As some of you know, I haven't been riding anything for quite some time, let alone MTBs, so I have no idea what's going on in the market. I came across this thread, though, and was surprised at how the word 'motor' just seemed to be an assumed part of the vocabulary.
I get that electric bikes exist; I just didn't realise that recreational MTBing had become eMTBing. Or am I wrong? Do the majority of today's MTB sales run toward the electric end? Or are sales of conventional bikes still the default, and I am just seeing a lot of press coverage about eMTBs?
Apologies in advance if this is controversial. I honestly have no idea where things are at with respect to mountain bikes today.
I think your being sucked into the marketing*
* Folk with an agenda to maximise the top line of the company by pushing the emperor's New clothes allways
Probably the higher end going electric as the older buyers with a bit more wonga to spare make the switch.
Higher end?
Most eMTBs i've seen are anything but higher end.
Expensive, yes definitely.
And no, it's still a smallish part of the overall market, but a rapidly growing one. So lot of focus in mags, websites, shops.
ebikes give many people the opportunity to cycle now, mostly in a recreational manner.
There is no longer an entry fee of fitness or getting fit.
fat/overweight/unfit old/middle-aged/young bloke, wants to go ride bikes... drops a 5k on the latest Haibike or similar and off they go ripping up the trails.
On a side note, last weekend i was riding at Redlands in the Surrey hills with 2 mates. We commented on the lack of ebikes, then a group of 5 came past. A few minutes later, another group of 4 or so.
group 1 were all late 20's - early 30's blokes. Second group were late 50's - early 60's blokes.
Later in the day, slightly older couple, she was on a hartail (non e-bkike, aka a bike), he was on an ebike.
And the bike manufactures know they can now sell bikes to folks that no longer fear a lack of fitness, so they push them hard.
Almost everyone I ride with owns ebikes and manual bikes and seem to ride both equal amounts.
Almost everyone I ride with no longer use uplift busses despite there being a service that runs locally.
Age ranges from mid 30's to mid 50's.
All been riding for years.
this thread, though, and was surprised at how the word ‘motor’ just seemed to be an assumed part of the vocabulary
the article you link to is on the Singletrackworld "Charged" channel. So no, they're not the default.
Not here yet anyway. And I (though I own a E) am jolly glad about that.
MBR readers may feel differently.
No. The number electric bikes sold is still a small fraction of the total. What you are likely missing is that most buyers aren't on STW or similar websites / social media channels.
FWIW, I haven't seen up-to-date figures but 18 months ago the average cost of a new bike in the UK was £365.
ebikes give many people the opportunity to cycle now, mostly in a recreational manner.
We were gravel riding in Portugal last week (1000s miles of tracks all over the place). Only other cyclists we saw were a group on ebikes (MTBs) off road - they looked in their 50s. Was bloody hard work on our non ebikes riding up hills in the blazing sun and 30C! Was a bit envious as we had to abort one ride when we ran out of water. Would have been fine on an ebike - our water would have lasted a lot longer....
I just didn’t realise that recreational MTBing had become eMTBing. Or am I wrong?
On my last trip to The Peak, the majority of other bikes on the day I saw were e-bikes. In fact, a walker I chatted to remarked that mine was the first non e-bike he'd seen all day as well. TBH I'd thought that it was the location y'know? Popular with folks, easy to get to and so on. But maybe not?
Honestly who cares really? If folks are getting out enjoying themselves, I'm certainly not going to judge what bikes they choose to ride.
Almost everyone I ride with owns ebikes and manual bikes and seem to ride both equal amounts.
Whereas in contrast, I don't know a single person wth an E-bike. A mate used to have one for commuting but got rid of it about 3 years ago.
They (the marketing bods) obviously want people to think the e-bikes are the best cos they cost a fricken shit load more than normal bikes!
I'm happy to sit on the judgey side of the fence.
The fitness barrier was a good thing IMO. Having had both myself and my g/f (twice) knocked off by inexperienced ebikers in places that they've no business being because they've not had the long hard slog of building up the skills and fitness that gets them there.
I've also noticed a lot more trail aggro from walkers in busy places near me (north wales) because it's happening to them more too.
But YMMV. I'll stick to my non-motorbike, sweat and suffering. Keeps me fit and makes me feel all righteous and lordy 🙂
and was surprised at how the word ‘motor’ just seemed to be an assumed part of the vocabulary.
