[Closed] Bar height: how can lower give more control?

More front wheel grip.

Lower bars work like a longer stem, putting more of your weight on the front wheel which increaces grip.

Doh, why didn't I think of that 😳 It's obvious really and that is exactly what it feels like; more grip and therefore more control.

Thanks folks.

I had two serious crashes two years ago where my front wheel washed out, and on reflection put this down to after adding a dropper, dropping and buzzing the back wheel with my butt at every opportunity. And not down to my stupid useless minion which I first blamed, now I try not to use the dropper unless I really think my under carriage will take a beating and try to stay as forward as I dare.
Now I am waiting to have a serious OTB from overweighting the bars. 😀

Barel believes a higher bar is more beneficial. I raised the bar height on both my bikes (trail/dh), went a lot quicker after.

http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/Pro-Bike-Check-Fabien-Barels-Canyon-Strive-AL,5340/Slideshow,0/sspomer,2

Same here, when I first started riding steep terrain I'd always lose the front. I always blamed tyres and to this day have a loft full of the bloody things as I tried to find one that gripped.

The problem was of course me, being new to steep stuff I was terrified and hanging off the back to avoid any OTB moments. There was virtually no weight on the front and as soon as I changed direction I crashed, with a healthy dose of Man The F@@k Up and a change to my technique I started riding with more weight on the front, hey presto the front tyre digs into the trail and changing direction no longer results in losing the front end.

Lower bars will help with this, wider bars also pitch you forward too, just do things gradually, too much at once and you may well have an OTB moment!

OK, so the fact it improved front end grip shouldn't have been a surprise. I am still surprised that a 20mm drop made such a big difference though and it has raised a few more questions:

Should I go even lower? The problem here is that dropping the bars on the Solaris 20mm just involved moving a few spacers, but to get any lower I'd need to change my 40mm riser bars. Still, it would be a good excuse to buy those Renthal carbon bars I've been eyeing up for a while 🙂

If it's just a case of loading the front end better, could I have achieved the same effect with better technique (as in the Barel link above)? Probably, yes, but whether I have the nerve to keep forward when things get scary (without a bit of help from the bars) is a different matter.

Should I try dropping the bars on the Five as well? I remember when I first posted a pic of the Five somebody on here suggested that it would be even better if I removed the spacers. I'm reluctant to try this as it feels pretty damn good as it is, but I have had a couple of front end slides recently (luckily caught both of them), so I guess it's worth a try.

I was surprised how much better control became with 20mm bars, no stem rise and no spacer stack.

Technique is important, but can be applied to improve any setup. Ultimately what works best for is personal, but tall bars seem a bit of an anachronism on trail bikes these days.

[img] [/img]

Nico Lau's bike from the Whistler EWS, granted thats a steep course.

I'd start looking at your technique, you don't necessarily need to lower your bars, look at shifting your weight further forward, your chin should be over the top cap.

I would agree that 40mm rise bars are a bit on the high side, which on a 29er will make for a high fron end. For reference, the bar height from the ground on my trail bike is 43" and my downhill bike is 45". On the trail bike I can go another 10mm higher and drop 20mm without changing bars

I never go above 20mm rise on bars, if i need more rise i'll stick a spacer under the stem but more often than not the stem is positioned straight onto the headset, in my opinion the front ends of most mountain bikes are high enough already.

I also ride road bikes and the positioning on that is very much head down/bum up so the typical MTB position feels fairly upright to me anyway....like i said experiment but change things a little at a time so you dont go too far and keep your old bars in case it doesnt work for you and you want to go back.

If the '5' feels good as is try bending your elbows more to lower your front before buying new stuff, it is a similar thing to what Barel advocates but you'll need to concentrate as the tendency will be to lapse back into your old position and you'll be losing the front again....a properly set up bars, stem etc negate the need for that level of thought as you're then effectively locked into position, i love tinkering with different bars, stems, heights etc, i have my FS and my HT quite different to each other but they both work for me, there is no such thing as one size fits all.

