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Ed probably left because
Wonder what’s going on there as Companies House says he’s no longer a director, but he’s listed as being in the team on the pitch deck.
The name on the downtube wouldn't put me off but the price and the CDT-project aesthethics potentially would.
When it was first announced I did think they should have just gone into reaonably priced aluminum-framed MTBs with excellent geometry. There was still a decent gap in the market then IMO, but it's closing up more recently.
^^^ This.
I can't imagine one of these will be cheaper than a Geometron, and when you think that a snip over £3k gets you a G1 frame with EXT shock, custom tuned for you and configured to suit, the Atherton bike will have to offer something really special in terms of performance and support.
who knows about why Ed left, perhaps he had just agreed to stay on for a year to help them set everything up, and that's done.
I hope the project succeeds, there's no reason why it can't, the bikes (as Robotbikes) got almost universal praise from reviewers, from what I've seen of them they look great, and ride really well. It's great to see a mountain biking race team transfer itself to making bikes.
When it was first announced I did think they should have just gone into reaonably priced aluminum-framed MTBs with excellent geometry. There was still a decent gap in the market then IMO, but it’s closing up more recently.
Like;
https://www.privateerbikes.com
Yes, and there are a few more decent options now too.
They wouldn't have had to go that cheap even. They could have done a lighter frame with DW link and LLS geometry and sold direct to consumer a bit cheaper than the big brands.
Still, there's probably a reason that everybody isn't doing something like that. Must be harder than it looks from the outside.
I like the bikes but agree with some of the points above (as if they care ha ha). I feel like an Atherton branded bike should be a 'bike for the people' not a boutique bike that hardly anyone racing can afford. A modern day 2006 Giant Glory! the sort of bike you see at the races because they are 'cheap' and they work. Give it progressive geometry, parts spec that favours brakes over gears, and reasonably overbuilt frame that can take a good beating. It feels like the person who buys an Atherton it's current form are going to be middle-aged, loaded and will ride it around Follow The Dog.
Interesting turn of events.........
Atherton bikes seeking around £600k in crowd funding investment
You can invest for as little as £11
keep up at the back 😉
So...
what proportion of the £600k target will be raised from the STW massif?
£600k is the total amount, most of that has already been raised from angel investors, with a (small) bone seemingly being thrown to the MTB community, presumably for more publicity.
Well I've registered, be interesting to see what levels of funding they pitch it all at and what you get for the price. The £11 doesn't interest me but if they have an option around the £1-200 mark I'll be looking at it properly. I loved the tech behind RobotBikes and had a good chat to them up at Fort William back in 2016, seeing as this is essentially the same company I'll be happy to take a small punt on helping them do well.
si77
So…what proportion of the £600k target will be raised from the STW massif?
£11.00.......
what proportion of the £600k target will be raised from the STW massif?
£500 + vat?
It's a shame Gee isn't competing at the sharp end of the downhill on an Atherton bike. I think that would generate a lot more interest in the crowd funding.
It’s a shame Gee isn’t competing at the sharp end of the downhill on an Atherton bike. I think that would generate a lot more interest in the crowd funding.
IT'd be quite interesting to see him on something else, just to compare if it's him or the bike.. I think that must be going through peoples minds when considering buying one...
Charlie is doing better than him on it, but still only 'OK' in a context of the sport, not setting the world on fire on it.
I wonder though how much of a factor it plays in peoples decisions, do people buy the bike that the top racers are riding ? Are Santa Cruz and Commencal dominating market sales in the DH bracket for example ?
I wonder though how much of a factor it plays in peoples decisions, do people buy the bike that the top racers are riding ?
It probably helps that the bikes the top riders are racing on are not using additive / 3D print technology and the bikes don’t look unfinished. I’ve seen an Atherton bike in the flesh and I certainly wouldn’t buy one. The bike I seen looked a bit industrial and thrown together. So many other nicer finished options out there for way less money and risk!
If they are struggling to sell 50, they’ll certainly not be selling 7500 in 5 years! Info on their website is super vague too, doesn’t really give you a sense of security when spending that amount of money.
do people buy the bike that the top racers are riding ?
