[Closed] Are Saint M820 203s overkill brakes for an AM/Enduro bike?

No harm but they're not needed. Deore m615 will stop you dead all day long in the alps with 203s and they're a lot lighter than 820s.

I run Zees front and Deores rear.

I run 820's with 180/160 rotors on my Nukeproof Mega TR. I'm 13 stone and have yet to feel under braked on any descent I've ridden. They are better the the Formula T1s that they replaced.

If you're light on brakes, it seems a bit pointless. Both the brakes, and the rotor size.

Formula brakes are cack - you will definitely see an improvement if you replace them.

I run Zee 203mm fr/180mm rr - there's a lot to be said for the ability to brake hard and late.

I run Zee front and rear on mine with 203s both ends.

I find the 4 pot actually modulates better than the 2 pot Shimanos with less grab, and having the extra power on tap for when your arms are getting tired helps reduce arm pump build up.

Do it 🙂

XT's on my Mega. Plenty, plenty powerful.

If you're looking for spares though, Shimano isn't for you. You still have to replace whole levers and calipers etc. Mind you, an XT lever recently only cost me £23 so not too bad...

I'm going to get some Zees in the next couple of months I think and run them (hopefully) on my existing 203/180mm rotors.

Ok, sounds like it might be a goer 😉

One of the issues with the formulas is also the easy availability, or lack of, for spares and not just their cost.

tbh, i know people slag the Formula's off, but for lightweight me (70kg + 12kg of bike) i've found them really nice to use (powerful, easy to modulate etc) but they are just not really robust enough for what i am now riding.

Think i'll try a set of M820s on the front, leave the Formulas on the back for now, and just try it, and eventually replace the rears as well when i know how the fronts perform 😉

Not taking anyone's advice then!? 🙂 820 is a downhillers brake where weight doesn't matter. A 12kg bike doesn't deserve cannonballs bolted onto it! Really, buy a pair of standard 615, or xt. You'll be amazed hiw powerful they are and great feel/modulation (despite the fashionable comments such as 'grabby' etc). You will get both brakes for less dosh than a single Saint. Seems an easy decision to make.

I've got a pair of m820's that I've used on different bikes over the last six months. They are hanging up now but I found them excellent brakes regardless of rotor size from a carbon ht to a fat bike.

Thing is, how much "heavier" is a set of M820s vs a set of XT's? Is it more than 100g? tbh, my bike collects probably 100g of mud and i don't notice that.......

I know weight weenie-ing is fun, but it's also fairly irrelevant in the real world.

I'm 115kg and XTs 203/180 stop me plenty quick enough.

Serious question on this, I'm a semi big boy at 14 stone thinking to drop down from 203/180 to 180/180 on a new set of zees (coming from old old xt)

Bike gets all round use and needs strong braking as I like going fast but would you not get better performance from a 180 disk in more riding scenarios as it's running hotter more of the time?

I always felt my aztek 203 only got cooking hot after dropping off a mountain etc rather than more 'average' riding conditions.

The zee/saint four pots seem to be right up there for modulation so has anyone upgraded performance by downgrading rotor size (in the welterclyde weight category) ?

dunno about 820's, i have 810's and love em, 203 front, and 203 rear, though i wish the rear was 180 or 160 - too much grabbiness.

I'd stick with your 203mm. Not a lot of weight penalty for extra braking performance.

I have been contemplating getting 4 pots but it depends if youre racing. Think the small weight penalty will be worth having for later braking.

I know Graves uses Saint calipers with XTR levers.

They're over kill for most downhill bikes.

Hope M4 solves your parts issue, great back up and plenty powerful enough with super modulation. Solved!

rephlexer - Member
Serious question on this, I'm a semi big boy at 14 stone thinking to drop down from 203/180 to 180/180 on a new set of zees (coming from old old xt)

Bike gets all round use and needs strong braking as I like going fast but would you not get better performance from a 180 disk in more riding scenarios as it's running hotter more of the time?