IMO a higher bar gives more versatility, within a certain range, it's still fairly easy to load the front with a higher bar, but you need to know what you're doing a bit more than relying on cockpit set up forcing you into that as your preferential position on the bike. It's just as important to be able to lift and float the front light as it is to push into the front.

lower doesn't give more control. neither does higher. trying to replicate your cycling pros/heros bar position is laughable.

for each rider on each bike there will be an optimum height for control. I'm anal as hell about this (thank **** for 1mm spacers)

my advice is to experiment but above all if control (rather than comfort) is your goal. on your mtb set your bar height independently of saddle height. afterall when control is required most you should be stood up.

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Following the advice in Brian Lopes book; I've always set my bars up so that they are roughly level with the saddle when the bike is just sitting there in the shed, with saddle at full climbing height.
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Must be ok for you short-arses 😉 I'm about 6" out.

Thing is, moving the controls around doesn't dictate your riding position, just the default/starting position, your elbows have a lot more influence on your body weight and position than your bars do. So you can frinstance have a higher bar then lower your weight. But sometimes, changing the control position can help force you into doing something that you're not doing through choice, hardware fix for a software probkem

Fanny about with it and see what you like. Then fanny about with it some more and see if there might be an option that works better for you even though you like it less. And then maybe fanny about with it a bit more after a while. And repeat all the fannying about on all your bikes independently.

you're wrong Northwind.

if you could jump well you'd understand why 😉

You were kinda onto something... but you need that starting position as neutral as possible. hence the importance of finding your optimum bar height

Happy New Year 🙂

Happy new year babybel! TBH I'm assuming everyone ends up with a sensible middle ground rather than going to extremes so the fannying about should get it to the right place for them... But, you're right. TBH I think most folks on here don't really do proper jumping and will be best served with something that suits their everyday riding but it's still a good point

I am still surprised that a 20mm drop made such a big difference though

I like my bars as high as I can get them before I feel disconnected with the front wheel. With wider bars you can go higher I think - there's a triangle between your hands and the front tyre contact patch and wider/lower bars let you stay in balance above the contact patch easier as you corner, but I also like getting my weight up and back.

Experiment in the real world rather than try and work it all out first.

And if you seem to be getting stuck/confused then try to make the bike [u]worse[/u], it's a great way to learn.

And re Scienceofficer above, my Pivot is cornering beautifully now but the front is a bit too low for easy floating of the front, so I'll play about some more to determine which is more important to me.

Thankfully I don't mind a few spacers above the stem, though according to some they are just waiting to stab me 🙂

20mm lower bar height gives more front wheel grip.

First joke of 2015 for me.

I went in for the lowest possible bar height for quite a while, it helps me learn the benefit of more weight over the front wheel. However as I have a bad back it just made it worse an I was in a lot of pain riding on the flat that I was very slow and so much pain when climbing I got off and walked more often than not.

I changed from a 50mm 10° stem that I ran upside down and 750mm low rise bars to a 40mm 0° stem and 780mm high rise renthal setup. My back hurt less, I can climb and ride along better than I have been able to go years and I could still get weight over the front wheel. In fact my DH riding has got much faster since the new setup.

JCL - Member
20mm lower bar height gives more front wheel grip.

First joke of 2015 for me.

Only thats not what has been said is it?....20mm lower bars can move your weight forward putting more weight on the front....is actually whats being said.

...there have also been other methods discussed, keeping bars as they were but bending at the elbows towards the bars more instead etc etc.

When i manual i shift my weight behind the rear axle and the front goes light, with a little thrust through my legs the front comes up....likewise when i want to 'stoppie' i transfer my weight forward, dab the brakes and unweight the rear so it comes up....but you're right, shifting weight fore and aft on a bike does nothing....when on a steep climb i lean forward, if i lean back the front comes up and the bike wanders all over the place....but again, must just be my imagination and i really should just sit there like a sack of spuds instead... 🙄

Only thats not what has been said is it?....20mm lower bars can move your weight forward putting more weight on the front....is actually whats being said.

