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THere's an interesting article on PB about the new setup on the Zerode G3 which is in conjuntion with Hope on the tensioner etc.
But i'm curious as to whether people are viewing the gearbox/belt setups yet as viable in any way ?
As some may know, i've just ordered an Atherton A200, but it was a toss-up between the Atherton and a Zerode G3. But nothing really jumped out at me with the Zerode due to i guess a lack of results, lack of spares at a race weekend, etc etc...
The boy has tried both and loved both, but not timed runs on the Zerode to test that theory, but not many people have one in the paddocks so it's hard to test.
I’ve had a belt drive pinion gearbox Nicolai Ion since 2016. It does reduce unsprung weight, it does require less maintenance and it is way less vulnerable to damage than a derailleur BUT downhill bikes use smaller cassettes and mechs reducing those advantages and I’m not aware of damage to mechs being a big problem in DH racing (or is it?). My opinion after nine years of ownership is gearboxes don’t deserve much of the criticism they get but at the same time I’m not surprised they haven’t set the world on fire.
Two things I’ve reluctantly had to accept this year,
1. The belted purse has made it clear a belt and gearbox is an option not a giant leap forward
2. Fox’s Podium has proven upside down forks aren’t better on an MTB
I think you made the right choice going for the Atherton
I love the idea of one, but they are too pricey for me and I'm not riding 10,000 of mile a year so the benefit don't make up for the cost.
Although I have bent either the mech or the hangar on one bike and one 2nd hand rear mech has died on another bike in the last 2 months.
. The belted purse has made it clear a belt and gearbox is an option not a giant leap forward
is this some weird autocorrect issue or am I out of touch?
. The belted purse has made it clear a belt and gearbox is an option not a giant leap forward
is this some weird autocorrect issue or am I out of touch?
In World Cup DH there's a prize of $100,000 to the first person to win on a belted bike... As he says, this has encouraged people like Atherton and Gamux to try and increase their stake in gearbox bikes.... But as he says, in terms of results, they've not exactly set the world on fire.
They're fast and good, but so are all the other bikes... Hence, being an 'option' rather than a first choice for people.
Thank Weeksy, a spot on translation of my ramble 😀
But i'm curious as to whether people are viewing the gearbox/belt setups yet as viable in any way ?
Viable for what?
One of the lads' coaches is sponsored by Zerode. He has the enduro and DH. I asked him what he thought and he said he loves them...but I didn't chat for long.
I think we need to give it another year or two to decide about belts in DH - there are obviously a few teething problems to work out - and if Kolb had stayed on Atherton it might have been a different story already.
Can't see myself ever going over to them, but I'd love to see more teams give them a go at the World Cups.
I don't think your average person keeps a bike long enough to warrant the additional expense or see the extra lifespan as a benefit. I like the idea of one but as someone who runs a fairly cheap Deore drivetrain, it's likely to be a long time before a gearbox is a realistic possibility for me.
I've said before, but I don't really want a gearbox, I just want the current system moved around a bit.
Something like the Phaser 'gearbox' (which is just two cassettes and a front mech on a slider) on a Starling Sturn (jack drive with the main pivot also being the upper Bottom Bracket).
Not sure if all that makes sense but it seems like a simple solution to moving all the gear change mechanics away from the rear wheel.
Oli Clark won a Junior DH on the MS Zerode.
He did yes.. And it did OK in females at times too. But Oli is a brilliant rider anyway and would have done well on whatever bike..
If you look at the riders like Hatton, Madley, Waite, Harnden, Wilson, none of them really stepped higher than you'd honestly expect. Maybe even the opposite due to being on the gearbox... I thought Hatton had a disappointing season considering his talent for example. George Madley had a good season, but was that due to the gearbox bike, or in spite of it.... Mmmmm
I don't think there is any performance or competitive advantage to be had with either a gearbox or a belt drive.
I love the idea of a gearbox bike and would have bought a Zerode had they been a bit more widely available. I'm an Engineer and I see the overall durability improvement as worth going the 'extra-mile'
Belts look cool but I don't think they offer any advantage, I don't think a belt drive is any better than a chain. So I won't be bothering with that. Even if someone wins a World DH Cup race ;o)
I have no inside info or anything, but I feel Hatton might have suffered for not having that partnership with Kolb any more. They were such a great pair and I think Andreas must be the perfect team mate. He's got such a great, positive personality.
To go on even more of a tangent, I have a hunch that Kolb might get signed by Spesh for next year.
Oli Clark won a Junior DH on the MS Zerode.
He did yes.. And it did OK in females at times too. But Oli is a brilliant rider anyway and would have done well on whatever bike..
If you look at the riders like Hatton, Madley, Waite, Harnden, Wilson, none of them really stepped higher than you'd honestly expect. Maybe even the opposite due to being on the gearbox... I thought Hatton had a disappointing season considering his talent for example. George Madley had a good season, but was that due to the gearbox bike, or in spite of it.... Mmmmm
Hattie hasn't had a brilliant season in DH with injuries. She did win the opening EDR on a gearbox Nicolai though...
In the elite men I think Reece is probably the one that will bother the podium if he stay injury free.
Not doubting Charlie Hatton's abilities, but he's only been top 10 a few times, other than his World Champs win he hasn't podiumed that I can see. I think if Kolb had stayed he would have at least podiumed on the gear box.
Something like the Phaser 'gearbox' (which is just two cassettes and a front mech on a slider) on a Starling Sturn (jack drive with the main pivot also being the upper Bottom Bracket).
Not sure if all that makes sense but it seems like a simple solution to moving all the gear change mechanics away from the rear wheel.
