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The reality is that not many on here are the target market, i have nice bikes, but i buy secondhand mainly, lots on this thread are the same, or would choose a more VfM bike, or another brand in that boutique price range, it is a small market here, but at present there's a lot of growth and if they plan this well and do the usual stuff they could get a foot into the market easily, it just needs a bit of effort and hard selling, they just need to convince a few to move away from that megatower, or patrol, or a following, or whatever and move to an Atherton this year, the product looks good, they just need to sell it to those who don't need much convincing!
I do think this market is growing, bike parks and so on are making it so, EMTB's are great for everything, but uplifts they do struggle, i have both, i know several others in the group who are the same, and see many more at places like BPW, 417, Wind Hill, etc doing the same.
But they have to actually be able to make enough. Pointless if you can't make hundreds of them and in a decent timescale
Then they lose the market share and get eaten by the competitors, it's already quite competitive in that market as it is, but then i've always wondered how Yeti keep selling bikes at the price they are and what you get!
Only premium brands I can think of that ‘might’ do a custom full suss (if you paid them a LOT, and were prepared to wait, if they agreed) would be BTR, Starling, Curtis etc but they’re all steel, so not really in the same market, tech wise, and it’s not something they offer as standard.
Dunno about the others but Curtis will do custom geo for the same price, says so on the website. There's also Marino. Standard offerings from both. Different ball park but same principle.
My guess is that with a single, single laser machine and ~£1m of capex investment, they'd be able to make between 200 and 300 a year at maximum output and assuming full machine reliability, operating 24/7 365. A quad laser system (RenAM500Q) would be much faster for this type of build (maybe 40-60%) dependent on layout) and an EOS M400 Quad would allow a greater build packing density (perhaps getting 2 or even 3 bikes worth of bits into a single build) and greater speed (maybe a reducing in time of 75%), but both of these machines are £1.2-1.6m so you'd need ~£2m capex to get up and running.
From the news story...
We expect the main return to come from a buy out in the future – similar to the $600m proposed sale of the bike manufacturer Canyon.
Canyon are one of the biggest players in road bikes as well as MTB, employing 850 people with €150m annual turnover.
So quite an ambitious example to choose.
Investment needs ambition 🙂
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Daffy
Full MemberMy guess is that with a single, single laser machine and ~£1m of capex investment, they’d be able to make between 200 and 300 a year at maximum output and assuming full machine reliability, operating 24/7 365. A quad laser system (RenAM500Q) would be much faster for this type of build (maybe 40-60%) dependent on layout) and an EOS M400 Quad would allow a greater build packing density (perhaps getting 2 or even 3 bikes worth of bits into a single build) and greater speed (maybe a reducing in time of 75%), but both of these machines are £1.2-1.6m so you’d need ~£2m capex to get up and running
And even then you’re just running straight into huge amount of machining required at the back end
They can lease or finance Capex right? In addition they will likely be able to get grants alongside this.
Market is global, not just UK. Think pre-COVID how many people fly into Savile Row for custom suits / shoes. They don’t have the same machining costs but their rent is significant with no government grants around R&D etc. They are just the bike equivalent at the top end.
Biggest problem to me seems brand / logo. Doesn’t seem very elite global dentist...
I haven't followed this very closely, I'm not really in their target market, I can't see me spending £3500 on a frame, on a whole bike yes, but not on a frame.
The concept seems cool, you tap your measurements into their website, it spits out a custom geo based on those and they can make you a bespoke frame. One potential barrier I can see is there's a huge amount of 'horse trading' that goes on in MTBing, a lot of people buying their new bike will at least have a thought in the back of their mind that in 2-3 years when they're ready for their next bike, they'll want to sell their current one to help fund it. How easy is that going to be. Atherton might be well served a least loosely sticking to "it's about a medium mate" labelling to help that.
I think they're wise not assume that's going to enough for them to reach their goals and they'll inevitably produce cheaper bikes in a few years before finally churning out the same sort of mid-range Asian made stuff everyone else does in 3-5 years.
