[Closed] Are bike lights a rip-off?

even the expensive ones are a bargain.

it gets dark in winter. riding lights mean you can carry on riding after work. If you live in england/wales, you can ride all the cheeky footpaths.

night riding is ace, you need lights, and they're cheaper than joining a gym.

Yes - but so much bike stuff is.

But ahwiles does have a good point

a 150 lumnen headtorch is not comparable to most decent bike lights.

However bike lights from the bike components manufacturrers are hard to justify the cost compared with the likes of DX

I know, I mean, you can buy bikes for £150 from Argos too! Disc Brakes, full suspension and everything. OK, it's 'only' 24 gears but I don't why you'd want to spend more for just 3 more gears and a bit less weight.

I'm not disputing the fact that night riding is ace, its just last time I looked at lights to get relatively advanced features seemed to command really expensive solutions which are often executed in much simpler ways by other manufacturers.

A lot of the cost is the huge battery pack as well, for £60 you could have had a much more powerful emitter and a big rechargable battery pack.

For double that again you could have a quad cree with a big flood, for double again you'd get a solid warranty + support + a nicely CNC'd + waterpoof guaranteed body.

Diminishing returns, as with anything obviously.

Above a certain level you're paying for refinement, build quality and warranty support. And batteries that don't melt when you charge them.

My new 1200 lumen helmet light from Four4th was £195, and I consider that good value for money based on the amount of riding it will let me do over the winter months. Plus, the head unit is nicely designed, as is the helmet mount. The light output is perfect for trail riding, and most importantly for me, I was able to call one of the chaps that makes them to discuss the various options, to determine which light I was going to plump for. I also know that their after sales service is good. As was Hope's when my Vision 4 needed a new light unit cable which was replaced FOC.

The single best purchase I ever made, since get into riding, was a set of those cheap Smart lights off CRC - remember the ones? I think they were £40

I started night riding and never looked back. They did me for 2 winters, out at least 2 nights a week. They opened up a whole new world to me. I think I actually enjoy riding more at night than during the day. As smiles per quid spent go? Beyond comparison!

I've long since splashed out on decent (read expensive) lights. You don't have to spend a fortune though 😀

I think Yetiman's investment is probably about right

expensive and rip off is very subjective. Bike lights are certainly the former, the latter is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Shonky lights are potentially quite bad, lights that work well and are reliable are [i]worth[/i] more.

A decent set of lights will enable you to ride in the evenings for 6 months of the year. It's a price worth paying imo. 2 dx xml jobbies will cost you £60, get a diffuser for one of them for £3.50. Jobs a good un.

Some may be seem overpriced some are cheap .
the cheapies have got a lot of folks riding in the dark so have been good for the sport

How they make a profit after sending them around the world is beyond me
I would like to think my lights are not a rip off
but the increased speed in which the DX bastids have proliferated is a worry and I can see them making me stop designing and selling my stuff in the not too distant future .

Like bike prices, I think they reached the peak of cheek last year.
Slowly getting more reasonable, but generally still a lot of dough for a torch I reckon.

Don't you dare Trout!

You and designers like you are what keep whats left of this country ticking. The great tradition of men in sheds have changed the world more than once in the past!

Besides, I suspect that your products will have different customers to the DX stuff. Those that buy DX etc, do so because they are either dipping their toe in the night riding scene, or they simply cant justify the cost.

There are quite a few STWers out there with very posh unobtanium bikes, will happily pay the prices you charge because of a few reasons:

1. You design and invent with biking in mind.
2. You are a highly skilled/motivated manufacturer/designer of bespoke wonder goods
3. After the sale, there is always room from upgrades and tinkering

Mass produced vs bespoke just is not an argument or an issue. Both survive, both face similar challenges, but deal with them in different ways.

Out of about three or four people I know with Bastids, all of them have broken or needed rewiring within a couple of years. The wiring on my Hopes went too but they were fixed (completely new battery unit in fact) within a couple of days of posting them back.

Another mate had a similarly good experience with Light and Motion - his broken HID was upgraded to a new Seca 700.

Not knocking the cheap lights, whatever gets people out riding is cool, but there is a difference between them and the more expensive stuff.

Trout... have you got details of the lights you make/sell? Im after a set of decent lights and wondering if I should part with £320ish for the new Hope R8's or Exposure 6pack or consider something cheaper or different.

