[Closed] At what point is it worth getting a MTB to replace a gravel bike?

It's an age old question. "Do i need a racer bike to go fast" "Do i need a DH bike to do the blacks"

The answer is always NO, you don't need them.. .but they will make it easier with a certain level of ability (or lack of it)

The big enduro bikes are known as skills compensators. They enable you to ride harder things quicker...

The MTB will enable you to do harder and more gnarly stuff yes.. .without doubt.. But a teeny bit slower than the gravely thing on the easy/roady stuff.

Gravel bikes are great off road until they're not and it sounds like you've found the point where you would have had more fun with flat bars, upright stance and bigger tyres. It's not a MTFU thing, just about having the right bike for the circumstances or choosing the right circumstances for the bike you have.

You obviously *can* ride the stuff you are riding, but it's getting towards the point another bike would be nice.

I think particularly if you're new to things a nice trail FS will open up a lot and help you find your limits without too much punishment. A friend (quite new to MTBing) recently upgraded from a basic HT to a decent mid range FS and her confidence has come on a lot even in a small number of rides.

Of course you don't want to replace the gravel (or adventure road) bike, you need to supplement it. n+1. Disappointed nobody else has pulled you up on this yet.

Just get a mountain bike, they're so much more capable, fun, and won't be out of fashion by next year.

1997

Doing a variety of riding all on one ride will always make a bike compromised.  Where I live the more technical stuff I can ride makes up about 2% of my ride so for me I make do with a 25c tyre fixed gear as it is the bike I enjoy the most for the the road and gravel (and is my only bike).

I still enjoy riding up and down more technical stuff on a fixed gear but I certainly wouldn't win any races.  If a mountain bike was the better bike for 50% of my ride I would have a mountain bike as they are still okay on gravel and good enough on road.

No need to replace the gravel bike at all. For some trails it will be more suited. n+1 is your friend.

Depends what you mean by gravel bike, if the one you have will take >40mm tyres or even a 650B tyre that is even wider you can tackle most things. Tyre width and tread pattern I find are the most limiting factor. Plus brakes of course!

I find the riding position of a gravel bike with standard (or only mildly flared) drop bars to be more of a limiting factor than the tyres.

With 43mm gravelkings in my rigid MTB and a dropper post, I feel pretty comfortable offroad on things far beyond gravel. More comfortable than I imagine I would on a drop-bar bike with the seat up with much bigger 29er tyres.

What handlebars are you running? If you haven't already tried them, something like On One Midges, or Genetic Digest bars could be all you need. Perhaps with a shorter stem and a cheap dropper post like this?

https://www.kssuspension.com/product/eten/

Tyre width and tread pattern I find are the most limiting factor. Plus brakes of course!

I think one of the big differences is the bars and more upright position of an MTB. (The flat bar gives you better braking, but it also provides better control and stability in my opinion. Holding on to the hoods, or the drops, or the tops never feels right to me on the really rough stuff)

It's a question of what you enjoy. A gravel bike with big tyres will handle most of what an XC bike will. But if you prefer the off-road stuff, and you don't mind the limitations on the road, go for the mountain bike. If you're linking up long rides with long stretches of road and gravel with 5 mins of rough stuff thrown in, then gravel bike is no-brainer. Ultimately though, it's the bike you will enjoy riding and feel most comfortable on.

You have hit N+1.

From the very first moment you bought your " gravel " bike ..

I recommend n + steel hardtail

Depends on the size of the boulders.

I started exploring tracks on my touring bike (they call them gravel bikes) - crossing the Ochils and through the local glens. Some days I'd do 80 miles plus, mixing roads, track and hill paths. I'd then stay overnight in a hostel and cycle home the next day.

The decision point is when you spend more time carrying than riding.

I also ride a fair bit in the Pentlands. From your description I'd say that you've hit the point where riding will be more enjoyable on a mtb than a gravel bike.

The answer is n+1 - 29er HT.

