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But surely the reason this thread exists is that Ti bikes have been sold as indestructible and bikes for life, which many are , and some aren’t.
I've honestly never seen a brand trotting out this line. Mostly it seems to be an internet trope come conspiracy theory that people just repeat blithely as if it's some sort of truth. My guess is that it started as a quotable pithy phrase in some MBUK review back in the last century and has taken on a life of its own.
I have a Ti 456 evo, that I've owned new since 2013.
It was meant to be my winter bike as I have a full bouncer for summer duties, although the Ti gets used a lot more.
Mostly cross country with a little wheels in the air stuff at trail centres and I haven't noticed any cracks (although I don't go looking for them).
It has been laid up for 2 weeks though, as I noticed that the forks have hydo-locked.
I have cracked an old steel mtb frame through the head tube.
But surely the reason this thread exists is that Ti bikes have been sold as indestructible and bikes for life, which many are , and some aren’t.
I’ve honestly never seen a brand trotting out this line. Mostly it seems to be an internet trope come conspiracy theory that people just repeat blithely as if it’s some sort of truth. My guess is that it started as a quotable pithy phrase in some MBUK review back in the last century and has taken on a life of its own.
Probably right. That was always the view I had about ti frames being for life - basically steel properties but resistant to rust - but unsure how/why I believed it.
I've owned aluminium, steel, carbon and titanium. Only frame I've broke was titanium: crack extending from a cable routing port on a Titus/Planet X frame after 3 years of light use. I'm now back on steel.
I had some small concerns when I bought my first (only) Ti bike. The 10 year warranty helped me press buy. I thought if it breaks after that, it would be a decent life. But it'll be 5 years old this August, still feels newish to me, somehow another 5 years doesn't seem like enough! Fingers crossed for more than that.
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I've got steel bikes 12, 11, 25, 37 years old and a carbon 2 year old. all fine. The 25yo had a flared headtube repaired 20 years ago.
I had a 30 year old skip find as a station bike for a year that was so rusty inside it sounded like a rain stick. that broke. Not sure if 30 year old skip find station bikes made of Ti are a thing!
i've had a PlanetX/Serotta road bike for the last 8 years, and it's been fine.
Only simple pootles around country lanes of course.
I've had a Signal Ti five years. I've ridden it two to three times a week every week and its still fine.
I've said this before regarding titanium - if you look at the requirements for vacuum/argon purge chambers for aerospace welding of titanium there's no chance that traditional back purging style of steel frame welds will suffice. There was a ti frame a few years ago that had "lovely coloured ti welds" that was clearly contaminated.
Tldr - I wouldn't have a titanium frame.
Owned a few over the years.
None of them broke during my ownership.
I don’t tend to keep bikes for as long as most people do though and what happened to them after my ownership is anyone’s guess.
I've had 3 MTBs.
One was (really) a little too small and i cracked it at the seat tube slot after about 4 years (i was racing a *lot* back then). Also found that i'd bent the seat pin. That was in about 1997 or 8.
I still have it's replacement, raced that as a second bike until 2001 or 2, then my ex raced it until 2010 or 11 when we both went carbon. I also have a team issue Ti which i picked up at the same time as the warranty frame. That was raced until 2003/4 and ridden regularly until 2010/11, so pretty much 15 years. Neither of them are cracked, the painted one shows some signs of age! The raw Ti is still almost good as new. Peaked at slightly under 100 kilos when riding that.
I’ve said this before regarding titanium – if you look at the requirements for vacuum/argon purge chambers for aerospace welding of titanium there’s no chance that traditional back purging style of steel frame welds will suffice.
Have only seen two manufacturers of Ti frames using proper purge chambers, and using them properly.
I've got to admit, I always thought the 'bike for life' aspect of Ti was that they didn't need paint and still didn't rust, rather than having 'indestructible' qualities to do with how strong they were. Y'know. an afternoon with the Scotch Brite, and they'd look as good as new.
Tldr – I wouldn’t have a titanium frame.