I'm not bold enough to invest myself, I don't have any meaningful spare cash at the the moment and as the pitch mostly revolves about their personality rather than much else, the business / former banker part of my brain makes me wonder how many people have invested because of sound financial reasons and how many are fans willing to risk £50 for a signed Atherton Certificate. The largest investor has given them £100k so you'd hope they've got half a clue.
Their summary forecast looks about as optimistic as any I've ever read when I was an underwriter. I wonder how it compares to the first 3 years trading of the likes of Bird and YT? But they of course have a massive advantage of the 'Brand'. I wonder if R. Atherton will retire from WC racing after this has closed. Too cynical? It seems to be on the cards.
I think their success will balance on them maintaining their brand, they might the broadness of appeal in MTBing probably peaked a little while ago.
Good news for all the ‘I definitely want to buy, but won’t send an email’ types, webshop goes live today.
Frame pricing is very much top end, isn't it? About 700 quid north of Yeti et al. Wish them well, but it feels like a long time since the initial rush of publicity, they've kind of lost momentum.
Unfortunately the frame pricing is very much in the realms of fantasy for me, but then it never was going to be any different - even if you win the south coast suspension dream bike comp your looking at a mediocre build.
The extra cash for a custom frame also seems excessive as I thought that was one of the selling point for the frame construction.
How much were robot bike co frames?
With 22 sizes, you're unlikely to go custom.
What's with the bottom end Lyric on the 'cheaper' trail model! I'd have thought they'd have specced the Select+ at least.
monkeyboyjc
The extra cash for a custom frame also seems excessive as I thought that was one of the selling point for the frame construction.
It's sort of baked into the standard ones, there's 11 different reaches and a regular/tall version of each
The details on them look really nice, and love the sizing options. Had to stop watching that video up there after a few minutes due to the dullard's constant hilarious innuendo and love of his own voice. Is he that wazzock from The Inbetweeners?
Prices are,as expected, high, but next to other 'boutique' options like Yeti's Turq series and SC CC models they're cheaper for one of the numerous off the peg options, and same ballpark for the custom.
quite tempted
They look like well made well thought out bikes and the price is no surprise its thereabouts with Santa Cruz etc.
I personally could not justify spending that much on a bike when you can spend half as much on a similarly specked Bird but that's up to you as an individual.
My main gripe is the name! As silly as it is I wouldn't want a bike branded with their surname. If it was exactly the same but called something different I would prefer. Not really sure why I feel like that.
Any how they look like great bikes but I won't be buying one purely based on cost.
My main gripe is the name! As silly as it is I wouldn’t want a bike branded with their surname.
Specifically theirs, or brand name that’s the founders surname?
Specifically theirs, or brand name that’s the founders surname?
Not really thought about it for anyone else. Like I say I am not quite sure why I feel like that, and it also doesn't matter as I wouldn't buy one anyway as they are out of my price range.
On the price, I don’t think they are in the same market as SC/Yeti/sworks (yet). Comparing them to Antidote, Unno, Huhn, Actofive, project12 etc and other niche boutique euro brands puts them around the same price as those. While some well heeled noobs might buy a couple, I think it will be folk who have been riding a while, and want to build from a frame up.
Had I not just built something else, I’d be seriously considering one.
My main gripe is the name! As silly as it is I wouldn’t want a bike branded with their surname.
Same here. If you're going to all this effort to create a bike company you could at least give it a proper name.
Specifically theirs, or brand name that’s the founders surname?
A bit of both for me in this case.
Avengers graphic, 150 travel (seems low for purpose), expensive, longevity (what happens if an untested company folds in a year and you need parts?).
Prices are,as expected, high, but next to other ’boutique’ options like Yeti’s Turq series and SC CC models they’re cheaper for one of the numerous off the peg options, and same ballpark for the custom.
I know it's the 'cheaper' C carbon, but for less than the cost of the base Atherton model you can get a Hightower C in XT spec with better forks, wheels (inc I9 hubs), finishing kit (carbon bars & Burgtec stem).