Can you home in a bit on the key text that you're referring to please? As I'm not seeing it at all.
they’ve no business being because they’ve not had the long hard slog of building up the skills and fitness that gets them there.
Elitist shite
Elitist shite
In some ways, yes. However there is definitely a concern about folk using electric assist to get them into mountain environments in which they have little or no experience. I'm thinking of things like the Cairngorm plateau but I'm sure there are others. That's not to say that inexperienced but fit folk weren't already finding themselves in that position, however the fitness required previously acted as a natural filter on the numbers. Maybe it'll end up not being an issue, I'm just highlighting some local concerns.
I had a weeks holiday in Yorkshire recently - the vast majority of MTBs I saw were electric which did surprise me! Every bike shop had big e-bike displays in the front window, there was even an e-MTB festival coming up somewhere that I saw advertised!
Locally to me, I know loads of people getting into the sport or even just starting to cycle to work who are buying e-MTBs, who'd been put off previously due to lack of fitness.
Obviously everyone on here has legs of steel and wouldn't be seen dead on one, but amongst normal people I think they're quite popular and getting even more so!
It does also mean that some remote, wild trails in fragile environments that used to take a fair amount of effort to access end up getting ragged to pieces as ebikers rip multiple laps with ease.
I think they're great enabling technologies for those that really need them but loads of people just don't.
I feel bad enough now that I have to charge my gears before I ride my bike (a couple time per year). Its just ridiculous in this day and age that loads of people are charging large bike batteries every time they ride their bike.
Edinburgh Bike cooperative near me still have a sign in the door that says "The revolution won't be motorised" LOL!
I'm with Scotroutes on this.
My concern is that it allows lots of newbies to go very fast in places they wouldn't have been going before and that's gets moutainbikers banned from places because in the public eye we are all the same.
MX dirt bikes are not popular with the public, ebikes likely the same when the hooligans get hold of them, but they look the same as us in a way that MX bikes don't.
And no, I have no evidence of this happening yet.
Last week I cycled round my local woods on the edge of town and I saw 7 or 8 people (young adults) on e MX style bikes shreading round the trails. Nae good and like you say, to the average person hard to differentiate from a burly enduro ebike
Anyway, back to the OP.
I think the press and the trail centres being full of ebikes is a bit like looking at car magazines and track days and thinking that everyone is driving around in Ferraris and Porsches, when in reality most people have a bog standard Focus for getting to work in, most people buying bikes are after something cheap to get about on, we are probably not typical bike purchasers on here
Last week I cycled round my local woods on the edge of town and I saw 7 or 8 people (young adults) on e MX style bikes shreading round the trails. Nae good.
That’s a different issue
eBike specific Enduro races have now popped up in the south as well as the combined e and non e races. A lot of the riders in the races seem to come from a motorcross background which I found interesting, kinda makes sense I guess. Anyway they seem to have fun, and I would have one if the funds would allow for a decent spec...........but they don't
That’s a different issue
To you and i it is. To the general public, it isn't.
No matter how much legislation there is (or isn't) they're still e-MTBs to the general public. And calling them idiots because they can't tell the difference won't help.
In some ways, yes. However there is definitely a concern about folk using electric assist to get them into mountain environments in which they have little or no experience. I’m thinking of things like the Cairngorm plateau but I’m sure there are others.
FWIW, we ran into a group (e-group?) 2 or 3 years ago at the head of a fjord in Norway. Flat batteries all round and already 2 or 3 thousand metres of climbing completed.
They'd misjudged the distance (and climb) from the coast to the bridge at the head of the fjord and back down the other side to the ferry. They thought it was about 35km and 1000-1200m climbing.
More like 60km and 4000m total climb.
They were looking for the fastest and flattest route back to the coast, and as anyone who lives round there will tell you, there aren't any flat routes, just hilly, really hilly and mountainous.
They ended up dropping into another town and getting taxis. We'd carefully planned our 35 km analogue route with a couple of bail out options and a water/cafe stop.
But, to be quite honest, they could have got into equally as much trouble on MTBs. Or road bikes. I've seen it done.
