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Proper cyclists are cyclists who obey the Highway Code
Are they also Scottish?
Although I do find it fun looking at the right wing rags write up of incidents.
Cyclists mows pedestrian down (in paragraph 8 noting they are actually on an illegally modified motorbike).
vs
Car collides with pedestrian (presumably with a completely innocent driver at the wheel).
Interesting thread but I thought I’d throw my two pennies in as someone who will NEVER cycle on the road or in an urban environment where bikes and vehicles can mix to give a bit of context to why it’s difficult to get people on bikes.
Statistics are great at allowing us to understand risk but the simple fact is that every vehicle that overtakes me could be the one that ends it all. No amount of quoting statistics or telling me to be more confident on the road changes that fact. The vulnerability on the road is just too great for me. A 95kg lump of squishy flesh and bone vs two tonnes of metal and glass? No thanks.
To me, when cycling on the road you have to trust every single person who is driving with you life. The 17yo who has just passed their test, the person who just got a text, the one who had a couple of lunchtime beers, the one who is late. I appreciate that these same risks exist when I drive my car but I am in a metal cage that has had years of engineering to protect me and a load of air bags.
Logically I know there is a high chance I could cycle every day, carefully and diligently, and never have a scratch. But I also know that if something does go wrong I am utterly unprotected.
Until it’s all separate (which it never will be) I’ll stick to the off-road stuff.
To me, when cycling on the road you have to trust every single person who is driving with you life.
Nope - you trust one person only - yourself. You remain aware and alert to every hazard. You assume every car is going to do the most stupid thing possible having not seen you. I have cycled for utility all my life in cities. Even countries with high levels of cycling infrastructure are not totally separate
Logically I know there is a high chance I could cycle every day, carefully and diligently, and never have a scratch. But I also know that if something does go wrong I am utterly unprotected.
I don't think that's much different to walking on the pavement.
I don’t think that’s much different to walking on the pavement.
That's a fair point but - unlike in cycling - there are not websites full of pavement near misses, pavement rage or telling you to buy rear radar, brighter lights, wear hi-vis and helmets etc when pavementing.
Which all just adds to the "it's dangerous" narrative.
I don’t think that’s much different to walking on the pavement.
I would like it to be. When I'm using a bike for town-errands, I prefer to think of myself as a pedestrian with access to a faster way to travel, than as a user of a vehicle, subject to traffic laws, and so on who occasionally dismounts to do other stuff.
You remain aware and alert to every hazard.
There's good separated bike infrastructure on my bit of Manchester and I often (now) see school kids using it to get to school. I watched a couple of (maybe 8 year olds) navigate a busy 4 way intersection a few weeks back, and they were chatting animatedly about Marvel or dinosaurs or whatever it is 8 year old boys think is vitally important these days, and neither of them was paying any attention to the traffic around them - becasue they didn't really need to. That to me, is how it should work
Which all just adds to the “it’s dangerous” narrative.
Quite. My commute is nearly all segregated paths, but to use them I have to cross seven roads, using three zebra crossings and four sets of lights. Usually, any conflict arises at those crossings and is of course just as dangerous for the pedestrians. Probably more so as I cross the road more quickly.
This is not how most people want to get around:
You remain aware and alert to every hazard. You assume every car is going to do the most stupid thing possible having not seen you.
Whether or not cycling is statistically safe or not is irrelevant if that that mindset required to do it. All the talk of improving confidence and getting better bikes skills has been floating around for decades and IMO has reached the limit of what it can acheive in terms of getting more people on bikes. This, however:
I watched a couple of (maybe 8 year olds) navigate a busy 4 way intersection a few weeks back, and they were chatting animatedly about Marvel or dinosaurs or whatever it is 8 year old boys think is vitally important these days, and neither of them was paying any attention to the traffic around them – becasue they didn’t really need to.
is absolutely it. Just some kids having some independence and living their lives without having to transform into HIGHLY VISIBLE AND CONFIDENT CYCLISM MAN. Folk like my mum being able to get to the library to volunteer (which she's stopped doing because the roads are too busy for her to contemplate using her mobility scooter).