If you've got the money then the higher spec Atherton seems better' value' with nicer Stans wheels, X01, RSC brakes (I'd still want Codes instead), carbon bars and Fox Factory suspension for just over £1K more.
€374 for postage to Austria? Bargain
Not sure they've to the visual appeal of an Antidote or an Unno though. They've got a much more functional look to them, which is a big thing at that end of the market
Interesting. I reckon I could name more car brands named after founders than not. Doesn’t seem to be a problem there. Is it because you know of them more through racing first, and have read loads of interviews/feel like you know them?
Or that it’s just not a very exotic name? Like Gary Fisher…
Not sure they’ve to the visual appeal of an Antidote or an Unno though. They’ve got a much more functional look to them, which is a big thing at that end of the market
There’s folk that will buy a £200k Land Rover Defender.
Is it because you know of them more through racing first, and have read loads of interviews/feel like you know them?
Definitely a bit of this. I've just always thought they had a bit of a joyless buzzkill vibe about them like they're never enjoying anything. Also it just seems lazy and it ties the bikes to people's opinion of you instead of letting them be their own thing.
I'm well impressed with the effort made to strike out on their own and the bikes look alright. Too pricy for me. I thought direct sales was supposed to mean good value.
Boardman, Isla, Hoy, Fisher, Bontrager, Ritchey, Merckx
Hardly a new idea using your name on a bike
To me it would be daft not to use the name. Surely that’s the main thing they bring to the party. Not that that I think I’d spend that on a bike. Although they look cheap as chips compared to pivot
I know it’s the ‘cheaper’ C carbon, but for less than the cost of the base Atherton model you can get a Hightower C
Santa Cruz are mass produced to a degree that these frames come no where close to. If you’re going to build 22 sizes, without contracting out to the Far East, you have to charge more. That is an inescapable reality.
If you’re going to build 22 sizes, without contracting out to the Far East, you have to charge more.
But people only need to buy one size.
Santa Cruz are mass produced to a degree that these frames come no where close to. If you’re going to build 22 sizes, without contracting out to the Far East, you have to charge more. That is an inescapable reality.
Not disputing that, just pointing go out that the budget build is miles off what can be got from a premium brand at the same price point. I appreciate that for the Atherton you’re paying a premium for the small scale local manufacture.
FWIW I think they look great and would love a go on one as really liked the DW link Turner I had a few years ago, but I don’t have the £7600 required to buy one with a decent spec and there’s too many compromises at the base spec level.
a premium brand
Premium brand and premium production methods and locations do not all go together. There is no reason at all why a Santa Cruz should cost any more than any other brand with the same scale and using the same production methods in cheaper countries (but not perceived as being so premium). These bikes aren’t just from a premium “brand” they are far more expensive to make. I can’t afford them either, but they are not comparable to Santa Cruz.
I can’t afford them either, but they are not comparable to Santa Cruz.
My point was being made in relation to posts above that were comparing SC and Atherton spec levels at the price rather than arguing that the frame manufacturing costs were comparable.
Prices are,as expected, high
Doesn't seem too over the top for a 3D printed titanium and carbon frame assembled and finished in the UK.
They really need to sort out their support structures for AM. I'm 99% certain I could print that with less than 5% of the witness marks from where the supports attach. You'd get a MUCH nicer finish and less post processing (hand fettling) after the build.
Enjoyed that Dream Build video thanks ^^^ 🙏
Of course they're going to call the bike after themselves. For these folks it's all about recognition, and outside of MTB, that name is the only thing that would have traction. The sorts of folks that'll buy these bikes have a greater chance than not of having heard of them - or if not, be impressed by their palmeres when/if they do some research into the people behind the name. I wonder who many folks that buy Merckx bikes now know anything other than the "cyclist" or same with LeMond, or Campagnolo and so and on...
I don't doubt for a minute that they'll meet their production targets.
