[Closed] Are we facing a subtle tide, or do I need coffee ...

Move to Scotland 🙂

I really havnt given it any thought! But then I never have been one to follow the rules.

Or is it all just paranoia? brought on by too many forum threads

You actually take notice of forum threads?

Back in the real world, I've never experienced any of what you're stressing about

Back in the real world, I've never experienced any of what you're stressing about

Me neither. Publishing cheeky rides on Strava is probably not the best idea though.

Have a coffe I reckon.

Organised events seem to have had a really tough year, mainly due to the weather.

On the access front, I'm not noticing any big clampdown on MTBs. There are positive developments in Wales. Perhaps people in the muddier areas of the country are just choosing hard surfaced purpose-built trails over this sort of thing?

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Who is fighting for our access?

British cycling has it's own focus, so IMBA UK looks to be our main representative body - but how many of us are members? It seems a toothless tabby where we will need a lion...

IMBA in the UK is a small organisation made up of volunteers. If it grew to the point where it had as many members as BC or the CTC they could afford to pay staff to go along to all the boring meetings held during the middle of the working day where decisions are taken to sanitise bridleways or shut down cheeky trails. CTC do some good work in this respect and when our local DH spot was shut down their off-road rep was straight over to argue our case.

It's a vicious circle, with mountain bikers increasingly thinking IMBA is ineffectual and therefore not joining, which in turn decreases their influence.

My feeling is that if someone stepped up and started lobbying for Scottish-style open access they'd get significant support, but until then most MTBers don't really care enough about having a legal right to ride somewhere. In any case there are areas of the country where being able to ride footpaths would really add to the sport, and there are areas where it would open up a network of crap muddy tracks riddled with stiles that almost no-one rides anyway.

MTB riders are their own worst enemy, many don't care about access issues and are happy to ride whe're they want. This doesn't help move the debate forward and often alienates landowners and other countryside users. That said I don't think this behaviour is having too much of an overall effect. I think trail centres are a great idea though, one it's increasing the number of people riding so more of the population consider themselves riders and secondly it shows big public bodies such as the FC and councils take leisure cycling seriously enough to invest in it, again making it a more main stream activity in the eyes of the authorities. I think the likelihood in reduction in our existing access rights is even less likely than increasing them, there's no political will either way.

Trail centres will also continue to evolve, in south Lancashire we have more mini centres you can link together with natural trails (Heatley Nab, Billinge Woods, Hardwood etc.). There's also a new trend with trail centres becoming a start point for natural riding as well as the manmade, we're currently working on something exciting like this from Lee Quarry.

And that's the biggest issue, if more riders were to get involved through CTC or better still local groups (www.pmba.org.uk or SingletrAction for example) more would happen more often. It's often not the big campaigns that make the difference it's the local lobbying, often by council employees from the inside. PMBA tries to support people like this, in Lancashire there's constantly small sections of bridleway upgrade and trail development going on. Some of it is man made trails, some development of natural trails, sympathetic bridleway repairs etc. Well end up with a landscape of inter connected riding of all sorts eventually. When the big push for Scottish style access finally comes there'll also be a network of experienced and connected groups out there to put some wait behind it. The horse riders have been successfully doing this for years with real results, the 47 mile MTL for example which we also benefit from. Wouldn't hurt us to join forces, we broadly want the same things.

Chipps and the magazine have been banging on for a while now about improving access rights and riders getting involved locally and helping to develop our sport, we just need mode people to get involved and drop the I'll ride where I want and stuff everyone else attitude.

Move to Scotland

Spot-on Stumpyjon.

Here's a noddy guide to RoW law that I wrote a while back, along with my thoughts on how access is affected by the extent to which we engage with landowners and local authorities.

http://bristoltrails.tumblr.com/post/36421406307/your-right-to-ride

Well put SJ - spot-on. We are our own worst enemy.

We are our own worst enemy.

Yeah I was wondering about that a while ago, seeing irresponsible / blatant trail features built on footpaths, the amount of Strava cheeky trail outing atthe same time as hugely increae traffic on those trails and an increase in negativity locally going with increased trail use.