Hadn't you noticed? We're now all removing front mechs and moving as much of the gear change mechanics TOWARDS the rear wheel, keep up! 😎
I have no inside info or anything, but I feel Hatton might have suffered for not having that partnership with Kolb any more. They were such a great pair and I think Andreas must be the perfect team mate. He's got such a great, positive personality.
To go on even more of a tangent, I have a hunch that Kolb might get signed by Spesh for next year.
Rumour I've heard is Orbea FMD....
Rumour I've heard is Orbea FMD....
Ooh right, that would be cool.
Him and Martin would make a great pair too - and some of the stoke might rub off on Tahnee if she's still racing.
I'd be a convert if I could afford/justify yet another bike. I like the Geometron GPI but it would be a pig as a trail bike compared to my Druid V2. A gravity focused, mullet version could be an option when I retire the Airdrop from DH duties.
I also really like the e-bike version with the Pinion MGU but again, it's an absolute monster in both weight and price.
I really like the Zerode but think the factory tension system is a bit jerry-rig. I've heard of people snapping pivot bolts and getting wobbly linkages. The Hope bike looks nicer but I'd wait until all those solutions are standard. Maybe wait for the G4.
Having no need for a proper DH bike is the main hurdle for me.
I'll have a gearbox/belt when they're attached to a bike I want to buy, not when I want a gearbox/belt but they're attached to something unsuitable.
I’m very curious about the Pinion MGU. I think it would be great on a commuter bike. Simple, clean and low maintenance.
I don’t have the budget or need to really justify it. But if I was flush with cash and it was burning a hole in my pocket, a commuter bike with the MGU would be near the top of the list.
I have a Pinion Ti Broken Road, Its a bike packing bike and for that use its perfect as you don't want to get caught out with a broken mech miles away from anywhere with a loaded bike. The unsprung mass thing is less of a benefit than on a hardtail. Its heavy, its expensive and offers marginally more range that 11 speed Deore which is my go to groupset which you can get an entire drive train for £150. It's an indulgence for me but I figure a Titanium bike packing is as close as a bike for life as you can get so I don't mind
you don't want to get caught out with a broken mech miles away from anywhere with a loaded bike.
Its heavy, its expensive and offers marginally more range that 11 speed Deore which is my go to groupset
OK, I'm just being mischievous here, but I bet you could strap a spare mech and chain (or two) to the normal version and it'd still be lighter than the Pinion one 😉
I have no inside info or anything, but I feel Hatton might have suffered for not having that partnership with Kolb any more. They were such a great pair and I think Andreas must be the perfect team mate. He's got such a great, positive personality.
To go on even more of a tangent, I have a hunch that Kolb might get signed by Spesh for next year.
Rumour I've heard is Orbea FMD....
Wonder why he was wearing syndicate kit, pushing a V10 around yesterday then?
I'm sure you could but I'd rather not have to deal with that on a loaded bike. I said it was an indulgence, I've managed one overnight trip on it a few day rides on it this year at this rate I'll never have to change the oil.
Much as above, I am not sure that they make a significant performance improvement for DH racing.
The rear wheel I am sure feels more sensitive unsprung mass etc, but can't see it saving seconds of a race run.
So, think the fastest rider will win, regardless of drive train.
For normal riders/ride I can see the functional upside, less maintenance, less chance of a ride ruining mechanical
Having never ridden one, the elephant in the room for that is the extra drag, are you prepared for the climbs to feel harder for the upsides? Is it a real problem?
If I was looking for a winch & plummet enduro type bike I would be looking pretty closely at the geometron GPI
But its heavy and its expensive, how much that matters to you is up for debate.
Likewise, if I was after a ebike, I would be looking closely at the pinion MGU options, but for me, the remote & tensioners of the system still feel like they have a way to be improved.
And again, the bike options are limited and not quite what I would be looking for.
So, for me, not convinced just yet, but want to be.... and for e-bikes, it has to be the future right, as the really only downsides are weight, that is a smaller proportional issue on a heavy ebike anyway, and drag, that you have a motor for.....
I have no inside info or anything, but I feel Hatton might have suffered for not having that partnership with Kolb any more. They were such a great pair and I think Andreas must be the perfect team mate. He's got such a great, positive personality.
To go on even more of a tangent, I have a hunch that Kolb might get signed by Spesh for next year.
Rumour I've heard is Orbea FMD....
Wonder why he was wearing syndicate kit, pushing a V10 around yesterday then?
Just jumped over to Vital, and yes, there's a pic of Kolb with Syndicate stuff on - I stand corrected. Although I did say 'rumour' - had heard he'd been spending a fair bit of time chatting to Tony Seagrave over the last couple of rounds. Perhaps that was plan B lol
One of the lads' coaches is sponsored by Zerode.
I asked him what he thought and he said he loves them....
Well he would say that. . . . . lol
Don't get me wrong - I'm a believer even if I haven't ridden one. My money no object Alps bikes would be a long travel Geometron G1 GP1 Pinion for uplifts and a S16 MGU for pedal adventures.
I'd like an MGU ebike but they're sufficiently complicated that I'll stick with wearing out chains and cassettes too quickly until the inevitable teething problems have been dealt with.
I don't think there's enough of a performance advantage to switch, it's in reliability and durability that a gearbox should win - but that's not easy with a complex new product (especially with a motor involved), when conventional gears have had decades of refinement.
We have belt drive on our e-cargo bike and my commuter, both hub gears. I love it. Ideal for urban use where the bikes get used and abused and not necessarily cleaned on a regular basis.
For a mtb id be tempted with a pinion based belt drive hardtail, but I’m still happy with normal gears
But i'm curious as to whether people are viewing the gearbox/belt setups yet as viable in any way ?
