[Closed] Anyone gone back to non assisted after electric?

Rode my single speed on Thursday night,my ebike this morning, and riding my full suss tomorrow. It's all good.

I’m considering selling my ebike, I haven’t used it in months.

Had an eeb for around three years now.
Still ride my other bikes.
They all have a place.

Rode my regular HT this morning, eMTB tomorrow. Was out on eroad bike twice earlier in the week. Need to get out on the regular gravel bike soon. Good to mix it up.

I ride my normal bikes as well as riding my e-bike. I think though that you have to almost treat them as two different disciplines - there are steep uphill technical sections that I’ve discovered since owning an e-bike that I would never have considered if I hadn’t had one, just because they wouldn’t be possible, even if I was as fit and strong as I was thirty years ago..
You just have to be realistic and re-define what is possible and what isn’t when you switch between the two. As long as you can do that then I think you can live with both.

Can we just call them bikes and eBikes. Stop the silly terms for bikes?

^^^ well I used the terms regular bike and ebike. Why, well an ebike is just a bike too..

I'm considering buying a trail bike like a Whyte T130 to compliment my eBike but I'm not sure how often it would get ridden so Covid tax is putting me off the idea of buying something that will only get occasional use right now. I've actually got a 2011 Spesh Camber in the garage but it's too old school short high steep for me now.

I think most people have a reason for buying an eMTB. Maybe time-poor (that'd be me), want something different, want something to help with fitness, injury recovery or so on.

Once a situation changes, people might choose a different bike and in my case it may easily not be electric. In an ideal world I would of course have one of everything 😉

Yup, sold my ebike as I just don't get on with heavy bikes. I'm sure I'll get another one at some point but not until I'm much older I think.

Over the last 2 years spent a lot more time on my non e-bikes as riding with my eldest. In fact ebike probably only got ridden a couple of times in 2019/20. He’s drifting away a bit now so finding the ebike is getting a bit more use when I go out solo. Still would not want to be without one or the other though.

As others do, i rotate between normal and ebike, biggest issue is always if i use the ebike too much and then go back, legs just struggle to cope with the climbs, you get an issue the other way as well though, where if you're used to normal bikes, you don't let the ebike do the work as much as it can.

Not really seen many do the ebike only for a while to a normal, it'll be a hell of an adjustment, not just from your energy and legs, but from riding everything differently!

Yeah sorry about the bike terms, it's just when talking about eMTB I still see them as bikes. I hate the term Acoustic, analogue etc. They're just bikes.

I have four bikes, one of them e, which I ride pretty equally. I initially treated myself to an ebike when I hit a very large birthday, thinking I could only get weaker. That's true but I still get a lot of enjoyment riding anything.

I have ridden almost exclusively winter road bike (Giant Contend AR) and eroad (Spesh Creo) through lockdown, as I live in an area with lovely quiet hilly roads but crap trails. My regular gravel bike (Fugio) has seen some reasonable use round the gravel of the local windfarm too.

I am genuinely excited at having charged up my Levo SL tonight in the hope of a Mugdock ride tomorrow now that we are allowed to travel outwith our local authority area here in central Scotland.

How different are they to ride?

Could you just hop on an eeb for the first time and have a good day riding technical trails?

I'm thinking of hiring one for a day on holiday.

“I think though that you have to almost treat them as two different disciplines”

I’ve never found that at all - but if I recall correctly you’re about 20 years older than me and I’m fairly strong when it comes to both manhandling a heavy bike and pedalling a heavy bike without the electrics turned on.

“Could you just hop on an eeb for the first time and have a good day riding technical trails?”

Absolutely. Uphill there’s an element of getting used to how the motor responds, but downhill, especially with the assistance off or low or above the 15.5mph cut-out, it’s like any MTB with similar geometry and suspension but with suspension that works better (a LOT better) and an extra dose of stability (to the point I’d say there’s an argument for riding a slightly shorter steeper bike to get the same balance of stability and agility).

Out of curiosity why’s the suspension a lot better?

Sprung versus unsprung weight ratio I would guess?

Can we just call them bikes and eBikes. Stop the silly terms for bikes?

Absolutely not! Now you've made the point I'm going to be pushing hard to get 'Huff-master' and 'Velocitron' into widespread use...

