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I'm seriously considering getting a belt driven commuter as a present for my partner. I've been thinking a while about what bike would suit her best and low maintenance is top priority. She only rides to commute and get around town. (I've never tried too hard to get her interested in cycling for pleasure because I think that way only arguments lie, but I do wonder if I can try and make her current cycling experience more pleasurable, she might be more interested in it. I can hope.)
Belt drives obviously don't need lubricating, last longer and aren't messy. Are there any downsides? I'm wondering whether replacing somewhat niche components might get expensive (even though that shouldn't need to happen as often). When the belt needs replacing, will I find it costs as much as the bike? Are they easily available?
I'm largely going to be limited by budget and what's available second-hand locally, but are there any particular models I should look out for? I'd happily buy a frame and build it up, but I think the cheapest way of doing it would be to by a complete bike and swap out parts as necessary.
I ran one of my bikes as singlespeed belt-drive for a while.
Upsides: no grease/oil to get on your clothes, no lubrication required.
Downsides: If I stood on the pedals I could make the belt skip. This damages the belt (wouldn't be a problem on a hub gear bike, as you shouldn't be standing on the pedals so hard).
Sometimes the belt squeaks (damp but not wet conditions).
The belts and pulleys are really expensive.
You have to find the right length belt for your chainstay length and desired pulley sizes. It might be that the manufacturer doesn't actually make a belt the right length so you'll have to compromise on pulley sizes.
You might need to make the belt very tight to stop it skipping teeth. In this case it will make your bottom bracket bearings and rear hub bearings wear out more quickly than they should.
I probably wouldn't bother. When my belt died (teeth falling off) I worked out it was going to cost 3 times as much to replace the belt and pulleys than buying a new chain, chainring and sprocket.
One other downside - if the frame isn't belt-drive ready you need to get the seatstay/dropout chopped so that the belt will fit in.
Does low maintenance really matter? I've never found commuters to be particularly high maintenance and surely you'll be doing the maintenance anyway.
Hmmm, that's rather off-putting. I wouldn't worry about it having to withstand too much power (not that she's not capable of it mind! That's just not her style of cycling) and I would probably go for an Alfine 8 setup.
But if the cost of the replacing bits is really that ridiculous and the choice limited, then I'd probably end up replacing it with a chain as well.
I'd be buying a frame with a split chainstay for this reason, but it does rather limit choice. Hadn't thought about getting a normal frame modified. But I could probably do that myself... no it'd have to be steel and I want to keep it light.
you'll be doing the maintenance anyway
Exactly 😀
My brother in law has a lovely single speed belt drive commuter. But he does live in the Netherlands. I also don't think he's had it long enough to say much about longevity.
It does look good though.
I'm not sure it works out more expensive given the belt should last a lot longer than a chain. Downside is it's probably not a DIY job when it does need maintenance, at least for getting the belt tension right.
There's a phone app for checking tension but I wasn't able to get a consistent reading from it.
For what it's worth I have a single speed belt drive Trek District I really like.
If you are considering an Alfine then a chain with chainguard would be better.
I agree with whitestone ^
I have a belt drive Nicolai Ion GPI (very different use but..) and it hasn't been as trouble free as I'd hoped. True, mud doesn't cause a problem but belt tensioner wear and regular squeaking from the belt have not been what I'd hoped for. When I look at the cost of replacement when the belt and pulleys are worn.....I may be converting to chain.
If you are considering an Alfine then a chain with chainguard would be better.
This was my backup plan and looking more likely. Chainguard would be a necessity (probably with a belt as well, since she's wary of getting loose clothes caught).
I'm not sure it works out more expensive given the belt should last a lot longer than a chain.
How much longer are we talking? I know that will vary with conditions, but I initially thought "basically forever" but read somewhere "twice as long as a chain" which sounds not worth it at all.
A singlespeed chain, ring and sprocket (with an Alfine) is going to be pretty cheap and long-lasting. It will still need lubing (by me) but at least it'll still shift fine.