As a performance differentiator in a competitive environment...? Not at all... Won't be for a VERY long time if at all! Hats off to Gates for throwing the $100k purse into the mix to try and create a bit of innovation in the sport though, but when it comes down to it, the drivetrain is the least important part of a DH bike by some margin and there's easier/cheaper ways to improve the sprung/unsprung mass ratio than bolting a gearbox into the middle of the bike...
Besides... When was the last time you saw a motorbike win a race with a belt drive?!?! I know Harley Davidson road bikes come fitted with them and they last a long time, but for racing applications, the belts are always replaced with a good old chain and sprocket setup...
Where gearboxes, and to a lesser extent belt drives, really work, is for those who ride lots in all conditions and will take a slight weight/performance/efficiency/cost tradeoff for a significant improvement in robustness and a lack of maintenance... Belt drives are great for commuters, ideally on a hardtail frame where they don't need additional tensioners and anything that increases their complexity and introduces more failure points... Gearboxes likewise also making a significant use case in the world of eMTB too... In fact, having ridden the Nicolai/Geometron S16 MGU, I can attest to just how effective the Pinion MGU is, albeit it definitely does have some way to come to match the refinement and integration of the likes of a Bosch Gen5 CX setup, it shows immense potential and will likely only improve massively with subsequent revisions... In fact, I was close to ordering one earlier this year... I only relented due to personal financial circumstances and the realisation that a next gen MGU is likely to be so much better than the current system and probably isn't too far away, but I can see one in my future for sure... Just drop the range from 600% to maybe 450-500%, drop from 12 speeds to 9, doing so should save a bit of weight and complexity out of the system without any real compromises (10th, 11th and 12th were all totally redundant gears on the S16 when I rode it, unless you really feel you need to pedal on the flat above the 15.5mph assist limit at sub 50rpm cadence levels)...
And for anyone who wants to cross the world by bike... Well it's a small niche market for sure, but those that are into that kind of exploration are all over the regular Pinion gearboxes these days, having proven themselves so robust and reliable, when combined with a belt (carry a spare just in case), that they no longer need to run basic derailleur setups just so they can find spares in any bike shop the world over any longer!
Back to your point @weeksy...
It is purely a marketing exercise by Gates sticking a $100k purse up for the first win on a belt drive... To raise awareness for the system on bicycles, to a public otherwise ignorant to the fact that a belt drive is even an option on a bicycle... Personally, as much as I want an MGU eMTB in my future quite badly, I'd much rather continue providing the drive to the rear wheel with a chain as though they need more maintenance, they tend to be more robust to the elements and cheaper and easier to replace as and when anything does go wrong... I don't ride enough mileage to get the benefits out of a belt drive by a looooooong way either... Which only proves to serve just how ludicrous the idea of a belt drive on a DH MTB being a performance differentiator is, when you consider how few miles those bikes travel, how little time is spent pedalling on them etc...
I have a belt drive commute/utility bike bit with hub gears. Price over the equivalent chain/derailleur bike was about £400 if I remember right, I suspect that most of the additional cost is down to the belt and associated chainring as a hub costs about £170 retail.
It's doing ok reliability wise, 3.5 years old and about 8000 miles, but I had single speed chains that lasted donkies years before this bike and they are really cheap to replace too, whereas I reckon it's going to be £250+ for the belt and stuff come the time.
With this knowledge and the cost of a gearbox, I probably wouldn't bother on a mountain bike.
The best advancement for gearboxes is electric shifting, not belts.
Makes shifting no different, at all, to a regular derailleur set up.
I’ve a cable set up, with triggers, on long travel alps bike and it’s OK, but I can see a switch in the future.
Didn't someone do a drivetrain where the free hub was in the BB and the cassette & chain were constantly moving - allowing shifting without pedalling so in the right gear before you stomp on the pedals.
Surely this would be better for a DH as the free hub in the BB would do the same as the O-Chain etc.?
Didn't someone do a drivetrain where the free hub was in the BB and the cassette & chain were constantly moving - allowing shifting without pedalling so in the right gear before you stomp on the pedals.
Surely this would be better for a DH as the free hub in the BB would do the same as the O-Chain etc.?
Not sure about previous versions but that's what this is
https://www.williamsracingproducts.com/shop/p/centrehub-pre-order
To go on even more of a tangent, I have a hunch that Kolb might get signed by Spesh for next year.
Well you got the first letter right.
I like the idea of belt drive.
However until XC mtb racers are all using them it’s clearly not viable
Bit like the shift to disc brakes on road bikes. Well ok that was slightly different…
Besides... When was the last time you saw a motorbike win a race with a belt drive?!?! I know Harley Davidson road bikes come fitted with them and they last a long time, but for racing applications, the belts are always replaced with a good old chain and sprocket setup...
I don't understand the relevance of the comparison between a racing motorbike that is powered by an engine and a mountain bike powered by legs.
they tend to be more robust to the elements
I've read this a few times but have yet to see any detail on why this is a problem. Without looking hard there's this thread where a few people say mud is no bother Gates belt drive and mud? – Bike Forum – Singletrack World Magazine Forum
I know a WC mechanic and he was saying that at the start of the season in the mud belt retention was an issue - probably why MS have gone to Hope for a solution.
It's interesting. On one hand there's a lot on Zerode's site about how belt and box is much better in mud than chain and sprockets, and I'm sure I saw Reece (or someone else?) talking about the same at the beginning of the season. Obviously, I get why they would say this.
On the other hand, there's a lot of talk about potential belt-shedding.
