[Closed] Are single pivot full sussers obsolete now?

only 26" wheel ones.

Oarnge still manage to charge a premium price for their "obsolete" design!

have other designs evolved so much as to make them feel a bit "numb"

They were never 'numb' surely? One of the reasons people like them is that you get lots of feedback.

geometry / head-tube / wheelsize have more to do with 'obsolete' (or not) than the number of frame elements.

(example: santa cruz bullit, frexample)

My Jekyll seems fun.

Outland released the VPP in 1996 (before going bankrupt and selling the patent to SC and Intense a few years later).

Three years before Orange made the Mr.O DH bike.

Maybe it's the idea you need 8 pivot bearings rather than 2 that's outdated?

They are quite popular on the XC front (Scott Spark, Cannondale Scalpel), but I suppose those are not considered 'real' full suspension bikes.

It really doesn't make a fat lot of difference.

Buy the bike based on how it rides for what you want. Gemoetry and style of kit make far more difference.

They are quite popular on the XC front (Scott Spark, Cannondale Scalpel), but I suppose those are not considered 'real' full suspension bikes.

There's some crap spouted on this forum sometimes, but.............

Ridden most versions and really prefer VPP, FSR next but most people should probably read this before posting any more
http://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=146074

Spark and Scalpel are link driven single pivot to me.

I'd love a Superlight again if I was in a position to buy a full sus. The Superlight thread here is good testament to the love people have for single pivots.

Oh, and numb is the last word I'd use to describe a single pivot

I wouldn't change my Single Pivot bike for anything. It's a 2010 Heckler, still on its original bearings, high chain stays for mud clearance, and certainly more "Fun" than "Numb"

imo for years they have designed linkages to provide designed in characteristics for things like rubbishly damped rear shocks or multiple chain rings. Most new bikes are now single ring with good shocks id suggest.

I couldn't think of the right word, agree that "numb" probably wasn't it.

"Simple" was too literal.

Maybe I was thinking it was hard to get small bump sensitivity but still good for bigger hits?

Not saying the one I had was rubbish, just can't remember in the first place why I went on this endless cycle of trying other designs and brands....

imo for years they have designed linkages to provide designed in characteristics for things like rubbishly damped rear shocks or multiple chain rings. Most new bikes are now single ring with good shocks id suggest.

Got an SP that I use as my main mtb and a proper 4 bar on my bestest bike. 4bar is more supple on climbs and doesn't stiffen up as much while braking. The SP is a nice bike and it's a piece of piss to replace the bearings. Those are my pros/cons, but there's lots of other arguably more important stuff to base your buying decision on.

2 bearings in 3 years on my vpp bike...

VPP Blur LT I had until it got nicked last week was very nice but my trigger seems equally capable and easier to pop off stuff. Not much in it tbh.

Never liked the chain-growth through the pedals on SP. And what happened when you put the back break on.

I suppose there are markets for all types of bikes/suspension.

Best riding bike I've owned was my ASR-SL, was gutted when I cracked the frame after they'd gone out of production.

I ride a Heckler should i get a new bike?

VPP Blur LT I had until it got nicked last week was very nice but my trigger seems equally capable and easier to pop off stuff.

TBH Molgrips has it, demo the frames you like, and decide based on that.

I really like Giant's Maestro frames for their stability, Specializeds Horst link for it's 'dead' feeling (it just did it's job without flaws, I did mine and the bike went very fast), single pivots for their 'lively' feeling (lean back it squats, lean forward it extends, bad if you're writing marketing spiel, good if you want to feel involved in the riding).

I've never ridden a VPP I liked, but maybe that's just me.

In terms of acronyms and small-fiddly-parts count there's nothing between VPP and FSR, but they make different bikes, and there's plenty of different ways to arrange a FSR frame as well (Nicolai put the top link upside down, making it more like a VPP, but still doesn't feel like one).

Got a superlight 29. It's ace!

I've tried a few linkage bikes and they are better (a lot less bob when sprinting out of the saddle), but not enough to bother me. I'll take changing only 2 bearings a year over 8+ any day.

Would have thought four-way adjustable shocks make single pivots a more viable choice now than before.

Would have thought four-way adjustable shocks make single pivots a more viable choice now than before.

Got a Starling Swoop with a single pivot and it rides really really well with a coil shock (X-Fusion Vector coil HLR if you want to know - and I'm really impressed with it)

its been designed to have a linear suspension profile, and the pivot point is just above the top of the chainring, slightly forward of the BB

On the "user" side, there is very little noticeable pedal-bob and it climbs pretty well - 1x11 on it and you just sit and spin. Fireroads, technical climbs and short, sharp "out of the saddle" bursts all seem to be handled quite well. Standing and seated pedalling on the flat seems to be fine too - nothing seems to be too "bouncy" even in lower gears.