Had an ebike and normal bikes, ebike got sold.

The way I pitch it is quantity versus quality, simple as that.

Though over winter when it's sloppy and slow, sometimes it feels like a normal bike is so much work for the little return in fun stuff, wheres an ebike makes that problem go away.

On a summer ride, ebike versus normal bike, I'd get in about 1/3 more riding in the same time or take 1/3 longer on the normal bike.

I also tried the ebike group rides too, has exactly the same dynamic as an non ebike ride as in, the slower riders are still the slower riders, and the faster riders are still the faster riders, with the same level of group splitting, waiting around and faff as a normal bike ride.

I switch regularly between (because I am a lucky bugger) emtb hardtail (Cube Reaction Hybrid), carbon HT XC bike (Voodoo Bizango C) and full suss (very much upgraded Merida 127.5). Horses for courses and all great fun. I use the emtb mainly for exploring and rides with my wife on her Cube emtb. Carbon XC for big days out in the mountains and full suss for bike park/DH kind of thing. One observation: the emtb is fantastic at uphill (particularly techy) stuff and just general meandering around but as soon as you hit the downhills and want to start going very much faster than the 25kmh assist limit it feels like a fat, over weight slug. The carbon HT just takes off like a scalded cat in comparison. If I had to choose between keeping either carbon HT or the emtb it would be a very difficult choice. On balance maybe I would keep the ebike because the full suss (which I would never sell) would probably cover what I do with the XC bike (though nowhere near as well).

Interesting thread. I’d assumed that most people bought their ebikes in the last couple of years so would still be in the honeymoon period, but I see we have a couple who have gone back already.

I have noticed a bit of a change in tone on ebike threads over they past few months. It’s tended to go from “ebikes are better” to “ebikes are different” with more people willing to talk about the downsides. I guess that’s just natural as something goes from “the next big thing” to just another option. I seem to remember a similar evolution with fatbikes a few years ago. First they were better and we had people saying that in future all tyres would be fat then they went back to just being another option. I’m guessing the same will happen with ebikes. They will be the perfect bike for a small subset of mountain bikers and just another option for the rest of us.

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chiefgrooveguru
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“I think though that you have to almost treat them as two different disciplines”

I’ve never found that at all – but if I recall correctly you’re about 20 years older than me and I’m fairly strong when it comes to both manhandling a heavy bike and pedalling a heavy bike without the electrics turned on.

I meant as in I actively seek out technical climbs on an e-bike that I’ve never considered on a conventional bike because they’re just too much for the power that I’m capable of generating (and were twenty years ago too, for that matter) while trying to hold a line, feel for traction...
I’m willing to admit that at nearly seventy there’s stuff that’s beyond me if I’m relying purely on my own power, even though I don’t have a reputation of riding like an old woman.

“as soon as you hit the downhills and want to start going very much faster than the 25kmh assist limit it feels like a fat, over weight slug”

I wonder if this is something that depends on the specific bike? I know the Levo has very little motor drag and plenty of anti-squat, so it’s an efficient pedaller with the power off - over the 15.5mph limit it goes as fast as my 27.5 hardtail on the flat (slower uphill as it gets steeper, faster downhill).

Do you not notice... wait! Stop! You said eMTB hardtail. Yeah, I don’t think they’re a good idea for proper riding, you’ve got such a massive lump of unsprung weight in the motor and battery all far too rigidly connected to the ground via the rear wheel.

An electric full-sus is a very different animal, it’s got so much grip and stability but it’s also super easy to get airborne and flies so straight and true. I’m not a good jumper but I like being off the ground lots, just not too high in the air, and the Levo just swoops in 3D arcs through jumps and drops and berms and rough.

I've gone back to non-assisted after owning an ebike for three years.

I had chronic health issues which meant I was no longer able to keep up in a club I had been a member for nearly two decades. Despite contributing significantly to the club over the years in many aspects, I got a hard time from a few narrow minded big mouthed biggots. In the end I decided most of my friends has stopped riding with the club, because of these narcissists , so I didn't ride with it any longer either.

As for the bike, I had mixed feelings about ebikes. The ebike did help me in a period of poor health. I am not full recovered, but now ride and take my time a bit more. It's fun power up singletrack on an ebike, but the assistance is very on and off, and I don't like the weight in the bike. It's nice to have a light nimble bike again and feel more connected with the trail. Less sometimes can be more!