But i've never seen any images of belt carnage. Maybe this a Big Chain conspiracy?
I'd be interested if some of the top EDR riders were to run belts to see how they went over a season without mechanics on hand every 2.5km. Did anyone do that this year? (aside from Hattie's one(?) race).
Personally I love the idea of Zerode or something similar as a novelty, but I expect it's like wireless gears. Within half a ride it's just normalised anyway.
Reality is I couldn't be arsed with the extra cost, plus needing a 142mm rear wheel to go with the Boost and SuperBoost wheels in the shed.
I don't understand the relevance of the comparison between a racing motorbike that is powered by an engine and a mountain bike powered by legs.
No, you're right... They're completely different things! 🤣
Except... They are of course, absolutely not... Your legs are simply two big pistons, pushing up and down on a crank, turning linear up and down movement into a rotational force that then goes through a gearbox/drivetrain which then powers the rear wheel... In EXACTLY the same fashion that a Twin cylinder engine on a motorbike does would you believe! Shock horror!!!
I need to find it but there's a brilliant interview on YouTube somewhere with Chris Porter, where he goes into just how everyone in the bicycle trade likes to believe how different bicycles are compared to motorbikes and how somehow they would all have you believe that the laws of physics and maths don't apply to bicycles in the same way that they do motorbikes... 🤣 It's superb! Genuinely the biggest differences between bicycles and motorbikes are that the rider is a much higher % of the system weight on a bicycle than on a motorbike, therefore contributes much more directly to the dynamics of how the bike behaves than on a motorbike. Also your legs will only spin at a fraction of the speed even the lowest revving motorbike engines run at, so forces tend to be smoother and more predictable on a motorbike than on a bicycle, though they are typically much higher of course, especially when multiplied through a gearbox and final drive ratio that is required to put the power down from an engine spinning at many thousands of rpm vs the 80-100 rpm that your legs can spin at... Otherwise, they are incredibly similar...
You do realise that the BIGGEST selling point of a belt drive compared to a chain is its resistance to torque and its durability over distance/time... Right...?
A DH mountain bike ridden for maybe 3 or 4 minutes at a time, where the rider is freewheeling for 95% of the time and aside from maybe 3/4 pedal strokes out of the gate where they're pushing hard, the rest of the pedalling being done is at a high cadence with minimal torque going through the drivetrain, DOES NOT strike me as an obvious use case for a belt drive...
A 1900+cc V-Twin motorbike with a torque curve that looks like Table Mountain, on a big heavy machine, doing many thousands of miles over a period of years and where minimal maintenance would really be a big benefit, does... 👍
Are you still struggling...? Maybe measure the torque your legs can put out and then compare it to that of a big Harley Davidson engine, and then add in the multiplication factor that the gearbox and final drive ratio on the bike will add too (on a bicycle, once you're above a 1:1 ratio you're reducing your effective torque anyway)...
Trust me here... Gates' $100k purse is all about raising the profile of the brand in the wider cycling world... NOT about its suitability as a high performance product!
I've read this a few times but have yet to see any detail on why this is a problem. Without looking hard there's this thread where a few people say mud is no bother
And I know many people that have snapped them in UK conditions, and I know Taylor Vernon's Dad (who is his mechanic) quite well personally, and I know how much trouble they were having originally trying to get the belt drive to stay on the bike in thick muddy conditions...
I know a WC mechanic and he was saying that at the start of the season in the mud belt retention was an issue - probably why MS have gone to Hope for a solution.
Touché
I'm mechanically naive, clearly. But...
Also your legs will only spin at a fraction of the speed even the lowest revving motorbike engines run at, so forces tend to be smoother and more predictable on a motorbike than on a bicycle, though they are typically much higher of course, especially when multiplied through a gearbox and final drive ratio that is required to put the power down from an engine spinning at many thousands of rpm vs the 80-100 rpm that your legs can spin at...
... yes, that was kinda my point. Just much wordier 🤣
And I know many people that have snapped them in UK conditions, and I know Taylor Vernon's Dad (who is his mechanic) quite well personally, and I know how much trouble they were having originally trying to get the belt drive to stay on the bike in thick muddy conditions...
I hadn't heard or read that from anyone ever before, so thanks for clearing it up. Many sounds like a lot though, i'm surprised I haven't seen any videos of people walking down tracks with belts flapping around ... or am I right in thinking there was a woman at Lake Placid or maybe the race before that did a run with a dislodged belt?
Trust me here... Gates' $100k purse is all about raising the profile of the brand in the wider cycling world... NOT about its suitability as a high performance product!
Well really?
It’s not $100,000 it’s €100,000 which is actually $116,209.50. Not everything is American.
... except, ironically, the Gates Corporation
hadn't heard or read that from anyone ever before, so thanks for clearing it up. Manysounds like a lot though, i'm surprised I haven't seen any videos of people walking down tracks with belts flapping around
But DH mtb racing isn’t the real world.
It’s amazed me reading your own posts about your sons racing just how many parts you go through and the continual maintenance, even as a privateer.
Even when you watch Bernard Kerrs YT stuff they get a strip down nearly every run by the look of it.
So the chances of a belt going wrong on a run are going to be lower as the machines are maintained to the hilt ie are they changing the belt every run ?
There are a couple of non racing YouTubers using them now, Tom Cardy being an example, but even he is sponsored so you have to take it with a big pinch of salt
I get the motorbike comparison, but from the dawn of time, motorbikes have been more reliable. Maybe that’s because the components can be made heavy enough to be reliable?
