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Are they still a thing or just a niche thing nowadays?
Because I noticed something on the canyon website that kinda seems like one...and it got me thinking!
Any new brands / players in the category?
Is there any standout obvious choices
The Stoic? Yes, with a 65HA and a 140mm fork it's in the realm of hardcore hardtail.
Most modern hardtails that aren't XC bikes probably fall into this category, there's loads of 150mm 65 head angle long slack hardtails out there, mostly frame only options.
150 sounds a bit too hardcore!
Steel hardtails like this are definitely still a thing. I’ve got a Ragley Big Wig, 140mm 65HA bike, great bike and very quick and composed for a HT. If you’ve not tried one it’s definitely an itch worth scratching.
I think it depends on what boxes a hardtail needs to tick for you to think of it as "hardcore".
My opinion is that the use of it as a marketing term has dropped off a bit, but the bikes themselves have become fairly normalized. There are plenty of examples of current frames that would fit the "hardcore hardtail" remit for me in terms of geometry and travel.
A non-exhaustive list might include:
* Ragley Mmmbop
* Stanton Switch9er
* Cotic BfeMAX
* Pipedream Moxie
* Bird Forge
150 sounds a bit too hardcore!
it really isn't. At 20% sag it's more like 135-130, and you're going to need at least that.
As above, I think they’re just called ‘hardtails’ now. There’s plenty of 140mm+, sub 65 deg HA bikes/frames out there.
Some are more 'hardcore' than others, mind you. Hello Dave and it's 62 degree HA and zero respect for lightness.
My hardtail is 67.5 degrees and 120mm 29er. From reading this, it seems it's not hardcore, just burly?
We get Dartmoor and Dabomb frames on sale where I am, saying they're for 140-160mm fork. Almost bought a Da Bomb Sentinel until they ran out of the large size.
My hardtail is 67.5 degrees and 120mm 29er. From reading this, it seems it’s not hardcore, just burly?
Sounds like " Downcountry " 😉
My mate has a Hello Dave and he loves it. It does not feel as weird to ride as you'd expect with that head angle.
My Bardino is not quite as extreme. 160mm fork, 64 deg head angle, 2.6 tyres. It's not light, but since it has a couple of pounds of mud on it most of the time, that's not really an issue 🙂
In normal filth mode
My hardtail is 67.5 degrees and 120mm 29er. From reading this, it seems it’s not hardcore, just burly?
I'd class that as a 'modern' XC hardtail.
They've sort of gone mainstream so the 65deg HA Canyon one you're looking at would be excellent for general trail riding. Personally 140mm is the most fork I'd want on a hardtail, and maybe 130mm is optimal.
But as mentioned above there are now even-more-hardcore hardtails with downhill bike geometry - and which I wouldn't touch with a bargepole (I do have that geometry on my main trail bike but I absolutely want the rear suspension as well).
Sounds like ” Downcountry ” 😉
It's a 2018. Doesn't that predate "downcountry"? Or was I a trendsetter?
I think Walleater (happy Christmas, Will) might have something to say on this. He rather enjoys tootling around his local trails (many of which are built by his own fair hands) in Squamish on his Chromag Arcturian hardcore hardtail.
It’s a 2018. Doesn’t that predate “downcountry”? Or was I a trendsetter?
Are you saying you could be to blame for "downcountry"? 😱🤯
My Bardino is not quite as extreme. 160mm fork, 64 deg head angle, 2.6 tyres. It’s not light, but since it has a couple of pounds of mud on it most of the time, that’s not really an issue
My Lacrau (Bardino with a gearbox) is running a 150mm Fox 36, also normally covered in mud! Think it works out as a 64.5 HA static.
Are you saying you could be to blame for “downcountry”? 😱🤯
I really didn't think that through, did I. Emphatically, it wasn't me. It's just a bike. I've never tried to categorise it and never thought it needed one. Oh eck!
Fetch the pitchforks lads!
The front end of my hardtail, recently.
It's a lot more hardcore than I am
Makes me laugh to think we thought my mate Ian was crazy putting a 90mm fork on his Kona hardtail in the late 90s…
I’d class that as a ‘modern’ XC hardtail.
Yep, the BMC Twostroke is similar to that and that is an XC bike.
