[Closed] Are 29ers rubbish in the steep and rough?

275 is what you want assuming you are after a new bike. TBH 275 and 26 are pretty much the same thing. I can ride my 26 bike uphill btw. I don't see many 29 bikes on steep trails or in the Alps and they where never popular with the pro downhillers. All this leads me to believe they are not the best bike for that type of riding

It's not the wheel size it's the geometry. My Codiene was fine, the BMC team and I think the evil riders are on 29ers in the ESC, as was Tracey.

As a rule of thumb you can run the suspension a bit stiffer and use the roll over on the wheels through bumpy bits. It doesn't work for [s]falling[/s] jumping off things so well.

No. From my experience a 29er is brilliant in the steep rough stuff and tech tight twisty stuff too. Neil who's built trails like waterworld at the golfy rides an alpine five 29er. Doesn't seem to slow him down much either

See if you can get a ride on a Specialized Enduro 29er. Then end up wanting one..

Ive always slagged off 29ers and I've never ridden one in anger but I'm just back from switchbacks in Spain, Mike is now riding a 29 at the DH winter place and reckons he's faster and rides better than he's ever done
On a 29er. Mike can make a turd of a bike ride well but for him to speak so glowingly about 29ers there must be something to it.

It's not the wheel size it's the geometry. My Codiene was fine, the BMC team and I think the evil riders are on 29ers in the ESC, as was Tracey.

Exactly. A long slack low 29 will be WAY better than a short steep tall 26 on steep rough technical trails.

To be honest idiotdogbrain, if I could afford a new Enduro 29er I wouldn't be asking this question. 😉 TBH I'm just skulking round the second hand market looking for something on the cheap, and seeing a lot more 'trail' 29ers than 650b enduro sleds in my price range.

So, if I'm 5'10 and used to riding a DH bike with a 63 degree head angle and a 1190 mm wheelbase, what numbers and angles should I be looking for to see if a 29er is head down arse up XC or up for a bit more of the gnarly stuff?

If you can find a second hand banshee prime you would be laughing. Absolute monster truck.

LOLZ

Wouldn't catch me riding anything gay like a 29er especially considering they're only any good for XC racing and everyone knows the wheels will explode even you even think about riding one off the smallest of drop offs! 🙄

Seriously though... This is 2016... I know Enduro riders begging their sponsors to make them 29er versions of their current 650b bikes, as those already on 29ers are gaining time on the rougher and more pedally courses, yet with the right geometry they give nothing away in the steep stuff. I would argue that having more wheel in front of you, giving effectively a shallower angle of attach over any obstacle is a better thing on any steep techy trails, even just the psychological effect of the front wheel being closer to you can make you feel a bit safer. There's good 29ers and bad ones for sure, and given the marketing push has been for 650b cos it's the emperors new cloths, many people dismissed 29ers as XC race bikes or consigned them to history. I've ridden a number of good 650b bikes in the last couple of years, in each case my over riding thoughts were "this is great, but would be even better with bigger wheels on". Now I'm aware I'm not most people, but ride a good 29er and you won't go back to smaller wheels. And I don't mean a Specialized, they're short, quite upright and have tall BB heights for pedalling over stuff. I mean an Evil Following/Wreckoning, Santa Cruz Hightower, Whyte T-129, Transition Smuggler or one of many other slack/long/low 29ers out there that have favoured geometry over wheel size hype.

If you can find a second hand banshee prime you would be laughing. Absolute monster truck.

Exactly. Or a Specialized Enduro or BMC Trailfox or Trek Remedy or Orange Alpine 29 (aka Alpine 5).

Loads of aggressive 29ers have come out in recent months but there aren't many that have been around long enough for you to get one cheap secondhand - I think the list above is most of them. Bear in mind that many will take an angle adjust headset and/or offset shock bushings if you want to slacken/lower them further.

Basically you want head angle below 68 deg, wheelbase close to 1200mm, BB height sub 350mm (BB drop >25mm). Ideally HA closer to 66 and BB around 340.

g a DH bike with a 63 degree head angle and a 1190 mm wheelbase, what numbers and angles should I be looking for to see if a 29er is head down arse up XC or up for a bit more of the gnarly stuff?