I'd add Lumicycle to the 'excellent customer service' bracket Mr Agreeable. I had an issue with my (few year old) battery blowing fuses. It was sorted in a couple of days, and they couldn't have been more helpful.

You don't mind paying the extra when you know you're getting proper back up like that. Stuff like that is built to be serviced/repaired and to have a bit of longevity

Creamegg

some details [url= http://www.troutie.com ]here[/url] need to add some more very soon

On the other hand, when I blew my own bastid up by being a tard, I fixed it myself with a $4 board and a soldering iron ...

Decent bike lights are pricey, which is why the whole home-made thing took off.

wors - where do you get the diffuser for that?

I just bought one of those as a head light to compliment the L&M SECA on my bars, but the spot is quite tight, even for a head torch.

Creamegg,

Long standing [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/riding-trouts-cutie ]thread[/url]

Out of about three or four people I know with Bastids, all of them have broken or needed rewiring within a couple of years

and???? The P7 bastid was fricken disposable when you compare them to the price of the Hope, buy 4 of the P7 torches and you'd still not paid as much as one [i]Hope[/i] (replace with any of the large suppliers, I have nothing again Hope specifically) unit.
As for the terrible inconvenience of repairing a £50 light with a new £2 connector and 1 minute with a soldering iron, oh wow I must go and give [i]Hope[/i] 5x the money.

Paying a large amount of money for a light is no guarantee that it'll be that much better, or produce any more light - definitely wasn't in my case. You pay your money and make your choice, if you have lots to spend by all mean spend lots I'll not stop you, but I'll not be do it anymore either.
Other than to the 'likes' of Troutie, for a premium product still cheaper than from Hope et all

thanks Trout and Andy... will have a proper look later. I did actually see your lights on some website yesterday but didt make the connection with the name.

wors - where do you get the diffuser for that?

[url] http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300545626206&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:GB:1123 ]Diffuser[/url]

thebunk - Member
I know, I mean, you can buy bikes for £150 from Argos too! Disc Brakes, full suspension and everything. OK, it's 'only' 24 gears but I don't why you'd want to spend more for just 3 more gears and a bit less weight.

27-geared bike has only one more gear than a 24-geared bike. After all all you are adding is one more cog on the back. A 27-geared bike has 27 combinations of 13 gears.
Reference savings you have to take into account how dependant a person is on his bike. Also most car drivers would move up a level or 2 if they could afford with no discernable benefit i.e. you won't get there any quicker or be nay more comfortable, I am of course ignoring conspicuous consumption. While an extra gear or a lighter bike has clear benefits for the cyclist who uses his bike as a means of transport.

I have 2 x cheapy lights - I'm starting out at night riding. They are the only way many people can afford to try out the sport. But in the longer term if I keep up night riding I would hope to get better lights/more expensive lights. I don't think £300 for good lights is too bad but I just can't afford/justify it at the moment.

I hope the really good bespoke/non bastid light makers can hang in for a year or so because I think they will reap the benefit of a much larger potential market by then.

And lets face it, there are some very very expensive light manufacturers out there trading on their name and peddling second rate or old technology - and they will have to raise their game or disappear. Not a bad thing.

27-24 iz 3 more gears innit! And Bouncy Bouncy at both endz! For 150 quid! Bargain!

Toasty - Member
A lot of the cost is the huge battery pack as well, for £60 you could have had a much more powerful emitter and a big rechargable battery pack.

For double that again you could have a quad cree with a big flood, for double again you'd get a solid warranty + support + a nicely CNC'd + waterpoof guaranteed body.

Diminishing returns, as with anything obviously.

Can you give me an example? Is a quad cree a 4 light.
I am using Trail Tech HIDs 650 Lumens, which I am very happy with but I just bought an unused Trail Tech 800 lumens LED. As I already have 2 very large battery space batteries for my Trail tech hids and charger. I thought I had better stick with them. But as stated earlier I am not sure the price is true reflection of costs especially when I look at the cheap but bright LEDs on EBay.