But it's simpler than that perhaps. Some people are idiots, on or off bikes and some local conflict is inevitable, whether reasonable or just typical British nimby-ism and small-mindedness. Meanwhile for others, riding off-road is no different to 20 years ago, hardly see anyone and when you do everyone's friendly. Much depends on the area you ride in - and I expect both extremes are experienced by different riders in the same area.

Meanwhile for others, riding off-road is no different to 20 years ago, hardly see anyone and when you do everyone's friendly.

I fall very much into this category..

For me it's just about trying to behave responsibly, minimal use of cheeky trails, not riding sensitive areas when the conditions are bad..
I think that I'm quite lucky in that we have some very good bridleway riding round here, and very low MTB traffic, so conflict is fairly uncommon..
In fact it's fairly uncommon to encounter [i]anybody[/i] out this way as long as as you keep away from the carparks..

And as much as I'm not a huge fan of the trail centre vibe, I'm finding it very useful for a late night cycling fix..
The surface is impervious to the torrential rain, and for night time fitness rides on a tight schedule it's hard to beat that safe, predictably flowing line of well surfaced, easy to follow trail..

And that's the biggest issue, if more riders were to get involved through CTC or better still local groups (www.pmba.org.uk or SingletrAction for example) more would happen more often

Jon, good post - when I started an 'own worst enemy' thread a while back this came up. I wanted to do something locally myself, emailed IMBA uk and invited anyone to pm/email me if they wanted the results fwding on etc. No response from IMBA to 2 emails, none from here either. Didn't really expect many from here, but thought I'd get a mail from IMBA. Maybe they're not the people to discuss with, may be that's the issue - there's no common or central info / strategy hub and it's all done at a disjointed local level.

So I've been in contact with a local FC access manager for the one area that has had some issues in the last year or 2, dunno if it'll be of any use yet though. They seem to be open to discussion at least.

Yunki, the issue for you is that if bikes are banned from honeypot sites they'll all be on your trails )

I very much doubt bike bans will happen but it's something we all need to think about a little more; if for some reason MTB sees a boom as road riding did 4-5 years ago we'll all see much more trail traffic and related issues.

Agree with yunki for peak area, in fact the worst groups i bump into are horse riders, mtb'ers then walkers
I'd have to see a big push clamping down on illegal 4x4/ motorbike riding before taking notice of anything locally (pines area) as this is forcing do gooders, dog walkers and idiots to dig holes and put logs on trails and bridleways

Have there been lots of trail closures and mountain bike bans?

Have there been lots of trail closures and mountain bike bans?

So that'd be probably not then.

Here's a different angle on it: at the moment, the outdoors industry is working on a national campaign called Britain On Foot. It's a lobbying-based initiative which aims to convince the government that walking as an activity is a massive positive in terms of national health, would reduce the burden on the NHS and should be a systemic part of the whole health service behemoth. It also aims to emphasise the importance of walking and associated businesses to the national economy as a whole. Not just outoor kit brands, but caffs, accommodation, training organisations, National Parks, walking-based tourism etc.

I wonder if the cycling industry is missing a trick here by not doing the same for cycling - I know Sustrans etc are doing this, but as an industry, no-one, as far as I can see, is taking a lead.

What's this got to do with access paranoia? Well, if cycling is viewed at a national level as something that has health and associated economic benefits along with sustainable transport pluses as well, we're more likely to be viewed positively if the whole domesday scenaro outlines by Mt Caffeine-De'Fishent of Slough above ever does come to pass.

In reality thought, STW seems to be afflicted by a curious creeping access paranoia where a stick across a trail or a grumpy walker is interpreted as being proof of an international conspiracy to eliminate mountain biking. Ditto the strange idea that somehow if 4x4s are restricted from a small number of tracks in popular areas where they cause disproportionate levels of trail erosion, that somehow mountain bikes will be next.

Just as the illegality of heroin and other class A drugs has made both alcohol and tobacco illegal and the introduction of 20mph urban speed limits in selected areas has led to the introduction of blanket 50mph zones on the nation's motorways.