Historically, yes. Orange, Trek, Specialized, Santa Cruz have all had bikes blow up in popularity because of a winning rider.
Are Santa Cruz and Commencal dominating market sales in the DH bracket for example ?
Definitely. The bikes you see at races, uplift days and resorts always reflect the most successful race bikes of recent years. V10's, Supremes and Demo's are everywhere. No one is riding a Polygon or a Radon or something.
Investment opportunity, but still private company, making selling your investment... potentially difficult.
I don't think I would be banking on this making me much money ever. I guess you would possibly do better investing elsewhere.
That being said, like all these things, its a guess and a gamble, maybe Atherton bikes goes big time, sell loads, and your investment turns out brilliantly.
For me, not really seeing the gap they are filling, and for some time, not a lot seems to have happened, so, either a great time to get in, or just chucking some money to help/feel part of it?
I still don't get it. Having just visited the website, it would still appear that I can't actually buy a bike. Isn't that the point of Atherton Bikes?
Perhaps this is the understated marketing strategy and longest teaser campaign of the century but I doubt it.
Why start a bike brand when you don't have the means to actually make a bike, and when your own equity is on the downward?
Somebody is either giving them duff advice, or they have the misplaced self confidence to do it their own way, but what worked on the racing circuit doesn't necessarily translate into business.
I have spent Atherton money and more on frames in the past, but always from reputable brands with good reputations for warranty support long into the future. Spending that much on an unproven bike from a brand this flaky would be a huge leap of faith, and not one I would be prepared to take.
As an investor, other than the really big corporates (Trek, Specialized and Giant), I don't see many people having made huge amounts from running bike companies. It would be an emotionally justified punt, not a cold hard investment decision. As a result, I also don't see much of an opportunity for a sell-off in the future.
Investment opportunity, but still private company, making selling your investment… potentially difficult.
This is from the FAQ section of the website.
When you invest in equity you buy a percentage or share of a business. Hopefully the business you have backed goes on to make an ‘exit’ (by via a sale to another company) at a higher value than when you invested, and you will get a return on your investment and make a profit.
Atherton Bikes is a private company, which means it doesn’t trade on a stock exchange. This means you can only sell Atherton Bikes shares when a ‘liquidity event’ occurs., that is when the whole or part of the company is sold, it lists on an exchange, or it sells a major asset such as a brand.
Suggests to me that the plan is to try to make the company a viable going concern then sell it on.
Exactly, but its not in your control.
You cant decide 'now' is the right time, or I need to liquidate some of my assets 'now'
Fine if you go into it eyes open, and this works for you. For me, in my situation, it doesnt.
*bookmarked for when in 3 yrs time Atherton bikes is sold to GIANT and your £11 investment is work 11k 😉
Target hit in just under half an hour...
I failed the questionnaire lol
I bunged them some cash, not because I'm wanting a financial return but because I like the design and manufacturing side of what they are doing.
Also chucked them some money - not a huge amount, but it all adds up.
I really hope they can get the bikes produced in sufficient quantity and quality to get them selves out there a bit more.
I'm all for innovation in engineering and also something different in MTB.
Got the email this morning while I was just about to go out on the bike, came back and they've smashed their funding!! Still put £54 in as I won that on the lottery last week so if I lose it it doesn't really matter, if I gain it's money towards bike stuff.
Be interesting to see how quickly they do grow now after this crowdfunding, they are completely different to the rest of the market and have a unique setup. Be fun to watch it all 'from the inside' as it were too.
Decided to take a £2k punt on it. Could be a decent investment.
It's a weird one. Invest because you like the project, but you can only make money if they sell out or go public. Neither of those things have been historically good for bike companies, with the heart usually ripped out of them.
I think if I'd done it (which I haven't) it would have been for a low amount just to help them out and to feel a little 'invested' in their progress.
Any ongoing costs to buying some shares? Was looking at 20 shares so I'm thinking tax relief will be non-existant (not a problem), but any ongoing costs as an owner of shares in a private company? Is my 83 quid all I'll be paying until they sell out and I get money back on the shares I own (not expecting that to happy any time soon).
1 year and haven't sold 50 units and in 5 years going to sell 7500 ?
