Are higher end brakes worth it?

They are better. Only you can decide if they are worth it.

Although Hope brakes are expensive new, they’re very serviceable and well made so you can use them for years and years. My newer set are from 2018, my older from 2013. And they work v well!

My Hopes have never delivered the power I'd have expected for the price of them. They're sufficient, but I've had budget brakes with more oommph.
But..they are beautiful bits of machinery and will last forever.

I keep my bikes for the long term so an expensive set of brakes like Hope, I know they're easy to service and parts are available for a good long while

“My Hopes have never delivered the power I’d have expected for the price of them. They’re sufficient, but I’ve had budget brakes with more oommph.”

Apparently the new Tech 4 ones have a lot more power! I don’t have weak fingers so it’s never been an issue with mine… 😉 (V4 with 220/200 discs might also be helping…)

Most use same pad material and discs so it's lever modulation. My older Guide RS felt better thean my mate's Guide R, as I was used to the RS. They both stopped. R's were more on/off. Did it stop better, probably not.

Higher end or higher priced. The only thing that matters is are they [powerful enough. If you dont get this right and end up with something that lacks power, or doesnt have enough as speed/confidence increases, then you might want to start looking at wheelchair catalogs 😆

Better too much that too little is the order of the day I should think.

Biggest difference in feel IME is between 2 pot and four pot. Four pot don't seem to fade as much but also don't have the snap (on/off) feel of 2 pot. More expensive brakes also have more adjustability so if you like your brakes a certain way then you struggle to achieve it with cheap brakes.

And lastly, top end brakes look nicer.

As for out and out power, I doubt you'd need more power than a SRAM Level with 200mm rotors.

At the momment running the basic SRAM levels, but they’re noisy and there’s zero modulation. Should I upgrade? Mainly do XC stuff, often bikepack, and live in a hilly area.

More expensive brakes are better,but maybe not in ways you would want?

More expensive brakes would normally give you more power, more ability to withstand heat before fading and more adjustments, and potentially (not definitely,need to choose the right brake) more modulation, they won't necessarily be quieter than what you have now .

I've had a few goes on the boys new DH bike with the Hope V4/Tech3.. They feel absolutely LOVELY.

If it wasn't for the internal routing through the frame, i'd already have a set on my bike... I'll get something soon though.

More expensive brakes also have more adjustability so if you like your brakes a certain way then you struggle to achieve it with cheap brakes.

This for me...I've always seemed to have ended up with avid/sram brakes that have been tool-free pad & lever adjustable which i like for getting lever throw and bite right and also the same for front & rear. Got a new bike that came with sram db8 and there's none of that so it's a faff getting them to feel how i like

So maybe getting a bigger rotor at the back would help?

At the moment, I just feel like the Levels feel "cheap".

I find on LONG descents they lose power as they overheat.

P.S. to put bigger rotors on, is it just a case of swapping them out or do I need to buy additional parts? I guess the actual brake would have to sit "further" away from the frame, right?

Also, if I were just going to upgrade one brake, the front would be better as that provides greater braking power right? Cheers!

I've a set of hope xcrs, bought when released so £500, there on the fat bike. And a set of Magura mt5's on the full sus, cost was £130 for the set.

The magura's are a little heavier but cirtainly more powerful, and have better feel. The hopes are light (for hopes) but one leaver has developed a squeak on every use. I probably wouldn't spend the money similar money again, unless going for bling factor or serious weight weenieing.

P.S. to put bigger rotors on, is it just a case of swapping them out or do I need to buy additional parts? I guess the actual brake would have to sit “further” away from the frame, right?

@fatmountain

Yes, you need an adapter. If you're going from 180 mm to 200 mm, for example, you need a +20 mm adapter.

Bigger rotors will need new brake caliper mounts to account for the change in size, that’s it though.

Also, if I were just going to upgrade one brake, the front would be better as that provides greater braking power right? Cheers!

That's the normal way to do it. If you're lacking power, upgrade the front brake.

There is a niche thing about putting a bigger rotor on the back if you are dragging the rear brake a lot and overheating it. Makes sense if you're racing DH or enduro or riding in the Alps. If you're just a trail rider who constantly drags the rear brake, learning to brake properly would be a better thing to do.

You can literally keep Hope brakes going for decades. The new tech4 are everything I could ask for in a brake.