Downhill seems fine too - there's a little bit of brake-jack (as you'd expect) but no more than I've ever had with the DW link on the 5-spot or the Horst link on the old Enduro.

rear triangle is pretty stiff too - its not just a swing-arm; there's a bit of design has gone into keeping it from flexing too much, and its nice to look at too 🙂

Got a Starling Swoop

you can count the minutes before he is here telling us its awesome

YOU'RE awesome 🙂

It's all about the GEO, the damping, and the execution. Not the number of pivots IMHO

That PB article is interesting! I have discovered my bike is a single pivot design! Now I can be on the lookout for all the things I have never noticed whilst out just riding it 🙂

I am a very ordinary rider, so happy to accept I would have to be shown (repeatedly) what is meant by pedal Bob and brake jack! It would seem in this case ignorance is bliss 😉

Similar to phil40 - I know what pedal bob is and get a tiny bit of it by frame design and then less again because of the platform valve.

I understand brake jack but have never knowingly experienced it.

I'm too busy pottering having fun 😉

Dam have to sell my Orange now even though it's great in the Alps and UK.

Obsolete - no longer produced or used

Given they are still being produced, sold and used by definition clearly not obsolete...pretty sure my 'obsolete' 26" Orange Five isn't the limiting factor when it comes to my speed...and I'm not to slow

Five 29 is still one of the best bikes I've ever ridden. Though ironically, no bugger bought one. Clever shocks have made single pivots better than ever imo. (and 1x drivetrains are doing interesting things for pivot location, tyre and chainring clearance)

Oarnge still manage to charge a premium price for their "obsolete" design!

I understand brake jack but have never knowingly experienced it.

<engageWormCanOpener>
Can somebody with more of a brain than me actually draw a resultant force diagram to show what the resultant shock force is on something like an orange 5 with 100N of brake force applied to a 180mm rotor?

I may well be wrong, but I suspect it's naff all.
</engageWormCanOpener>

hot_fiat - Member

I understand brake jack but have never knowingly experienced it.

<engageWormCanOpener>
Can somebody with more of a brain than me actually draw a resultant force diagram to show what the resultant shock force is on something like an orange 5 with 100N of brake force applied to a 180mm rotor?

I may well be wrong, but I suspect it's naff all.
</engageWormCanOpener>

Applying the front brake can fire the rider into space. Do you really doubt that applying the back brake can influence the suspension?

There's single pivot and then there's single pivot.

My last bike was an Alpine and it was like riding a sofa (in both good and bad ways). Point it at anything rough and it just soaked it up. Sit and spin on climbs in low gears and it found grip everywhere, stand up and mash a big gear and it was truly horrible to climb on. Never really noticed any big reactions under braking but that's probably me rather than the system. The back end was a bit flexy, but that only bothered me when I rode behind someone else on an Orange and watched the lateral flex with horror - while riding I actually think the flex helped with grip.

My current bike is a Rocket, definitely described by Cy as a single pivot design (albeit with some linkage trickery going on). Couldn't ride more differently to the Alpine - where the Orange just ploughed through stuff, the Cotic needs to be ridden more actively to get the best out of it. Climbing is similar, with seated spinning being fine and stood up stomping a waste of energy. With the linkage, the rear end is stiffer than the Alpine, so the ride feels a bit more 'rattly' as the suspension moves up and over obstacles rather than the back end flexing round them.

Both bikes have VERY similar geometry and weight and the same shock, so I put the difference in feel down to the different approaches to building a suspension platform (although I guess the steel vs aluminium thing might also play a part?).

So I guess from my point of view the answer to the OP question is no.

I'm out with The White Room in Les Arcs this week, and about 2/3rds of the group, and all the guides are on Orange 5s, and tbh, the SP doesn't seem to be holding them back that much.... 😆

Applying the front brake can fire the rider into space. Do you really doubt that applying the back brake can influence the suspension?

My own in-head rendering of the forces involved suggests that the rear suspension on a single pivot bike should compress rather than extend under braking (take a car with torsion beam rear suspension, drive along with the handbrake on & it will squat down). I'd just like to see what the figures actually look like. Think there's only a few parameters involved. Guess it would make a nice simulation project for someone.

#wormseverywhere

My own in-head rendering of the forces involved suggests that the rear suspension on a single pivot bike should compress rather than extend under braking (take a car with torsion beam rear suspension, drive along with the handbrake on & it will squat down).

That IS what happens. People just call it brake jack, it's actually squat.