And we can be defeatist and throw our hands up and say it'll never happen in the UK but that example ^^^ is from Manchester.
@tjagain - I live outside a town so would have to cycle on a reasonably busy road. No amount of being aware of what’s going on around me will stop a car mowing me down from behind. That’s what I mean by trusting people and that is what I fear. Glad you feel safe cycling on the road, I just don’t.
@ransos - Not really. Riding a bike on a road I would be making a conscious decision to put myself in the path of other vehicles but walking on the pavement is separated. Again, I’m looking at this through the context of what I would have to do to cycle into town which is ride on a reasonably busy road.
All I was trying to point out was to someone like me, statistics are irrelevant. You can tell me how safe cycling is and I just don’t care. I feel unsafe riding on the road so I don’t do it.
Manchester is not all great the cycling provision does not reach that far from the city centre and can be patchy and difficult to follow outside your area.
It is a step forward though and I do most of my local travel by bike or walking.
I think it's less Risky in urban areas as car speeds tend to be lower.
All I was trying to point out was to someone like me, statistics are irrelevant. You can tell me how safe cycling is and I just don’t care. I feel unsafe riding on the road so I don’t do it.
Some folk fear flying, despite statistics showing how safe it is,
@ransos – Not really. Riding a bike on a road I would be making a conscious decision to put myself in the path of other vehicles but walking on the pavement is separated.
Which is exactly what you do every time you cross the road. And it's hardly unknown for cars to mount the pavement and kill pedestrians.
You remain aware and alert to every hazard. You assume every car is going to do the most stupid thing possible having not seen you.
And then when you're onto the dedicated cycle path you remain aware and alert to every dog walker and zombified pedestrian staring at their phone. It always seems to be me, the cyclist, who needs to remain aware and alert to everyone else's actions. <grumble over>
Which is exactly what you do every time you cross the road. And it’s hardly unknown for cars to mount the pavement and kill pedestrians.
That's not a great comparison. Yes, cars mount the pavement and do hit people but you can generally walk down a pavement completely unaware of everything without fear of ending up injured. I walk an awful lot and can't remember the last time I had an altercation with a motorist when on foot, although it has happened. On the bike it was yesterday. (Car overtook me approaching a queue of traffic waiting at a roundabout and decided to pull back in regardless of the fact that's where I was. I was on road for a total of about 1 mile in a 12 mile MTB ride...)
No, having someone drive up behind me at 60mph is not the same as me crossing the road.
Some folk fear flying, despite statistics showing how safe it is,
I think is a fair comparison of the perception versus the facts.
Though scared flyers tend not to try and convince others that their understanding of the risks is the correct one, as some cyclists, and the media, sometimes do.
Some folk fear flying, despite statistics showing how safe it is,
The difference is that as a cyclist, you can kid yourself that you have control over the risk. Obviously you do have some agency, but there's always an element of randomness, which in turn is potentially deadly due to your vulnerability as a cyclist. Think cars coming round bends on the wrong side of a narrow country lane. It doesn't happen often, but if you think you have control over that sort of scenario, you're borderline delusional.
Fwiw, i think route choice is as much a factor as road craft - or whatever you want to call it. I have a collection of black-flagged local roads that I stay off because they're potentially dangerous in my estimation, too fast, too narrow with poor sight-lines, used by lorries etc.
I tend to see route choice as part of road craft - my old commute was longer than it needed to be but flatter and on quieter roads or cyclepaths. Groups like Sustrans and the local cycling charities round here offer route planning as well as traffic skills to support people to commute to work.
but if you think you have control over that sort of scenario, you’re borderline delusional.
Cyclecraft tells me that all I need to do is learn how to accelerate to, and maintain 20mph, and I'm the master of my own destiny!
Cyclecraft tells me that all I need to do is learn how to accelerate to, and maintain 20mph, and I’m the master of my own destiny!