In a word, no. I'm not anti-progress or anti-alternate designs but neither the gearbox or belt offers me any sort of worthwhile upgrade over cassette and mech so that I'm tempted by the additional cost. In 30 years of off-road riding I've yet to have the catastrophic failure of either chain or mech that belt and gearbox tells me they overcome. I've yet to feel that chain wear is so excessive that I need to replace it with a belt that lasts about what I can get from two chains anyway. I've never thought that a singularly designed frame to accept a centrally mounted gearbox was worth the extra cash or risk of the inherent in-built redundancy.
I admire the designers and inventors that want to change the way we move bikes, but none of them has of yet come up with a method that most folks can instinctively look at and realise that it's world's apart better than what we have already, in the same that say disc brakes or suspension forks did, and given the time and effort spent on it, to such little reward, I doubt they will anytime soon.
hadn't heard or read that from anyone ever before, so thanks for clearing it up. Manysounds like a lot though, i'm surprised I haven't seen any videos of people walking down tracks with belts flapping around
But DH mtb racing isn’t the real world.
It’s amazed me reading your own posts about your sons racing just how many parts you go through and the continual maintenance, even as a privateer.
Even when you watch Bernard Kerrs YT stuff they get a strip down nearly every run by the look of it.
So the chances of a belt going wrong on a run are going to be lower as the machines are maintained to the hilt ie are they changing the belt every run ?
There are a couple of non racing YouTubers using them now, Tom Cardy being an example, but even he is sponsored so you have to take it with a big pinch of salt
I get the motorbike comparison, but from the dawn of time, motorbikes have been more reliable. Maybe that’s because the components can be made heavy enough to be reliable?
TBH in DHs defence, i maintain the bike a LOT more than most, most people give it a wash and put it away... but i'm very very fussy. I can say that in the last 3 years of racing we've never failed to complete a race because of a mechanical, but that's my task, my 1 job (sorta). But my maint is honestly less than you'd think in some ways, it just seems a lot.. but mostly it's just 'checking' rather than repairing...
We don't see many at all at races though, there's only really a rare Zerode, it just so happens that one of our pit-gangs sons is on a Zerode and we know a girlie who's dad rides one as well, so he's had a bounce on a few, but not an actual top to bottom run as we only see these guys at races. But our pit-mate hasn't had any issues with belt/drive this season at all, i'll admit it's not been a super wet/muddy year though.
Didn't someone do a drivetrain where the free hub was in the BB and the cassette & chain were constantly moving - allowing shifting without pedalling so in the right gear before you stomp on the pedals.
Surely this would be better for a DH as the free hub in the BB would do the same as the O-Chain etc.?
One word - Drag. Having the whole drivetrain in operation massively increases the drag in the system over that of just a freewheel. This is a sport where the racers were regularly running race wheels with the grease removed and replaced with light oil to reduce the drag.
@mboy you're forgetting the suspension in all this. As you say there's very little pedalling so the efficiency isn't really a consideration but in a world where people are using Ochain because FOMO, the suspension action is obviously a major consideration and a lighter unsprung is a real benefit. A belt is significantly lighter than a chain and a single cog is a lot lighter than a mech and cassette. The whole suspension system gets lighter. You can also build a non dished wheel so that ends up stronger. Add to that the transmission weight goes into the right place (where people are adding lead to conventional bikes) and you're getting much nearer to the ideal.
That you can also change gears whilst coasting is also a big advantage.
None of this however has yet been able to make up for the fact that the best riders aren't sponsored by teams using them - there's not THAT much of a difference. Maybe if Andy Kolb had still been on Atherton it would have been a different story . . .
The Gamux riders were definitely losing belts at round 1 in Poland this year. I can't be bothered to look for the evidence. It'll be in a Pinkbike 'photo epic' article somewhere.
The retention system was updated for round 2 and we've seen some seriously filthy conditions since then with no obvious problems.
Edit: this picture was really easy to find
I think that they probably make more sense on e bikes as part of a motor gearbox unit?
I think that they probably make more sense on e bikes as part of a motor gearbox unit?
Definitely. I can't see belts hanging around in DH for long after the Belted Purse is won. If that ever happens.
Retention is tricky because they're light and thus easily deflected and the tension that keeps them on the cogs is only as much as can be applied by the spring tensioner. If you get a stone in between the belt and the cog it just compresses the spring and the belt is lifted off the cog. If that happens when there's a side hit, off your belt will come.
This wouldn't happen with a chain as it's narrow, hard and there's nowhere for a stone to get trapped. It doesn't happen with singlespeed belt setups as there's nowhere for the belt to go so it just deals with it (or jams).
Is either perfect? No. there's always compromises but Shimano aren't offering the €100k incentive. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the purse is either won or the offer withdrawn.
The most interesting question is will we ever see one of the really quick boys on a belt drive bike? There's nothing to say it has to be a production model . . . .
I've had a Gates driven Rohloff for the past 5 years or so - it's fantastic - I've only just replaced the original belt and I've done three oil changes from new - probably c 5k miles/yr.
It's on a fully rigid Shand Bahookie - so really an offroad tourer, rather than a full-on MTB - and I've used it in a number of gravel events -
Why fantastic? Mainly because of the lack of maintenance - I hard;y need to touch it.
It's (relatively) heavy and teh gear shift is (relatively) slow - and I believe the Pinion gearbox is even worse in both these regards.
Perfect for my use-case - but for racing? I'm really not sure that's the proper use for these systems - they've got benefits, but as they're neither weight nor shifting efficiency, I can't see that racing is the thing......
The pinion with smart shift electric seemed VERY quick when i used it.
One word - Drag. Having the whole drivetrain in operation massively increases the drag in the system over that of just a freewheel. This is a sport where the racers were regularly running race wheels with the grease removed and replaced with light oil to reduce the drag.