I personally prefer the challenge of climbing a hill without help! Must be wierd or something!

Use my ebike every day for taking Jnr to nursary/shops/errands.

Still use my actual bike for recreation

Don't miss the electrification. I see my ebike as a way to reduce car use without getting sweaty.mostof my recreation rides are above the 25kph cut off anyway

I think that getting the best out of them is very terrain dependant. I got mine because a lot of the stuff I ride is big climbs and more technical descents. Limiter isn’t a problem as I’m just using the assist on the climbs and the downs are tight and twisty and/or steep enough that you don’t pedal.
I can imagine if you ride a lot of rolling terrain it’s a different story running into the limiter the whole time. Modern motors have very little drag, just try turning cranks in withstand with motor off. You can’t however escape the fact that above the limiter you’re still trying to push a lot heavier bike and generally more draggy tyres. There’s also the effect of suddenly losing 250 watts which feels like hitting a wall. Can be difficult to judge jumps when you’re pedalling up to speed and suddenly hit the assistance limit.
Extra weight definitely noticeable in tight stuff. You get used to it and not such an issue on steeper stuff but flat twisties are hard work with the motor kicking in and out the whole time.
Road and gravel bikes for healthy riders I don’t understand. Make sense for less fit riders and those with injury issues, but even I ride at a pace that would mean I rarely would get any assistance.

Had an eeb

What is an eeb? Electric, electric bike? So twice the electricity?

suspension but with suspension that works better (a LOT better)

sprung to unsprung ratio

Am I missing something? Why is this different to either sticking a coulple of full water bottles on the frame, or carrying a heavy backpack, or just hitting the beer and pies for a few months.... Rider is all sprung weight and an e-bike still has the same amount of unsprung as a conventional bike (likely more if it's got a cheap heavy wheel set and DD tyres). Unsprung weight is definitely important - the suspension on the Pinion gearbox bike I had for a couple of years did work really well (the backwheel lost the mech and cassette), and the low centre of gravity/weight around the BB changes how it corners (but you can wrap lead around the BB - a'la Chris Porter to get that handling, though of course then you've got to drag it up hill too)

I've had a few rides on a Whyte E150 and, while it is fun cruising up super steep trails and getting to the top of the hill quicker, it's a bit of lump downhill. Looking forward to my Orbea Rise

I rented an ebike for the day and while going uphill it was indeed amazing, it wasn't that fun downhill. It was so sluggish and heavy, the suspension felt a little harsh and it just wasn't that great.

First time I rode my regular bike after that day it felt amazing, so much nicer on the downs.

Took my recently purchased legacy bike for a pedal today. It was meant for uplift days or flying with etc. God it was rubbish, even in the bikepark it just felt like hard work, I thought I had a puncture it was so slow to get going.
Makes me appreciate my kenevo even more, fast, planted, so much more enjoyable to ride.
I can't see me ever going back to having a non powered bike only, would be like trading the oled TV for a black and white CRT.

“ Am I missing something? Why is this different to either sticking a coulple of full water bottles on the frame, or carrying a heavy backpack, or just hitting the beer and pies for a few months…”

Yes, you are missing something. A couple of full waterbottles weighs about 4lbs. My Levo weighs about 20lbs more than my previous full-sus, 52 vs 32lbs.

The wheels, tyres, cassette, discs, calipers, fork lowers, etc add up to a lot of the weight of a full-sus bike - something like a third of the weight.

So a normal full-sus has an sprung:unsprung ratio of about 2:1 whilst an e-full-sus is about 4:1

Adding weight to the rider has very different effects - carrying 20lbs of ballast is not going to give your hands, feet or the rest of you, an easier time on rough downhills. I know the heavier my pack, the less good it feels.

daveylad, surely it was you that was slow and rubbish (no offence) not the bike..