I got my Mrs a Scott Sub-Speed 10. We both love it. No mess, no oil, nearly no maintenance. I've only had to pump the tyres up, sometimes she does that herself!
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/bikes/road/product/scott-sub-speed-10-review-50700/
My commuter in comparison has a wax coated chain (coming up to 8 months since it was done), and cable discs which need occasional adjusting. If you put a chain guard on mine, they'd be nearly as good as each other.
Yeah, I was wondering about trying the chain wax thing actually, for my commuter, and possibly mountain bikes, as well.
I've got a set of BB7s sat waiting to go on it. I run them on two of my other bikes and they're really low maintenance. Lube the internals once a year and just an occasional winding in of the pads. And pad replacement obviously.
How much longer are we talking? I know that will vary with conditions, but I initially thought "basically forever" but read somewhere "twice as long as a chain" which sounds not worth it at all.
I'd take my comments with a pinch of salt, haven't had the bike long enough to speak from personal experience. The previous owner replaced the belt (but not the rings) once in 4-5 years but I don't know what kind of mileage he did.
There's a review of the newer style Gates drive (centretrack system) that claims 31000km over 2 years on one belt which sounds impressive, but it is just one review.
The Ikea bike is belt drive, prib be very heavy but it is built to be super practical!
I want to improve her cycling experience, not put her off!
15kg but only £400. I'd want to know if it's possible to fit a regular, non-Ikea rack to it as there's looks like it won't take panniers easily..
The new Boardman is belt drive.
APF
You are hugely over-thinking this. There is a county not far away, where commuting bikes are properly designed for low maintenance transort.
But her a Batavus with complete chainguard. They a real pleasure to ride for the sort of riding she does. If it's a little hilly and you want more gears, Kalkhoff, Sparta etc are also available. But a Batavus is the real deal.
Kalkhof Durban 7 from EBC:
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15kg
Fair enough, I thought it'd be heavier than that, but it's still not light.
I kind of admire what they've done, but I'd be reluctant to buy one because I you'd find a lot of proprietry/non-standard parts/fittings (like the racks) on it that would be a pain/expensive when you come to replace something.
£2k? Ouch!
I was sort of looking at 'em too, not any more.
APF
You are hugely over-thinking this.
You are probably right. But I'm an engineer, it's what I do 😀
I've thought about that proper upright shopper type bike (particularly as we've been travelling in Europe recently, where you see a lot of them being ridden) but I'd like to find a compromise which would at least give the option of riding for pleasure. No-one wants to go for even 10 mile flat ride on easy trails or back lanes on a shopper.
a chain with chainguard would be better.
^ do that, cheaper and easier in the long run.
A full chaincase is even better if it's just for pottering around town, keeps weather and clothing out, you might be surprised how long a well lubed and protected chain with an IGH can last...
Yeah, if I could make a full chaincase fit, that would be ideal.
No-one wants to go for even 10 mile flat ride on easy trails or back lanes on a shopper.
Several million Dutch riders would disagree! Buy the bike for the riding you do, not the riding you think you might want to do in the future.
She cycles for transport, buy her a bike suitable for transport. It will improve her experience immensely, and this experience might spur her into riding further for pleasure. If she takes to it, then you buy a more suitable bike for pleasure riding.
No-one wants to go for even 10 mile flat ride on easy trails or back lanes on a shopper.
You'd be surprised, I've done (metric) centuries on mine. Proper comfy upright bikes are a delight for bowling along all day looking at the scenery. On mine I have a full chainguard (all the chain covered, not just a wraparound), but with slime in the rear tyre I don't have to take the wheel out much. I make a point of oiling the chain every time I do though (i.e. 3 times now in 10 years) even though it looks brand new.
If you have a sizeable budget, a Gazelle from Bike Heaven in York would be lovely, for surprisingly well built, light enough and nice ride, have a look "Real Classic" bikes on ebay, it's what we have, there's always a few on there in good nick. Three speed Sturmey, closed chainguard, 36 spoke wheels, V brakes, comfy all day long. Leather grips can be slippy when wet though.