There's probably a lot more you can get out of your bike both through your skills and ensuring you're set-up correctly.  As commented, the biggest tyres you can fit, tubeless running at a lower pressure means you're not pinging off rocks or risking punctures on things like water-bars. If you can get your weight well back and have decent brakes you can roll-down most stuff, improving your confidence as you go along. Worth riding with a more experienced buddy too to see if you can learn from the lines they take and their techniques - its a lot easier when you can follow a more experienced rider.

I used to live in Balerno so the Pentlands was my back yard. I enjoyed riding "CX" more than MTB up there - and we're talking 35mm tyres. There's really not much that needs a MTB of any sort (Black Hill excepted)

A lot of people like to point out you can ride anything on any bike. It's true, but the right bike for the terrain makes things easier and more fun, especially if you don't have pro skills.

I have a FS mountain bike and a gravel bike. I've ridden the mountain bike on the road and the gravel bike on singletrack. It can be fun, it's certainly a lot more challenging, but there's nothing wrong with having more fun, having more confidence and being less likely to hurt yourself on the right bike.

My gravel bike is great for exploring back lanes and bridleways and taking detours into the woods. It gets me out of town under my own power with a lot less effort than the MTB. If I'm heading somewhere I know is rougher, or trails designed for a mountain bike, I'll take that.

There's a local off-road sportive, The Tour of the Cornfields. It's 100km of fairly tame bridleways. Last year I did it on my cross bike (a gravel bike with less marketing). About 75km in I would have gladly swapped it for a nice comfy 29er, like the one I had left at home that day.

To OP:

I'd frame your question as: is a MTB faster than a gravel bike on a flat-out up and down Maidens from Glencourse Rez?

The answer for me as a similarly crap bike handler is that a gravel bike is miles faster.

Even if you frame the question as: which is more fun? The descent on a MTB is obviously faster but not much of a challenge.

I'd suggest you need a much more technical parcours before a MTB is justified.

As far as Maidens is concerned, maybe try to loosen up and get relaxed with the bike skittering about under you?

Get a hardtail and start learning skills, riding doesn't have to be about how far and how fast. Ground based skills such as trackstand, manual, wheelie, endo, rocking, you can practice anywhere (ie trackstand in your garage in the Winter). And air based skills such as bunny hop, drops, jumping. Bunny hops you can practice anywhere, but if there's no drops/jumps on your trails you might need to either build them, keep a wide eye out for potential spots, or take to the streets.

The big enduro bikes are known as skills compensators. They enable you to ride harder things quicker…

The problem being once you run out of skill it will hurt a lot more. Which is why currently I use a hardtail bike since it keeps me within sensible limits. With a nice full sus I would be far more likely to pile into a corner and then outmatching myself pile into a tree. I have a whyte 905 and a genesis croix de fer (with roadish tyres) and will ride tracks on both. On easier stuff the cdf wins but once it gets more fun it switches and if I had a full sus it would switch again but since the limiting factor on the local trails is the corners and my skill lobbing a full sus in is likely to hurt.

When I head to somewhere a bit more rocky/bouncy  I do think maybe a full sus makes sense since it will allow me to play more between corners and means I dont end up so knackered and calling it a day early.

Thanks for replies folks, a few different opinions it seems.

Got the gravel bike because I was just getting back into riding and wasn't sure what I wanted to do. Wanted a "go anywhere" bike. I'm a sucker for marketing. I do a lot of 30+ mile road rides, which I like, but have been enjoying taking the bike off road more recently.

I think my solution just now is to explore more on the gravel bike and see if it fits my needs. If there's only a few local tracks that really can't be done it may not be worth buying something new.

Another reason I went gravel is because I like to explore. I'm very much a "I wonder where that track goes" kind of person, which has got me into a few situations where I've turned off road only to be forced to run back again. My thoughts today were a something like a 29er would give me more freedom to take risks, though I had planned to do maidens.

Also very aware of N+1, but because of current finances I'd have to sell something (like my current bike) to be able to afford another bike.

If anyone local fancies taking a slightly unfit newbie with a gravel bike to explore local tracks feel free to pm me.

If there’s only a few local tracks that really can’t be done it may not be worth buying something new.

It will depend where you live. In the deepest, darkest Hertfordshire there will be little, if anything, you wont be able to ride on a gravel bike. You might be a tad slower but thats it.