I wouldnt spend the kind of money they are asking for, on a brand that is clearly in difficulty. (unless people dont think that asking the public to donate money is odd)
As an investment, it's like throwing money onto a fire. No, at least a fire warms you up.
So the bikes are really the advert for the brand yet their performance seems a bit below the competition?
eddiebaby
Full MemberSo the bikes are really the advert for the brand yet their performance seems a bit below the competition?
Are you ignoring the two World Cup wins last year on purpose, or have you forgotten?
JP
I wouldnt spend the kind of money they are asking for, on a brand that is clearly in difficulty. (unless people dont think that asking the public to donate money is odd)
Having read the documents and actually been very close to investing, I would say that the company is attempting to expand rather than being in trouble. Of particular note is that a £1,000,000 R&D loan has been secured, dependent on £500,000 being raised in this *share issue. Just short of £900,000 has been raised so far which suggests that there is plenty of interest in the brand.
What put me off in terms of an investment (rather than just giving money to support a business) is that, as mentioned in other posts above, I can't really envisage a situation where a successful small bike company is bought for a significant amount by an established name.
*my words
1 year and haven’t sold 50 units and in 5 years going to sell 7500
I don't think that 3D printed Ti & carbon tubed bikes will be the bread an butter of those 7500, they are also looking at kids bikes and ebikes, which is where, I think, the sales will come from.
I don’t see how they will be able to sell it for a significant sum in the future because the only thing they have to sell is the name. They don’t own the ip for the manufacturing technique and anyone can commission Dave Weagle to design the rear suspension and kinematics so what would a future buyer be getting? I just don’t see how selling it on is a realistic exit strategy.
Anyone on here invested enough ££ to get the free frame and personal coaching session with an Atherton deal?
Why would they need to spend £1m on R&D?
Isn't that the only bit they've actually done so far?
Why would they need to spend £1m on R&D?
Isn’t that the only bit they’ve actually done so far?
I'm assuming it's for phase 2 R&D for more accessible mass production type bikes, testing/approval costs, salaries for R&D staff etc.
If you work on the usual basis that a staff member costs a business about 2.5 times salary, and there's a £200k salary bill for a few designers/engineers, that's instantly £500k real costs sunk, before you look at sampling, materials, all the hidden costs of the R&D process like couriers, travel, admin time cost etc etc.
All of a sudden the £900k grant from the Welsh government isn't actually that massive.
How could it possibly be a good idea to spend a million quid on R&D for very niche, expensive MTBs?
How could it possibly be a good idea to spend a million quid on R&D for very niche, expensive MTBs?
If they want to do r&d inhouse, Ti 3D printers don’t come up on eBay that often?
I took that to mean "why spend a million quid as you'll never sell enough of them to make it back again".
I could be wrong of course. 😉
After you've designed a bike and perfected the prototype there's a cost to putting something into production - warehousing, tooling, staff, materials etc can far exceed the costs of just putting a few bikes together especially if you want to go big.
I took that to mean “why spend a million quid as you’ll never sell enough of them to make it back again”.
I could be wrong of course. 😉
Pretty much that yes.
Seems like a very big gamble to me, considering the lack of public enthusiasm for the bikes so far.
tomhoward
Full MemberIf they want to do r&d inhouse, Ti 3D printers don’t come up on eBay that often?
I don't know if it's the same kit but Renishaw came to one of our events with assorted 3d printed toys, including one of the Empire bikes. Best day at work ever, it was genuinely my job to ride it round the conference centre doing skids for half an hour, in a suit. (later in the day, it was my job to help kids assemble balsa-wood-and-rubber-band planes, and then fire them around the room)
Anyway. I asked what the real world cost was, and he said basically, it's machine time (because any time they're printing a bike, they're not printing a satellite or a bit of jet engine or similar), and setup. The machines themselves are expensive but the cost of a full load of titanium feedstock was, well, more than the sums of money in this thread.
It looks to me like they needed to raise match funding to get grant money out of the government. Nowt wrong with that, there’s plenty of businesses running on money given to them when they aren’t viable. It’s not a loan so spend it till it runs out and as for more. Aim is probably get given more money or sell out.