I always felt my aztek 203 only got cooking hot after dropping off a mountain etc rather than more 'average' riding conditions.

The zee/saint four pots seem to be right up there for modulation so has anyone upgraded performance by downgrading rotor size (in the welterclyde weight category) ?

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

Are you suggesting brakes need to be cooking hot to work properly? I've never found that; as soon as any dampness has evaporated off them they're 100%. Once they get cooking hot performance drops significantly.

Are you suggesting brakes need to be cooking hot to work properly? I've never found that; as soon as any dampness has evaporated off them they're 100%. Once they get cooking hot performance drops significantly.

I found my pads lasted longer if the brakes were hotter (by using smaller rotors). IME/IMO the increace in power between cold and hot is noticeable if you get the brakes hot enough, I'm 15stone and had 160/140mm brakes for quite a while. You could feel an improvement after the first big pull on the brakes on a decent. They were hope mini's though, so evey bit of power was needed, better brakes proabbly had enough power from cold!

There was though a very fine line between working temperature and fadeing and eventualy the fuild overheating/boiling. So I swapped back to bigger rotors, the added power of that is far more than added by hot brakes and no need to wory if they're still going to work by the end of the trail! Great for learning how to carry speed/brake less, essentialy I was limited in how many pulls of the lever I had!

As for the original question, my shimano XT's aren't more powerfull than anything else, they just require much less effort at the lever, and it all comes in a very short while, pulling it right back to the bars doesn't add much more stopping power. I proved that to myself on the 1in3 slope past my house, you could hold the front brake to the bars and the wheel would still roll rather than lock up, whereas my avids would hold it dead (but that's several times more braking force than you'd ever use, even stopping hard on the road).

Theres no such thing as being overbraked, at the end of a 10-15 braking bump filled run in the alps then you want a brake that will stop you with the least amount of physical effort possible.

This is even more acute on shorter travel bikes as opposed to full on downhill bikes.

I'm putting Zee brakes on my new hardtail build for this reason, even though it wont be ridden in the alps, it will still knock me around in the Peaks/Scotland. 180f/160r still produces more power than 203/180 rear using SLX/XT brakes - at a lower rotating weight.

Zee's are about 40 percent more powerful than a set of XT's, dropping down a rotor size knocks off about 20 percent of that power. So at 180mm you still have a brake that's 20 percent more powerful than an XT with a 203mm rotor.

Not taking anyone's advice then!? 820 is a downhillers brake where weight doesn't matter. A 12kg bike doesn't deserve cannonballs bolted onto it! Really, buy a pair of standard 615, or xt.

Errr, you do realize that those are about as heavy as Saints but you need bigger rotors to get near (ish) to the same power? Right?

The Deore and SLX brakes are actually heavier than Zees. Why anyone buys anything but Zees (save for price) is beyond me.

I've had all three and Zee are heavier than Deore and SLX.

Bikeradar claim differently, however, I've looked at some forum shots and Zee appear to be 5g havier than Deore.

Wow.

Considering you can then save weight by running a 160mm rotor to still get a greater level of power than SLX/XT at 180mm, it's kind of a no brainer. And if you need a 180mm disk on the back for heat fade reasons, you should probably be buying Zee anyway.

Tom_W1987 - Member

The Deore and SLX brakes are actually heavier than Zees. Why anyone buys anything but Zees (save for price) is beyond me.

Because you're wrong?

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Length of cables please? That still only 13g, which is only 8g more than what I've just seen.

Again, a 160mm rotor is going to save you more weight and it's going to be rotating weight.

PS. It's also been weighed on a different ****ing scale.

CRC have XT on offer ATM and they are plenty powerful. Saint are more powerful and look nice but whether you will benefit from the power remains to be seen.

13g! just let a couple of psi outta your tyres and you're back to par! 😉

btw, whats the difference between Zee & Saint? I'm a bit confused?

Oh, and second question, do modern twin pots wear pads evenly and will they stand up to a UK winter well?

The saint has toolless reach and bit adjusters, the zee only as reach adjustment.