Define worth it?  They are nicer but does that equal better?

Formula Cura's, they were circa £80 an end a few years back. Brilliant brakes, next to zero maintenance needed, all the power and all the modulation, they have a short lever throw (but all brakes should). Tried Saints/XTR and the top end Sram stuff and always feel disappointed. Not keen on 4 pots, as you always get one piston thats playing up and causing issues, 2 pots dont suffer from the same issues in my experience.

There is a niche thing about putting a bigger rotor on the back if you are dragging the rear brake a lot and overheating it.

Actually, SRAM did a research project using power meters on discs that showed 99% of riders used their back brake to finely control speed, whilst the front brake did the heavy lifting as required. Their conclusion was that if you want finer speed control, put a bigger disc on the rear for better power and modulation.

Why not just fit the biggest disks your frame/fork can take?

I wish my brakes were worse

- No one, ever.

I always find in Alps type riding I drag the back brake and a 203 rear rotor is essential just to get the required heat dissipation. At the end of a week its always the back rotor that has discoloured.

I've used XT 2 pots for ages (I weight 74kg) but the new 4 pots are amazing.

got the magura mt5 carbons on one bike, far too powerfull, had to stop using the front brake lever :0)
prefer my hope e4s on other bikes..

i remember upgrading from a basic alivo brake to slx m675's the difference was massive.
you get used to the brakes you use.

i always hated sram, liked shimano, then went hope, havent looked back

Great, thanks - do the more expensive frilly rotors make any difference?

got the magura mt5 carbons on one bike, far too powerfull, had to stop using the front brake lever :0)

Now that you mention it there's a brand new set of MT5's in the classifieds being sold by a handsome northerner.

handsome, not me or my sale @sharkattack. maybe they had the same problem..

Actually, SRAM did a research project using power meters on discs that showed 99% of riders used their back brake to finely control speed, whilst the front brake did the heavy lifting as required. Their conclusion was that if you want finer speed control, put a bigger disc on the rear for better power and modulation.

Which makes perfect sense when you consider that you cant shut off the throttle when descending as gravity cant really be turned off. Cathro's How To Brake video went through it really well too, in short: both brakes to slow > back brake for control > no brakes when you're happy (with the turn in this case) and off you go. So another way of showing how the rear is used more often

Great, thanks – do the more expensive frilly rotors make any difference?

To a degree. Some are quieter, some will clear mud better, some will dissipate heat better.

You'll rarely get one that does all three well.

At £200/pair you're looking at mid-range brakes, which offer the best bang-for-buck and are all anyone really needs IMO.

Deore 4-pot (6120?) are usually cheap somewhere or other (check CRC) and suitable for anything from trail to enduro bikes.

Or the 2-pot versions are cheaper and also excellent.

PS. I've never bothered with fancy rotors, marginal gains at best.

So another way of showing how the rear is used more often

It's not a matter of how often you use them, it's a question of how much power they need. For a full-blown emergency stop, your front brake is doing nearly all the work - your rear tyre will be skipping and barely doing any work. If you try to stop as fast as you can using only the rear brake, you won't be able to generate very high braking force because the wheel will lock very easily. What that means is that hard braking requires a lot of power from the front brake. If you want to increase stopping power, put a bigger rotor on the front.

Sure, you constantly use the rear for control, but that doesn't require a lot of power, modulation is more important. Putting a bigger rotor on will increase the power but decrease the modulation (the physics of how brakes work means that a brake with enough power for high-speed stops cannot also have good low-speed modulation, there's an inherent trade-off). So, even though you use the rear brake more often, it doesn't need as much power and a larger rotor will make modulation more difficult. If you're only going to upgrade one rotor, the front is where it should go.

The exception is DH racers or extremely long descents like the Alps. Dragging a rear brake at those speeds can easily overheat the rotor and racers expect to be able to abuse their brakes without overheating. Putting a big rotor on the back makes sense, but that's a niche situation. Most of us don't overheat smaller rear rotors even though we use the back brake more than the front. If you're not cooking the rear brake, you aren't in this niche category of rider.

I wish my brakes were worse

– No one, ever.

Classic lock up the rear wheel crash.

