeah, most folk don't have the stomach to get past the hard bit.

I detest running, cannot understand why anyone would think it was enjoyable.

I run every day and I completely agree. Of the 8 or 9 runs I log in a week I reckon maybe 2, possibly 3 are "enjoyable", but the feeling 15 mins after you finish is lovely.
However, whether you like it or not, it is the most time efficient way to get fit.

I reckon doing short rides regularly is the best way for pushing endurance out. Certainly for me.

I rode LEL in 2017, longest ride in the 6 months before that was probably no more than about 30km.

Proper long events stuff of any sort is as much mental though, isn't it. Frinstance virtually no one who runs a 100 mile ultra will ever train doing 100 mile runs, but they'll know they either have or have adapted to be able to dig deep.

When doing puffer, I certainly never rode for 24 hours, pretty sure very few do.

If you’re time pressed its sweet spot training:

https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/fitness-and-training/sweetspot-training/

I believe the concept of long Zone 2 rides as training is not productive.

You generally want 1 ride a week to be building towards the kind of effort you're training for: this might be long Zone 3/4 ride or Zone 2/3 ride depending on what you're aiming for. This is training your endurance and energy system but is not just physical training it is also mental and planning training, does the drink/food you're carrying work for you, are you taking on the right amount throughout the ride, are you taking on enough electrolytes, do you know your limits/pacing and have the confidence to keep out negative thoughts when the going gets tough, are your gloves/shorts comfortable, etc.

Outside of that it's about accumulating time in Zone 2 throughout the week with some targeted high intensity sessions.

The high intensity stuff builds your threshold, obviously, and key is to be hitting those with fresh legs so you can go really hard and get the most out of them.

The Zone 2 time builds fitness, I don't really know how it works, hemocrit improvement or something, but it just works.

Personally, I found that adding this structure to my weekday riding rather than just smashing myself in Zone 3 all the time added about 10% to my FTP. If you're doing 16hrs a week lets say, you want no more than 6hrs of this to be above zone 2.

Jeepers. I need to train to do tours? Why did no one tell me years ago?

All I have ever done is pootle 30-80 miles a week then go on my annual trip of ten to 16 days riding

Just pace yourself. Rehydrate and fuel in the pub. Take your time and enjoy the tour. No need to overthink it

TJ has a point - @flanagaj, what exactly are you wanting to do? A traditional tour doesn't need any training beyond getting your arse into gear/shape.

Doing back to back long rides at the weekend is all well and good but multi-day tours are just that, multi-day. Prior to my wife doing LeJoG she extended her weekend rides "a bit", probably an hour or two but more importantly she went out and did a couple of hours on Monday and Tuesday as well. When it came to the actual ride it was days 3-5 that were the hardest, after that she was accustomed to the constant (low) effort and just pootled along: a couple of hours, café stop, a couple of hours, lunch stop, a couple of hours, café stop, ride to digs.

Also people who head off on multi-day/week/month trips aren't usually doing that as there first tour, they'll have built up to it in the same way that you do for any big endeavour. Of course some will just set out and basically bike their way into fitness, they'll just lower their expectations regarding daily distance and allow for recovery days.

The Zone 2 time builds fitness, I don’t really know how it works, hemocrit improvement or something, but it just works.

Mitochondrial increase.

last long tour i did - from vancouver to prince rupert , across to print george across several watersheds and then into and down the rockies to banff and onwards to calgary.

the first week was purgatory and i was dying . by the middle of week 2 i was flying ..... by then the wife told me the shop in the next village we would come to closed in 45 minutes and the pantry panier was pretty bare

We averaged 25mph loaded in a 2up TT and made the shop with 6 minutes to spare.

By the time we arrived in Banff i was ready to divert onto the Tour divide 😀

I'm 'training' for the Raid Pyrenean next July. Five big days with lots of climbs. Right now, all I'm doing is trying to fit in as many hours at low intensity as I can in a week. This means being prepared and organised, getting up a little bit earlier, and facing up to the inevitable pouring rain on some mornings.

It's been great though, I can now happily get up any morning of the week and go out for 1-2 hours in any weather, and almost invariably have a good ride. The reason for this I'm sure is that at low intensity you can pretty much ride through any niggling wee injuries that might put you off a high intensity session (I'm not doing intervals on the turbo with a sore knee but can happily do a 1-2 hours spin outdoors).

It also gets you comfortable on the bike, helps iron out any little position changes or equipment tweaks (especially useful for getting your saddle how you like it) and I genuinely believe I feel fitter for it.

Am looking forward to working in some high intensity stuff over the winter but in the meantime am starting to introduce long sweetspot efforts on certain climbs, satisfies the urge to put in a bit of a dig now and then so you don't get bored with the easy stuff.

I would suggest some elements of strength work, especially core - not necessarily becoming Arnie but look at functional strength, and development of muscle stamina of your core ( especially)arms and back. add in stretching as well. More too sitting on a bike ......

Combine with running.

Mitochondrial increase.

Oh thanks, that's the one - proper Jedi stuff. 🤭

For the most part the biochemical/physiological stuff gets too much for me to understand epistemically so I tend to default to a more empirical approach of listening to people who seem to be good at winning stuff 🙂

Running is out for me as it’s just something I can’t stomach doing.

but it actually works and will fit in with your time restrictions and you can do it anywhere.

depends on how bothered you are to actuaally get fit i suppose.

i hate it also (and i have to be really careful as i have dodgy ankles/back) - but being able to easily run 5k 3 days a week had a huge impact for me. everything was easier on the bike - up and down.

Always feel like I should get into running, but I'm the same, on a good day my back would probably be fine, but on a bad day it just doesn't like the jarring!

What are the benefits from a fitness perspective though? In heart rate terms I guess a half hour run is a half hour at a relatively high heart rate? Or is it just a good way to lose weight quickly?