That Dream Build video is great - impressive to see the Ti printing process and frame build.
The work that goes in to finishing the lugs etc is more than I thought it would be.
I reckon a stick on head tube badge would know £500 off the price!!
But people only need to buy one size.
Good luck to them. £6700 for the base bike is 2x outside what I would ever spend on a bike.
Seeing how robot bikes faired I think the Atherton name is vital for sales, that build video was interesting, I did wonder about the upper seattube lug, injecting glue after the tube slides through so it's not a lapped joint like the others.
There's got to be a better way to remove those lugs after printing, it's soooo labour intensive and I wonder how long before those machines will pay for themselves, its definitely a good method for custom geometry but you'd think it would be cheaper than hand laying carbon with costly molds and ovens, £4650 for custom option frame is pushing it.
I'd like to see one fully painted in colours, its not like the carbon has got an attractive weave showing like a Hope or Unno.
When you watch that video and see the work that goes in to building the frame - from printing, finishing, tube cutting, test fit and final assembly you can see where the £4k goes.
It all manufactured, assembled and finished in the UK by someone.
Compare that to £3.5k for a (mass produced - in comparison) carbon frame made overseas and it doesn't look too bad value.
Yeti SB150 Turq frame is £3.6k and looking about the same for the Santa Cruz CC frames.
Does anyone know if the Ti powder that isn't used is re-used on the next cycle?
Would be interesting to know what sort of waste and the amount they produce compared to one of the mass produced carbon frames.
As above poster - got to be a better way than using an air chisel to remove the parts from the build plate!
Good luck to them. £6700 for the base bike is 2x outside what I would ever spend on a bike
I get that, I saved for quite a while to spend a similar amount, and it wasn't a base-level bike. But personally I don't think money is the gatekeeper for mountain biking- I think it's fitness, but that's another thread. There's been 5 figure bikes for sale for decades now, and they keep on selling - S-Works always sell out and a few years back you couldn't move for eight grand Bronsons and Nomads. My only question here is when does the e-bike version hit the shelves, as that'll be the money spinner for them.
Re. the other threads, artisan bikes...
'When you watch that video and see the work that goes in to building the frame – from printing, finishing, tube cutting, test fit and final assembly you can see where the £4k goes.
It all manufactured, assembled and finished in the UK by someone'
its not like the carbon has got an attractive weave showing like a Hope or Unno.
Personally I think carbon weave looks a bit naff now, but the mention of Hope is relevant as a UK carbon manufacturer of comparable scale (but with significantly more resources).
The HB 130 is £3.6k for the frame.
The new high-pivot Hope frame will probably be nudging £4k.
I'm another rider who would only pay that much for a full bike, but maybe I can see the value in these - if they are actually good.
I suppose another good comparison would be Deviate. Small company, carbon, U.K. based. 3 sizes and made….. somewhere as a quick Google didn’t narrow down exactly where, but not Stirling. A Highlander starts at £3,100 with the cheapest shock option, £3,400 by the time you’ve got a Fox on it.
Comparing value is an interesting game
Deviates are made in the Far East, not sure which country specifically though.
Yup, assuming Taiwan but not was surprised to not quickly find the answer
Does anyone know if the Ti powder that isn’t used is re-used on the next cycle?
I think that there is a process to the recycling of the powder so not necessarily in the next cycle, but the powder is cirtainly reusable. The removable support sprigs are also recyclable iirc.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Even though I own a bike with an RRP of 7/8k, a 4k frame is going to always be out of my budget - well not without a lotto win or similar. I generally shop around for deals and rarely buy at RRP. My current bike is a custom ti hardtail which I've think I've 'spent' less than 3k on over many years of buying and selling parts and frames. </span><span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">I cirtainly wouldn't buy a fully built bike at over 6k in one go.</span>
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">An Atherton frame (currently) wouldn't be something I'd buy anyway as it's definitely not for the sort of riding I do.</span>
Another comparator are Arbr bikes, I bumped into a guy riding one at Porridgepots a few weeks ago. Handmade UK carbon, retail is £4250 with a shock.