While I know what you mean, I think I wouldn't buy a Ti frame from AliExpress, but from a manufacturer who specialises and has been going for years, I wouldn't have an issue
Owned three - hint is in the username. One stolen, two still going strong (Enigma fixed road and Charge cross bike). I am not heavy and easy on bikes. The fixed sees more strain than a geared bike, and I'm the third owner in its 10 year life. If I ever buy a FS, it will be a Ti frame. BTW the first was a Merlin Cyrene road bike with full laser etching. Stolen. If I ever see another for sale in a 56, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
I’ve said this before regarding titanium – if you look at the requirements for vacuum/argon purge chambers for aerospace welding of titanium there’s no chance that traditional back purging style of steel frame welds will suffice.
It seems to suffice based on the reputation US builder's frames have but there may be something in this point about why mass-produced Ti has failed (sorry) to maintain the rep that Ti had back when Merlin and Moots were the main options.
If we think this way about Ti (aerospace practice Vs bike industry contract-manufactured averages) we should have a think about carbon in that way too.
Anyone owned Ti bike and NOT broke it YET.
Maybe a little cynical…
Pickenflick, 6 years old, 28000 kms, been battered mostly offroad in its life, still going strong.
On One Vandal, frame bought second hand late last year, ridden a fair bit since, but not enough to tell how long-lasting and robust it is (rides lovely though)
Cotic Soda certainly felt like it would’ve if I’d kept it longer than a few months.
I rode a previously repaired Cotic Soda for 4 years, including many black sections of trails and running longer-travel forks than it was designed for - initially a 150mm Rockshox Revelation then a 160mm Bos Deville that came off another of my bikes. Frame still intact and my son still rides it.
When I rode it - weighed between 12.5 stones and 14.5 stones, but my son only weights about 60kg at 178cm.
I’ve honestly never seen a brand trotting out this line. Mostly it seems to be an internet trope come conspiracy theory that people just repeat blithely as if it’s some sort of truth. My guess is that it started as a quotable pithy phrase in some MBUK review back in the last century and has taken on a life of its own.
If you type 'titanium bike frames lifetime warranty' into google you'll find plenty of manufacturers offering 'lifetime' warranties.
Naturally there are a bunch of caveats, and once they are taken into account then it's not a lifetime warranty, but then this lifetime warranty thing is a marketing exercise. And the implication of a lifetime warranty is it will last you the rest of your life (if you don't read the small print).
If you type ‘[s]titanium[/s] bike frames lifetime warranty’ into google you’ll find plenty of manufacturers offering ‘lifetime’ warranties.
FTFY
I've still got an original Lynskey Ti-456 from 2008. It must've done thousands of miles round Wales and my local trails. It doesn't ridden as much these days as bought an Anthem 5-6 years ago, but it's still going and gets used mostly in the winter time.
This might be useful here. I got a quote back from Enigma to repair my 456. It's cracked on the seat tube starting from the slot and running just above the top tube weld almost round to a chainstay. It's an awkward repair which would take 5 hours and cost £600. Repairable but not financially effective.
And the implication of a lifetime warranty is it will last you the rest of your life (if you don’t read the small print)
It's Product Lifetime not your lifetime, it's a warranty related to the product so it seems logical to read the warranty term that way? Don't get me wrong, I do think lifetime warranties are vague because it's hard to define a realistic product lifespan but if anything that's good for the customer - if the manufacturer can't match up your use (and hasn't stated that you should record it.. because that would be nuts) and the expected product lifespan/cycles to fatigue then you have a valid cause for claim imho.
It’s Product Lifetime not your lifetime, it’s a warranty related to the product so it seems logical to read the warranty term that way?
So if you win a lifetime supply of toothpaste on an 80s gameshow you should expect one tube because it relates to the expected lifetime of a tube of toothpaste?
Lifetime anything always implies the lifetime of the user. Or at least it did until the marketing department got hold of it.
Lifetime was clearly never meant to apply to products because how do you decide a product is dead? 'Not economical to repair' is the usual language used to describe a product as dead but if we are talking about warranties then that doesn't really apply as it shouldn't be costing the end user anything. Therefore a product with a lifetime warranty should never be declared dead.
I have frames that are over 50 years old still bearing my weight and getting me from A to B. Since the potential lifetime of a frame is clearly measurable in decades rather than years then manufacturers trying to say that your frame had a good innings after 5 years is a bit disingenuous.