I used to ride a trail with a similar trap corner. It was on a steep descent, the only way to get around it was to not touch the rear brake and only use the front. As soon as you touched that back brake, you were a goner. Spraying chain lube on the rear rotor would probably give us averagely skilled people a better chance of making the corner.

i remember upgrading from a basic alivo brake to slx m675’s the difference was massive.
you get used to the brakes you use.

This to an extent. I've had some really bad hope X2's in the past that wouldn't have outperformed V-brakes and currently have Sram Guide R's

Are RS's "better" than R's, yes, it's a noticeable difference back to back having that extra leverage. But I've no intention of actually upgrading because TBH on their own I've never felt the standard R's lack anything.

Either I'm an awesome rider and can ride around the limitations of anything, or I'm not good enough to need that last few percent.

And the people who like CODE RSC's are either awesome riders, or princess and the pea sensitive about their setups.

Hope are the exception. You're buying into a set of brakes for life there, if something goes wrong they can be rebuilt without needing whole new calipers/levers/brakes, it's a different sort of "worth it". That's ~£400/set though, at ~£200 it's more marginal IMO.

Either way, spend money on pads and rotors. IME shimano rotors seem to have more surface area to them than SRAM and give more bite as a result.

I switched from Shimano brakes because I got fed up with the lack of parts, something small breaks, new brake time.
I know you could pick up Deore, SLX or XT dirt cheap (a few years ago at least) but I just didn’t like it as it’s wasteful, disposable and in this day and age we should be buying things that can be rebuilt or repaired. There’s enough crap going into landfills and tips without adding millions of every so slightly out brakes.

Hope(other brands are available I’m sure) have really good customer support, are reliable and 100% serviceable

And as said, the newest ones are supposed to be some of the best out there according to many reviewers (including Paul Aston who seems to be very critical on most products).

If you want more power and heat management just put bigger rotors on.

Spending top money on brakes doesn't necessarily give you any more power.

My brake of choice* is still the Saint despite owning and using Cura4's and Hope Tech4 V4's.

I'm also happy to ride the same trails on SLX 4 pots as long as they're on 203 rotors front and rear.

* I like the instant bite of them.

Good replies, very informative. Thanks.

I also asked Chat GPT. It agrees.

Mountain bike brakes come in various types and designs, but the most common are hydraulic disc brakes. One of the crucial factors in determining the braking performance is the rotor size. The front and rear rotors can have different sizes, with larger rotors providing more stopping power.

In terms of braking power, four piston brakes generally provide more stopping power compared to two piston brakes. This is because the four pistons spread the brake force evenly over a larger area, leading to more efficient braking and less heat buildup. However, four piston brakes also tend to be heavier and more expensive, so the choice between the two options depends on the rider's specific needs and preferences. Additionally, two piston brakes can still provide ample stopping power for most riders, especially if they are used with larger rotors.

Hopes are overpriced and underpowered for what you pay. Sure they last ages but so have my shimano and formula brakes. Just as lengthy lifespan and in the case of formulas way easier to live with.

Hope pistons stick for fun and across 5 sets they’ve needed what feels like constant piston lubing.

BUT, dont underestimate the impact of crap after market pads.

People spend hundreds on brakes then fit Superstar or Unerbike pads to save a few quid. And then wonder why stopping power goes down.

Galfer and EBC pads are about the only MTB pads i’ve found that equal or exceed stock pads. Dont know if they still do but Galfer made the stock hope pads.

As for noise, thats almost certainly poor adjustment or contamination. Just like old v-brakes and toe not set properly, a caliper slightly out of centre or slightly warped disc creates vibrations and noise.

By the sound of what you ride the levels should be fine if set up properly.

£200 an end or £200 full set?

If £200 an end i’d deffo recommend the Cura 2’s. Made my tech 3 v4’s feel like i’d stepped out of new car and going back 50years!

If £200 full set then save your money. Set em up properly and get some decent NOT uberbike etc pads.

Roll on the “what do i know……uberbike pads are the best ever”!!! @1/4 the price of stock…..

Honest question.

Would a pair of 2 piston brakes with 2 bigger pistons be as strong as a 4 piston set with smaller pistons? I know the consensus is always 4 pistons equals more power but is more likely to suffer from pad alignment problems but could you not just make bigger 2 piston brakes to increase power without having to align 4 pistons?

it's not a higher/lower end thing really, it's just about the right brake, that works properly and works well for you. Quite often higher end will mean higher quality but equally it can mean all the money's been spent on gram shaving and carbon, or the novelty marketing team has specced 50 different tool-free adjusters and nobody even knows what one of them is supposed to do.

zerocool
Full Member

Would a pair of 2 piston brakes with 2 bigger pistons be as strong as a 4 piston set with smaller pistons?