Chiefgrooveguru... Yes hardtail so I agree you are probably right that a £5k+ full suss emtb will feel far better on the downhill than my £2k ehardtail (though it's surprisingly good on techy stuff). Can't get away from the weight though. Yes, I can see it could help with rolling over stuff and soaking up impacts etc but once you get to the point where it really can't make it up, or when you want to cash in all the gravity that you're earnt, the emtbs really are fat ducklings and become a bit of a liability. When the going gets really tough (I love big mountain riding) I can sling my carbon HT over my shoulders to carry it and barely notice the weight or ping it over roots and rocks or manual out of trouble in an instant. Lifting the emtbs over styles/gates is a right pain in the arse and something we do a lot of. I'm certainly not knocking the ebikes though, they're fantastic ploughing through snow and muddy ruts, or following your curiosity down some steep trail to find out where it goes, knowing you can always get back up without too much effort/commitment. On balance, if I had to have either an analogue (for want of a better word) mtb or emtb, it would be analogue all day long, but it's great to have both. And as a final note, my wife's Cube emtb means she now loves joining me for some pretty big days out (50 or 60km of gravelly, moorland type riding) which she would never have managed otherwise. It's a joy to have her along to share some of this stuff, so I'm definitely a fan overall.

Is £95 reasonable for a day's hire?

I was expecting more like £70.

trading the oled TV for a black and white CRT.

A better analogy would be trading your motorbike for a bicycle 😉

I absolutely wouldn’t go back. I’m into week 3 of waiting for a part for my ebike and I’m on the normal bike all the time.

I hate the fact I can’t do lunchtime power hours, or I can’t train in the week and still get to go for a decent ride.

My riding is all about the downs. So whilst I can, and do big days out, I’d rather do 2000m of climbing in half the time and ride more trails on the ebike.

I don’t deny the normal bike is better to ride, but the ebike is bloody close, and the sheer amount I can do makes it even closer.

If it wasn’t for racing, I could almost be a permi ebiker.

legacy bike

I imagine that penny farthings would be hard work in a bike park, yes.

analogue (for want of a better word)

Unassisted is a better word. Or just “bike”.

It’s funny how cars manage to have just “cars” and “electric cars” without having to pretend they’re guitars or radios.

So a normal full-sus has an sprung:unsprung ratio of about 2:1 whilst an e-full-sus is about 4:1

I mean, sure, but the rider is still the heaviest part of the system.

Take that into account and the sprung:unsprung ratio looks much less significant. Probably less than 10% difference, even for light riders.

No, nobody. Everyone who buys an ebike goes WOW, so much better than all that effort, and never revert to non electric.

I thought that was obvious.

@chiefgrooveguru has a point here-

Adding weight to the rider has very different effects – carrying 20lbs of ballast is not going to give your hands, feet or the rest of you, an easier time on rough downhills

Concede that but a heavier bike still takes it out of your upper body as you throw it about. I used to hate riding bikes with panniers vs a rucksack as you couldn't ride the bike in the same way. Now e-bikes do put (most) of the weight in the best place for it, but they're still heavy.

but surely -
blockquote>Take that into account and the sprung:unsprung ratio looks much less significant. Probably less than 10% difference, even for light riders.

My experience of the Pinion was that the impact of reducing unsprung weight (especially on the rear wheel) was far more dramatic than increasing sprung weight. A heavy bike feels stable in a straight line - ride a super light race bike and they do get bounced around - but its not all positive.

Me and a mate hired e-fats for an epic XC day in the alps, was great fun!

Me and laddo hired e-bikes one weekend at Comrie - camped the overnight, rode the trails then up to the loch above, what a great weekend!

Hiring works brilliantly imho.

“ I mean, sure, but the rider is still the heaviest part of the system.

Take that into account and the sprung:unsprung ratio looks much less significant. Probably less than 10% difference, even for light riders.”

But what you feel when riding is the grips and pedals pushing and pulling on your hands and feet - you are not rigidly connected to the vehicle. Yes, without the weight of the rider the suspension on a MTB barely works at all but that doesn’t mean you can consider the rider part of the sprung vehicle weight - it’s a separate mass connected with its own suspension of four limbs.

Sketch out some force diagrams of what happens when a bike hits a bump and you’ll see what I mean. Adding this much mass to the bike frame significantly changes the forces at your hands and feet.

“Concede that but a heavier bike still takes it out of your upper body as you throw it about. I used to hate riding bikes with panniers vs a rucksack as you couldn’t ride the bike in the same way. Now e-bikes do put (most) of the weight in the best place for it, but they’re still heavy.”