My vote if for coffee, though get it down quickly, my local caff recently closed down and I take this as being a sign that before long coffee will be unobtainable in the UK as coffee outlets everywhere follow suit... 😉

The studland area of dorset has seen a steady increase in mountain biking, and the folk at the parish council want it banned.

Some elderly villagers have even thrown tacks on to the trail... I'm tubeless but my dog isn't. This behaviour is bang out of order and could escalate what should be nothing more than selfish greedy old gits moaning, to more serious incidents.

They have pressured the police, who told them there is nothing to be done, because no one is doing anything wrong.

The national trust have asked people who visit their cafe what they think, hardly a statistically clean and fair way of judging public opinion, lets ask 1000 ramblers what think of cycling and see if they say what we hope they will say... Mmm.

The local horse riding school uses the footpaths. If businesses in the village don't follow the rules for profit, start looking at your own villagers first.

YES THERE IS A TIDE.... And the cycling side has done nothing, where the moaners are campaigning with meetings, letters and sabotage.

But a chat with the rights of way council chap reveals their is nothing they can practically do if you are on a footpath, and absolutely nothing they can do if you are on a bridle path.

Its on my radar, a situation i am remotely monitoring. When / if they start looking at bans and changing rights of way to footpaths, that is when we should join in (and I expect the horse riding community will join in) right now it's all huffing and puffing from selfish people who live in a lovely place and don't want to share it.

I think the situation on the internet seems different to the real world

I ride at Woburn. I rode yesterday. I'm just getting out again after as my frozen shoulder starts to loosen off

Its a very popular spot with dog walkers (that includes me), cyclists, runners and horse riders. I've never had a problem. Yes some cheaky trails get shut but to be hnest thats fair enough. Families and dog owners seem to apolgetic if they get in my way, which frankly they is way beyond the call of duty where i have no right to ride. I was with my dog yesterday which definaitly breaks down barriers. I've had a post ride pint in the pub and the locals seem happy with bikes in the wood

However i think there is more tension in National Parks, although again I've never seen it for myself. I do think that ridding footpaths in National Parks, particulalry at busy times is a bad idea. Even worse is then coming on here to publicise your actions and sugest others do the same.

Oh and the ultimate no no in my book. Ride a foot path in the lakes. Then come on here and claim that you and your mates out for a ride equates to some sort of mass trespass, striking a blow for MTB freedom

I've never had a problem riding anywhere. At a sensible speed in a sensible way. I've seen more problems caused by people hooning about as if they were at a trail centre without due regard for other users not on bikes.

If people want to hoon around, go to a dedicated trail centre. If people can just ride bikes while putting themself in context, then they are fine and can be allowed out in public.

Don't take the piss, see yourself as others see you and there will be far less problems.

I think it is certainly the FC's perception on MTB'ing. Check out the Afan MTB Ranger's facebook page as to the justification for doing away with Skyline and the current view that such things as the 'skills' area is where the future is. I would also think that to most MTB'ing is just that trail centres. Jo Burt had a nice piece in Privateer a while back - people no longer going into the countryside to be shaped by thier surrounding but rather now shaping the countryside to satisfy their imediate wants - hence trail centres. Skyline is a case in point, great day out with some great scenery amongst the singletrack albeit at a trail centre but most people can only moan about the forest road. Don't these people ever look up to see whats around them!!

MTB riders are their own worst enemy, many don't care about access issues and are happy to ride whe're they want.

I'm not sure this is really much of an issue. As long as everyone is courteous towards each other, then outside of some [i]I'm right, and you're wrong[/i] conflicts, everyone should get along fine as human beings.

However, I see a lot of discourteous MTBers. I'm sure a lot of them don't mean to be, but especially in groups they become like accidental Hells Angels, blasting past walkers (and other riders) at speed, leaving litter and making noise....then when they have to slow down for someone they login to a forum and complain about it!

So in that sense, perhaps trail centres aren't a bad idea. It just means if you want to enjoy the real countryside, you can do it in relative peace.