I can see why Trout has concerns but from my experience I bought some of the deal extreme lights which were cool for a couple of winters but after a while you long for something with a little more quality so you naturally move onto better quality lights produced by people like Trout and luminous. From the response and feedback Troutie gets I don't think he and others like him have much to worry about. The difference in quality of light output between DX lights and high quality units is night and day...

are boutique brands of bike lights just a bit silly money?

They are only silly money relative to your finances or how much pleasure/use you will get out of them.

Quality usually means longevity ,so spread out over the years they can be a cheaper product in the end.

I used to have a cheap £30 quid pair of lights. They were fine until they well apart going "uphill" on a rough climb! I think durability is a large thing you pay for when getting good lights.

thebunk - Member
27-24 iz 3 more gears innit! And Bouncy Bouncy at both endz! For 150 quid! Bargain!

Wrong place to ask really. Considering we'll spend 4 figures on a bike frame.

Ask a non-cyclist and they'd demand to know VFM/Why some lights are now approaching 400-500.

LED lights suitable for nightriding are cheap as **** these days!
it's only when people "think" they need the latest ridiculously bright bicycle specific lights it gets pricey as has always been the case.

Can you give me an example? Is a quad cree a 4 light.

I meant something along the lines of the MJ872 Magicshine jobby which uses 4 XPG emitters to give out a big flooded area.

All the big branded lights use the same range of LEDs, if anything they seem to be much slower to adapt to the new emitters which come out due to their smaller batches.

Curiously I'd rather save my money and get a better battery setup than spend more on the light head 🙁

Ask a non-cyclist and they'd demand to know VFM/Why some [s]lights [/s] bikes are now approaching 400-500.

I paid (relatively) a lot for my lights. I don't have that much money to chuck about, but I considered them an investment as I do a lot of night riding.

To be honest, they're like a set of car headlights compared to the cheaper ones I had before. As a result, I don't ride into trees.

Much 😀

GW - Member
LED lights suitable for nightriding are cheap as **** these days!
it's only when people "think" they need the latest ridiculously bright bicycle specific lights it gets pricey as has always been the case

try 2700!

I currently have a poultry 720 on the bars and 220 on my noggin, and I am bemused that when in tight and twisty quick stuff (like deer stalker) I am having to slow down or guess whats ahead.

Hence going for a Troutie, and I'm not convinced my Exposure lights make the most of what they've got.

I'm a Fan of the DX lights but I have to admit their durability, weather proofing and the quality of the lighting they provide is not a patch on the more expensive lights available....

I just took delivery of a new DX XML Bastid went out for a ride with it and my now Aged P7 bastid both on the bars:
There's no deneying the value offered by the new light, but I would have to say the older P7 model actually has a better beam patern and is less "Hotspot and Halos" than the new one...
And neither are a patch on my mates Exposure, or some of the other Ayup, Lupines and Trouts I've seen people using in the past...

What you pay for is not just a Lumen value, it the quality of the illumination the ligh provides and the durability to deal with the harshness of MTBing, the Bastids are still quite some way behind on this...

Toasty - Member

Can you give me an example? Is a quad cree a 4 light.

I meant something along the lines of the MJ872 Magicshine jobby which uses 4 XPG emitters to give out a big flooded area.

All the big branded lights use the same range of LEDs, if anything they seem to be much slower to adapt to the new emitters which come out due to their smaller batches.

Curiously I'd rather save my money and get a better battery setup than spend more on the light head

My commute takes in a fair bit of off road ,where I would be a bit stuffed if the lights packed in,so I like the reliability and re-charge time for my set .
The saving on fuel/public transport has easily paid back the cost ( and for most of the bikes I have ).

but how good does the light quality need to be?

why can't they put universal battery connectors on the lights so you cam swap head units between manufacturers? that would be really useful

Pieface - Member
but how good does the light quality need to be?

why can't they put universal battery connectors on the lights so you cam swap head units between manufacturers? that would be really useful

As for the terrible inconvenience of repairing a £50 light with a new £2 connector and 1 minute with a soldering iron, oh wow I must go and give Hope 5x the money.

Of course if you are in the middle of nowhere, it's late on a very dark night and you're on a solo ride, I'm sure there'll be no problem doing such a repair!

As for the terrible inconvenience of repairing a £50 light with a new £2 connector and 1 minute with a soldering iron, oh wow I must go and give Hope 5x the money.