I don’t know if you’ve spent much time riding ebikes but it’s nothing like having a bike loaded with luggage - the extra weight is low and front-mid, which is the ideal place to add mass to a bike for stability without ruining the polar inertia.

Yes, it takes a bit more strength to manhandle an ebike but I’d argue that’s a good thing for your overall fitness, especially as you get older. I don’t think an ebike at speed feels heavy, it feels calm.

that doesn’t mean you can consider the rider part of the sprung vehicle weight – it’s a separate mass connected with its own suspension of four limbs.

What do you think supports that weight?!

If I put a car on top of another car, does it not count as sprung weight because it's got it's own suspension?

ebike here since november- im considering riding my ht more now its dry but still use the ebike a lot as for short blasts the ebike is more fun.

I’ve had ankle surgery that didn’t work and my lightweight ebike has got me out riding agin and in a good place. Not sure if I could deal with the full fat 50lbs + ebikes. The lightweight bikes are far better on my opinion.
Love my Levo sl.

“ If I put a car on top of another car, does it not count as sprung weight because it’s got it’s own suspension?”

This is a good example. If you put a car on top of another car and then proceed to drive it fast down a bumpy road and over a few humpback bridges, will the car on top stay where you’ve put it?

The heavier the bottom car vs the top car, the smaller the forces being transmitted between the two because the bottom car isn’t relying on the mass of the top car to load the suspension.

How rough a trail feels or how ineffective your suspension feels comes mostly down to the forces transmitted to your contact points.

Back to the topic, my hardtail is great for riding round here but I can’t squeeze two steep descents and a total of 1100’ of climbing into a half hour 6 mile commute home without an electric motor helping out.

The heavier the bottom car vs the top car, the smaller the forces being transmitted between the two

Can you explain with actual force equations / diagrams?

“ Can you explain with actual force equations / diagrams?”

If you pay me! 😉 If not then I’ve got a business to run, three small children to look after and a wife I’d like some time with. If I had more time then I might not have an ebike!

You can simplify it to a vertical force (ground reaction) into a spring (tyre) to a mass (unsprung weight) to a spring (suspension) to a mass (bike) to a spring (limbs) to a mass (body) with gravity and inertia affecting all the masses. That junction of bike mass to limb springs is what your hands and feet feel.

Obviously if you increase the bike mass then less force is transmitted to the rider - in a static or low frequency situation this difference will still be significant but less large but as the frequency increases the inertia of the bike mass matters more and more. If “obviously” doesn’t seem obvious then draw it out or borrow an ebike with half-decent suspension!

All of the “explanation” so far has just been “it’s obvious”.

Just wondering as I have very limited experience with ebikes. Can I get different pedals like the wah wah or big muff?*

“ All of the “explanation” so far has just been “it’s obvious”.”

Picture yourself riding a bike whose frame is filled with depleted uranium and weighs about half a ton. Just visualise how that’s going to react when it goes through a rock garden vs a carbon frame that weighs a hundredth as much. If you can’t imagine that then I really can’t help!

If adding weight to bikes really makes suspension work better, then why haven’t people started adding additional weights to ebikes?

“ Can I get different pedals like the wah wah or big muff?*”

I have two Barefaced Machinists on my board (sandwiching the envelope and phaser) but I’ll be damned if I can get them to interface with the threads on my cranks...

“ If adding weight to bikes really makes suspension work better, then why haven’t people started adding additional weights to ebikes?”

Because it’s harder to throw around a heavy bike (although not as much as you’d think). And more importantly, heavy bikes feel heavy in the shop, plus we have 100+ years of minimum weight being one of the most sought after specs on a bicycle.

Picture yourself riding a bike whose frame is filled with depleted uranium and weighs about half a ton. Just visualise how that’s going to react when it goes through a rock garden vs a carbon frame that weighs a hundredth as much. If you can’t imagine that then I really can’t help!

Yes, greater sprung mass will work better. That doesn’t equate to “but the rider doesn’t count as sprung mass” though.

A heavier load on suspension makes any friction from the seals less noticable so can see why it can work better with a heavier bike. Extreme loads that cause lots of flex might increase friction though. Also most forks are over damped for very light riders so having a few extra kg's behind them will make a big difference. My forks are plusher if I have a full backpack with 3 liters of water in it.