What I don’t get is how it’s ever going to be profitable knowing the bill of materials costs of doing a frame like this. Robot appeared to do it by not paying their 3D printing invoices according to they liquidation statement with a crazy number owed to I think HIETA.
First the print is expensive even if you own the printer. I know Renishaw are selling off older machines for cheaps but material cost per print is a lot. Then you have to do loads of post machining. Then buy all the other parts and assemble.
That said when you can buy a taiwan made sub 50 minimum order full sus frame for $250 which people lap up for £2000 in the shops, maybe it’s possible. It’s a money game, you just need more.
Maybe they will just buy some Asia frames and rebrand or sell kids bikes who knows. I don’t understand where this is going.
Neil SuperstarComponents
they are also looking at kids bikes and ebikes, which is where, I think, the sales will come from.
Definitely ebikes as they are building an ebike trail at Dyfi
Kids bikes sounds good, does that mean a carbon kids bike at Halfords pricing?
They need to get Matt Walker riding their bikes, he’s a local lad to where they used to live
Hold on a moment those 3d printers cost lots in parts lasers don’t last forever the Uni place in Sheffield has machines from arcan? From the tour I did of the Uni one year the cost of the machine is 0.5 million and they were alluding that half a mil was gone from the day it lands on the workshop floor it’s very hard to recover the costs without courting the aerospace and medical people where the money is
From the press gubbins of Robot some / one the staff worked for Hieta which means it could have been a loss leader to drum up business as some of these things often can be.
As someone on another thread pointed out however a company called Bastion is doing OK selling 20k road bikes doing the same construction , even when they look like a giant cad ex from the 90s.
They need to get Matt Walker riding their bikes
Only if they could spin that as "R&D" somehow.
Robot appeared to do it by not paying their 3D printing invoices according to they liquidation statement with a crazy number owed to I think HIETA.
The irony of @superstarcomponents talking about owing people money!
Still trolling and sniping a decade on I see. Munrobiker.
Dangerously close to libel there
Neil SuperstarComponents
Only if they could spin that as “R&D” somehow.
Suspect they probably could! My understanding is that the definition of what constitutes R&D for funding purposes can be pretty broad.
Plenty of co’s out there making high end road bikes with custom geom at £3-20k for people with random shape bodies and big budget.
This investment will give them enough to expand portfolio in a car co kind of way:
Kids bikes - High margin Taiwan cat
Mid range - High margin Taiwan cat
High end customs - Robot
They could go full Hope and start pushing UK carbon production for their non custom / mid range bikes.
My problem with Uk manufacturing / business is very few think long term. If they are able to scale up and say over 20yrs the cost of carbon production / 3D printing significantly decreases alongside manufacturing automation... Who is to say they can’t be knocking out custom bikes like Nike are custom trainers.
All most UK investors think about is 3yr plan which is bull. It takes time and resource to build a decent co.
Granted it’s a long shot but even if they fail the IP and R&D is still there for someone to pick up. People in the Uk will get jobs on the back of it and if they will contribute to Nat Ins payments regardless.
I hope they do well regardless if I’m in their target market or not.
Maybe they will just buy some Asia frames and rebrand or sell kids bikes who knows. I don’t understand where this is going.
Don't know if you registered for the investment opportunity but the info that you got if you did explained it all if you delved into the details. They want to get a full range of bikes for kids and families at the regular price points to bring in the money and make the company viable. The bikes they currently do will then be the high-end range that the more discerning customer goes for, a bit like Trek do with their normal bike and the Project 1 offering. I don't think they want to get too mass market though, just a good range of bikes that have a bit of brand kudos. If they can get to the stage where their kid's bikes have a similar following to IslaBikes, where they hold their value well and are a cut above the regular stuff, then they'll do well on that side.
The tax reliefs should help - you should get 30% back as an income tax refund under EIS and then if the business does fail, you can set the loss against your income. Net cost would be 42p for every £1 invested if you're a 40% taxpayer.
steelbike
Free MemberHold on a moment those 3d printers cost lots in parts lasers don’t last forever the Uni place in Sheffield has machines from arcan? From the tour I did of the Uni one year the cost of the machine is 0.5 million and they were alluding that half a mil was gone from the day it lands on the workshop floor it’s very hard to recover the costs without courting the aerospace and medical people where the money is
The volume they'd have to be producing to actually make printing inhouse viable would be huge. I think realistically the only reason they would want their own printers, is so that they can sell the machine time to more profitable industries tbh.