Yep, it's dead easy to rewire your lights, especially in the middle of a night ride or a 24 hour race (the favourite time of the buggers to die: fact).

*High fives the cheesy one*

I think saying DX lights are good value whereas trout/exposure arent is silly. They offer different products. One is a budget choice and the other is the super-bells-and-whistles choice.

At the minute I ride with DX lights simply because its all I can afford. If they last a year I'm happy because it costs less than £50 to replace it.

In the future when I have a bit more money i'll probably go for exposure simply because they have the integrated battery pack, waterproofing and good warranty/after sales. If troutie lights had integrated battery packs, for me, they would be more enticing.

I can only say both of you deserve it for rely on a single light TBH (no backup of any sort).

Those that buy DX etc, do so because they are either dipping their toe in the night riding scene, or they simply cant justify the cost.

Hmmmm, my initial response was going to be bollox, but then I spotted the word [i]justify[/i] which I first interpreted as [i]afford[/i], anyway....

I'm neither dipping my toes in night riding (been doing it since 1997) nor unable to afford (justify) the cost but I have chosen to go with a Magicshine light.

Someone mentioned about these lights only lasting 2 years, well going by some of the prices of other lights I could get 6 (or more) years riding before I've paid more by changing every two years, but will have benefitted from any technology changes occuring during that time. In fact changing every year wouldn't be troublesome at these prices.

I think LED development (still early days for this stuff) and the agility of the likes of DX to bring new product to market certainly makes it difficult for me to justify buying expensive lights and that's not based on cost.

but how good does the light quality need to be?

All depends on the application:
-Commuting along lit streets you don't need much output it's more about being safe and visible to cars
-On dark unlit roads you'll want more light and a better spread, whilest at the same time trying not to blind other road users.
-For pelting through the woods in pitch blackness, you want powerful lights yes, but you don't want "hotspots" or focused areas of very high intensity which simply glare off of trees and blind you, nor do you want rapid drop off in lighting forcing your eyes to adjust between a well illuminated centre reigion and a poorly lit peripheral area.
-You may well require a helmet light for Night time MTBing to ensure you always have lighting orientated inline with your head (as you will often find the bars pointing elsewhere), again you want a good non-glaring pool of light, and as low a mass as practicable (you have to carry this thing on your head).

why can't they put universal battery connectors on the lights so you cam swap head units between manufacturers? that would be really useful

Connectors and adaptors are out there for those willing to loko/do a bit of DIY but honestly are you expecting companies to design themselves ou of a sale? Get real!

Correct me if I'm wrong here but doesn't Trout allow you to select your own battery/connector if you want?

z1ppy, amazing insight there, were you hiding in the bushes on my last night ride? Alternatively, are you God?

Correct me if I'm wrong here but doesn't Trout allow you to select your own battery/connector if you want?

You sir are correct if you have a battery / charger thats the right voltage and not ready for the landfill then certainly can adapt for any of my lights

So..... OK £300 sounds like a lot for a light. Personally I didn't spend quite that much, somewhere between £400 and £500 has got more a Four4th Holy Moses on the bars and a Four4th Genesis 3 spot on the helmet.

I ride off road in a big group 2 nights a week every week and regard that money as well spent.

Let us not forget how much we spend on the bikes themselves - who here regularly rides on a bike that is part of a collection of bike that is worth £2k or more? So as a proportion of your bike spend it probably isn't so bad. And you can get the DX ones if you want or are unsure about night riding or need some really cheap lights on your carbon bling machine!

And we continue to need people in sheds, garages and small units like trout, four4th, luminous and co to keep pushing the boundaries and ensure the big names don't get too comfortable.

Also - I like buying local! It is leaner, greener and I can take it back when it falls apart - this goes for any product really.

Personally I HATE the cheap lights with a passion. My local trails, deserted for years and years and offering me peace and solitude at night time are now full of bikers. Rivi at night resembles Blackpool now.

Yours,

Mr. Grumpy.

Personally I HATE the cheap lights with a passion.

Ultimately it all depends on what "Value" you attach to extending the available time you can go riding into the night, personally I wouldn't be without my collection of Bastids/torches and I can see the value in a good reliable light system in the £3-400 range if you're riding 2-3 times a week in the dark and doing a few endurance events, it's just a shame my missus can't or else I would buy a trout tommorow.