Even on this thread there's a suggestion that all you need is a mirror to have decades of safe road riding. Maybe a mirror in the shape of a four-leafed clover, blessed by the pope, the Dalai Lama, Gandhi and Mother Theresa? 😀
I used to do ~3k commuting miles a year for a decade+, I'm still in the same job now but I don't cycle anymore. I got to the point where it just wore me down and I was fed up with constantly having to be assertive / hyper vigilant
I figured that the lack of infrastructure and the anti cycling culture wars wasn't my fault and that I'd 'done my bit'
I'm happier sat in my tin box picking my nose and listening to the radio. If infrastructure was put in place then I'd cycle again but until then.....
The TLDR summary of this thread:
Cycling is more risky than driving, but not as risky as people who are afraid of cycling on the road believe.
I used to do a lot more road than MTB and considered myself confident on the road, but I recently got a road bike and hate it now. I've had way more close passes, cutting up on roundabouts and junctions etc recently. You only need to look at any comments section on a cycling/driver incident video in social media to see the level of hatred for cyclists being on the road. I'd rather be off road now on MTB or gravel bike, road's not worth the risk for me.
Another uneventful 75km of commuting. 117 traffic lights on the way in. One modest segregated cycle track on the C9 through Chiswick. The woman on the e-Brompton who jumped every red light and mounted the pavement to avoid some pedestrians was only the second worst cyclist I saw today. The guy who jumped a red light crossing a main road was lucky not to be under the car that pulled away early.
Headwind home was the worst part and added five minutes to a pleasant day on the bike. A few waves as I lit my bike to celebrate Christmas.
Another uneventful 75km of commuting. 117 traffic lights on the way in.
Did you manage to exchange any more knowing looks with taxi drivers, letting them know you're a 'proper' cyclist?
Is there a big Zoom meeting where all the drivers get together and let each other know which 'proper' cyclists are the good ones so they can all keep an eye out for you?
What's wrong with you?
What’s wrong with you?
Me?
It's a long list and probably not very interesting for most people reading a thread about road safety. But one of the things is that people who talk about 'proper' cyclists make my hair hurt and I find that annoying.
It hurts even worse when people suggest that because they are such a 'proper' cyclist they get special treatment by drivers, thus implying that near misses and drivers taking liberties with people's lives could be avoided if only everyone who rode bikes were as 'proper' as they were.
Why, what's wrong with you?
Just a bit perplexed that, having had a difference of opinion with one poster, it seems like you're now going to be whitheringly sarcastic in response to their every post.
Just, like... you know - move on.
Just a bit perplexed that, having had a difference of opinion with one poster, it seems like you’re now going to be whitheringly sarcastic in response to their every post.
Just, like… you know – move on.
Are you new to the internet?
Anyway, it's not every post. Just the ones that come across as sanctimonious.
I walk an awful lot and can’t remember the last time I had an altercation with a motorist when on foot,
Crikey, it's pretty common IME for motorists to jump lights or zebra crossings when peds are trying to cross the road. I've had altercations about it, including when I was outside my daughter's school.
Given that a lot of those crossings are shared with cycling infrastructure I fail to see the difference.
We try and predict how many cars will come through the lights on red while waiting to turn right.
The worst I have seen is red plus 4
Are you new to the internet?
Anyway, it’s not every post. Just the ones that come across as sanctimonious.
Great, that will make this a much nicer place. 🙂
Another uneventful 75km of commuting. 117 traffic lights
I just couldn't cycle commute in that there London City of Town. I mean where's the enjoyment negotiating 117 traffic lights and all those other pesky bloody cyclists. Not got the patience for that.
Surprisingly more enjoyable than I first expected. But I leave the sticks about 8:00-8:30 which avoids peak traffic. And I leave the office about 19:00 (much later last night). Riding through London at night is rather pleasant if you choose the right roads.
Some of the riding standards are atrocious at peak times. Have to be seen to be believed. First really near miss yesterday for a rider who decided red lights don’t apply. I’m sure I’ll watch something more serious in time. Obeying the rules probably adds no more than 10 minutes. About the same as a headwind.
get special treatment by drivers
hahahaha If “special” means appropriate then yes. Ride predictably, and guess what? Drives can predict what you do. Nizoral shampoo is good for itchy hair.
hahahaha If “special” means appropriate then yes. Ride predictably, and guess what? Drives can predict what you do.