It was a stupid marketing ploy that got out of hand and has created a lot of bad feeling among consumers.
But it has little to do with thread as it relates to all frame materials and many, many other products.
hard tail - 3,500 miles - 3/4 years. No.
gravel - 650 miles - a year. No.
But it has little to do with thread as it relates to all frame materials and many, many other products.
We're going in circles now.
On the last page someone pointed out that this thread exists because ti bikes are often marketed as 'forever bikes' and people are very disappointed to find that the frame they planned to pass on to their kids snapped after 5 years and it wasn't covered by the 'lifetime' warranty.
When that happens they complain loudly about it to their friends and on forums.
Hence we hear a lot about ti frames snapping, even if it's probably to be expected.
So if you win a lifetime supply of toothpaste on an 80s gameshow you should expect one tube because it relates to the expected lifetime of a tube of toothpaste?
'a lifetime supply' : )
Lifetime anything always implies the lifetime of the user
While I agree it's vague about the actual time span it means without a time limit for claims, it almost always says something like 'guaranteed against defects in materials and workmanship for the life of the product' if you read the (usually quite short) basic terms. Fatigue, corrosion etc will kill a frame eventually so that's when it dies.
Since the potential lifetime of a frame is clearly measurable in decades rather than years then manufacturers trying to say that your frame had a good innings after 5 years is a bit disingenuous.
Design and materials, intended use and load X cycles. A good lifespan maybe 5 or 25 years. There should be something related to this in a frameset or complete bike owner's manual.
It was way back in the mists of time, maybe more than 25 years ago when Litespeed ran a bunch of magazine (remember them) ads for their Ti road frames claiming they'd be the last frame you'd need to buy, last a lifetime etc... which coincided with the period when they experimented with some headtube shaping that many customers found cracked and failed and yet also many found were refused warranty repair... which created a lot of rap beef at the time and opened the eyes to many of the reality of lifetime claims. These days it would take a measure of naivety to think that just because somethings covered by a lifetime warranty that the product is in any way going to last a lifetime, it just means when it breaks they 'might' replace it. As has been said many times before, good Ti tube joining is a labour intensive process - man hours cost a lot of money these days, if you cut corners then integrity suffers. The best Ti builders charge for this and shouldn't offer to many concerns. so just choose the pricing level you want to come in at vs risk... and for budget Ti maybe go for steel instead.
Since I started this thread I have purchased a plastic gravel bike....... I no longer want another Ti bike.
Part of the 'for life' bit probably comes from its fatigue properties. Like steel ti is reported to have a lower limit, at stresses below that limit it will not fatigue. This isn't the case for aluminium and other materials which always fatigue. So you might think a well designed and made ti bike would never crack.
I guess in reality it is much more difficult to work than steel and minor defects are much more likely and this means a perfect Ti frame that doesn't fatigue is not as common as we think it should be.
the implication of a lifetime warranty is it will last you the rest of your life
Nah... it means that if it fails inside its expected usage because of manufacturing defects... then you'll be sorted.
All sort of things can prevent your frame lasting as long as you can reasonably expect, never mind until you die, without the failure being due to defects. Bike frames aren't indestructible, and I don't know of any warranty from any manufacturer that claims their frames are.
Fatigue, corrosion etc will kill a frame eventually so that’s when it dies.
Well, yes.
But titanium manufacturers are often at pains to point out that corrosion and fatigue aren't an issue with titanium frames.
Durability – An exceptionally high fatigue-to-strength ratio means that a properly engineered Titanium frame can last a lifetime - literally.
Don't think of a Ti bike as a luxury purchase, think of it as more of a long-term investment. If you buy Ti, it can truly be your lifetime riding companion.
https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/blog/why-you-should-buy-titanium/
And in theory, for a properly designed and built ti frame, fatigue shouldn't be an issue. In theory.
To be fair, Ribble only offer a 3 year warranty on their frames which I think is reasonable. If it hasn't broken in 3 years it probably won't. Keep the talk of 'lifetimes' in the marketing pages where it belongs.