Got any data to back that up or is it just a 'feeling'?

thrusting forwards and back with a deviant or JCL laying there like a sack of spuds?

I know which NYE PARTAAY I'd rather have been at! 😆

Data for how my position changed when i took the spacers out from under my bars?...yeah obviously 🙄

Nobody is saying this is the definitive route to getting more weight over the front, you can try other stuff like moving your saddle forward so its not so rear biased, bending at the elbows more to bring your torso down and forward, fitting wider bars to splay your arms and bring your torso down and forward etc etc....many ways to achieve the same goal....i merely said what works for me.

You're going to sound like a 'flat-earther' if you honestly believe that body position on the bike doesnt affect the grip available...next time you go for a ride drop your saddle and ride around hanging off the back with your arse skimming the rear tyre, see how that works for you...good luck climbing and when things get fast and you come across some fun turns enjoy the feeling of having no weight over the front and (probably) crashing.

Slammed bars are idiotic, unless you are doing lots of climbing. You can load up the front wheel without them, when needed. Lowering just means that you are weighting up the front wheel more all the time, it makes up for lazy riding technique.

If you are always in an attack position that loads up the front wheel, you are going to get fatigued more easily on long downhill runs and the playfulness of the bike is going to take a hit. It also means if you do need to move your body position further aft for whatever reason, your arms are going to be straighter/more locked out.

It's best to run bars that give you a nice neutral position, that keeps you relaxed and supple over steep rocky terrain.

You're going to sound like a 'flat-earther' if you honestly believe that body position on the bike doesnt affect the grip available...next time you go for a ride drop your saddle and ride around hanging off the back with your arse skimming the rear tyre, see how that works for you...good luck climbing and when things get fast and you come across some fun turns enjoy the feeling of having no weight over the front and (probably) crashing.

I'm not saying body position isn't important. BB location and seat position is hugely important. Bar position? hardly at all.

Bar position? hardly at all.

A good check for whether what you're saying makes sense it to take it to extremes. Stick a big handful of stem spacers on an uncut steerer, add a high rise stem and bar and try climbing anything even moderately steep. The front end will wander all over the place if you can keep it down at all - with the bars high you've just can't weight the front properly. If you only ride downhill or on the flat you can compensate with body position but not going OTB on steep downs if far more about dropping your heels and keeping your weight low (not back) than it is about bar height.

That doesn't mean the same components are right for every bike - different wheel sizes/head tube lengths/rider flexibilities/ rider heights will suit different degrees of rise.

Looking over at my current bikes I have more drop between bars and seat on my 150mm 26" sus bike than I do on my road bike

I've gone from a 60mm stem with 750mm 10mm rise bars to spacers under 35mm stem, 30mm rise 780mm carbon bars......on a Enduro 29er. Probably just under what that picture shows on N.L's bike. Seeing a pro with the same setup makes me feel better as consensus is that the front end on a 29er is high enough with a flat bar. I had a lot of hand pain as I had too much weight on the bars...also the bike cornered better with me further back..

A good check for whether what you're saying makes sense it to take it to extremes. Stick a big handful of stem spacers on an uncut steerer, add a high rise stem and bar and try climbing anything even moderately steep. The front end will wander all over the place if you can keep it down at all - with the bars high you've just can't weight the front properly. If you only ride downhill or on the flat you can compensate with body position but not going OTB on steep downs if far more about dropping your heels and keeping your weight low (not back) than it is about bar height.

The low bar fashion seems to have completely left downhill and it's just about hanging on in enduro, just saying.

Plenty of moto riders can load up the front wheel with tall bars as well, I've even learned to climb hills like you would on a motocross bike - sat back with the front wheel popping into the air all the time - don't even really have problems doing it round switchbacks. Not ideal but I enjoy the downs a lot more.

There's plenty of variation in riding styles in downhill as well, not everyone rocks the consistently low hunched Brian Lopes style - Hill and Gwin are fine examples.

on your mtb set your bar height independently of saddle height. afterall when control is required most you should be stood up.