So drivers treat you 'appropriately' because you are a 'proper' cyclist?
Therefore anyone who gets hit or has a near miss must have been doing something wrong?
Anyone who has ridden on the road for more than 5 minutes will tell you you can ride as predictably as you want. If it comes down to a choice between waiting 3 seconds and taking a risk with someone's life, many drivers will not even pause to think and just plow through regardless.
I'm really beginning to wonder if a person can be as oblivious as you seem to be. Or if you simply don't ride a bike and are in fact a cab driver trying to convince us it's all our own fault we regularly get people taking liberties with our lives.
Just the ones that come across as sanctimonious.
Oh teh ironing, as the young person probably don't say
Just going back to my original post - my views, as a year round commuter, are that:
there is more traffic than ever before
there are now more larger cars than ever before
there are now more uninsured and unlicensed drivers than ever before
there are now more in-vehicle distractions (sat navs, phones etc) than ever before
(I think there are stats to back up all the above)
My observations (no stats to back these up):
I see more things (walls, signs, railings, buildings, other vehicles, traffic lights etc etc) damaged by vehicles than I've ever see before
I get vehicles passing me on a daily basis reeking of skunk
I see frequently see discarded industrial sized NO2 containers in the gutter
Social media feeds of the local and national press have stories of RTA's on such a regular basis that they are now rarely even noticed
I see more aggressive, dangerous, poor and thoughtless driving than at any point in my life
I really don't feel that road riding is 'actually pretty safe'.
I suppose the thing is, I feel pretty safe because I've been doing this shit for over 30 years and gradually got used to the roads getting busier and busier.. to plunge NOW, inexperienced, into todays cesspool of British driving and crap infrastructure, is a pretty daunting prospect for anyone and probably... not safe.
I walk an awful lot and can’t remember the last time I had an altercation with a motorist when on foot,
Crikey, it’s pretty common IME for motorists to jump lights or zebra crossings when peds are trying to cross the road. I’ve had altercations about it, including when I was outside my daughter’s school.
I was replying to your comment about cars killing pedestrians on the pavement, not about RLJers. But you are right - my kids still remember the almost daily problems with cars jumping lights on the way to school.
Or if you simply don’t ride a bike and are in fact a cab driver trying to convince us it’s all our own fault we regularly get people taking liberties with our lives.
Whatever ... https://www.strava.com/activities/13130652297 and not had a single issue with black cab drivers in many commutes. And just to tie in the other SS thread, I commute fixed wheel (which means Strava cadence can tell me how many times I put my foot down to stop - lots in Central London but nor much thereafter), but have switched to SPDs because of the stop/starts at said traffic lights. Not seen many RLJs on four wheels either, but the probability of getting caught is higher in Central London.
suppose the thing is, I feel pretty safe because I’ve been doing this shit for over 30 years
And this too.
suppose the thing is, I feel pretty safe because I’ve been doing this shit for over 30 years
And this too.
Quite a few of us on this thread have cycle commuted for decades so that's rather like that saying about granny and sucking eggs. Last winter I took a few weeks off because it was getting too dangerous. I resumed when the clocks changed, but shortly after needed to start using the car anyway. At the moment I'm enjoying my riding and not having many incidents because I can pick and choose when and where I ride and I don't miss the cycle commute at all.
Your comments are absolutely relative to where you ride - London. Even when I lived there 30 years ago it rarely felt unsafe, and that was before the weight of cycle commuters had hit. You even reference it in your comments - you're more likely to get caught RLJing in a car in central London, and traffic crawls anyway. It isn't representative of a dark morning commute in Liverpool, Sheffield, Swansea....
To be fair, the village I live in gets a bit testy come 8:00 when the railway crossing barriers come down four times an hour in rush hour. The number of cars that don't understand what a keep left sign or zig zags on a zebra crossing mean is astonishing! Someone was hit on the pedestrian crossing by a driver on the wrong side of the road who decided they could not wait. Have hassles about once a month, but there is little car drivers can do in such congestion. It's the oncoming traffic holding you up, not the cyclist.