I guess the key question there is, is there surplus or shortage of titanium additive manufacturing in industry just now? Is it getting harder to be a customer and better to be a producer?
But at the end of the day, if it makes good business sense to buy massively expensive hardware and then sell the capacity outwards, it probably makes sense to stop making bikes, and focus on making rocketships.
Are you ignoring the two World Cup wins last year on purpose, or have you forgotten?
Sorry. Just saw this. Yes forgotten. But then again it was Rachel racing at her normal high level. You’d have say the bike certainly wasn’t holding her back didn’t push anyone forward though and a lot of brands scored higher.
They are lovely, I appreciate the manufacturing process, I like the Athertons as racers/people. Won't buy one as I can't afford one.
Possibly the issue for some potential customers, is how do you justify to youself/the wife that your bike needs replacing because geometry has moved on, when you bought a custom geo frame? Its the very pinnacle of admitting that you just followed internet trends and hae no clue what you are on about.
What are they doing differently to robot bikes, why did robot bikes go under, why will Atherton bikes succeed when robot bikes didn't.
greeny30
Free MemberWhat are they doing differently to robot bikes, why did robot bikes go under, why will Atherton bikes succeed when robot bikes didn’t.
You know it's just a continuation of Robot, with some extra people involved and a different name?
why will Atherton bikes succeed when robot bikes didn’t.
If they do, it'll be because they diversify into cheaper, metal bikes sourced from Asia.
But it's a big if.
It worries me that inexperienced people, who know nothing about marketing, manufacture, running a business, have sunk their well earned cash into this. I hope they diversified their protfolio and have moeny elsewhere because Robot was a solution to a non problem for 99% of bike purchasers.
The 1% who crave custom bikes and will pay 3 times as much, already have a saturated market to pick from.
The 1% who crave custom bikes and will pay 3 times as much, already have a saturated market to pick from.
Is that true? I'm not sure there are many people looking for custom geo, but I can only think of Nicolai off the top of my head. Do Stanton?
Atherton frames are about the same price as an off the peg frame from the premium brands, certainly not 3 times as much.
Carbon Wasp in Leeds can do you a full custom carbon frame, sky is the limit on price but about £3k if you take their design and plug your numbers in.
Only premium brands I can think of that ‘might’ do a custom full suss (if you paid them a LOT, and were prepared to wait, if they agreed) would be BTR, Starling, Curtis etc but they’re all steel, so not really in the same market, tech wise, and it’s not something they offer as standard.
Deleted. Misread a post, and responded with nonsense! Sorry!
But it's more like 0.01% of MTBers who might want custom geometry on a carbon FS frame.
There's just not a viable business focusing on that, IMHO.
Perhaps if they could find a way of popping out the standard geo frames on par with most other brands (not just the super-spendy brands like Yeti and SC), they'd be a better proposition.
chakaping
Only if they could spin that as “R&D” somehow.
I'd say testing prototypes in race conditions easily fits that brief.
But it’s more like 0.01% of MTBers who might want custom geometry on a carbon FS frame.
There’s just not a viable business focusing on that, IMHO.
Exactly, I think thats why Robot went absolutley nowhere. Dinky tech, but no market.
when I saw robot bikes at fort bill a few years ago they were talking 6k for a frame.
when I saw robot bikes at fort bill a few years ago they were talking 6k for a frame.
IIRC Athertons are £3400 a frame. A Yeti SB165 frame is £3800, SWorks enduro is £4K
It looks nice, it has a decent enough suspension design and construct, it'll work well and will be niche, cost wise, well we live in the world now of 3.5k frames, you go and buy a spesh enduro or a santa cruz cc or whatever and it's over 3k.
They'll more than likely sell well, but they do need to take advantage of the current selling buzz, so hopefully someone in the company has set up the C2W stuff to allow those who have 6k or whatever budgets to get in on that, same with folk after some type of financing deal, if you want to sell frames at 3.5k and 6k builds, you need to make it appealing.