I'm same height as you. My medium Evil Wreckoning has 65.5 HA (feels like slacker, but you have to steepen the angles a little on bigger wheels by comparison to smaller wheels) with short 430mm stays, yet has an 1185mm wheelbase, and it's not even particularly long for one of the new breed of agressive 29ers! It's some time since I've ridden a full on DH bike, but my 29er "Enduro" bike is way more capable going DH than any of the DH bikes I rode some years back. I appreciate that things have also moved on in DH circles too, but a top notch modern Enduro bike is almost as quick DH as a DH bike for many riders especially on the less bumpy courses.

The problem is you're going to have to stick your hand in your pocket, cos proper long/low/slack agressive 29ers haven't been on the market all that long...

The problem is you're going to have to stick your hand in your pocket, cos proper long/low/slack agressive 29ers haven't been on the market all that long...

https://www.orangebikes.co.uk/archive/2013/five-29_frame/

Are 29ers rubbish in the steep and rough

Have we been transported back to 2008?

As mentioned the geo is key, I've got a smuggler 130/115 and it's an incredibly flattering bike to ride in the rough, I'm totally sold on the new generation of 29er's.

So, if I'm 5'10 and used to riding a DH bike with a 63 degree head angle and a 1190 mm wheelbase, what numbers and angles should I be looking for to see if a 29er is head down arse up XC or up for a bit more of the gnarly stuff?

but ride a good 29er and you won't go back to smaller wheels.

Dammit, that's where I went wrong. Rode plenty of good 29ers and still went back 🙁

I still want a new Tallboy for XC however - my bigger 160mm bike will stay as a 650b though, thanks.

[quotebut ride a good 29er and you won't go back to smaller wheels.

As said lots of times, wheel size is not the defining feature of a bike. Posting dung like that is as bad as the 26er denialists attitude to 29ers.

Maybe search out that Soho Bikes video comparing 27.5, 29 & 650B+ at Bike Park Wales to get an idea from people who can definitely ride a bike a bit. Tracey Mosley for one doesn't appear to be held back by 29er wheels much....

Greigb, most of the guys i've rode with for years are now on long travel 29ers. Riding the same trails they rode their DH bikes on but cycling to the top and still bombing back down. Funnily enough they almost all ride Spesh Enduro 29ers. (Some of them were sponsored by the local spesh dealer and get a hefty discount and great service so that's a factor in their choice). Unlike Mr 'expert on paper' up there, they are all good/fast riders and have only praise for the bike. The bike's been out for a few years so there's a good chance you'd pick one up cheap enough.

I'm about to join them in the big wheeled parade, so in a similar position to yourself, also having never ridden a 29er apart from wheelying a HT round a carpark. I'm not opting for an Enduro as it's probably too much bike for my local trails so going for something with a bit less travel (140mm). It's only just been released so probably has all the trendy angles and measurements but tbh, i've no idea what they are. 😆

29ers can handle exceptionally well on the downs and no wheel tuck in my experience but a lot is on the the bike and design, my old 120 fr/95 r travel Rocky mountain element pretty much destroyed 80% of my times on the downs on bikes like turner rfx Yeti asr 7 Titus super moto not full on dh bikes but 160/160 coil spring g travel capable bikes.

The Rocky has been replaced by a Yeti sb95 and the only place that is not quicker is one long road climb into and equally long firetrack climb followed by a single track climb and it is only 30 seconds of that.

Partner has just got a orange 29 er and at 5 ft 3 has struggled with getting it set up correctly but is flying downhill.

Only place we have struggled is on the ups in tight switchback/ corners but that is as much the length of the bikes as the wheels size.

So try a couple of bikes and then decide.

The only -ve about 29ers is that they are not so great at jumping

If getting lots of air is what makes it fun for you, go 650b if not there are some great 29ers out there

I don't see many 29 bikes on steep trails or in the Alps and they where never popular with the pro downhillers. All this leads me to believe they are not the best bike for that type of riding

You spout so much rubbish on here. 🙄

Jared Graves appears to have chosen the 135mm Stumpjumper for this weekends enduro in La Thuile, Nico Lau and Greg Callahan also opting for big wheels, Tracey Mosely seems to do ok on them and there are others opting for them. That said, despite being firmly in the 29er camp, I think it still boils down to personal preference as to whether you prefer big or small wheels. If you're just riding for fun then the fact that a 29er might be a little faster over rough ground is irrelevant isn't it? The bikes can certainly handle what you're looking for but probably worth having a ride on one first before going all in on the second hand stuff.