Nah… it means that if it fails inside its expected usage because of manufacturing defects… then you’ll be sorted.
Yes, and now that we've all heard the stories of people's titanium frames snapping after 5 years and there being no warranty, we know that.
I think people who are now claiming that they always knew lifetime doesn't mean your lifetime are using their 20/20 hindsight to great effect.
Titanium manufacturers have often stressed that their bikes should last forever. Combine that with a 'Lifetime' warranty and it's not really surprising that people expected it to be their lifetime.
Keep the talk of ‘lifetimes’ in the marketing pages where it belongs.
Agreed.
The warrenty period on the Ti frame I had was 4 years.
Not much for a expensive frame really.
Had mine 3+ years and had no issues...
Had 2. Broke none. loved 1
Any Ti frame built properly should last a life time. Failures tend to come from poor workmanship (they have to be welded very carefully.
My old Cotic soda weighted 1.6 kg, was a springy bag of joy and survived about 6 years of abusive riding before getting sold for wheel size and geometry reasons. My more recent Kingdom Vendetta weighs a good chunk more which undermines the springy ride characteristics of titanium (but Im sure makes it even more indestructible). All current Ti bikes are overbuilt in my opinion making them less fun to ride than older frames.. but there should be even less concern about braking them.
Since I started this thread I have purchased a plastic gravel bike
so what have you gone for?
LOL, I'm going back on my earlier post about bikes for life. I googled titanium and fatigue and came across all sort of stuff mostly on brands' web sites.
'titanium frames weigh 1.7 to 3 pounds, are designed to last 50-100 years, and due to their ultra-high modulus-of-elasticity (resistance to long-term fatigue), they can ride just like new decades later.'
'Durability – An exceptionally high fatigue-to-strength ratio means that a properly engineered Titanium frame can last a lifetime - literally.' That's Ribble btw, note that they don't define 'ifetime', I guess it could be the lifetime of the frame...
'Our best-selling gravel, adventure and road bikes are built to Mark Reilly’s ground-breaking frame geometry, optimised for comfort and speed. Handbuilt using premium grade titanium for durability and finesse, Reilly frames will last you for decades of rides to come.'
'Compared to other materials, titanium bikes will last you a lifetime. They are known for this, which is why they are more expensive. However it is down to the properties of this magical metal that make it perfect for bike building.'
'A J.Guillem frame is designed to last a lifetime. In fact, it’s designed to last several lifetimes. And we’re so confident in our own high standards of construction, and Titanium’s inherent indestructibility, that we’re prepared to guarantee our frames against defects in materials and workmanship for 100 years.'
Oh, and Van Nicholas uses the line 'ENDLESS DURABILITY', which presumably means they expect their frames to last for ever.
I guess I may be correct and the brands above have simply co-opted some original 'bike for life' trope that pre-dates them. Or they've always done this. But yeah, some titanium bike brands are making some pretty big claims on the longevity side of things. I must admit, I do like the idea of a frame that'll still be going strong in 100 years time, though it won't be much use to me at that point. And who knows if we'll still even have bikes by then...
Lynskey, btw, has a 'limited lifetime warranty', which at least acknowledges that their frames have a limited life, maybe... or maybe not. Anyway, isn't the short answer to this entire thread that some ti frames break and some don't and we'll never know the proportions.
To be fair, at least a 100-year warranty is pretty clear and beyond most people's lifetime. I wonder if the company will still be around in 100 years time though.
Oh, and Van Nicholas uses the line ‘ENDLESS DURABILITY’, which presumably means they expect their frames to last for ever.
I linked to the VN warranty earlier in the thread.
Re durability, imo it's much like carbon, you can build a super strong ti bike but most people who buy ti bikes, want it to be lightweight and soft. I'm not sure you can really choose that, knowingly, and then complain much if it doesn't last a thousand years.
Sure, manufacturers bear responsibility for that- and "lifetime warranty where it's the lifetime of the frame" absolutely IS dishonest and intentionally misleading horseshit, it's like having a warranty that's "? number of years" and you only get to find out the actual number when it breaks. Let's be honest, lots of warranties cover less than the owner probably thinks it does and do their best to hide that or at least make it nonobvious, and you find out when it breaks (and lots of owners never bother to actually find out what the warranty is) Buyers play a big part, in fact it's probably a lot of chicken and egg. There's a basic level of fitness for purpose but after that point, durability and lifespan is an option.