They’ll more than likely sell well, but they do need to take advantage of the current selling buzz, so hopefully someone in the company has set up the C2W stuff to allow those who have 6k or whatever budgets to get in on that, same with folk after some type of financing deal, if you want to sell frames at 3.5k and 6k builds, you need to make it appealing.
Not convinced they will you know. They need a bit more 'presence' to sell big numbers of units like SC and Specialized. The 0% or even 9.9% finance will play a massive factor too.
weeksy
Not convinced they will you know. They need a bit more ‘presence’ to sell big numbers of units like SC and Specialized. The 0% or even 9.9% finance will play a massive factor too.
Some of their recent social media talks about how they kept a low profile, as their capacity was full from delivering race bikes and the first 50 customer orders ,I think the fundraising is with a view to ramping up the numbers
But it’s more like 0.01% of MTBers who might want custom geometry on a carbon FS frame.
which says more about your knowledge of how wealthy ( and I mean seriously wealthy) folk spend their money...I did a stint in between roles installing garage furniture for v rich folk who have a showy car , it was the sort of cupboards and tool chests that you see in BMW garages and the Aston Martin factory. The company I worked for were literally struggling to keep up with demand for the amount of folk who had the £10-50k to spend on metal cabinets for their garages... we were even being flown out to Europe to install colour co-ordinated stuff to match ferraris and lambos...it was insane
the bikes and kit these folk have is just madness, I saw plenty of £10K road bikes that had been bought on a whim, and ridden maybe once or twice. These folk don’t think twice about dropping a few £k on bikes that they’ll ride maybe once or twice, and there are thousands of these people in just the UK alone.
different world
Nickc - I said 0.01%, which is one-in-10,000.
Do you reckon more than that are in the super-rich category which you describe?
Was going to say: went to one place in Nottinghamshire, and was amazed to see a bike shops worth of SC bikes in his double garage (was a separate building with a flat on the second floor) and speaking to the bloke, he was a bike nerd, but couldn’t decide which bike he really liked, so he’d bought one of each, in each colour...
Cha****ng you said 0.1 of the MTB crowd...these are just regular wealthy folk, they’ll see something like this and they’ll want it “just” because it’s the most expensive.
if I was going into the bike market, it’s where I’d be going. Sod producing mass made with teeny% on each frame, aim for top dollar
Typical single laser AM machines are £500-^£600k, but that's just the start, then you need to think about sieving stations (£50), powder blenders (>£70k), powder storage (full climate controlled room), argon use (££££££ dependent on the machine), build plate skimming, wireEDM to get parts off the plate, heat treatment ovens for stress relieving, grit blasters, etc , etc.
Ti powder for laser machines typically costs between €140 and €220/kg and you typically need over 100kg of it to fill a build chamber. You'll get back most of what you don't use, but can lose kgs of powder through the filters.
Assuming staff time, machine amortisation over 3 years, service contract, post-processing (heat-treatment, blasting, grinding), etc - you're probably looking at about €5-6k per build for about 3-5kg of parts (a single bikes worth, maybe a little more) and assuming only 2-3 builds per week. You've then got the super expensive carbon tubes, the design work, the data prep work and assembly/inspection.
It's hard to see how you can make any money unless you already own the machine. If you did, then materials, maintenance and labour could be under £1500.
It's also worth saying that only an idiot would have only one machine when their business relied on it. These things can go wonky and can take a while to diagnose and repair.
Sadly I also think the market is moving away from Robot/Atherton. I'd say that the majority of people who would think about dropping £6000-£8000 on a MTB are more likely to consider an ebike at the moment.
I wouldn't, but then I'd struggle to justify much over £2500, so clearly am not the target audience.
With road bikes I can see a much better justification for custom sizing because it’s a far more mature field and bikes vary much less in geometry. But with MTBs things have changed so much in the last decade, and suspension travel, riding style and terrain all have big effects on preferred geometry for a given size of rider.
That’s what would put me off a custom frame - and I think I’m more clued up than most about geometry. And without going custom I don’t see enough benefit of this expensive manufacturing technique.