However, if you are looking in the second hand market for a 29er that was a little ahead of the rest geometry wise so you can find the frames at a good price then the Banshee Prime is worth a look. They're built like a brick outhouse and, in my opinion, ride well. Mine was quite happy being bashed round the Chatel bike park a couple of weeks back.

My SC tallboy excels in steep rough stuff.. just steamrollers through things.. its got more balls than I have 😯

geometry is key

my XTC Advanced 29'er had a somewhat frightening 71.5 HA and short stays

I put a Works Components 1.5 degree headset in there and knocked the HA back to 70 degrees - which also lowered the BBH and steepen the SA slightly

The longer front centre is instantly noticeable and lets you sit in the middle of the bike, and run the fork with less compression as you can use the travel without adverse geometry effects

The stock HA and short stays had you sitting too far forward, running fork with higher compression to provide support, but less grip

Its transformed the bike and unlocked its potential.

2017 XTC have new frames with 69 degree HA 😉

Nicolai Geomotron! Best of both worlds.

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/category/bikes/mountain-bikes/full-suspension/product/review-mojo-nicolai-geometron-50373/

Dear Aunt.

I've heard 29ers can't ever turn cornerzzz
Is this true?

Yours

Confused, STW..

DrP

(29ers are great.. great for XC, great for trails etc etc..)

I ride the very trails you are asking about, every week.

Recently moved from a 26FS to a 29FS, my strava times have dropped. The 26 had 160/140 and my 29 is 140/120, but its not one of the new breed - just a Camber Evo which I've stretched the Pike on from 120 to 140.

Good wheels and decent tyres are essential though, IMO.

And as frood said, the trails were built by 29er boys 🙂

A riding mate has a Nukeproof Mega 290 and a couple of others have YT Jeffsy's - they all seem more than competent

I've been running 29ers for about 5 years now. The whole 120mm 29er is the same as 140mm 26er is an exceptionally crude comparison. So much so I don't think its really very useful.

These days, 29ers vary in ride quality and intended use as much as 26ers ever did. The same rules apply - test ride and punch
your poison.

Wheels do need special attention though, especially if you ride on the harder side of things. The simple fact is that a 29er wheel is a bigger, more flexible structure. You need to up rate the construction of its materials ( including tougher tyres) to get comparable strength and durability of a smaller, more easily braced 26er wheel. Either way, that translates to more weight and/or cost.

My stumpy evo 29er rocks down the golfy, lakes, everywhere. It carries so much speed, but make sure you get a good stiff set of wheels. All in after 6 months searching, I have paid about £2500 for my carbon 2014 stumpy, with cross max XL wheels new hans dampf/ magic marys, pedals, charge saddle etc. Alloy comp versions go for between £1200-1700, carbon from £1900+. Lots of bike for the money. Recommend

and i was just starting to get attached to my new kitten.

but, we all know the rules, so i'll have to drown it.

you guys are cruel.

I'm not sure you need tougher tyres on a 29, just proportionally heavier ones. If anything bigger wheels have a shallower angle of attack so are less likely to pinch on square edges. Wheel strength/stiffness is clearly an issue.

I also ride a 29er on the golfy/inners trails all the time, it's superb on the steep. I ride a Smuggler and the wheelbase is 1280mm, it was pretty much the longest bike on the uplift trailer when I last did it. The relatively short rear travel does start becoming apparent on the rougher DH trails and 29" wheels do feel different to 26". Get a demo, something like the new nukeproof mega 29 will probably melt your face.

The only -ve about 29ers is that they are not so great at jumping

eh?

Crikey, can of worms! 🙂

The best suggestion I can make is to borrow a modern full suss 29er for a weekend. I tested a Stumpy 29er and once I got over the whole wheelsize thing, I was blown away at just how capable the thing was. So much was counter-intuitive, the bars felt very tall and the static geometry looked a teeny bit steep, but once out on the trails I quickly learned that climbing wasn't compromised in any way compared to the 26er Camber I was used to and that my Stumpjumper was incredibly composed on the descents.