Makes no difference whether it's squat or lift, the fact is you lose grip, the rear stiffens up and you feel a skipping feeling rather than a skid

All suspension systems do it - not just single pivots. But poor single pivots can make it feel worse than poor Horst links

No not according to

, Ive ridden and owned Multi link systems , Whytes Yetis and Santa cruz, and what i get from my Halifax filing cabinet is just plan confidence inspiring FUN , not the best climber ,but more the way is skips about like a Capri from the 80s (I had a 280 brooklands )fishtailing around behind me when i go downhill , and the best part about it when the bearings in the pivots go its just £4 from the local engineering shop around the corner , not 2 weeks down time while the LBS sources then parts , or a full day rebuilding.

In answer to the above question in my eyes no .

Yup, it's just the terminology- the bike squats but the swingarm jacks up, it's the same thing viewed from 2 different locations. TBH most people couldn't care less, they just notice the bike acting differently on the brakes. And even then that's not necessarily anything to be [i]bothered[/i] about. It's a bit like declaring anti-squat on pedalling to be right or wrong

Brake squat is quite straightforward. If you lock out the fork and only brake with the back brake, a bike with 100% brake squat will stay level. If you have more than 100% brake squat the back end will squat down. If you have less then it'll rise up. If you draw a line from the rear tyre contact patch to the pivot point and it's at 45 deg to the horizontal the bike will have 100% brake squat. If it's steeper you have more than 100% brake squat, and shallower you have less than 100%.

On a single pivot bike the pivot point is obvious. On a 4 bar (short link or Horst link) if you draw two lines, one through the upper pivots and one through the lower pivots, where they cross is the pivot point. Generally Horst link bikes project the pivot point further forwards so have less brake squat than short link (VPP etc) designs.

The brake squat on the tons of linkage driven single pivot bikes is no different to on a simple single pivot with the pivot in the same place.

If there's a problem with simple single pivot designs it's finding a way to drive the shock from the swing arm without suffering a falling rate.

Falling leverage rate:

[img] [/img]

Constant leverage rate:

[img] [/img]

and the best part about it when the bearings in the pivots go its just £4 from the local engineering shop around the corner , not 2 weeks down time while the LBS sources then parts , or a full day rebuilding.

On brake jack my old hecklers did it and after a chat with Tracy M about that long brake arm on the old kona dh bike learned to use it for good, if you could catch it right you could use it to squash the bike low into corners and accelerate out of them.

Mikewsmith.. Just experience at trying to get parts from a dealer

I would say it's not exactly representative, I can't remember the last time I had bearings that were not standard off the shelf items. In 6 years I only ever did 2 bearing changes in my old Enduro frame and it was ridden into the floor.

With and FSR/VPP, you may be able to achieve a slightly better brake jack and axle path, but this comes at the cost of more complexity, bearings (maintenance), flexibility and weight.

With clever design, and modern shock technology the compromises for a single pivot are less than they use to be. With good design or a shock yoke, the shock curve can be progressive. Modern shocks can work well with a linear curve anyway. Chain forces, anti-squat/rise can all be optimised with a single pivot.

Personally, I think the main reason single pivots are considered defunct is that companies were forced to have a differentiator in order to sell their bikes. A new suspension design is a selling point.

Some of you who like the latest and greatest and will always want pivots and acronyms. I want the best bike, regardless of how many pivots it has. And personally I favour simplicity over complexity.

Loads of linkage bike are single pivot anyway. Gwin didn't do too bad on a single pivot Trek Session!

I think these new metric shocks may help because they fit more stroke in less shock length, and (if my brain is working right) having the fixed end of the shock on the inside of the circle whose centre is the main pivot and outside is the moving end of the shock, means you get a progressive rate whilst if it's on the outside of the circle you get a falling rate. If you picture how you package a shock within the front triangle, there is much less space for a more downwards pointing shock (within the circle) than a more horizontal shock (outside the circle), hence why often single pivot bikes have a falling rate.

The easiest way to understand the leverage nature of a single pivot is to consider the line from the main pivot to rear end of shock. Then consider a second line along the length of the shock. The angle between these two lines at mid-shock-stroke, is an indicator of leverage ratio.

If the angle is 90°, you'll have the stroke linear and constant (within small tolerances).

If the angle is greater than 90°, you'll have a falling shock ratio, i.e. softer at the end of the stroke.

If the angle is less than 90°, than you'll have an increasing shock ratio, i.e. 'progressive' in modern terminology.

You can see this clearly on the picture of the two 224s posted before.

However, air and coil shock have their own spring rate that affects the final behaviour. A coil shock has a relatively constant spring stiffness through it's curve. Whereas an air spring stiffens up as you get to the end stroke.

So a slightly falling rate on the frame may result in a linear rate when combined with an increasing rate air shock.

Considered one of the best bikes you can buy, single pivot doesn't hold back the glowing reviews.

[img] [/img]

I would have said given the recent developments in shock technology, owning a single pivot has never made more sense. I'd have another as a winter bike, with a good shock the only real downside is brake jack and squat. If you ride fast enough, none of that matters. (I do not ride fast enough).