Yeah, if I could make a full chaincase fit, that would be ideal.
Hebie Chainglider <- should work if you go down the IGH route, fairly adaptable and not expensive.
Other options available too if you want more industrial frame fitted options
I run an Avanti Inc 3 as my commuter bike. Never had any problems with the Gates GPX belt drive. Belt tension has never been an issue, the avanti uses a standard wheel dropout and an eccentric BB to ensure correct length and tension. The only problems I've had is with the Alfine 11 hub; if it's not indexed perfectly it has a tendency to slip, which can be lethal if you are up out of the saddle mashing the peddles... 😯
I built up a 26" wheel Surly disc trucker with a Alfine 8 for the Mrs. She loves it. Very stable and super smooth. The chain runs dead straight and needs very little lube. Just a drop of dry lube then a wipe to remove excess. It has a rack and hamax for the youngest. The belt thing would be more hassle than its worth IMO.
I want to improve her cycling experience, not put her off!
Have you considered an ebike ?
I kind of admire what they've done, but I'd be reluctant to buy one because I you'd find a lot of proprietry/non-standard parts/fittings (like the racks) on it that would be a pain/expensive when you come to replace something.
My thought also
I'm largely going to be limited by budget and what's available second-hand locally, but are there any particular models I should look out for? I'd happily buy a frame and build it up, but I think the cheapest way of doing it would be to by a complete bike and swap out parts as necessary.
Your requirements are very prescriptive/niche, and I think it's unlikely you will find just what you are looking for in a second hand bike that turns up for sale in the next few months (assuming that might be your time frame).
We might be able to advise better if you tell us:
- your budget
- the commute requirements (distance, road type, terrain incl. how hilly, what's to be carried and the likely weight)
- where the bike will be kept overnight and during the day (in the open?)
Hub gear, chain, Heebie Chainglider. Zero maintenance and none of the risks.
I came across those Chaingliders a while ago when I was investigating chainguards for her current bike. I dismissed them because it seems such a crazy idea I couldn't imagine it working, but maybe I'll give them a try.
It'll be the 8 speed Alfine rather than the 11, as they seem more reliable by most accounts.
Ebike... actually it has crossed my mind, but too expensive.
I don't think there's any point in defining my requirements too tightly, because I'm going to be limited to what's available fairly cheaply second hand. I know what to look for though (drivetrain quandaries aside, though I'm almost convinced a chain is the way forward).
I haven't written off a Dutch-style bike yet though. TiRed's post makes a lot sense (sorry, missed it before) and pretty much sums up my pondering over lunchtime. Edit: my biggest issues with this are price (potentially, haven't really looked at any) and non-standard parts: I want to be able to fix it cheaply and easily, ideally sharing parts and spares with my commuter.
Before you go too far it might be a good idea to discuss this with her. It sounds like she views bikes an easy form of transport, not necessarily something for amazing fun days out (tough concept I know, but stick with me here). She might not get very excited about a replacement bike when she only views it as a necessary tool to get places quicker.
If this is for a surprise present it might not score very highly when it is essentially just 'something for work'. Just because she 'needs' a new bike doesn't mean she 'wants' a new bike. Be careful!
(Engineer here too, I have been stung buying the wife useful and practical presents in the past)
I don't think there's any point in defining my requirements too tightly, because I'm going to be limited to what's available fairly cheaply second hand. I know what to look for though (drivetrain quandaries aside, though I'm almost convinced a chain is the way forward).I haven't written off a Dutch-style bike yet though. TiRed's post makes a lot sense (sorry, missed it before) and pretty much sums up my pondering over lunchtime. Edit: my biggest issues with this are price (potentially, haven't really looked at any) and non-standard parts: I want to be able to fix it cheaply and easily, ideally sharing parts and spares with my commuter.
It still doesn't seem as if you have fully thought through what the requirements are. You started out with a bit of fixation on belt drive, which has significant limitations in terms of the bikes available (especially second hand) and would probably be a relatively expensive modification to any existing frame (purchasing power and economies of scale will likely mean that the best value belt drive bikes are complete bikes from Dutch and German bike companies).