The Stumpy itself is very well designed, the geometry makes for a supremely and delicately balanced bike. It's very neutral and exploitable, even for a complete Beadlehands at the helm (me).

The nu-skool short to mid travel 29ers make a compelling case for themselves.

Crikey, can of worms! 🙂

I think they have been historically not bothered with in a section of the sport where sometimes a 24" rear was used for greater strength.

These days, particularly with wide axle standards and things, there's no reason you can't get adequate strength from a 29er, and it should roll over things better so like for like it should be better.

Unfortunately it's harder to avoid a bigger wheel hitting the seat tube with longer suspension travel, and to keep the bars at a sensible height, hence shorter travel compromises.

I hope they ride well as I'm in the process of building up a 29er hardatail which I don't intend to let hold me back down stuff like that (even though my big 26er bike will still be the go to option for that sort of riding).

Took my Whyte 29er to Flyup 471- had a blast on the Black and Red. Met a few riders and rode with them too, even being faster than quite a few on 160-170mm 650b bikes. We got chatting at the bottom about wheel size. They didn't believe me when I said i'd been riding my 29er, I had to show them the reading on the tyre!

29ers have come a long way and, as with any bike, it comes down to the geometry. You'll get short, steep and nervous bikes in any wheel size. Likewise, you can get slack, long, low enduro bikes in any wheel size. I wouldn't let terrain dictate what wheel size to get. Just go and test ride some and pick what works for you.

Nope they're rubbish everywhere else too 😆

Some are rubbish in the steep and rough, others are surprisingly good. Really depends on the bike.

Even withg a good one, your 650b enduro pals will still pull away from you on really rugged ground, but you'll probably surprise them on a few of the trails at Inners.

What's your budget anyway?

The most succesful enduro race bike of all time is a 29er. The best of the crop- your enduros, five 29s, mega 290s, trailfoxes, remedies and the like- are outright weapons. (no doubt others too but these are the ones I've tried and could recommend to check out)

I'm kind of a knobber, but... It's not the "rolling over things easier" that makes it work for me, not in the way people think, with individual rocks or roots or whatever. But over a stage, it all adds up to less fatigue and more composure which means going faster at the end.

kimbers - Member

The only -ve about 29ers is that they are not so great at jumping

If getting lots of air is what makes it fun for you,

This was me. Might still be me but i wont know for a few weeks.

I've seen a few promo videos of guys hitting jumps on big wheelers and they do seem to suck a bit off the height/distance and look a bit more difficult to throw about in the air. That and the fear of the wheels exploding of course. Rest assured i'll be testing the jumping abilities for myself.

Euro - Member

I've seen a few promo videos of guys hitting jumps on big wheelers and they do seem to suck a bit off the height/distance and look a bit more difficult to throw about in the air. That and the fear of the wheels exploding of course. Rest assured i'll be testing the jumping abilities for myself

I've noticed that but always thought they were holding back for the sake of the kittens 8)

Last time I was at BPW we had 26, 250 and 29 with travel from 120 to 160 and a bike age range of 5 years.

The best riders were the fastest, everyone had fun

My Process 111 is constantly trying to get me to jump off things, it's probably the best balanced bike in the air (and on the ground) I've owned.

I've been riding a enduro 29 for the last few months, it's been my first 29er and has totally sold me on them. Maybe not as fun but it's much quicker. I need to get around to selling it now my larger replacement is here.

Cheers for all the replies, certainly made for interesting reading. I think my question of will a short travel, short and steep 29er from 3-4 years ago be DH capable because of its larger wheels, can be answered with a no.

So for that sort of price, I'm thinking I might be better off with a long slack hardtail, of any wheelsize. If I take the plunge and dig deep into my pockets, I'd probably go 160mm, in which case it would be a case of try a 650b and a 29er. The problem being that any 160mm on my price range comea in a box from Deutschland! 8)

[img] [/img]

😆

My Commencal Meta AM29 was a modern type geometry and absolutely demolished trails, you didn't worry about line, or rocks, it just carved through them.

You spout so much rubbish on here

Why thank you. I didn't see a single 29er in 3 weeks in Chamonix and Verbier last year and that included xc-ers riding up the hill. Now thats not scientific of course as maybe there where bikes there I didn't see but Insaw plenty of other riders. I'll be off again soon amd I'll keep an eye out.