And titanium is an enthusiast's material too, more so than anything else we make bikes out of, so most people buying it should be equipped to make a smart decision. I hope I did, when i got mine, i guess we'll find out if I break it and subsequently whine 🙂
In answer to the OP. Yes, my current van nicholas mk3 tuareg is still going strong. Its predecessors, a 26" mk1 tuareg, and a 26" mk2 tuareg, both failed on their rather beautiful welds. On average they are lasting 6 years or about 12k km of ground-based rooty xc duty.
Chapeau to van nic - they covered both failures on the original lifetime warranty.
Interested in the warranty points made here.
“lifetime warranty where it’s the lifetime of the frame” absolutely IS dishonest and intentionally misleading horseshit
If the warranty terms (on paper and online) say that it's product lifetime, eg 'against defects in materials and manufacturing for the lifetime of the product', that's not intentionally misleading, right? Because if it fails any other way it's open to dispute whatever way you want to read 'lifetime' - did you get all Road Bike Party on your Pinarello Dogma? etc.
If it was a warranty for the lifetime of the owner, usually 'defects in materials and manufacturing for the lifetime of the original owner', eventually things break, usually before the owner. And if it's general fatigue that's broken it rather than a flaw it's open to dispute again. All frames and forks will fatigue or deteriorate in a way. Maybe that fatigue point is what needs to be clearer.
Having said that, the ISO standards for bikes dictate that the brand should explain realistic component lifespans and how use influences that. What no-one can do is put a time frame on it so if most of a brand's frames last a long time and you get an early stage bathtub-type failure on a lightly-used bike (has happened to me on a Ti frame, failed after ~4 months), it's down to the brand and you to work it out. I think that's potentially risky for both brand rep and owner satisfaction. And if a brand can't be consistent it's risky.
As I said before I think lifetime warranties are a problem if the terms aren't clear - if they are there's some RTFM in all this. I'd rather see '7 years no-quibble warranty' or similar, but even then there would have to be a Road Bike Party clause.
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Part of the ‘for life’ bit probably comes from its fatigue properties. Like steel ti is reported to have a lower limit, at stresses below that limit it will not fatigue. This isn’t the case for aluminium and other materials which always fatigue. So you might think a well designed and made ti bike would never crack.
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I think Brant confirmed that although it’s true that titanium products can be made so that they never fatigue, this doesn’t apply to bikes. The wall thickness required would result in a frame too heavy to be desirable. However as we can see above that doesn’t stop bike makers letting the myth persist
^ plus if you make it more thick walled or stiff it'd put more stress on the welds and it's the welded area that fails. And the fatigue limit that gets associated with Ti wouldn't really apply to a welded frame, more to a seamless tube or a spring.
I while ago I took a punt on a bargain Titus el Viajero frame that hadn't been used much (assume its Waltly built). It was the cost of a cheaper new steel frame, but obviously no warranty. I absolutely love how it rides, and it seems to be built nicely and is light but not silly light - a fair chunk less than an equivalent size steel frame. I'm hoping it lasts well and that it can be repaired if I do break it and unlike a tough carbon frame, I don't need to be that careful with knocks and abrasion to the tubes, which does appeal to me a lot. I'm hoping it'll last me a long time, and I might feel differently had I spent £2k on a new frame with warranty.
My current hardtail is a 1997 Airborne Lucky Strike, The only welding it has had was when Vernon Barker added a rear disc mount a few years later. I'm reluctant to say more lest I jinx the old thing.
I more often use a 2019 PX Tempest (Mk3) gravel bike. It's seen a fair bit of abuse but has so far proved robust, comfy and reliable.
I linked to the VN warranty earlier in the thread.
The point I was making was about marketing rather than warranty, though I get that the two, particularly where ti is concerned, aren't entirely separate. Anyway, for me - three ti bikes - the attraction has always been primarily the ride quality allied to light weight, then the cosmetics rather than any perceived 'endless durability' or the idea that I could pass the frame on to my grandchildren, not that I have any.