The Zee is supposedly a little bit more powerful as well, at the expense of about 2g in weight.

Oh, and second question, do modern twin pots wear pads evenly and will they stand up to a UK winter well?

No, I don't believe so. The point of four parts is partly to get more modulation by having part of the pad come in contact with the disk before the other part/or apply more force.

I have Saint M820s on my Tracer, they're properly properly powerful when you need it but nicely modulated too. I like them, they're probably too good, but if you turn your brain off and grab a handful they'll stop you, quite literally, Dead.

If I was buying again i'd probably get XTs given the price Merlin have them.

Tom_W1987 - Member
Length of cables please? That still only 13g, which is only 8g more than what I've just seen.

Again, a 160mm rotor is going to save you more weight and it's going to be rotating weight.

PS. It's also been weighed on a different **** scale.

Cables are about the same length, as you can see in the pics.

Zee and SLX are the same lever, but Zee calipers are four pot versus the SLX's 2, so Zee are obviously heavier - it's 23g as pictured which sounds about right.

People who feel they don't need the power choose the cheaper SLX. WHich is fair enough. I'd have the four pots myself every time - have Saints on the DH bike, and XTR Lever/810 caliper combination on the trail bike.

arghhh stupid brain, yes 23g.

Yeah, people should choose SLX for price but nothing else.

Going from a 180 rear to 160 rear will shave you 20+g of rotating weight. 203f to 180f will save a bit more, so about 45+g combined.

I got a set of Zees front and back at 45g more than Deore 615M.

Back to the OP, I swapped form SLX to Zee due to the better modulation rather than needing more power.

Zee levers have dimples on them, I presume for more grip, which I don't recall SLX having 😀

Why anyone buys anything but Zees (save for price) is beyond me.

XTR Trails are nearly 100g lighter, and if you believe the BR test, more powerful than a Saint.

Yep.

[img] [/img]

XTR Trails are nearly 100g lighter

A pre-ride dump probably gains more weight saving than that. Mine certainly would.

Bikeradar power value for XTR trail brakes with 180mm rotors = 112nm

Bikeradar power level for Zee with 180mm rotors = 145nm

If you want good modulation like your Formula brakes but good spares availability and prices then why are you looking at Shimano? Hope is the obvious answer - Tech 3 E4 if you want a really good highly adjustable lever and a powerful four pot caliper.

A pre-ride dump probably gains more weight saving than that. Mine certainly would.

Going to the toilet pre-ride and using XTR brakes are not mutually exclusive. 😛

Out of curiosity, what Formulas do you have? Big differences between an entry level RX and a top end The One or similiar (which is a downhill bike to compete with Saint, which just happens to be an xc brake to compete with XTR too)

820 is a very good brake but personally I'd just not buy expensive Shimano- I didnt mind having to replace a whole caliper because of one dodgy seal on my XTs, because it cost me £20. Saint gives you twice as many seals to go wrong and costs 3 times as much to fix any of them. Pricey parts without spares support is a bit brave.

Bikeradar power value for XTR trail brakes with 180mm rotors = 112nm

Bikeradar power level for Zee with 180mm rotors = 145nm

Are you sure that's right? Just a quick glance & I can't even find them tested, and if so, that's a massive increase over every other brake tested (and in fact almost a third more powerful than a Saint).

That said, the number is largely irrelevant to me, as I don't need anything more powerful (or, to be fair, as powerful) as an XTR. So i'd rather save another half a pound over brakes I don't need 🙂

Yeah, fixating on power is a bit meaningless imo, there's hardly a brake on the market that doesn't have more than adequate power, how it uses it and maintains it is more important. It's just something that marketeers and magazines like because you can measure it and say 15% more NMs imo.

Dont agree there Northwind. Brakes with more power are more resistant to fade and help with arm fatigue.

Hob Nob, those figures are correct, the zees are right on the front page of bikeradars brake section. Then check the right spec section for the power they achieved on their dyno.