At the end of the day, we are responsible for the feelings we generate in the people we meet. If those feelings are consistently negative, then it'll do us no favours. Positive encounters are the way forward....and why not, it makes a better atmosphere for everyone, including ourselves.

As for jumps and trail features built on cheeky runs, I'm gonna contradict myself a little bit here and say they're not always a bad thing. Most are built by young'ns. Kids who don't yet have access to an Audi and a trail centre within an hours drive. And with their youthful energy they're bursting to ride as soon as they get in from school/work...and so under their own steam, with a bit of creative forethought, they build it, usually a little out of the way of trouble, on their own doorstop.

It's generally a positive thing. Doesn't please, everyone, no. But nothing ever does. And it beats the same kids waiting at the bus stop loaded full of White Lightening, ready to knife someone. Let them get creative with their talents, I say. If they're doing it somewhere blatantly stupid, just guide them to somewhere more appropriate. You'll often find them polite, as they're coming to understand the politics of what they're doing, and more to the point, the hard work they've put into it.

We have 'rights of way' in England and Wales and it would be very hard for any ramblers or other protesters to take these away. The voluntary ban on Snowdon is just that and would take years in the courts if they tried to make it official, benefiting bloodsucking lawyers and solicitors only. I imagine most people accept the status quo. Cycling isn't going to go away in this country, but its main problem may be that most cyclists would rather be doing than talking, hence letting those who prefer to talk make all the decisions. I don't think we need to worry though unless they take away our right to vote. Beware the wrath of a patient man (woman/cyclist) would be my sentiment.

BWD plus one - post of the year!

To me its all quite simple - act like a cock when you're out on a bike and you're spoiling it for all of us! perhaps we could issue some little yellow cards to carry in our camelbaks to issue to other riders when we see them acting the dick?

Regards the prospect of an organisation - we tried, we've really tried, but nobody was interested - the idea of MTB'ers clubbing together is a complete anathema to the 'anti-culture' that we've created for ourselves, and in many ways has probably drawn a great many of us to the sport in the first place. There is a demand for 'someone to go to' when problems occur, but the vast majority of these were of the riders own making, for example using an scheduled ancient monument as a set of jumps, and then outrage and victimhood when they got threatened with prosecution - followed by a load of work to find them an alternative spot, and nobody from the original protagonists putting in the effort to follow through on it... The other problem is that a national organisation can't 'solve it all for you' - but they can be there to offer advice and support for local groups to deal with local problems - the problem is that in my experience the majority of riders who complain that we as a group need representation go very quiet when it comes to stepping up to the plate.

What nipper said...

I dont want to ride a trail designed by some golf refugees and very rarely have any problems with other people just being out an about in the unorganised world.

Common sense and courtesy probably helps.

I've not seen any of what you're talking about personally so hard to know. FRom my experi ence of kitesurfing mmobilizing to protect it's places to play, I can say that organising into groups initially seems to help but then later gives the anti brigade a stick to beat you with. We went from "we will form a community to help protect our access" to "your community isn't doing what it said, you're banned from all but here and everyone is because you speak for them", forgetting that the bulk of beach users were not part of the club, were transient and had no interest in the club. It eventually just became the equiv of an expensive trail centre legally requiring insurance and registration to use it. Not for me, mainly for the restriction and small group paranoia itpoduced .

I think that a good point has been made.

Ride in the big outdoors looking at the view, fitting in with other outdoor groups works well. Trating a Bridleway as a place to push the envelope isn't going to lead to harmony.

There is no reason why you shouldn't providing you take care when others are, or could be, around. Its simple observation and care. Going fast doesn't mean being careless.

Trail centres are a bit poo and that is all I have to say on the matter 😉

So that'd be probably not then.

No, I didn't think so either, however it's put. But tolerance of non-bridleway/etc or non-official routes, even those that aren't dug, dangerous or otherwise irresponsible, is wearing thin in many places. I think the idea of a grumpy local = national bans paranoia may be stretching the feelings to the extreme example, but more riders realising that we need to be mindful of the representation of what we do is a good thing. You won't avoid upsetting the odd grump but rule #1 always applies.