@mboy you're forgetting the suspension in all this. As you say there's very little pedalling so the efficiency isn't really a consideration but in a world where people are using Ochain because FOMO, the suspension action is obviously a major consideration and a lighter unsprung is a real benefit. A belt is significantly lighter than a chain and a single cog is a lot lighter than a mech and cassette. The whole suspension system gets lighter. You can also build a non dished wheel so that ends up stronger. Add to that the transmission weight goes into the right place (where people are adding lead to conventional bikes) and you're getting much nearer to the ideal.
That you can also change gears whilst coasting is also a big advantage.
None of this however has yet been able to make up for the fact that the best riders aren't sponsored by teams using them - there's not THAT much of a difference. Maybe if Andy Kolb had still been on Atherton it would have been a different story . . .
I can assure you that I absolutely have not forgotten the suspension in all of this... I have assumed (and not stated to be fair) that anyone racing DH seriously is going to have done all they can to isolate pedalling forces or pedal kickback from impacting upon the suspension performance by fitting an O-Chain or similar... They will also likely be running a very light, close ratio cassette, short cage mech and a wheel with a shorter freehub hence less dish already (as per SRAM 7spd cassettes)... A big belt drive sized cog is lighter than a cassette for sure, but probably not by much when you factor in the weight of a close ratio 7spd cassette compared to say a 10-52 12spd cassette that I run on my eBike... The rear mech will be pretty minimalist too, and won't be a huge amount heavier than any tensioner/guide run on a belt drive system either...
There'll be a LOT more benefit on a typical trail bike or eBike to moving the drivetrain into the centre of the bike in terms of sprung vs unsprung mass than there will be on a typical DH bike I'd wager... Although the DH racer is actually the one who is likely to benefit from it far more than the average weekend trail warrior of course.
Agree with you on the drag thing... It's been proven time and again, no matter how much we might not like it, that a well maintained derailleur gear system is by far the most efficient way of transferring a riders' power input at the cranks into forward momentum at the rear wheel... The best derailleur systems are something like 98%+ efficient, where typically even the best gearboxes on bikes are only around 95% efficient (and hug gears like the Rohloff hub quite a bit less than that typically)... Add in the fact that a belt drive typically has a bit more parasitic drag than a chain (trust me, a Pinion Gearbox with a singlespeed chain is a FAR better performance bet for most riders/racers than one with a belt drive, despite what Gates might wager) and like you said, you're adding in a LOT more drag than your a racer who's removing the seals from their wheel bearings and running a light oil instead of grease in them is likely to put up with...
Which is where Honda's RN-01 came in, all those years ago... All the benefits of a gearbox with none of the drawbacks... Why...? Cos it was basically a 7spd derailleur and cassette setup inside a box, mounted in the frame, shielded from the elements!
... yes, that was kinda my point. Just much wordier
And yet, ironically, it was the least important part of what I said previously... The speed at which we pedal vs the speed of a motorbikes engine rotating, was a big deal when everyone was running weird and wonderful suspension setups and experimenting with the main pivot point in all sorts of positions to combat "pedal bob"... The world has moved on from that problem though with better quality shocks mostly, but also suspension designers realising that they don't need the crazy levels of anti squat that they previously thought necessary to make a bike climb well (which is something a DH bike doesn't need to do anyway)...
Anti-squat is still a serious consideration for anyone designing a motorbike suspension system too... It's just that it will be considered the power being applied to the rear wheel will be a more consistent force, and hence the shock won't typically need as much low speed compression damping in relation to the overall system weight, as an equivalent MTB being ridden up things might do to compensate for a riders' lack of smooth pedalling style...
I think that they probably make more sense on e bikes as part of a motor gearbox unit?
100%... And this is where I would still love to have one myself sooner than later!
The pinion with smart shift electric seemed VERY quick when i used it.
The electronic shift has made all the difference with the Pinion gearboxes... Previous mechanical shifters were clunky and slow (and had terrible ergonomics for MTB use!)... The electronic shifter has changed all that thankfully...
You still get an occasionally clunky shift from 4th-5th and 8th-9th on the 12speed versions simply because of the 3x4 architecture inside the gearbox, but it's waaaaay better with the electronic shifter than it was with mechanical from what I can tell.
it was basically a 7spd derailleur and cassette setup inside a box, mounted in the frame, shielded from the elements!
Meanwhile, Scott are putting the shock in the frame and leaving the transmission outside *facepalm*
Anyway, it'll be interesting to see if the DH teams who went to belt & gearbox setups stick with them - and if any more teams join the party in 2026.
it was basically a 7spd derailleur and cassette setup inside a box, mounted in the frame, shielded from the elements!
Meanwhile, Scott are putting the shock in the frame and leaving the transmission outside *facepalm*
Anyway, it'll be interesting to see if the DH teams who went to belt & gearbox setups stick with them - and if any more teams join the party in 2026.
I'm not sure that's a factor, the DH teams apart from Atherton HAVE to stick with them, both the Gamux and the Zerdoe are gearbox bikes, simple as that. The Atherton is a weird outlier, if we believe what's been said, they are not producing a version the public can buy, so it's purely for their own reasons, there's VERY few gearbox bikes out there made and even the non-team riders are not on them, you'd assume if they were going public, then some people would have one by now. So there's no commercial benefit, so they must therefore believe they're better/faster i assume.
I know their riders have done back to back testing at Dyfi etc with gearbox and non, so you'd assume at pro level they're quickest.
Bizarrely at National level the Athertons are getting more and more popular and outstanding results with their standard bike, just about every time a winner crosses the line at the moment they're on Athertons. (Partly this was why i've bought one). They're absolutely flying at National UK level.