If 29ers where good on steep fast trails we'd see more of them at UCi DH.

As for guides / tour operators etc often get free / heavily discounted bikes so what they are riding is irrelevant to me.

My Commencal Meta AM29 was a modern type geometry and absolutely demolished trails, you didn't worry about line, or rocks, it just carved through them.

I do wonder whats the point of that though ? I rode my hardtail mostly in Surrey Hills to make the trails more interesting/difficult as my Covert FS did the same, made the trails I liked too easy

OP I don't think anyone posted this, worth a watch for a variety of reasons 8)

same for me... stayed two times in chamonix last year and didnt see
any 29er on the trails..

zero g had a few in the shop so...

If 29ers where good on steep fast trails we'd see more of them at UCi DH.

Well my Deutschland 29er was ace at Alpe d' Huez last week. Most people didn't realise it was 29inch until lined up against the smaller wheeled bikes. Once I got my head around the switchbacks it was awesome. Really wouldn't swap it for anything else. 160mm up front 140mm rear. I genuinely fell in love with it all over again it was brilliant fun.

My 5 29 is an absolute weapon and better than any other bike I've had when it gets steep and rough. It's like an excited puppy pulling at the lead.

Why thank you. I didn't see a single 29er in 3 weeks in Chamonix and Verbier last year and that included xc-ers riding up the hill. Now thats not scientific of course as maybe there where bikes there I didn't see but Insaw plenty of other riders. I'll be off again soon amd I'll keep an eye out.

I bet you did, they're not that easy to tell apart from 27.5 bikes - which incidentally do not feel identical to 26 bikes but somewhere in between 26 and 29 (what a surprise!)

If 29ers where good on steep fast trails we'd see more of them at UCi DH

There are two limitations with 29 for downhill - getting low enough handlebar height and getting low enough saddle height or short enough chainstay length. Both of those are due to the packaging of 200mm+ of suspension and a larger wheel. Also it is more expensive to make a bigger wheel strong and light, so it's less accessible and that in turn means there are almost no dual ply 29 tyres.

As soon as you shorter the travel to <160mm the packaging gets much easier, hence the rising popularity of both trail and enduro 29ers, especially when racing the bigger steeper rougher courses on the EWS etc.

FYI my bikes have 16", 20", 26" and 27.5" wheels, I don't even own a 29"! It isn't rocket science to realise what's good about them though...

jambalaya - If 29ers where good on steep fast trails we'd see more of them at UCi DH.

As for guides / tour operators etc often get free / heavily discounted bikes so what they are riding is irrelevant to me.

So people who are paid and get free stuff to race DH would use 29ers if they were any good but people who are paid and get free stuff to guide using 29ers are irrelevant / biased?

Does not compute.

Greetings! I ride an older Lenz Lunchbox set up with 5" of travel. I've ridden it on the gnarliest trails around (including bonafide downhill trails) and I can safely say that my own skill level is certainly the limiting factor rather than the bike. Not as good for jump lines, but for technical rocky trails with drops I wouldn't consider riding anything else.

greigb- I've actually given some thought to selling the frame to upgrade to the newest iteration., IF you've any interest drop me a line. Good luck with your search!

29ers are so rubbish in the steep and rough that Trek just replaced their Slash long travel 26 and then 27.5 bike with this:

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/trek-slash-29-first-look-2016.html

Good to see a bike that seems to be rider-inspired rather than marketing led (aside from all the silly acronyms & shit).

When I first got a FS 29er a couple of years ago I predicted a resurgence in the wheel size for gnarly riding as geometry got sorted out.

Sometimes it's hard being so right.

Chiefgrooveguru, that there Trek Slash 29 is a beauty ...straight on the "want" list 😉

That Trek is going to be hilariously expensive. A borderline 5 figure bike.

And I expect in reality no faster for the Average Joe racer.

That Trek is going to be hilariously expensive. A borderline 5 figure bike.

And I expect in reality no faster for the Average Joe racer.

If it kicks off more pointless wheelsize arguments then it's in trouble

I [i]need[/i] that Trek. Looks like exactly what happens when you take your awesome 29er trailbike, win All The Enduro World Serieses with it, and then apply the lessons from that, really. 29 Ain't Dead 😆

Hob Nob - Member

That Trek is going to be hilariously expensive. A borderline 5 figure bike.