London has done a lot for cyclists. The C9 into central London has decent segregation, but I think the 20 mph limits have made a bigger difference for me. I'm certainly enjoying the Zone 2 base miles. Will be out with the club on our regular Tuesday night club ride into SW London later this evening. The state of the road surfaces rather than traffic are a bigger hazard. But we ride after 7PM.
London has done a lot for cyclists. The C9 into central London has decent segregation, but I think the 20 mph limits have made a bigger difference for me.
It's almost like you making eyes at cab drivers and doing everything you can to please them isn't the root cause of not having many issues. It's as if riding somewhere where the combination of a critical mass of people on bikes and low traffic speeds means that things become much safer no matter how bad the quality of riding (and/or driving).
Maybe that should be your takeaway rather than implying it's the fault of people who ride bikes because they aren't as virtuous as you?
Quite a few of us on this thread have cycle commuted for decades so that’s rather like that saying about granny and sucking eggs.
Jeez, talk about taking a quote out of context. Did you actually read what I typed??
For a start the saying is "teaching granny to suck eggs" and I wasn't trying to teach you anything. I mean, how dare I!?
Anyway dick swinging and antagonism aside, the most interesting posts on this thread (IMO) were actually from a couple of days ago when someone basically stated they wouldn't cycle on the road and tried to articulate why:
alexb17
Free Member
Interesting thread but I thought I’d throw my two pennies in as someone who will NEVER cycle on the road or in an urban environment where bikes and vehicles can mix to give a bit of context to why it’s difficult to get people on bikes.Statistics are great at allowing us to understand risk but the simple fact is that every vehicle that overtakes me could be the one that ends it all. No amount of quoting statistics or telling me to be more confident on the road changes that fact. The vulnerability on the road is just too great for me. A 95kg lump of squishy flesh and bone vs two tonnes of metal and glass? No thanks.
To me, when cycling on the road you have to trust every single person who is driving with you life. The 17yo who has just passed their test, the person who just got a text, the one who had a couple of lunchtime beers, the one who is late. I appreciate that these same risks exist when I drive my car but I am in a metal cage that has had years of engineering to protect me and a load of air bags.
Logically I know there is a high chance I could cycle every day, carefully and diligently, and never have a scratch. But I also know that if something does go wrong I am utterly unprotected.
Until it’s all separate (which it never will be) I’ll stick to the off-road stuff.
^^That^^ is much more interesting (in the context of this thread) because it's an insight into the thought processes of someone who is into bicycles, but won't use them on the roads.
So What does it tell us? My own takes:
-Stats don't offer much assurance and are naturally trumped by the sense of physical vulnerability (the lack of a crumple zone). Comes back to the "confidence" discussion I suppose
-There is a view of cycling on the roads as a "trust exercise", couple that with a generally poor view of Humanity (not uncommon TBF) yeah I can see that it's the wider disposition of our species that ends up acting as a major deterrent to dancing with Range Rovers.
-100% Segregation is the only circumstances that would get some to use a bike as transport, and those people are quite realistic about the likelihood of the UK achieving a 100% segregated cycling network...
I think it's important to consider these sort of perspectives when talking about why people do or don't want to cycle. Those of us that are confident enough to ride a bicycle on the Kings Highway are perhaps ascribing the wrong motives and/or projecting our own ideas onto people. But they don't come to these view points out of nowhere, influences and experience have gotten people to this point.
There are some questions that follow on for me:
Would people consider using their bike on the road in residential areas subject to a 20 mph limit? Especially if those allowed you to get to the ideal segregated routes alongside higher speed/more major routes?
If that 100% segregated cycling network existed, what would you use it for? Commuting, shopping? taking your kids places? would you replace some of your car travel with a bicycle under those circumstances?
Would/could you ever view the whole "Trust Exercise" thing as more of a "Mutual interest" one? I mean shoft the perspective from feeling you have to trust strangers with unknown motives to accepting that everyone who drives past you doesn't actually want their own day ruining with an RTC?
Quite a few of us on this thread have cycle commuted for decades so that’s rather like that saying about granny and sucking eggs.