Not the majority, but I am seeing more. I knocked out 47km/917m climbing before a late breakfast this morning, on an old Lava Dome built out of a couple hundred quid of second hand bits. Went spanking downhill past one fat guy a fair bit younger than me (55); the usual bolt upright John Wayne stance on thousands of pounds worth of e-bike. This is definitely happening more than it did. Is it really 'Moar Fun' going downhill slowly on a very expensive bike because you lack the basic fitness that comes from climbing without a motor doing the work? Seems a shame people (feel they) need to spend that amount of money to ride a bike. I'd feel a bit embarrassed, to be honest.
Sounds like the sort of person who wouldn't be out riding if they didn't have an ebike. I know folk like that. I think it's better for them and for everyone else if they are ebiking rather than sitting watching TV or just driving around in their cars.
Seems a shame people (feel they) need to spend that amount of money to ride a bike. I’d feel a bit embarrassed, to be honest.
Give it a go. It’s brilliant. More so when you know you are pissing off the gatekeepers of the hobby.
People who want e-Bikes will buy them when they can afford them. But not everyone wants one. And some people want both.
Edinburgh Bike cooperative near me still have a sign in the door that says “The revolution won’t be motorised”
And yet they're doing a roaring trade in Ebikes.
If fuel prices stay high there will be a big jump in sales (MTB and Road/cargo).
I see a lot more delivery kids riding eBikes.
I think it’s better for them and for everyone else if they are ebiking rather than sitting watching TV or just driving around in their cars.
Until you realise that they are increasing trail Erosion, conflict etc etc. Then suddenly it's not better für everyone else.
And before someone pitchforks me for being elitist and telling others they can't do x,y,z, I'm not telling them they can't. I'm just stating that it's not " better for everyone else"
I think they should still do it, but let's not pretend it's better fir everyone else.
I have no interest in owning one for leisure use, for the same reason I have no interest in wearing a pair of Wallace and Gromit style mechanical trousers to boost my walking ability. It's a philosophical standpoint, not a financial one. In my mid 50s, I'm fit and healthy precisely because I've been riding bikes up hills for 30+ years without a motor doing the heavy lifting. My sister doesn't drive, and uses one instead of a car. Big fan of that, could see me getting a utility e-bike instead of a car.
because they’ve not had the long hard slog of building up the skills and fitness that gets them there.
I've long thought that the barrier to mountain biking as a way of enjoying "Getting into the countryside" is fitness rather than financial, and TBH, if E-bikes takes away that worry for folks so the likes of spouses and families to all go out together, so that they can access everywhere pretty much instantly with a bit of investment, then more power to them.
E-Bikes are going to mean that more and more folks will take up the sport and so more and more places will look at E- mountain-bikes as legitimate, and they'll get catered to by tourist boards and B&B and whatever. And everywhere you can go on a E-bike, you can go on a regular bike. If this paves the way for places to accept that two wheels is as acceptable as say rambling, then I'm happy every time I see some newbie wobbling about on one around Ladybower.
It's better for everyone else as their being active will lead to less pressure on the healthcare system and not driving will help with climate change, reduce pollution and, err, lead to less pressure on the healthcare system.
Personally, I think the trade-off in "increased erosion" is worth it.
I knocked out 47km/917m climbing before a late breakfast this morning, on an old Lava Dome built out of a couple hundred quid of second hand bits. Went spanking downhill past one fat guy a fair bit younger than me (55); the usual bolt upright John Wayne stance on thousands of pounds worth of e-bike.
What was swinging the most your dick or half the contents of Go Outdoors you seem to strap to your bike?
For once I agree with TJ.
Elitist shite.
i do wonder if in other walks of life there is this dislike/animosity/hatred/misunderstanding between two things that are similar, perform the same function but are somewhat different?
Acoustic guitars and electric guitars, toothbrushes and electric toothbrushes, garage doors and electric roller doors etc all living in harmony... or are there forums out there having the same battles/arguments/discussions?