But personally I don’t think money is the gatekeeper for mountain biking- I think it’s fitness, but that’s another thread.
Hmm, that's an interesting one. I think money totally is a gatekeeper, although I can certainly see where you're coming from in re: fitness. Will keep an eye peeled for another thread 😀
While it sounds like an Atherton frame is at least in the same ballpark as other UK built boutique carbon frames, at the end of the day the draw for this brand in particular is either the build technique(s) and the sizing flexibility which comes with that, or the association with the Athertons themselves. And you'd have to imagine with their race results and tie-in with Hardline and Dyfi Bike Park that's got to be a selling point for some people at least.
It's not something I can ever see myself buying but good luck to them 🙂
razorrazoo
Full MemberAnother comparator are Arbr bikes, I bumped into a guy riding one at Porridgepots a few weeks ago. Handmade UK carbon, retail is £4250 with a shock
From 1 extreme to the other - Arbr RB2 available in 1 (one) size
I'm still waiting for the release of the 130mm and the hardtail. Given that robot hikes had released the r130, and were flashing the r-zero around. My presumption would be that Atherton bikes purchased all the IP from robot so should just be able to settle on some sizes and they're good to go... But I fully expect the e-bike to take priority.
There was also mention on the pb comments that there might be a 'cheaper' Atherton branded bike incoming. Aluminium and far east manufactured at a more affordable price point.
There was also mention on the pb comments that there might be a ‘cheaper’ Atherton branded bike incoming. Aluminium and far east manufactured at a more affordable price point.
Well that's interesting, and what some of us said they should have been doing in the first place.
An aluminum DW bike with great geometry and reasonable pricing could be very appealing.
They’ll struggle to get parts for an ebike, tiny numbers of motors will have them a long way down the priority list
Unless you want/need custom geometry this just looks like a really expensive way to build a carbon frame.
Its basically reviving a 30 year old idea.
How is it supposed to be better than a conventional carbon frame?
They’ll struggle to get parts for an ebike, tiny numbers of motors will have them a long way down the priority list
Unless they ordered years ago.
How is it supposed to be better than a conventional carbon frame?
See your first sentence.
Powder is recycled. It’s sieved, mixed with virgin powder and reverted into the machines.
You don’t get 100% revert but it’s not far off.
As for supports being recycled, not without significant energy input. Needs melting and alloying, then atomising. Could ball-mill (gaffaw) but that leads to poor morphology, so only good for other processes where flow is less important.
“How is it supposed to be better than a conventional carbon frame?”
I think the other argument (than ease of changing geometry) was that this approach is stronger and tougher than full carbon by using titanium for all the complex shapes and keeping the carbon for simple tubes.
Look at that Arbr RB2 !! Cor!
Luckily I am too short and it is also £££££s.
We can't really compare it to carbon frames, it's the titanium lugs that are the detail and the main cost here, they just buy in batches of straight carbon tubes, cut to size and glue them in, they aren't making carbon, they could just as easily use something else for the tubes.
But I hope they get that glue at a good price, most of it gets wiped off with a rag 😀
We can’t really compare it to carbon frames, it’s the titanium lugs that are the detail and the main cost here
Fair comment.
There's definitely a "something a bit different" premium attached to them, and that's totally fine if that's what people want.
It's good that they're planning some cheaper products as well though, as I still don't anticipate much demand for these.
Think they've had a fair few orders - build completion dates now showing as end of April.
tomhoward
Full Member
Unless they ordered years ago.
Yup, was thinking that when i wrote my comment. From Ethic/Bird discussions there are issues ordering ahead iirc though?
There was also mention on the pb comments that there might be a ‘cheaper’ Atherton branded bike incoming. Aluminium and far east manufactured at a more affordable price point.
They’ve taken the effort to prefix the frame names with AM (they’re called the AM.150 and AM.200). Presumably AM = additive manufactured (3D printed).