It's not quite so simple because there's complicated stuff like seal area, some efficiencies etc but, basically yes. Pad shape and size can have more complex results and arguably 4 pots give designers more options there. But it is imo mostly about marketing. Companies that struggle to make a good reliable brake especially have naturally flocked to it, same as companies that couldn't make a good 29er were all over 650b.

Mine are all 2-pot, but that's just because the brakes I like happen to be 2-pot, I'd just say find a brake you like and whatever number of pistons it has is fine. (if I designed a brake for me, it'd be a 2-pot probably. If I designed a brake to sell, it'd be a 12 pot with 19 adjusters and active cooling fans and a 3-part disc and a special non-standard bolt spacing, people love that shit)

“ Would a pair of 2 piston brakes with 2 bigger pistons be as strong as a 4 piston set with smaller pistons?”

The hydraulic advantage is just the piston area divided by the master cylinder area.

I suspect four piston brakes are used for more power because of the rotor track width - you’d need special discs to handle pistons and pads that are wider in the radial direction. And because with four piston brakes one pair of pistons always clamps down first so you get better modulation as well as more power.

Would a pair of 2 piston brakes with 2 bigger pistons be as strong as a 4 piston set with smaller pistons?

The problem is that brake pads are elongated to follow the shape of the rotor. You can put the same force on the pads with a 2-pot brake as a 4-pot, but the distribution of force won't be the same. Having a larger pad will help with high performance brakes because there is greater pad surface area and mass to dissipate heat. Also, you can use different sized pistons to adjust the pressure across the brake pads. If you look at motorsports, they use 4 or 6 pot calipers. If they thought 2-pots could do the job, they'd use them to save weight and complexity.

In my personal experience, aging, overweight keyboard warriors who occasionally ride a bicycle will find good 2-pot brake perfectly adequate for their skiving off and hitting the trails up behind work on an extended lunchbreak. If you are serious about racing DH, some 4-pot Saints should be your benchmark.

Long as they don't say SRAM or Shimano you'll be reet.

Unless of course your the sort to move to the latest and greatest every couple of years mind. Then they will be someone else's headache.

Check out some of the youtube reviews of cura2’s on downhill bikes. I run cura 2’s and they way outperform the hopes i removed. Better feel and i stop quicker.

Eye popping stopping power but great feel and control too.

More than enough brake for any accoustic bike. I’d happily run Formula twin pots on any bike without a battery. Especially for the simplicity of alignment and maintenance. I always find 4 pots more finicky getting them aligned.

And Paul @ elro distribution is fantastic to deal with. Like hope, its a big plus in my books to have a person to deal with if you have questions and issues. I bought hopes for that reason. Now i’d buy formula because their brakes are better imho!

I toyed with running cura 2’s (they’re that good) on my eBike to replace the shimano twin pots - scarily underbraked for any ebike but didnt want to faff internal routing and find I’d have been better with 4 pots due to extra weight.

One of the better review articles I’ve seen as they do it more scientifically and show stopping distances.

https://enduro-mtb.com/en/best-mtb-disc-brake-can-buy/

Having run cura 2’s, cura 4’s, xt 2&4 pot, E4’s and v4’s I had similar experience as the result suggest - poor stopping on hope, eye popping for cura’s. And as they say with pads, throw in some crap after market pads and stopping speed goes up massively. I didnt appreciate just how much it’d affect the brakes but i struggled to feel confident in my E4’s running the Uber Race Matrix. The diference between them and Galfer organic was like night & day.

Is there one that’s been done this decade?

Is there one that’s been done this decade?

proper test I doubt it. Sponsored and funded by interested parties probably every edition of most mags?

Yep. Every brake test done since the one you like has been sponsored and funded by *someone* to further their own interests.

Who, exactly? Why wasn’t that one?

Should we discount everything that’s been released since?

thols2
Free Member

The problem is that brake pads are elongated to follow the shape of the rotor. You can put the same force on the pads with a 2-pot brake as a 4-pot, but the distribution of force won’t be the same. Having a larger pad will help with high performance brakes because there is greater pad surface area and mass to dissipate heat.