If anything is meaningless its 100g of weight not braking power. If you really want to save weight save rotating weight, which you can achieve by going to a smaller rotor with no loss of power by running heavier duty calipers.

XTR has a place for the weight weenies but XT and SlX do not, they are just good budget brakes. Dont buy them in an effort to save weight over a zee setup as its totally pointless.

Hmm. Not 100% sure I trust that (or any BR review). It's a massive number compared to any other brake on the market, including Shimano's own flagship DH brake. They actually quote it at 147Nm.

If anything is meaningless its 100g of weight not braking power. If you really want to save weight save rotating weight, which you can achieve by going to a smaller rotor with no loss of power by running heavier duty calipers.

What if you have already saved the rotational weight? 100g of weight each end is nearly half a pound, save that 3 or 4 times & it adds up. It's not meaningless at all, in fact it's no less meaningless than having brakes that are way more powerful than you need.

The power of a Zee for most is pointless, as is the power of an XT or SLX. There isn't a need for a fixation of 'more is better'.

Dont agree there Northwind. Brakes with more power are more resistant to fade and help with arm fatigue.

The measurement you quoted is merely one of mechanical advantage, translating a force at the lever into a torque at the wheel. The true power of a brake is its ability to dissipate heat and would be measured in watts.

If a magazine were to measure brakes properly then they'd provide a mechanical advantage curve (the Shimano servo wave brakes would perform very differently to most others) and power dissipation data. Many brakes feel less powerful than on-off two pot Shimanos but actually have more power and better modulation.

Tom_W1987 - Member

Dont agree there Northwind. Brakes with more power are more resistant to fade and help with arm fatigue.

Nah, not necessarily on either score I think, lots of factors in heat dissipation and handling (fluid volume, how effective a radiator the parts are, piston material, allsorts- and that's just how they absorb and radiate heat, before you get into how well they operate when hot) and brake power isn't just a function of finger force since that's also dependent on mechanical advantage; lever geometry etc. Even changing the lever blade shape can change how a brake feels and how your fingers work. I mean, I'm not a mechanical engineer so I'll not try and put numbers on any of that but there's a load of variables.

Hmm, frinstance... My old Oros weren't the strongest of brakes but they dealt with heat brilliantly, I never got even a whisper of fade out of them no matter what (including deathgrip braking all the way down my first ever fort william dh run, that was basiclaly 10 minutes of nonstop back brake 😆 Rotor went very pretty colours) My Avids were more powerful but overheated pretty easily. And the Saint M810s were pretty mighty but I got tired fingers using them, something I don't generally get.

My current Formulas are "The One", like this:

[img] [/img]

They have the reach adjust and the free travel adjust, and i run 203(f) 180(r) discs. I like how they feel and how they modulate, and in terms of overall power they are fine. But, they are definitely not "fit and forget" with lots of small pieces and i think the discs they come with are simply too skinny and hence squeal like crazy (no damping). In the Alps this year, giving it the full beans down the EWS stages in La Thuile they were ok (just) with sintered pads in terms of thermal performance, but you could certainly feel they were going off a bit by the bottom 1/3 of the stage. The other thing i don't like is that the pads have only a tiny thickness of material on them, perhaps in an effort to save weight and maximise heat transfer to the backing pad, but this means they wear out in wet/gritty conditions really quickly.

Of course, one answer is to brake less...... 😉

I thought about getting a Hope system, but the other thing i would like is world wide spares support, something the commonality of Shimano brings in spades.

Nah, not necessarily on either score I think, lots of factors in heat dissipation and handling (fluid volume, how effective a radiator the parts are, piston material, allsorts- and that's just how they absorb and radiate heat, before you get into how well they operate when hot) and brake power isn't just a function of finger force since that's also dependent on mechanical advantage; lever geometry etc. Even changing the lever blade shape can change how a brake feels and how your fingers work. I mean, I'm not a mechanical engineer so I'll not try and put numbers on any of that but there's a load of variables.