If it is somewhere with more interesting terrain its more likely you will hit your bikes limits.

Personally with +30 mile road rides vs offroad I would be looking at a bike for each job but it certainly isnt necessary. Aside from anything else the tyres to make road work comfortable doesnt really match offroad stuff. However depends on your willingness to compromise the two.

When you head offtrack ocassionally, at that point you want a monstercross

Since they mended the trail, only the top of maidens merits an mtb imo. I do the reservoir route quite a bit and other than 150 yards at the top of maidens and the rooty bit to the left of the steep hill before the carpark I'd say a gravel bike is more suited to 90 % of the route.

I'm faster on my fs xc bike down maidens for sure, and even faster on the trail bike.. But then I'm faced with a long stretch of tarmac and gravel track which is far more suited to gravel bike.

Given the nature of the trails round there any bike will be a bit of a compromise. As above, the limiting factor on a gravel bike round there is more the drop bars than suspension or big grippy tyres.

In what way are the drop bars a limiting factor?

Well for me I feel far more in control going down hill with flat bars. You may disagree

I'm now at the point where if the old "if you could only have one bike" question were raised I'd be more than likely to say Gravel bike, it's the one I ride the most and would cover 90% of the riding I do these days...

A few years ago I would almost certainly have said MTB as my default bike of choice but TBH I don't have the time or inclination to ride MTBs anything like as much these days or travel to places to do it.

Those 40mm tyres and relatively narrow drop bars make local trails, that would seem quite mundane on my current MTB, much more of a challenge and it somehow reminds me of riding MTBs in the early 90s when the tyres were probably about the same volume, bouncy forks were an extravagance beyond my means and bars were pretty narrow, the main difference now is much better braking...

It's an odd "back to basics" sort of thing, sticking together a bunch of quite well established and robust bicycle technologies in a machine intended to be a jack of all trades rather than a specialist "weapon".

In answer to the OP's question; if it's an MTB in addition to the gravel bike (N+1) I say crack on, if it's an MTB to replace the gravel bike, think carefully...

In what way are the drop bars a limiting factor?

I switch between drops, bullhorns and risers on my fixed gear.  The drops and bullhorns are fastest but they are not as much fun and do not feel as good when riding twisty singletrack, bunny hopping, wheelying (i.e the more fun stuff).  And as they are only marginally slower at full speed I now keep the risers on.

Maybe some people would actually be better off with a gravel bike with risers but that would be getting even closer to going back to a 90's MTB.

If I could only have one bike it might be a rigid 29er. Mine handles like an MTB cos it is one, and I can do any of my rocky tech trails on it. The 2.35 tyres are enough to do any descending on it slower that with suspension bridge fast enough to be fun.

However because I have narrow curvy flat bars it's also great on road and I can happily ride it all day. It's really not slow at all. The fact it's rigid is also strangely important. It makes it really stable satisfying place to sit or stand and pedal.

I think if you are coming from a gravel bike a bounty FS will feel weird as hell and not pleasant.

There’s a local off-road sportive, The Tour of the Cornfields. It’s 100km of fairly tame bridleways. Last year I did it on my cross bike (a gravel bike with less marketing). About 75km in I would have gladly swapped it for a nice comfy 29er, like the one I had left at home that day.

A cross bike is for 90 mins of near heart-attack levels of effort. A gravel bike is for long days in the saddle on the very terrain you referenced. If your bike is a proper crosser it'll have 33c max tyres and the wrong geometry. 100km on tame bridleways is *easily* within the remit of a proper gravel/adventure bike.

Other opinions will vary but for me the best compromise bike is a 29er Hardtail. It’s what I always had until recently as I could only afford the one bike. I now mainly ride off road when time allows so have a Cotic Flare.

Well for me I feel far more in control going down hill with flat bars. You may disagree

John Tomac tried racing MTB with drop bars. I believe he considered it to be a mistake. He's superhumanly talented, I think normal people are much better off with flat or riser bars for descents, just like every DH racer uses.

another Pentlands die-hard here. - or was.

TBH riding the Pentlands in the 80s was probably what a modern day gravel bike feels like now. Have been back with newer MTB and it was pretty good, nothing to trouble general rider type.