Totting it up actually I reckon I've spent ~ £140 in the last 2-3 years on lighting/batteries, almost all with DX, so sadly my money has pretty much all gone East, I could have had a Joystick for that... Hmmmm, as it is I've got 3 cheap lights that all work, but I know there's better (in terms of function and build quality) available.

Out of interest is there a [I]"night riding scene"[/I] or is just another way of saying "Riding bikes in the dark, and Spooking Doggers"?

Mr A, nope was out riding in the rain for the 1st time this year (as in 1st rain we've seen, not been hiding from it) with my cheap far-east made torch which worked fine through-out . You more than welcome to worship me as god, but I don't believe in god, so wouldn't feel neglected if you did't believe in me.

You want to find fault in them, so you will.
I found fault in my 1st and only £500 light, lots of faults actually, so much so the manufacturer decided he din't want to warrentee it any more.
Yes the DX lights can and do fail, no one says otherwise, but normally you get lots of warning. Any light can fail out in the field not just DX one's, again I've seen this and happily lent them a spare DX torch I carry.

As be cookess, I've bought 2 'normal' P7 torches, one MS P7 bike light, and an XML bike light from Smudge, over the last 3-4 years.
All of them still work, though the MS P7 needed a new connector, and battery protection circuit, hardly the end of the world.
Still hasn't cost me what a Hope LED light would have cost & I have spares to lend out, to those Hope users suffering issues...

a good reliable light system in the £3-400 range if you're riding 2-3 times a week in the dark and doing a few endurance events

This is the kind of statement I'm not sure I understand\buy into as the 'cheap' ones can be used 2-3 times a week and at endurance events.

Also:

but I know there's better (in terms of function and build quality) available.

Ok, build quality, the more expensive ones may be better, doesn't mean the 'cheap' ones aren't adequate. And function wise I'm not sure what I need more than hi\lo\flash\off; actually I'd like to drop the flash mode and have the ability to switch between hi\li without cycling through all the modes, bugger better spend more money..

Cookeaa - the above not aimed at you, it's just you wrote alot what others say.

Yep, it's dead easy to rewire your lights, especially in the middle of a night ride or a 24 hour race (the favourite time of the buggers to die: fact).

That happened to a <big name light, £300+> I borrowed for D2D within a minute of my first lap.

My Bastids have been excellent and reliable, even in the wet - had to fix 1 battery pack but it was my own fault, I knew the limits of the waterproofing and ignored it.. As have my Lumi halogens. But my Magicshine HID fell apart after one (quite high speed) off. It was that that convinced me to go LED (with a Night Lightning iBLAAST II) head - reasonably pricey, but gives a better light than the DX. Too good for me really.

I think all it proves is that sometimes lucks with you, sometimes not.

OI!! Mr Grumpy! Fancy coming out on a night ride next week then? With me and my suitably expensive lights?

My local trails, deserted for years and years and offering me peace and solitude at night time are now full of bikers

You weren't complaining last week when the gaggle of female bikers came past!

Again you are not taking into account the big benefits for cyclist who use there bikes a lot. And possibly being a little hypocritical if you are car driver?
ALSO
"How to count gears. Each chain wheel at the front is equal to 2 at the back ie it is twice the distance apart. If you have 1 cog on the front and 9 on the back then you only have 9 gears?
If you put another cog on the front then that gives you an extra 2 gears thats why when you change down at the front (2 gears) you change up at the back 1 gear total gear change 1 gear? Add another gear at the front you have another 2 gears. Therefore 9 + 2 + 2 equals 13 on a so called 27 geared bike. Removing 1 gear at the back obviously cannot be removing 3 gears????"

Wow , that's amazing , really amazing , it's also bollox .

I manage fine off road with one helmet mounted l and m Stella 120

I don't think anyone's saying that "big name" lights don't fail. I gave two examples in my first post. But that was after 3 years of week in, week out use in all weathers, and the manufacturers sorted them. I can solder after a fashion, but it mostly consists of trying not to melt anything too important as I bodge stuff together. Plus my Hopes now have a brand new battery which is a big bonus, and should extend their lifespan by another couple of years, by which time we'll probably all be riding hoverboards anyway...

Anyway, my experiences are more valid than yours because I'm a riding god, yadda yadda... 😉