Fat lazy blokes trying to justify their preference of an electric toothbrush over that of a manual one?! 😛
@v7fmp - if you think this is bad, don't look into the rock-climbing world.
and so more and more places will look at E- mountain-bikes as legitimate, and they’ll get catered to by tourist boards and B&B and whatever. And everywhere you can go on a E-bike, you can go on a regular bike. If this paves the way for places to accept that two wheels is as acceptable as say rambling,
That's one potential outcome.... I hope you're right, but tbh I think the opposite will hapoen
I have no interest in owning one for leisure use
Honestly, do yourself a favour and hire one for the day, they're just so much fun. I mean don't get me wrong, one of the reason I love mountain biking is the fitness aspect, but E-bikes are just a hoot. I can totally get why folks buy them.
more and more places will look at E- mountain-bikes as legitimate, and they’ll get catered to by tourist boards and B&B and whatever.
one of the reason I love mountain biking is the fitness aspect, but E-bikes are just a hoot. I can totally get why folks buy them.
This is where I am. I can see the fun in them, they're just nit (currently) for me. And yes, I've ridden many for work purposes.
do they have e-ropes?!
All terrain cherry pickers.
I enjoy my bike.
I am glad ebikes and normal bikes exist -as I am also glad that road/gravel/touring/shopping/cargo/ebike/DH/XC/e-cargo and more bikes exist.
No they are not 'default', not even close.
I hope you’re right, but tbh I think the opposite will hapoen
I met a couple the other week on the TPT headed out to the coast from Manchester, They were just a regular couple in their late 40's early 50's and both had been keen MTBers when they were younger; life had just got in the way ..etc etc...They they were on matchy E-Oranges, a wee backpack with over-night stuff, they'd booked a B&B that had a garage and was ok to charge them up...They were having an ace time.
Those two, and folks like them are going to be the ones that make everyone's lives just a little bit easier
Until you realise that they are increasing trail Erosion, conflict etc etc. Then suddenly it’s not better für everyone else.
Yeah I think that the more bikers are our there the better our facilities will end up being. This has been happening steadily since the early 90s when I started.
The fitness barrier was a good thing IMO. Having had both myself and my g/f (twice) knocked off by inexperienced ebikers in places that they’ve no business being because they’ve not had the long hard slog of building up the skills and fitness that gets them there.
It's not entirely elitist, I too have twice almost been ridden of the path (old logging way out of Aviemore) by e-bikers overshooting corners at speed on the uphills and drifting wide. It was hardly life or death but they just came across as arseholes as they didn't even stop or acknowledge it.
Similarly local to me there's a lovely sinuous wee trail where at every gate crossing you can see where someone has chosen to flatten the little wire fence to the side of the gate and roll their bike through rather than hoik it over the gate. Obviously I don't KNOW it was e-bikers but there is no other apparent reason for it, it's not like it would assist a Strava time or anything given the trail conditions either side of the gate. So the argument of letting people get further into the hills without the strength or fitness to maybe overcome the obstacles they're likely to find is valid (see also the bikepacking pages/forums where there seem to be an increasing number of comments about locked gates on remote paths/trails, I'm all for our current access privileges but how far should landowners be pushed to accommodate people 30km from the nearest road who can't lift their bike over a fence or gate?).
Anyway, back to the OP, I thought they were becoming surprisingly prevalent but not ubiquitous, I guess people could similarly be excused for thinking everyone was riding gravel these days given the number of articles and words typed on the subject.
half the contents of Go Outdoors you seem to strap to your bike?
Not this morning, just a quick blast out of the front door. But I load up overnight kit so I can ride further from the front door than might otherwise be possible. Anyone who thinks the e-MTBs referenced by the OP are reducing car miles is probably mistaken. I think it's more elitist to normalise the idea you can't take up cycling without spending multiple thousands of pounds on a bike, which is what's happening.
I think it's normally @Scotroutes who points out that the average bike bought in the UK costs well south of £500, but don't let that get in the way of your preconceptions.
Robz
Edinburgh Bike cooperative near me still have a sign in the door that says “The revolution won’t be motorised”
dyna-ti
And yet they’re doing a roaring trade in Ebikes.
Yes that was my point hence the "LOL" that followed that statement - more ebikes than actual mountain bikes!
I have no issue with ebikes and will probably end up buying one at some point. But i do get a bit sentimental that the old "its not about the bike, its about the rider" ethos seems to be dying out.
I was talking to a guy on a VERY expensive ebike recently who seemed more concerned with telling us all about how VERY expensive his bike was. With no real comprehension that he was quite poor at actually riding it. I just thought "is this where its all heading? MTBers becoming like competitive car bores where is all about what you have rather than what you can do on it"
That was happening well before folk started buying bikes with motors.