Not sure I'd be all over the upper Pentlands in a gravel bike though, despite what @scotroutes might aver -- like a bit more upright position, some ability to flex arms, and maybe a bit of tyre width. Certainly when it all goes a bit rocky.

.. horses for courses, CX bike has advantage of stitching together routes via Tarmac, MTB for up in the hills all day.

If it is somewhere with more interesting terrain its more likely you will hit your bikes limits.

I agree but that’s where having more than one bike is useful, and then taking the most suitable on that particular ride.

Around here we have miles of trails which are suitable for trail full-sus. We also have miles of trails which aren’t. If I had to choose only one bike it would be a 130mm hardtail, but I don’t need to choose. 😁

Tomac fitted drops to his MTB because he was also trying his hand at road racing at the time and thought that by using a similar control layout on all his bikes it would help with getting used to them...

Obviously wider flats/risers give more control offroad, but it's hardly as if you can't ride offroad with drops and ultimately it comes down to balancing compromises.

If most of your riding is offroad and you favour gnarr over mileage then an MTB with wider bars, chunkier tyres and probably some suspension will be the obvious choice.

If you want to cover more distance, a significant amount of it on roads or "tamer" trails/bridalways and maybe just dabble with some Singletrack then (IMO) some form of drop barred "gravel bike" makes better sense...

Of course no bike has to follow the current conventions, you can fit whatever parts you feel suit your needs best...

The problem being once you run out of skill

Not a problem, more of an opportunity. Forget skills, for me it's all about learning, I'm without doubt a better rider than I was last year, as I generally always try and work on what I'm not good at, and ride with folks that are.

I don't ride as many miles as I used to, I prefer to try and concentrate  my time in to riding fun stuff, and building the type of trails I enjoy. Constantly learning and improving on the bike, I prefer to get my fitness in running these days, it's more efficient for me.

It's only then a problem if you choose to stop learning, which is a bit daft.

Of course no bike has to follow the current conventions, you can fit whatever parts you feel suit your needs best…

Exactly my approach.  I put together the bike that makes the best compromise ignoring everything anyone else is doing.  Saying that, ideally I would get a custom frameset as I would like to tweak a few things to make it perfect.

Another ex-Pentlands rider here - that place is all about getting out into the hills and getting some miles under the belt, there's very little technical stuff across the whole area - I'd say it's made for the gravel bike with the exception of the climbs - some real beasts out there and a gravel / cx bike doesn't climb as well as a MTB on stuff that is properly hard to get up.

However, you absolutely should get a MTB as you're 20 miles away from the Tweed. One of the few places I know of in the UK where the enduro bike would be my first choice ride - the trails are boss. Have you not got out there yet?

Enduro bikes are skill compensators? not sure I agree with that. I'm more skilful on a nice lightweight rigid bike...I can bunny hop  higher and just ride it better. My enduro bike is big, heavy, soggy with the long travel suspension and requires alot more effort to do anything. What it does do well is enable me to ride over bigger stuff very fast...which is the kind of riding I like to do and actually doesn't require any or much in the way of skills - more about balls and bravery (or stupidity, there is a very fine line), hence why I have a big enduro bike.

If I liked more cross country riding navigating more technical trails requiring more delicate skills then I'd be on a lighter, more nimble bike, maybe a hardtail, certainly with alot less suspension travel.

For me a gravel bike is not about 'off road' in the mountain bike sense of the phrase but more about unprepared tracks like cinder tracks, farm tracks, bridle ways etc. Anything more than that and I'd be looking towards the mountain bike.

It's about getting the right or best tool for the job, nothing to do with skill compensation. You can't compensate for skills, or lack of. The rider is always the limiting factor.

[url= https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1965/30037304937_d151eff7dd_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1965/30037304937_d151eff7dd_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/MLi3gT ]Salsa Cutthroat[/url]

Possibly a step to far for some, but it covers ground very quickly, both road and off the beaten path. Gravel bike geometry with mtn bike clearances, Salsa certainly know how to make a bike.

@wobliscott

Your comment reads to me like the perfect description of an Enduro bike  being a skills compensator!