As V8_shin_print says, what does your partner want?
If it's for commuting, then it's possible/likely that there are other criteria that will be decisive [i]for her[/i], and your drivetrain preferences will be a distraction from the key choices.
For example:
- would she want/appreciate a step through frame, like the Kalkhoff in TiRed's post? In stop/start traffic conditions, the ability to just step down may be much appreciated. She might also prefer it if she wants to be able to wear normal clothes, e.g. a longish coat.
- is she going to commute in the dark? If so, she might appreciate dynamo lighting that is always on the bike and available (no need to remember to charge battery lights or take them off the bike in case they get stolen).
- how light does the bike [i]need[/i] to be? For flat terrain roads a heavier bike may be a non-issue.
Finally, a suggestion: take your engineer's hat off and put your cyclist's hat on instead. Think about what sort of bike you would most like to ride [u]in her shoes[/u], i.e. what will she find most comfortable, convenient and pleasurable for the sort of riding that she will do.
Edit to add -
This is what I mean by thinking like an engineer. What parts and spares would it need to share? You are not (or should not) be going to swap parts between bikes, and it is not particularly expensive or onerous if it has different but still common sized consumable parts like inner tubes.my biggest issues with this are...non-standard parts: I want to be able to fix it cheaply and easily, ideally sharing parts and spares with my commuter.
You both make a lot of valid points. I have put a lot of thought into it. I do think she would appreciate a new bike, but I know that it's not something she'll buy for herself until she absolutely has to. I'll fully admit that it's partly self-indulgence on my part, simply because seeing her struggle with her current, unsuitable bike is frustrating to me. She does see the problems with her current bike for herself though, it's not just me telling her she's got the wrong bike.
I do think she'd appreciate a step-through frame. A dropped top tube may be enough. The only way to find out would be to ask her, but that would spoil the surprise. I'm not saying I shouldn't do that though.
I was thinking of a dynamo if budget allows, yes.
The weight issue is as much about handling the bike while not riding it. She struggles with it when the garage is full and she has to get it out from behind mine (and we will be moving house soon and don't know what the bikes storage situation will be like), to get it in/on the car if I pick her up from somewhere for example, or putting in friend's yards or hallways when we're visiting.
The sharing spares thing isn't a big deal, but it's been very handy in the past when, say, she tells me her brakes don't work, I go and check them and find the pads are worn out, and can replace them immediately with some of my spares. As I say, not a deal-breaker. Having, I don't know, a saddle that can't be changed for a better one because it's a weird fitting would be though.
Within reason bike weight is irrelevant unless you have to lift it over gates or fences. Sometimes it's what you expect of a bike that affects how you perceive its weight: my hardtail and commuter are very close in weight but the commuter "feels" heavier because it looks like a road bike and I associate those with light weight.
If the bike's geared correctly then once you are riding you tend not to notice it
I've got a belt drive Canyon commuter. I think i've made the belt skip once (at the top of Anerley Hill, in traffic, and it was bloody scary - only just stayed on). Otherwise it's been fine.
A clean, maintenance free chain is a good addition to a Dutch bike - like that Kalkhoff - as oiling the chain is probably the maintenance they require. As a daily, all weather, commuter it does need doing more than you think and it does make a load of parts of the bike dirty.
Belt life - too early to say for me but what sort of mileage is she going to do? 25 miles a week is different to 100 miles a week (in terms of how many years the belt will last). I'm guessing if it's a few years of life it's fine.
You've not told us your budget, so it's still difficult for the rest of us to suggest possible bikes to consider.
If you are looking for a second hand bike that is only a few hundred pounds but which is also an absolute bargain, then you are probably simply not going to have the luxury of being very particular about the specification, unless you are prepared to wait and watch ebay etc. until the right bike comes up.
If you can afford to buy new, then it's arguably the case that commuting bikes under £1,000 offer some of the best value for money of any bikes, because it is such a highly competitive market for manufacturers around that price point.