I think it’s more elitist to normalise the idea you can’t take up cycling without spending multiple thousands of pounds on a bike, which is what’s happening.
It's really not though is it.
I take it you also moan and bitch about people with expensive houses/cars/watches/chess sets.
It's elitist to imply you had more right to be where ever you were than the person you saw...
I just thought “is this where its all heading? MTBers becoming like competitive car bores where is all about what you have rather than what you can do on it”
Has it not been so for years? MTB is the new golf for many.
the average bike bought in the UK costs well south of £500, but don’t let that get in the way of your preconceptions.
Skewed by BSOs bought for kids. If you're a real grownup, well, don't be like those kids and poor people, you simply must have this £5K e-MTB. You'll get just as fit as on an old fashioned bike, and be actively helping the planet. Or something (like you give a sh!t). Choose life, etc.
That was happening well before folk started buying bikes with motors.
Yes, true. But the guy on the Santa Cruz would often go a bit quiet when the guy on the Muddy Fox would leave him for dead on the climbs. With ebikes that fitness differential has been diminished so its become a lot more about the bike.
thats one of the great things about Mountain biking, you can have all the gear and little to no idea, but 99% of people wont know this, as its unlikely to see someone on the trail long enough.
I felt rather outgunned on my 125mm travel Norco Optic at the Megavalanche, until i was passing plenty of chaps riding Nukeproof Mega,s & giga's, various Pivot's and Yeti's.
Its all smoke and mirrors.
Ask any MTBer, any real MTBer, its not how you ride your bike, its how you stand by your bike (Quote - Din Viesel, circa 2001)
so its become a lot more about the bike.
Yeah but so what? If people are excited by their bike, then that's cool, and if part of that exclamation is the cost of it well so what? Other people riding other bikes has literally no impact on my enjoyment of me riding my bike. I do though get a kick out of seeing folks enjoying themselves on their bikes. (regardless of whether it's motorised or not)
Sure, but this gets back to the OPs point. If the impression is that you need to spend £5k on an ebike to have fun - because that's normal and what everyone else does - then that could put many folk off. This impression is set up by the manufacturers and boosted by the media.
Just a thought - I'd like to read a piece that listed the top 10 best-selling bikes - by volume - from each of the major MTB brands. Specifically UK sales. Perhaps followed up by a proper review/test on the top.
@stwhannah - any chance?
MTB is the new golf for many.
That cliche has been around for so long that it's got a zimmer frame.
This impression is set up by the manufacturers and boosted by the media.
Yeah I think that's fair comment. I'd imagine that most E-bikes are being bought on credit schemes - a lot like the explosion in Santa Cruz a few years back I guess. I still think that if folks are seeing these bikes and either thinking that it's a way of getting into mountain biking that makes it achievable for them, or that it means they can go out with their spouses, or they've tried one and just had a bunch of fun, then that's all to the good.
I just don't' think it's my place to judge what people spend their cash on, or get snooty about people having "different fun" to me.
Although I think we can all agree that gravel riders should be shunned, am I right?
What about eGravel?
Yeah but so what
the OPs point. If the impression is that you need to spend £5k on an ebike to have fun – because that’s normal and what everyone else does – then that could put many folk off
That's what.
I think you were so busy taking umbrage at any criticism of eebs that you'd gone off on one.
The point being made is that having wealth as the barrier to MTB participation is no better than having fitness as the barrier.
What about eGravel?
🤣🤣
What about eGravel?
🙂
Or when,far from home, the battery runs out -->> eGrovel
The point being made is that having wealth as the barrier to MTB participation is no better than having fitness as the barrier.
I'll bet there's more folk with the cash for monthly payments than there are folks with the fitness needed for 20 miles and a couple thousand feet of climbing under their own steam. And if that's cash that's not going into drinking or kebabs or fags or unused gym membership then all's the better.
Oof, you'd be a brave man to go out to your average Brit just now and say "I reckon you're too unfit to cycle 20 miles, but I'm sure you have a few thousand quid to drop on an e bike in the current climate"
Even more so if it's a couple/ family we're talking about!
"Whaddaya mean you don't have 12 grand hanging around. Just stick it on finance, cut back on the fags and stop filling your face with kebabs!"