Personally, I wouldn't sacrifice the feel of a light bike just to make the suspension slightly plusher though.

A heavier load on suspension makes any friction from the seals less noticable so can see why it can work better with a heavier bike.

I think we all agree on that.

I just don’t buy that an ebike’s suspension works double better because it’s mass ratio is double that of a bike and you can completely ignore the mass of the rider.

“ I just don’t buy that an ebike’s suspension works double better because it’s mass ratio is double that of a bike and you can completely ignore the mass of the rider.”

That’s perfectly reasonable because none of that is true. An ebike’s suspension works better by an obvious margin (but one I haven’t quantified). You can’t completely ignore the weight of the rider because it clearly has an effect on the suspension - that’s why we tune suspension differently for two riders of similar speed but different weight.

But to treat the mass of the rider as equivalent to adding mass to the bike itself, that makes no sense. Watch a great rider taking a DH bike through a rock garden (Mont Sainte Anne WC DH comes to mind) and the rider’s and bike’s centre of masses move on completely different trajectories, with the rider travelling in much smoother curves whilst the frame gets bucked all over the place (despite 8” of very nice suspension).

@cookeaa

Now you’ve made the point I’m going to be pushing hard to get ‘Huff-master’ and ‘Velocitron’ into widespread use…

Now this I can totally get behind!

Is £95 reasonable for a day’s hire?

I was expecting more like £70.

Prices have risen in the last couple of years (I noticed this when looking at hiring before Christmas at GT), probably linked to the cost new and keeping them running.

The folk I ride with who bought eBikes, only ride their eBikes now.
Probably linked to the terrain we ride in (Tweed Valley) and the type of rider that buys an eBike.

How different are they to ride?

Could you just hop on an eeb for the first time and have a good day riding technical trails?

I’m thinking of hiring one for a day on holiday.

Absolutely... I've hired and borrowed, I even took a e-roady thing out 2 weeks ago (my back still hurts) .. done huge days in Mallorca I'd have struggled with and borrow my brothers and mates e-things randomly.

If my mates taking his Kenevo today I'll definitely play again

I'm a big fan for a bit of occasional use but they are not bikes but motorbikes you have pedals on whatever justifications people come up with.

I’m a big fan for a bit of occasional use but they are not bikes but motorbikes you have pedals on whatever justifications people come up with.

Good, Glad we've got that point in. Again. 🤦‍♂️

One unsung benefit of eBikes, in terms of suspension kinematics, is that they don't reduce the rider's unsprung mass.

Makes you think.

Whether the riders weight and bike weight have different affects on the bikes suspension isn't ever going to be black and white is it?

There's going to be scenarios where the rider's mass and bike mass are moving in sync, just as there's going to be scenarios where the two masses will be moving out of sync, so I don't think either side of the argument can claim to be definitive.

I would argue that if you make the assumption that grip is the primary function of the bike, any rider worth their salt makes grip by loading up the bike, I'd stand by the statement during the rider loading the bike, the bike mass and rider mass are one and shouldn't be differentiated.

But if you're shooting for comfort, assuming rolling around something bumpy with the rider letting the bike dance, then they're two seperate masses doing two different things.

This all kind of highlights what so many suspension gurus say is difficult about developing mtb suspension, you have a rider jiggling about the place unpredictability.

“ I would argue that if you make the assumption that grip is the primary function of the bike”

Grip is only the primary function when turning or braking. When you’re travelling with constant velocity or accelerating due to gravity only then you need little or no grip.

“ But if you’re shooting for comfort, assuming rolling around something bumpy with the rider letting the bike dance, then they’re two seperate masses doing two different things.”

It was actually Rachel Atherton talking about technique that made me realise quite how separate a bike and rider sometimes need to be, when riding as fast as possible. Her suggestion of thinking “knees out” through rock gardens so the bike can go wild whilst you travel in as straight a line as possible.

“I’d stand by the statement during the rider loading the bike, the bike mass and rider mass are one and shouldn’t be differentiated.”

If that was true then riders would never have issues with arm pump.

Good, Glad we’ve got that point in. Again.

We all knew who was going to say it, just not when.