But you set your saddle up in relation to your pedal/cranks so using your saddle as a marker to set your bars you are indirectly setting your bars in relation to your standing position.

chip - whooooooshhhh....

Have a good 2015 😀

A good check for whether what you're saying makes sense it to take it to extremes. Stick a big handful of stem spacers on an uncut steerer, add a high rise stem and bar and try climbing anything even moderately steep. The front end will wander all over the place if you can keep it down at all - with the bars high you've just can't weight the front properly. If you only ride downhill or on the flat you can compensate with body position but not going OTB on steep downs if far more about dropping your heels and keeping your weight low (not back) than it is about bar height.

My current 29" has a 40mm higher bar position to BB ratio than my old 26". The front wheel never lifts on climbs and I've been over the bars only once the entire season.

Sure there is the BB Drop factor going on but if anything that just proves how little bar height has an effect compared to other factors.

chip - whooooooshhhh....
Have a good 2015

Back atcha baby.

Surely ifs a comfort thing. You want to achieve the the feel that your legs are holding you upright not your hands. Not leaning too far forward, and not too cramped.

Do you ride clipped in or flats ?
with flats your weight will be further back.
My dh bike is set up quite low on the front and cornering is much better.

I recently went from a bit below saddle saddle height to above, maybe 25-30mm difference. I find higher better for keeping weight on the BB and for manhandling the bars about.

"Lower bars for more weight on the front tyre" makes no sense to me as everywhere else I read "light hands, heavy feet, weight over the BB".

Following the advice in Brian Lopes book; ... Barel believes a higher bar is more beneficial.

I guess this means there is no fixed rule for everyone, try it and see what works for you.

Yep it's psychological.

Oh and relating bar height to saddle height doesn't really make sense as the ratio of leg length to torso length is not a constant for humans, we vary a lot. Level with bars is perhaps a good start point for a new rider but that's all.

Do you ride clipped in or flats ?
with flats your weight will be further back.

I ride both. but when clipped in I still ride with exactly the same technique I do with flats. my cleats are also positioned as far back as poss to allow this.

with flats your weight will be further back.

Trying to work out why - cleats sit on the front part of the foot, flats you ride under your arch. Surely weight further back on cleats?

Trying to work out why - cleats sit on the front part of the foot, flats you ride under your arch. Surely weight further back on cleats?

http://m.pinkbike.com/news/The-World-Cup-Downhill-Signals-the-End-of-Flat-Pedals.html

I'm not sure I agree entirely with him though!

I realise that the pros generally don't slam their bars as much as they used to do 3-4 years ago. But also remember these are people who ride bikes competitively for a living, every day. They have far greater upper body strength than I ever will and can afford to bend their elbows all the time for an entire downhill EWS stage, for example. On the other hand, being a weaker rider I might want the bike to 'force' me to weight the front wheel without so much arm-bend, giving me front-end grip but not the feeling of each downhill being like a thousand press-ups.

For what it's worth I don't run my bars super low, but I don't think copying the pros is always the way to get faster. Especially if you're 45 with a beer-belly and weak arms.

Although the "lower bars pulling me forwards" theory makes sense, how's this for an alternative hypothesis?

If I'm used to riding the bike in a certain way then I drop the bars by 2cm, is it possibly that I (subconsciously) compensate by bending my knees a bit more, keeping my fore-aft balance the same, but dropping my CofG by a couple of cm, making the bike feel more stable?

I'd say no because I think the BB and bar height define the COG not the position of the weights they carry.

rp perhaps you've just found a position that's better for you than before, it could be that's all there is to it.

I've moved to higher than before, it feels better than before. It may be because a) I'm not very flexible and b) I have long legs/short torso for my height.

I'd say no because I think the BB and bar height define the COG not the position of the weights they carry.

No, the other way around.

No, the other way around.

fair enough. now I know why my frame design career never took off.

rp perhaps you've just found a position that's better for you than before, it could be that's all there is to it.

It could well be. It's probably only better on that bike as well and may not even be optimum next year. Perhaps we should have stopped at "just fanny about a bit" 🙂