I would imagine that this is to allow them to add another prefix for conventionally manufactured bikes. Perhaps AL for aluminium or similar. Which obviously aligns with the comment on Pinkbike.
I really like these bikes, but I’m a bit biased because I have made additive manufactured (3D printed) titanium cranks…
I am a bit put off by the 18 bearings in each frame though, sounds like a maintenance nightmare.
We can’t really compare it to carbon frames, it’s the titanium lugs that are the detail and the main cost here, they just buy in batches of straight carbon tubes, cut to size and glue them in, they aren’t making carbon, they could just as easily use something else for the tubes.
Why not? They are two different ways of making a frame. If one is more expensive it needs to offer an advantage to be able to command a higher price.
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dirkpitt74
Full MemberThink they’ve had a fair few orders – build completion dates now showing as end of April
Wouldn’t be a surprise if 3 months was the lead time if you were ordering the very first frame, or any frame thereafter
Wrong type of bike for me and at the very wrong end of cost for me - but I really like the idea of them. Bit disappointed to hear if they are going to be making 'cheaper' bikes in the Far East - that kind of removes the appeal and distinctiveness from them for me.
Saying all that, way too expensive for me so not something I'm every going to be buying.
Found that video very relaxing. Bit of a shame to cover all the interesting Ti bits in black paint, keen to see the raw finish. Some really nice touches with the frame design. Still not sure it looks a £4K frame though, maybe partly because its basically the same bike everyone saw six years ago and hasn't really changed since.
The original Robot Bikes had raw finish titanium lugs into the carbon tubes; it looked like drainpipes held together with duct tape. The all black looks much better.
They could oil slick anodise the lugs…
Yeah, I'm not sure how you'd make them look different. The construction very much defines the look. Can machine or refinish the lugs but the straight carbon tubes are what tthy are.
I really like what they are doing and hope they do well. Always nice to see top end manufacturing in the UK.
It's a very tough sell though IMO.
I put in the numbers on the site and it seems I'd be limited to a 125 dropper. Erm, no thank you sir. I've got kinda used to my 175 and have no wish to downsize. My 125 reverb is great on my gravel bike, but not on an enduro bike.
That seems a major oversight to me.
Then there's the price. It's a lot. I'd probably stretch to it if it offered something truly unique in ride quality, but the money is possibly better spent elsewhere.
Weight.
Folk obsess over frame weight.
I don't really, hence currently enjoying my slightly chunky Starling Murmur in all its steely glory. Frame weight is about 8lbs I believe.
Frame weight of the AM150 is 3.65KG according to the Athertons on the PB question session earlier today.
About the same then...
Suspect that'll be a big turnoff for some.
Looks.
Important at this price. I reckon the bike looks fine really, but plenty others look much nicer.
My own Starling for one, but also the current crop of Transition bikes and Mondrakers.
The DW6 pedalled really nicely when I had a demo of the Robot bike many moons ago, but **** looking after all those bearings 🙂
Single pivot and a good shock for me please.
I enjoyed that build video. Also helped get my head around the DW6 set up. Way more bike than I need and way too expensive for me, but a lovely looking thing
Looks awesome, love to see co and projects like this in the UK. Far too many smart people and engineers working for advertising / data collection startups. IMO they should be encouraged, on the end of government grants like a politicians drinking pal selling ppe last year and helped to scale.
Value is relative but I’d put money on them just breaking even / making a loss on each sale right now. They will need the mass production frames in the Far East to pay for the R&D for additive manufacturing in the UK. Again, totally fine with this. Fine line to balance with brand, I hope they are able to pull it off.
At the top of my list right now for next bike to last me to retirement from gnar.
Good luck to them. £6700 for the base bike is 2x outside what I would ever spend on a bike.
Yea, same here. A Spesh S-Works ebike tops out at £13700 though so we are clearly not these manufacturers target market.
Great input from the Atherton team on PinkBike:
https://m.pinkbike.com/news/ask-us-anything-atherton-bikes-on-launching-direct-to-consumer-sales.html