Love it🤩
But there they are....You can go to any trail centre or honey pot location, or bike parks...and everywhere is filled with folks (having fun) on E-bikes. There are some places (like Llandegla for instance) that have almost become E-bike trail centres by default, they're so popular
So they're amongst us, riding bikes, having a grand time, from my perspective it's only folks not on E-bikes that seem to have issues with it.
go out to your average Brit just now and say “I reckon you’re too unfit to cycle 20 miles"
I spoke to one of my colleagues today who was astounded that I cycle 8 miles to and from work on the flat each day. I think what we (regular mountain bikers) think is a acceptable mileage, and what an average civilian thinks is doable is probably further apart than we often think
Oof, you’d be a brave man to go out to your average Brit just now and say “I reckon you’re too unfit to cycle 20 miles, but I’m sure you have a few thousand quid to drop on an e bike in the current climate”
Even more so if it’s a couple/ family we’re talking about!
People always find money for the things they want, whether that's an expensive lease car, an unused gym membership, 4 cans of Stella every night or 20 fags a day. I'm not seeing my colleagues change their habits despite the constant doom-laden headlines on the news.
Agree. I am just at warming up distance by the time the average Brit will be putting their bike back on the car.
Never really understood this barrier to entry nonsense either. If you want to go and ride a bike off road then get a used bike for a few hundred quid and off you go. I ride 3-4 times a week, only own one bike and that bike cost £800 to put together.
As for a fitness barrier, there is a good way to sort that out - ride the few hundred quid bike a lot.
they’re amongst us, riding bikes, having a grand time,
Indeed they are. There are also loads of people doing it on neebs. But the existence of these two groups does nothing whatsoever to negate the fact that there will be loads of other people for whom fitness or money are a barrier. So SR's point stands.
it’s only folks not on E-bikes that seem to have issues with it.
Isn't that a self evidently true obviousism. "It's only the folk not eating meat who have a problem with eating meat"
Well yes of course...
ovviousism
a what now?
Sorry, typo. My eekeyboard is playing up.
Where's that damned typewriter.
But the existence of these two groups does nothing whatsoever to negate the fact that there will be loads of other people for whom fitness or money are a barrier
I don't disagree with you, my point was that I think more people have an issue with fitness than money, not that these barriers don't exist at all.
People don't do mountain biking because it's hard, not because it costs too much. You can do mountain biking on a £500 bike, we all know this, but with a nominal monthly outlay, the bit that stops you from doing mountain biking goes away...That
It's probably easier to get fit than it is to get money though. (Could just be me? Broke singlespeeder...)
But fit people, say my running friends, can get on any old BSO and have a laugh regardless of wealth. Unfit people can get on one and steadily improve. Very few people can just get an ebike on a whim.
Money is more of a barrier than fitness if ebikes are deemed essential by the media/popular perception/whatever.
If you want to go and ride a bike off road then get a used bike for a few hundred quid and off you go.
It's a perceived barrier to entry. People end up seeing forums saying 'oh you really want this and that for X thousand' and magazines reviewing five or six grand bikes as if that's normal and not an absolute **** load of money for a bike.
Or just ignore it and make your own decisions about what you need.
It’s probably easier to get fit than it is to get money though.
For some maybe, and if you've been mountain biking for any length of time, you've probably forgotten (or buried) how hard it was when you started, and for lots of folks, life gets in the way of the time it takes to get fit. A job with long hours...time away from your family, it all adds up.
After a year or so on your £500 bike you're maybe fitter than you were and can tackle some bigger hills...OR...for £70.00 (or there abouts) a month you can go literally anywhere right now. Plus, of course, they're loads of fun, so why wouldn't you?
Or just ignore it and make your own decisions about what you need.
Easier said than done! Hadn't you noticed an entire industry of very clever, very well paid people whose sole purpose in life is to influence your buying decisions in any number of very subtle (or not) ways? I mean, here we all are hanging around the forum of a mountainbike magazine, the existence of which pretty much depends on people trying to market things at us...
I really don't care but on a recent day long ride from Coniston and around Loughrigg, we saw about 20 riders on e-bikes and only 2 other riders on a non e-bikes. I suppose if you have a nice new e bike then it's probably where you would take it to ride.