Hmm, frinstance... My old Oros weren't the strongest of brakes but they dealt with heat brilliantly, I never got even a whisper of fade out of them no matter what (including deathgrip braking all the way down my first ever fort william dh run, that was basiclaly 10 minutes of nonstop back brake Rotor went very pretty colours) My Avids were more powerful but overheated pretty easily. And the Saint M810s were pretty mighty but I got tired fingers using them, something I don't generally get.

Good points.

I freaking hated my Oros though, as I thought they faded easily and I got arm pump using them. At the end of the day a lot of bike setup is very subjective.

I thought about getting a Hope system, but the other thing i would like is world wide spares support, something the commonality of Shimano brings in spades.

Hah, you'll be buying new calipers/brake levers for Shimanos if anything goes wrong, whilst you can keep Hopes going for donkeys years. Hopes are still my favorite brakes but I can't afford a set of V4's this year.

My current Formulas are "The One", like this:

Great for people with big manly hands, I however have very girly hands despite being 182cm tall.

Same as mine, those... They shouldn't be fading like that, I don't have the free stroke adjuster things mind, not sure if that makes a difference. (mine have never showed any signs of fade including full runs at Pila and the like, endurance downhill racing on the big bike too) The standard rotors are [i]total[/i] shit, replacing them with something made of metal not holes might help- they used to be an XC brake upgrade but lightness sells so now they're the standard option, which is pretty stupid. Formula are annoying for stuff like this, they end up making a worse product that looks a little better on paper.

The pad thickness is pretty much standard? I've never measured them but by eye they look no thinner than Shimano.

Oh, mine squeal but I've always thought that's just because I've got the bad squeally touch, all my brakes squeal like ned beatty.

Tom_W1987 - Member

Great for people with big manly hands, I however have very girly hands despite being 182cm tall.

FWIW the non-tool-free-adjustable version of the lever has much more adjustment than the tool-free one, which again seems like a bit of Formula speclist bullshit as it adds nothing and makes them less adjustable and more delicate. But reviewers seem to like it.

As Northwind says, better disks if they were fading and castrol SRF/motul 600 if they were boiling might improve things.

FWIW the non-tool-free-adjustable version of the lever has much more adjustment than the tool-free one, which again seems like a bit of Formula speclist bullshit as it adds nothing and makes them less adjustable and more delicate. But reviewers seem to like it.

Noted. If I ever dare/have the cash to to buy Formula again I'll bare that in mind as the R0's have a rather nice power to weight ratio.

Slightly happier blowing money on Hopes as even though they are a heavier than the Formulas, they have worked all the time, the feel is great, they have good heat resistance and the Tech 2/Tech 3 levers fit me perfectly.

I would love a set of R0's though, I just can't bring myself to take the plunge.

TBH, "fade" would be too strong a word for what happened in La Thuile. More just a case of the friction co-efficient dropping off as the pads got hotter, which is normal, even for sintered pads. I happened to have AP Racing Dot5 fluid in them, as that was what i had in the garage last time i bled them (use it in my rally car 😉 which is good for 550degC, so i think it's safe to say the fluid didn't boil......

I might just try swapping to a more "meaty" disc and see if that improves things.

@Maxtorque

Did you make the swap to saints or zees?

M820 Saints:

[img] :large[/img]

So far, so good. Quiet, powerful & nicely modulatable. What's not to like (other than the price 😉

Saint brakes are great, but I found that XT coped fine with long alpine descents and felt nicer than both Saint and Zee in use. Not sure why, the Saints felt over kill for the UK and the Zee's just didn't feel as 'nice' although they were certainly powerful. Only just switched out my first set of pads on the XTs after 7 months of abuse (mainly DH riding or XC with an emphasis on the descents) and I weigh just under 100kg. And i prefer the resin pads for performance and silence over sintered.

Tom KP

Nice, what bike did you put them on?

I've got XT 785's on my 5, but at 100kg+ kitted up I find them under powered..
I've got the same brakes although with goodridge braided hoses on my Anthem. Which are superb.

I think my kitted weight and the heavier 5 requires some more stopping power..

Don't worry read OP...zesty..