Every year or so we get a "gearboxes are great" thread and they always go the same way. Someone with a fairly niche bike raves about how awesome it is and wonders why everyone else still uses derailleurs, then other people point out that derailleurs are fine for 99% of bike and are cheap and simple, then it devolves into nerdy tech arguments about gear ranges, drivetrain drag, pivot points and anti-squat, etc.
The fundamental problem with gearboxes is that they will always be more expensive than a derailleur and will always have more friction. For a decent number of people, those considerations are outweighed by being shielded from the weather and not getting bashed on rocks. But, for the overwhelming majority of cyclists, gearboxes are just too expensive. That's why they will never replace derailleurs.
Atherton and Intense could both go back.
I'm not saying they will, and I don't expect they will, but they might for whatever reason.
As you say, the normal Atherton bike was clearly one of the best on the circuit and maybe it is quicker than the gearbox one in some circumstances.
Which is where Honda's RN-01 came in, all those years ago... All the benefits of a gearbox with none of the drawbacks... Why...? Cos it was basically a 7spd derailleur and cassette setup inside a box, mounted in the frame, shielded from the elements!
Wasn't the problem with the RN01 that it was always engaged and therefore had huge drag? I'm sure I read that Minnaar was really frustrated with it because it was so much slower in a straight line than it could have been.
Wasn't the problem with the RN01 that it was always engaged and therefore had huge drag? I'm sure I read that Minnaar was really frustrated with it because it was so much slower in a straight line than it could have been.
I hadn't heard that, but wouldn't the solution have been to move the freewheel element from the rear wheel from the gearbox. Although that would mean you would lose the ability to shift while freewheeling.
Although in these days of wireless shifting I'm sure you could engage and disengage the rear freewheel just for gearshifts if you really wanted to...
Anyway, on the subject of gearboxes, I'm yet to see a better solution than Millyard's bike (even if it is nearly 20 years old now):
Wasn't the problem with the RN01 that it was always engaged and therefore had huge drag? I'm sure I read that Minnaar was really frustrated with it because it was so much slower in a straight line than it could have been.
I hadn't heard that, but wouldn't the solution have been to move the freewheel element from the rear wheel from the gearbox. Although that would mean you would lose the ability to shift while freewheeling.
Although in these days of wireless shifting I'm sure you could engage and disengage the rear freewheel just for gearshifts if you really wanted to...
Anyway, on the subject of gearboxes, I'm yet to see a better solution than Millyard's bike (even if it is nearly 20 years old now):
Without being too harsh, his lad didn't exactly set the world alight when he rode it. 15th at a National seems to be the best result he had on it. So maybe the gearbox worked but the bike wasn't arguably amazing. His results were better on the Commencal he rode after that.
just goes to prove the old adage that it's more about the rider than the bike. No matter how much we may want to blame the equipment.
Loved that thing, even if it was a bit URT. The single sided swingarm version was immense. Super impressive to have been made in his garage and even more so when you realise he even made the shock for it.
just goes to prove the old adage that it's more about the rider than the bike. No matter how much we may want to blame the equipment.
Loved that thing, even if it was a bit URT. The single sided swingarm version was immense. Super impressive to have been made in his garage and even more so when you realise he even made the shock for it.
There's no doubting he's a clever bloke.
Without being too harsh, his lad didn't exactly set the world alight when he rode it. 15th at a National seems to be the best result he had on it. So maybe the gearbox worked but the bike wasn't arguably amazing. His results were better on the Commencal he rode after that.
It's difficult to read too much into a single rider on two bikes.. It could be the Commencal was just fundamentally faster (which you would expect given the sheer number of riders and designers they would have been getting feedback from) or it could be he just improved as a rider.
The Millyard is more of a proof of concept and I think it succeeds as that. If Specialized took that concept and threw a couple of years development at it and then you could compare it with a Commencal (under multiple different riders) and get a better idea of how close they were.
I think it's a shame putting IGH hubs into frames never really took off. I think it was an idea that had some legs.
I had a go on that Millard bike years ago at FOD. It was really really good (I on the other hand am just an average rider), but that could be to do with the suspension which felt great. I’d love to see a modern version with better geometry. Dirt absolutely loved it. And I seem to recall it had a lot less travel than people thought/assumed.
Having looked at all the belted DH bikes this year and all the great lengths Gamux and Zerode/Hope have gone to to keep the belt on in filthy conditions I still think that making it enclosed is the way forward.
Interesting video on GMBN where they visit Gates (obvs lots of marketing, but still some interesting stuff):
Now that Geometron are offering a gearbox version of the G1 I'm guessing Chris Porter thinks there's something to gearbox/belt drive?
Now that Geometron are offering a gearbox version of the G1 I'm guessing Chris Porter thinks there's something to gearbox/belt drive?
Geometron is not Chris Porter anymore and hasn't been for a while.
Interesting how Gamux showed up with an all new, multi link frame that looks completely different to the old one with 2 rounds to go.
Chris Porter was on a pod cast, he really liked the new (non-chris porter gemotron) but said for the gearbox one he would use a chain as there was more flexibility for chain stay length than with belts that only come in so many lengths.
A Millyard style enclosed belt on a single sided swingarm would be a fabulous thing. Would mean you could get rid of the oil bath, keep the mud and rocks off the belt and lose the tensioner all of which would help with efficiency.
Might get my (virtual) crayons out . . .