Makes me laugh to think we thought my mate Ian was crazy putting a 90mm fork on his Kona hardtail in the late 90s…
*Remembers wistfully the early noughties, going from a 75mm travel, elastomer sprung RST Gamma, to a ‘long travel’ 125mm Marzocchi Z1…
All fields etc
Hopefully moving my 27.5 P7 on after winter, for something 29 and even slacker.
On the look out for a Kona ESD frame - if they ever hit the UK. Moxie is nice back up if I can’t find the ESD. I’ve had two Chromags in the past, but harder/more expensive now with taxes etc.
Love a good HT razz.
My current trail bike is a trek ex 130mm (or 140 cant rmember) prob 67 headangle...and thats as burly as I've ever ridden...did have a specialized fuse a few years back.
Mainly rode xc bikes...specialized epic, f29
Deffo recommend a ride on a slack 150mm+ hardtail, they're a riot.
The only issue with them is the front end writing cheques the back end can't cash 😀 Oh and the 64 degree HA that becomes something like 70 degrees at full compression!
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Was watching Hardtail party last night and would really like a go on the Pipedream Sirius. Short travel but nuts seems like a great combination. I already have a BFe which I love but thats a big travel monster truck.
So many ragley, slacking pipedream models!
Are you looking at replacing your current full sus with a hardtail?
Where do you ride?
No, once I sell my canoe...I was thinking of something I've never had...also wondered about fat bikes...this would be for riding in the lakes
Makes me laugh to think we thought my mate Ian was crazy putting a 90mm fork on his Kona hardtail in the late 90s…
A chap in a CP near the Chilterns once told me to my face that I was "An idiot" for putting a 100mm Manitou X-Vert on a hardtail some point in the early naughts. There was clearly "no need for that amount of travel" and I would "destroy the trails"
A bit of me sort of hopes that he rides around on a 150mm FS e-bike, but I suspect he doesn't
I think hardcore hardtails have moved on - looking at 150mm+ fork travel and 64 or slacker headangles for the most extreme ones.
My hardtail is steel, 140mm Pike, 65.5 degree headangle, 2.6x27.5” tyres, Codes etc. I’d class that as ‘trail’ these days. It’s a custom Marino but I designed it broadly as a ‘medium’ bit with a few tweaks specifically I wanted. Short 425mm chainstays, short 395mm seat tube for a long dropper post, middling 445mm reach, acres of standover clearance, long headtube (125mm) so the front end is quite high.
Really playful and just a good allrounder. Will do steeper tech stuff without killing you, but also really fun on pedally flow stuff - loves to manual and pop off stuff.
I think the term hardcore hardtail was because they used to be much morenold school geometry and more about light weight and xc riding. Now what would have been called a hardcore hardtail is now just a hardtail and anything more conservative might be called xc.
Regardless of what you want to call them, I think they're great fun. I've got a 140mm travel 29er with 64° head angle. It doesn't feel extreme at all once you're used to it.
Many years ago I ran Rock Shox Judy DH forks on a hardtail . They were just 70mm travel! That was considered DH in those days!!
Things have generally changed very much for the better. Unfortunately some things still move in strange directions with racing/pro set ups (need for selling new gear) still having a bit too much influence on fun/trail bikes. What works for sponsored pros isn’t always the best option for every day riders.
XL Hello Dave owner here - awesome bike as happy pumping bike park berms as it is trundling about locally.
Comes at the end of a long line of 'hardcore hard tails' ownership stretching back through Ragley Bluepig, Evil Sovereign, Brooklyn Park Bike, Spooky Metalhead, Mk1 Chameleon to my BMX days.
Right: 140mm front /130mm rear, 65, 66HA = a trail bike
66/65 130/140mm forked hardtail is a hardtail version of the same. So:
Hardtrail.
I've got one. it's great.
And a FS bike is a skills compensator, a hardtail, hardtrail bike is a skills aggravator?
this would be for riding in the lakes
People ride hardtails in the Lakes obvs, but a full-sus is a much-better option IME.
Geometry has advanced so a lot of modern 130mm or 140mm travel bikes are brilliant all-rounders now.
Even for local riding (your username shows as Bolton on the front page), I find a short travel FS bike much more enjoyable than a hardtail - with all the cobbles and stuff.