The only way to find out would be to ask her, but that would spoil the surprise. I'm not saying I shouldn't do that though.
If an absolute bargain comes up on ebay and it's the right size and ticks enough boxes, then it's probably safe to buy it as a surprise on the basis that if she did not like it, you could sell it without losing much. Otherwise I would not surprise her: much of the pleasure in buying a bike (or anything for that matter) is in the anticipation - thinking about different bikes, what we like and don't like, reading reviews, looking at them on websites and in the shop and going for test rides, so why deny her that pleasure as well?
The weight issue is as much about handling the bike while not riding it. She struggles with it when the garage is full and she has to get it out from behind mine (and we will be moving house soon and don't know what the bikes storage situation will be like), to get it in/on the car if I pick her up from somewhere for example, or putting in friend's yards or hallways when we're visiting.
I see a different and better solution to this problem - ensure that her bike is always readily and easily accessible in the garage. So you put your bike behind hers. Similarly, [i]you[/i] put it in or on the car if you are picking her up. Incidentally, I think the 'leaned over stack of bikes in the garage scenario' is an example of where a stand like those fitted to most dutch bikes scores: if you've got enough space for it, the bike is ready to go straight away.
With regard to proprietary parts, I don't think it's an issue for standard commuter bikes (with the exception ironically of belt drives, where I presume you are locked in to the Gates or Continental systems).
Within reason bike weight is irrelevant unless you have to lift it over gates or fences
Not for the reasons I outlined in my previous post (apologies if they crossed).
You've not told us your budget, so it's still difficult for the rest of us to suggest possible bikes to consider.
I'm not really looking for suggestions for specific bikes, because as we've both said, it's going to be limited to what's on offer second-hand, but I was thinking of a budget of around £300. I realise I'm going to have to get fairly lucky to get something decent for that sort of money, but there's no real rush.
thinking about different bikes, what we like and don't like, reading reviews, looking at them on websites and in the shop and going for test rides, so why deny her that pleasure as well
This is the bit my partner hates about buying anything! (I do too with certain things, though not bikes, obviously.) She nearly had a mental breakdown trying to navigate the world of sat-nav marketing recently.
I see a different and better solution to this problem - ensure that her bike is always readily and easily accessible in the garage.
This reminds me of those funny extracts you read from 1930s housekeeping manuals: "When your husband returns from work, make sure his tea is on the table", etc. 😀 (though I admit, I have painted a rather stereotypical image of our relationship on this thread).
I'm not always going to be with her - she needs to be able to handle her own bike easily.
I do appreciate all the contributions on this thread. I'm leaning more towards the Dutch style bike which wasn't something I'd given serious thought to before. It's needs a bit more consideration though, and, maybe, some discussion.
You might find it worthwhile to read through [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/dutch-city-bikes ]this thread[/url].
Given your budget, how about [url= https://www.decathlon.co.uk/elops-920-step-over-classic-bike-grey-id_8353686.html ]this bike[/url] which is mentioned in that thread and costs £370? I don't know how local Decathlon are for you or whether they will do test rides, but it's got Nexus 7 speed, dynamo, stand, chain case etc. etc. The downside is it's 19kg, but you are unlikely to find significantly better second hand unless you are very lucky or wait a long time.
I would much rather buy a hub geared bike from new, because it's impossible to see what condition the gears are in on a second hand bike: there are plenty of photographs on the internet of the innards of hub gears which are in a terrible state due to neglect, water ingress and rust.
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Some of the Danish brands offer simple stuff that may be slightly lighter. 7 speed Nexus (also on that Decathlon) are very reliable. Roller cam brakes NEVER have worn out pads and and no dirty brake dust (but they can be rattly on bumpy roads).
Saw a woman with one of [url= https://www.evanscycles.com/bobbin-bicycles-brownie-21-speed-2017-womens-hybrid-bike-EV296930 ]these[/url] on the train tonight. Looked fairly decent.