Surely, anyway, the basic answer to this thread is that yes, clearly some people have 'owned Ti bike and NOT broke it', but equally some ti frames have broken. My experience was that Lynskey - via Ragley - fulfilled their warranty terms and actually, after my incessant whining, went beyond them.
You pays your money and you takes your chances, but at least you know that titanium is generally repairable - as is carbon and steel, though not usually, aluminium.
As far as warranties go, basing them on time rather than mileage/type of mileage is, if you think it through, somewhat illogical. I could buy a frame tomorrow, leave it stood for five years unridden, then crack it on the first ride and it would be out of warranty. Equally someone could put mega-miles on the same frame in 12 months. Go figure.
Or here's a real world one. The late Mike Hall once spent most of a mutual friend's wedding explaining to me that carbon fibre was the best choice for a reliable bike frame as long as it was properly manufactured as it simply wouldn't fatigue. He then chose a carbon frame for his round the world ride, basically an On One Dirty Disco. I'm pretty sure he did the whole trip without breaking the frame.
Coincidentally I own what's basically the same frame and cracked it in two places riding round the Peak District, admittedly in some very unsuitable places and with high miles, but it broke and was repaired and is still limping along. I'm not sure what that tells you other than that you can't really generalise.
I have a Kingdom Vendetta that's not broken yet. But compared to some of the antiques referenced on this thread, its barely out the shop door at 3.5 years old.
Lifetime warranty too, but I don't need to tie myself up in the semantics of what that means. It seems pretty elementary really.
Lifetime warranty too, but I don’t need to tie myself up in the semantics of what that means. It seems pretty elementary really.
Do you mean it seems pretty elementary because you expect a new frame after 3.5 years of use if it breaks or because you expect it's unlikely to be honoured after 3.5 years?
https://kingdombike.com/pages/warranty
KingdomBike (and subsidiary companies) will at its sole discretion repair or replace any KingdomBike frame that fails due to manufacturing or material defects within the time periods detailed...
...We would consider most manufacturing issues to be highlighted within a few weeks of initial build.
I'd say they've left themselves some wiggle room if it does break after 3.5 years.
In reply to the original question:
No Ti
Steel: owned 16 I can think of in a few seconds. Two broke, one down tube on a db Vitus race bike and a seat tube on a db 531 tourer. The Vitus was my favourite training hack for a decade at a time I was doing 12 000km a year. None of the MTBs failed even the jump bikes but I didn't keep them long.
Alu: owned 6 broke 2. The failures were MTB fs, both at the rear qr dropouts.
Carbon: owned 6, 3 mtb 3 road, none broken.
I have a Ti gravel bike and hardtail. I've not broken either and expect them to last a long time. I wasn't aware breakages seem so common.
We would consider most manufacturing issues to be highlighted within a few weeks of initial build.
LOL.
No. It's like they know nothing about welding...
I wasn’t aware breakages seem so common.
acquisition bias - people don’t complain that their Ti frames didn’t break.
yup.
lynskey summit. frame was fine. i spent a fortune getting all new pivot bearings and bushings. fixed it up and it got stolen from my house.
"We would consider most manufacturing issues to be highlighted within a few weeks of initial build."
See my earlier post about lack of evacuation / incorrect purge / weld contamination.
http://www.metalspiping.com/how-to-evaluate-titanium-welding-visually.html
My Ti career goes sold one cracked one sold one sold one (that later cracked) cracked one. So a mixed bag, but mainly of cracks. Now I’m moving on to cracking carbon frames instead.
Seven Axiom currently on just over 120k miles at 20 years old. OnOne down tube tore off head tube after three years. Singular Pegasus still going strong after 8-9 years with new owner
enmac
I still ride my 22 year old Airborne Lancaster. Although it started off life as a 26inch mountain....
I have one of those bought the frame off someone on here around 2009... I dont do much MTB nowadays as lost the habit during lockdown and mostly ride gravel on a Camino Ti
I still ride my 22 year old Airborne Lancaster.
Snapped mine many years ago. Cracked at the dropout.