My Main Thought on Gearboxes DH bikes has long been that they mainly give the potential to simplify the Rear Wheel; if it basically becomes a SS or even Fixed (with a front FH) thing, with wider but symmetrically spaced flanges and a Shorter OLN Dim, that allows simpler to build and maintain, stronger wheels. As an Associated bonus it allows frame designers to narrow the rear of a (Specifically DH Race) bike without giving up stiffness(?) gaining those un-sprung mass benefits and moving the drive out of harms way.
At the same time if it's a Race bike, overall mass matters a bit, spares and repairs availability matter (in the field) and Robustness of the Drivetrain arguably come second to suspension performance and handling? once you've put the pivot higher up does it do much more in that regard?
Effort and money spent acquiring the "ideal" geometry and suspension setup has to trump gears especially as (for DH) you can have the key spare items (a spare Mech and hanger) sat in the pits waiting for you to clatter your way down after a cocked practice run.
Much of My own stint playing with DH bikes (I don't think you could call it racing) was back when Using Road Mechs and Cassettes was a common choice, they were Dinky, Cheap and (pre-Dynasis) happily talked to MTB shifters.
I think the issue is everyone is watching the "bleeding edge" developments on WC bikes right now, but most Privateers have to live within more prctical and financial constraints. Yeah some of these products are now available to muggles (at a significant premium) but are they going to give you enough of a performance benefit over the next season or two to justify the spend?
Then again at the other end of the spectrum you've got stuff like the Tora EVH a "modern" BMW alike, Steel, Single Speed DH bike that just appeals on the basis of simplicity and Sheer Agricultural engineering, all the attributes of a current Gearbox DH bike, apart from the gears...
This is the only belt drive in our house. Bloody thing spends more time off than on.
Now that Geometron are offering a gearbox version of the G1 I'm guessing Chris Porter thinks there's something to gearbox/belt drive?
Nicolai have ALWAYS offered Gearbox bikes, back when a "gearbox" was just shoving a Rohloff hub inside the frame... The "Geometron thing" has always worked both ways, Nicolai have benefitted from Geometron's input in terms of geometry and design and used it to their advantage on some of their more weird and wonderful creations too...
I think it's a shame putting IGH hubs into frames never really took off. I think it was an idea that had some legs.
No... Just no! By christ I'm glad we're past that... Overly heavy, massively complicated, huge amounts of drag, terrible shifters, you name it... Hub gears work well on commuter bikes, but they are a long way from being a high performance product... Pinion and the likes have moved that game on a long, long way with their internal gearboxes even if they are still a long way from universal acceptance even now.
Wasn't the problem with the RN01 that it was always engaged and therefore had huge drag? I'm sure I read that Minnaar was really frustrated with it because it was so much slower in a straight line than it could have been.
I don't know, I've not ridden it, but I know a man who has... I'll ask him! But yes, quite conceivably in a world where (as previously reported) they're removing the seals and all grease from hub bearings and running a light oil in them to reduce every microwatt of drag at times, a constantly spinning drivetrain (even a highly efficient derailleur one) would provide a touch more drag than one that was freewheeling when not being pedalled... And we're straight back to the reason that for most people, most of the time, that the derailleur gear system is still the drivetrain of choice on a high performance bicycle!
Then again at the other end of the spectrum you've got stuff like the Tora EVH a "modern" BMW alike, Steel, Single Speed DH bike that just appeals on the basis of simplicity and Sheer Agricultural engineering, all the attributes of a current Gearbox DH bike, apart from the gears...
Which reminds me, did anyone notice Starling had a Sturn V3 at Bespoked?
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/day-2-randoms-bespoked-show-dresden-2025.html
No... Just no! By christ I'm glad we're past that... Overly heavy, massively complicated, huge amounts of drag, terrible shifters, you name it... Hub gears work well on commuter bikes, but they are a long way from being a high performance product... Pinion and the likes have moved that game on a long, long way with their internal gearboxes even if they are still a long way from universal acceptance even now.
Thing thing I liked about the Hub in the Frame idea was that potentially you wouldn't be limited to a single 'gearbox'. If you took the concept to it's logical conclusion you'd have a standard mounting and you could pick and choose your gearbox. Rohlof if you want spendy or a three speed Sturmy Archer or Nexus if you want cheap winch and plummet.
Saying all that, the drag is noticeable (on some hubs more than others) which is why I'd rather see something like the Sturn above matched with a Phaser even further above where you fit a cassette in the middle of the cranks and then have a second cassette mounted on the second driveshaft (which is also the pivot).
Not sure if this is making sense the way I'm describing it.
Then again at the other end of the spectrum you've got stuff like the Tora EVH a "modern" BMW alike, Steel, Single Speed DH bike that just appeals on the basis of simplicity and Sheer Agricultural engineering, all the attributes of a current Gearbox DH bike, apart from the gears...
Which reminds me, did anyone notice Starling had a Sturn V3 at Bespoked?
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/day-2-randoms-bespoked-show-dresden-2025.html
They had it on their stand at the Malverns too. Very lovely thing. No plans for a geared/gearbox version when I spoke to Joe though.
Which reminds me, did anyone notice Starling had a Sturn V3 at Bespoked?
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/day-2-randoms-bespoked-show-dresden-2025.html
I did more than notice it. I've been speccing one up in my head all week.
If this grey one is a demo bike I'd love to ride it. Maybe not with the trail tyres on.
I bumped into a guy on yesterdays ride that was trying out a Nicolai MGU he'd borrowed off a mate.
Said he really liked the bike but wasn't keen on the gearbox aspect of it. Said it just felt a little agricultural.
I think it was the cable actuated version though so maybe the electronic one has improved on that.
I love the concept of gearbox bikes but after bad experiences with various hub gears I've not seriously looked into trying one yet.