The carbon Remedy 29 was RRP £5500, the 9.8 looks a pretty similar beast. Obviously we've ****ed the pound since then and no telling what that'll do to prices by the time it arrives...

And it's a bit too short, but it's the thought that counts, eh?

Too short? 1219mm long and 445mm of reach for the 18.5 isn't short. Without looking up all the numbers, that's going to make it one of the biggest mass market bikes out there surely, if not the biggest? Shorter than a Pole or Geometron, longer than a Mega 290, quite a bit bigger than a trailfox (which isn't too short)

chakaping - And it's a bit too short, but it's the thought that counts, eh?

Northwind - Too short? 1219mm long and 445mm of reach for the 18.5 isn't short.

445mm reach isn't exactly pushing the boundaries for a large. That's most mediums these days.

Seems like an odd bike to me, but hey, i'm happy on my medium sized wheels. I don't go any slower than the big ones I tried 🙂

You're starting to sound like me.

Well I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek, [b]but [/b]I'd need the 16.5in to get the saddle low enough - which only offers a reach of 430mm in low position.

I like 460mm reach.

Therefore, too short.

🙂

PS. Looks like a Trek.

chakaping - Member

Well I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I'd need the 16.5in to get the saddle low enough - which only offers a reach of 430mm in low position. I like 460mm reach.

Nobody outwith the niches is ever going to put 460mm of reach on a small frame imo. (I'm making a slight assumption here that this is an XS, S, M, L. Partly because they signed Katy Winton, so they need a teeny tiny frame. Nobody understands Trek sizing though, I'm not even completely sure what size my Remedy is)

It's a fair point though, seat tubes need to be getting shorter for dropper posts... I thought the 170mm reverb would put an end to the dark age of Stupid Seattube Masts.

I think the 18.5 is the large.

Similar reach and seat tube proportions to YT bikes actually. I'm sure plenty will be happy on these but they're playing it a bit safe IMO.

It's hard to tell with Trek tbh but 20.5 isn't usually their ideal of an XL. The Slash 27.5 was 15.5, 17.5, 18.5, 19.5, 21.5 and the Remedy 29 was 15.5, 17.5, 19, 21, 23 (or 15.5in, 16.5, 18, 20 and 22, depending on how they measured it. And I think there's one year where they called the 4th size a 19.5, just to make things clearer...)

They don't really do the S/M/L thing so much I think but for me that 18.5 would be the one for me and I'm basically an IS Medium- 5'10, appropriate arms and legs that start in the middle and go all the way down to the ground.

[i]I didn't see a single 29er in 3 weeks in Chamonix and Verbier last year and that included xc-ers riding up the hill. Now thats not scientific of course as maybe there where bikes there I didn't see but Insaw plenty of other riders. I'll be off again soon amd I'll keep an eye out./I]

Maybe not, but come up to the Tweed Valley (where the OP rides) and there are loads of them, and the boys/girls that ride them are amongst the quickest here.

Could also be that those in the Alps are behind the times?

Could also be that those in the Alps are behind the times?

Need to make some tape measures that make reach/TT a magic number

Jumps, steep, rough, seems like 29 is just fine for some

[url= http://www.pinkbike.com/news/bryn-atkinson-29er-video-2016.html ]http://www.pinkbike.com/news/bryn-atkinson-29er-video-2016.html[/url]

The Slash shares many of the same frame features as the recently announced Remedy 29.5 and Fuel EX, including the Straight Shot downtube and the Knock Block system, which relies on a stop chip located on the top tube that works with a keyed headset top cap to prevents the fork from turning too far

I was in verbier on a orange five29 this time last year. Love it, though at 6'4" is the first bike I've had that fits me properly. Had a stunning ride on ityesterday eve, one of those ones where everything falls into place, and that makes you wonder if you are secretly actually a riding god and you hadnt noticed. I'm still kinda beaming from that.

That new Trek looks amazing in the flesh...

Tracey Moseley seems to "do alright" in the steep and rough stuff... 😆

Commencal meta 29er owner here and I'll pretty much just agree- the overall design of the bike is going to be far more important than the wheel size.

Personally I would really like the new cotic rocket max. Not really enough difference to justify it though!