I'm just gonna leave it at that, sharing my personal experience, as I don't want to get into an argument with the hardtail purists.
People ride hardtails in the Lakes obvs, but a full-sus is a much-better option IME.
Rode my Nordest in the Lakes for 1.5 days, after that my legs were in bits so switched to the 150mm coil sprung FS bike for the other 3 days of riding.
I've put another order in with Kona UK for a Honzo ESD, should be in the UK for March so will see what happens.
Have gone from a trek stache 29er running 120mm to a marino custom 29er running 150mm, the trek was a trail bike with a lighter set up and less rugged set of tyres on it. The Marino has wider rims, downhill casing tyres and 4 pot brakes which made it great for more extreme riding without worrying that I might break something. Like any LLS bike you have to change your riding system to get the most from them
LOL merry Christmas BigJohn.
I don't know what my Chromag is to be honest. Reading the Chromag spiel, I think it's an extreme gravel bike 😉
https://ca.chromagbikes.com/products/frames-arcturian
I'm a fan of understated paintjobs, but I'd have that 3x fade on that Arcturian. Hawt!
That needs a pink cane creek Helm fork to set it off nicely.
With the Canadian made Chromags you can get to choose your own paint scheme (at extra cost depending on what you want).
I don't know if Instagram links show up here, but for mine I chose a recreation of the Klein 'Backfire' paintjob from around 1990. Painted by Chris Dekerf, and welded by Mike truelove in Squamish.
It's now a 'subtle mullet' as I cracked the rear rim, and built a normal 29er wheel to replace it.
I bought an On-one Hello Dave this year as I wanted to to ride steep trails. But also have a bike that was like nothing I'd ever owned before. Ive only ridden on proper steep trails (steep for me anyway) a few times and it was amazing how accomplished it was. I wouldn't want to ride it all day xc style but I have other bikes for that sort of riding.
My steel-framed Bird Forge with a 160mm Lyrik on the front probably fits the niche.
Maiden voyaged in late summer and my poor neglected 160mm full susser (Aeris 1.5) has barely turned a wheel since. It’s absolutely chuffin’ brilliant.
Geometry is so, so good that it’s easy to forget it’s a hard tail on the local off-piste stuff. Only problem I’ve come across is my feet being pinged off the pedals after rattling into a rock garden etc.
They’re better than ever and there’s so many to choose from! I rode a Cotic Soul from 2010-2015, a Bird Zero AM from 2015 to now and have a Pipedream Moxie in the pipeline arriving early next year. Each bike is longer and slacker with bigger wheels and more travel than the one before.
My hardtail journey
2001 Raleigh something or other with 100mm fork- cracked riding steps
1990's norco with 50mm bomber- cracked by someone opening a car door into me
2001 maxlight with 100mm forks died when the down tube hit a rock when I crashed
After that I got a 2001 cove stiffee. Super slack 70 head angle and ran between 100 and 130mm forks. It had some u-turn rock shocks that were best at 115mm. Now it would be a gravel bike but it lasted me untill
2018 160mm hello Dave predecessor sick shrike. 62 head angle and 160mm of steel goodness.
The trails I ride haven't really changed. I picked my way down fort Williams dh run on the cove. There were all ace, bit in currently very happy on the dave
Many years ago I ran Rock Shox Judy DH forks on a hardtail . They were just 70mm travel! That was considered DH in those days!!
Yep, the red DH ones were 70mm travel, the yellow XC ones were 60mm.
Hard and indeed, core!
However coming from their precursor, the RS Mag 21 with 46mm of travel, it was quite revolutionary. Then Marzocchi came along with the Z1 and RS were left way behind!
RockShox? You lucky swines.
RST381 was all I had on my Clockwork c16r
(And thought I was lucky etc).
62 HA,485 of those reach things, 150 fork.
Just a hartail designed for my local trails.
No idea if it's hardcore or not.
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Mate has a PAce 529 and he's a big lad, soaks everything up, and I ride a FS.
I love my on one hello dave. I think @ta11pau1 is spot on regarding the front end being so capable but then you have nothing at the rear. Some form of rear rim protection is needed if you are riding rocky stuff. It has definitely made me ride differently to my trek remedy and it climbs better too.