For the first, do you think it matters? It's pushing a flat pad onto a flat disc so there's not much bending force, and the amount of "unsupported" pad is small in either the 4 pot or 2 pot case.I'd be amazed personally if this makes any difference. Larger pads have less predictable effects, since a large pad has less pressure per mm2, compared to a small pad being pushed by the same piston. More friction surface but less pressure.

I doubt pad size is really a factor in heat dissipation, again the realistic differences are very small.

My Tech3 E4s were, to me, worth every penny after the honky, fading SRAM brakes I had before or the leaky Shimano ones for that manner.

But I'm a sucker for an upgrade so have Tech 4 V4s with 200/200 2.3 rotors on the way.

I'll be moving the Tech3 brakes on, I need to stop hoarding bike parts.

One of the better review articles I’ve seen as they do it more scientifically and show stopping distances.

It would be interesting to see where the new tech 4 V4's come in that chart.

If you are serious about racing DH, some 4-pot Saints should be your benchmark.

They cost about the same price as for example the new Hopes, but are pretty much disposable, and the hopes you can service. Power aside, it seems to make more financial sense to get Hope over Shimano.

Power aside, it seems to make more financial sense to get Hope over Shimano.

If you're racing DH, power will be your first consideration. You don't have to buy Saints, the point is that they are the benchmark that would compare other brakes to.

I have some old Saints that I bought second-hand. I don't know how old they are, but I'm guessing more than 10 years. Honestly, if they run for ten years with just pad changes, that's a pretty decent lifespan for MTB gear.

Better brakes are worth it if you’re finding you need more power or you don’t like the way your brakes deliver their power.

Levels are an entry level / xc kind of brake. I had some on a commuter type bike and they were reliable and just did their thing.

I’ve used Guide R on an enduro bike and hardtail and they weren’t bad with 200/180mm rotors and were totally reliable for me (they were the later ones - not part of the batch that had pistons that swelled in hot weather).

I tried Guide RE as they came up cheap and they were much stronger as they had a big DH brake caliper - but had the same slightly wobbly levers after a while (bushings in the lever rather than bearings).

Moves to Code R when I saw a good deal and they were a big step up on guide r and a little bit better than guide RE - the levers are much stronger built with a bigger master cyclinder reservoir.

I’d love some Code RSC or Hope Tech 4 V4 - but I don’t need them / can’t justify the cost for finer margins. On the big bike I’m running a 220mm front disc and that gives more bite than the previous 200mm one - not sure if it’s the bigger diameter or the thicker disc or a bit of both.

And as they say with pads, throw in some crap after market pads and stopping speed goes up massively. I didnt appreciate just how much it’d affect the brakes but i struggled to feel confident in my E4’s running the Uber Race Matrix.

interesting to hear that you dont like uberbike race matrix pads, I've used them in a variety of brakes over the years, including sram code rsc, shimano xt 4 pot , magura mt7, and found them better than the stock pads by quite a long way. I havent really heard many people complain about the race matrix compound.

I did try uberbikes sintered pads (yellow) once , because it was all they had in stock, and found them very lacking in bite though.

I agree about superstar pads (although its probably been 8 years since I last tried a superstar pad) - they always felt quite weak.

I like uberbike race matrix in all my brakes when the weather is decent / it’s wet but not gone to full bog snorkelling territory. When it gets to the latter type of weather they can get overwhelmed and lose their bite.

For sram brakes the standard sram sintered pads are the best ones I’ve found for really bad weather. Uberbike sintered pads are ok but not great.

In my experience, no, they are not worth it. Budget Shimano brakes perform very well and are very powerful - they just come with less features than the more expensive versions.

Hayes Dominion A4s were totally worth it for me. I did wonder if some halfway house option might have sufficed, they probably would have, but with these I was confident it'd be one purchase to get the power and feel I wanted.

I agree about superstar pads (although its probably been 8 years since I last tried a superstar pad) – they always felt quite weak.

They've been totally fine since they re-started doing brake pads, their organic or sintered both work well with my Zee brakes.

But I find Shimano brakes still work pretty well with most aftermarket pads, as the 4-pots have plenty of power anyway.

When I had Code R brakes, they would show up cheaper pads a bit as the marginal loss in power was more noticeable - by not being able to stop on steep bits  😀