Jeez, talk about taking a quote out of context. Did you actually read what I typed??
I typed a long reply then thought I could summarize it --
calm down, we're all in general agreement but some of us don't like being talked down to. We all commute, have done for a long time and all have different experiences. And yes, I know what the saying is.
Good comments and questions from cookeaa, but I think it focuses very much on the urban opportunities, which is not a bad thing - segregated routes and 20mph limits (together with ebikes) could and should be revolutionising how we travel in towns and cities, especially when combined with better public transport to further reduce the need for car journeys.
Our village is 2-3 miles outside the nearest town. You have to either use a pretty busy A road, with draggy/steep hills in either direction, or muddy off road tracks. There's disused railway line between the two as well, now overgrown and lost but when we came here 20 years ago it was just about passable and there were public consultations about getting it added to the Northern Greenway project - it just never happened. Even without adding any linking tracks, that project would have connected the village to all three of the secondary schools without kids needing to travel any distance on road. That's probably 200 kids a day not needing a car, or the school bus, or taking the dodgy walk across the footpaths.
It would also have opened up a cycling option for some of the kids out of school activities in town as well, normalising bike use as transport, and some sort of e-cargo bike would be viable for the local shop. Neither of the kids choose to use a bike to get into town because of that A road, but it would be a case of "build it and they will come". Eldest at least used a bike to get around at uni, so yes, they are willing when facilities are there.
I'm firmly in the "mutual interest/trust" camp. There's only a very tiny minority of drivers who would ever actively seek to hurt a cyclist, but trust and respect go both ways - if we want to be accepted as part of road traffic we need to behave responsibly as other slow moving traffic would do. Occassionally pull over if you are causing a queue - I did today a couple of times, once on a busy road with shocking parking that meant cars couldn't get past me, and once on a narrow country lane when a milk tanker was following me up a long hill. Cost me 10 seconds, if that, got me a cheery wave and thanks both times. Exactly the kind of argument we use when motorists do daft stuff to save themselves 10 seconds. It's not worth it.
don’t like being talked down to
sod it. Yeah I see, you quoted TIred's quoting me out of context, ok forget it.
But I also know that if something does go wrong I am utterly unprotected.
It all sounds like part of an FMEA/risk assessment doesn't it. Severity and Occurrence. Occurrence can remain as unlikely as you want, but the potential for severity is massive. And a helmet makes so little difference as to be irrelevant when you get collected on the bonnet of a distracted driver doing 40... Even being able to see the inevitability of it (Mirror) only helps if they've left you enough space and you have somewhere to go.
100% Segregation is the only circumstances that would get some to use a bike as transport, and those people are quite realistic about the likelihood of the UK achieving a 100% segregated cycling network…
The problem is that sooner or later, segregated infrastructure has to cross a road, and IME that's where I am most likely to experience conflict with a car.
Even being able to see the inevitability of it (Mirror) only helps if they’ve left you enough space and you have somewhere to go.
No - you are in control of that
The problem is that sooner or later, segregated infrastructure has to cross a road, and IME that’s where I am most likely to experience conflict with a car.
And yet this is managed perfectly adequately in many European cities.
Vienna for example has an extensive network of wide, well-surfaced segregated cycle lanes. No-one walks on them cos there's also wide well surfaced pavements.
Similarly, no-one cycles on the pavement because there's the aforementioned cycle lanes.
Drivers are on the road. Trams are a mix of on the road and segregated rail.
And at junctions, no-one "jumps the lights". Pedestrians and cyclists will wait patiently until the green man. There's no rushing, no pushing, it's just accepted behaviour. As a result it's extremely safe which makes it very relaxing. There's no pedestrian push and shove or "just dash across". There's no cyclist shoving to the front of the lane or "just nipping through".
It's partly cultural and partly enforced - there are always police around who take a very dim view of transgressions and will enforce immediate on-the-spot financial penalties.
As a result, everyone just co-exists. Even in cold weather there are plenty of cyclists of all ages and demographics. None of them are there because they've grown a bit of self-confidence; they're there because a mix of infrastructure and cultural norms/enforcement means it's very safe and convenient.