@chiefgrooveguru

It's all just demonstrating it's not clean cut, right?

I'd add another scenario where the rider is loading up the bike, vertical pumps, so jump faces, back sides etc.

On arm pump, I don't think anyone really, really gets the cause, or else there'd be a solution that works. But in terms of the model we're discussing, the arms are either a rigid link to the riders mass if bike mass and rider mass are considered one, or they're a spring /damper in the rider and bike mass seperate model, you could quite easily rationalise arm pump in either model, agree? The arm muscles have to do work in either model and are subjected to vibration in either model.

“ It’s all just demonstrating it’s not clean cut, right?”

It’s never been clean cut, that was never my point. My point throughout has been that the greater sprung mass of an ebike makes the suspension work better - regardless of how you want to consider the rider’s mass.

“ But in terms of the model we’re discussing, the arms are either a rigid link to the riders mass if bike mass and rider mass are considered one, or they’re a spring /damper in the rider and bike mass seperate model, you could quite easily rationalise arm pump in either model, agree?”

As I said in an earlier post, the easiest way to understand this is to extrapolate the mass of the bike frame to a huge amount. As soon as you imagine that, then you see that the greater the bike mass, the better it isolates the rider from vibrations with an amplitude of less than the suspension travel, especially at higher frequencies where the rider can’t use their limbs as additional suspension.

The greater the sprung mass of the bike vs the rider’s mass, the more the forces due to bumps transmitted to the rider’s hands and feet tend towards zero. And vice versa, the lighter the frame and heavier the rider, the more the forces at the hands and feet tend towards the max.

If all that mattered was the effect of rough terrain on the forces at our centres of mass, then your argument would be justified. But in a world where we have to hold onto the bars and keep our feet on the pedals, then it really isn’t like that.

The greater the sprung mass of the bike vs the rider’s mass

But that's the whole thing though, it's ratio of mass of bike to mass of rider. Which is much less significantly changed than double for an electric bike.

Chief.
I'd not bother any more if I were you.
If he doesn't believe that the suspension works better so what?

I know both mine and Mrsstu's eebs act in the way you describe but I couldn't care less if a random disagrees.
Mrsstu is terrible to try and set a bike up for as she can't describe to me what's happening so I can try to make it better.
Her first thought on riding an eeb was. Doesn't the suspension work well, it feels like I have loads more grip.
What anyone else thinks is irrelevant.

"Chief.
I’d not bother any more if I were you."

Final attempt!

"But that’s the whole thing though, it’s ratio of mass of bike to mass of rider. Which is much less significantly changed than double for an electric bike."

It isn't ratio of mass of bike to mass of rider - however, even if it was, it appears you're trying to argue that you need to change something by double or half to make a significant difference? Am I the only person that considers the difference between 20 and 25 psi in my tyres really obvious? Or do I need to only vary them by going from 20 to 40 psi if it's too squirmy or from 30 down to 15 if it's too hard/bouncy?

I'm not suggesting that we should go adding ballast to our normal full-sus bikes, because there's more to it than the suspension behaviour but for the few months of overlap when I still had my Spitfire as well as the Levo and my hardtail, I spent quite a while pondering how to add ballast to the Spitfire for uplift days! And then I sold it because having more than two MTBs just confuses me.

I spent quite a while pondering how to add ballast to the Spitfire for uplift days!

Wonder no longer -

Jack wouldn't tell us the weight of the lead but just said he's been working with Chris Porter from Mojo, and through testing has found that by placing the extra weight behind the stem and at the bottom bracket helps to calm down the forces and roughness from tracks, keeping the ride planted.

It is track specific however as Jack says it feels good on the fast and rough tracks but made the bike feel a little dead on the tight and twisty sections.

however, even if it was, it appears you’re trying to argue that you need to change something by double or half to make a significant difference

No. You were claiming that the suspension changes were so significant because the sprung/unsprung ratio of the bike alone doubled.

I haven't been trying to claim that weight changes don't affect suspension, far from it. Merely that system weight is still important, and it's a much smaller ratio change.

“You were claiming that the suspension changes were so significant because the sprung/unsprung ratio of the bike alone doubled.”

Yes. That’s still true. However you want to look at it, the rider and the bike are not conjoined, they’re separate entities.