[Closed] Another trail in the Lake District giving the treatment 🙁

Wow that’s impressive 🤔

Think of the Strava KOM though

Wow.  That's ****ing awful.

I know a lot of walkers who hate this shit too.

It's happened to the bottom of snowdon ranger too, so it's not just the lakes.

Almost hope we have a shitty winter and it rips that monstrosity up to hell!

Before [url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5746/30759501035_7c06622524_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5746/30759501035_7c06622524_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/NS7u1K ]Untitled[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/nzrich/ ]Richard Munro[/url], on Flickr

That's the same trail over from Tilberthwaite that's been getting lots of press.

I can't help thinking that a local quarry owner has mates who sign off this work - all that 'quarry waste' must cost £K's. That or a gravel bike manufacturer.....

That section has been really good recently - bedrock steps, which were a hoot downhill and a challenge to climb. In the past it's been loose baby head rocks and a bit of a pain. The weather will sort it soon enough. If it's done for farm access (as it is a BOAT I believe) then it's sort of understandable, but it does look like twee touristification. There's a fairly posh development off to the right these days isn't there?

EDIT - how old is that before pic?

Sad to see ..I've ridden it a few times in its former "glory" ..its going to take more than one bad winter to wash that crap away though ..

Awfull.

It'll wash out n be worse in every possible way

So in the first pic we have an eroded mess, in the second we have a repaired path that will blend in nicely over time.

Why do you want these eroded messes to be allowed to get worse and worse?  It somewhat upset me to go walking in the lakes and see the paths I remember from my childhood as wide eroded gullies.

As a guy who walks a lot @tjagain I walk to escape the manicured sanitised world.  The 'eroded mess' presents zero problems to walkers.  That crap is tantamount to tarmac - like walking on the pavement in the middle of Ambleside.  Hardly escaping are you?

It's now a bike motorway too. So it'll increase conflict between both sets of pissed-off-at-the-vandalism user groups.

Im not looking for an arguement here TJ ..but what you see as an eroded mess ...others see as a trail with a certain level of technicality / challenge ..

That's certainly how I viewed it each time I have ridden it ..if every trail were to be " smoothed out " why would we bother with full suspension mountain bikes ?

It's not a 'trail'.

Shockingly more goes on in the countryside than the entitled and ignorant riding 5k plastic bikes.

Some people actually need to be able to access tracks with vehicles so they can earn a living.

The problem with that type of surface is it will wash away into a dangerous gully after a few decent days of rain.  This will make it unsafe to ride, problematic for farm vehicles and an issue for walkers.  Judging by eye that surface is about a foot deep so you'll end up with a foot of gully meandering through it.

We have a trail near us that has survived since the Romans.

Then someone “repaired” it. A few winters later a gulley has formed in it. It’s no good to ride and the horses can’t walk on it.

Now it’s an overgrown mess and no use to anyone. No doubt my poll tax will be used to fix it again when that money could have been used elsewhere.

SR

I'm well aware of that being the case ..I live in a very remote part of the country myself ..and certainly don't view myself as being either ignorant or entitled ..no need for the aggression ..mine was a point of view ..

*It's not a track either ..

I understand the argument that vehicle access may be needed but is that what’s happened here?  If so why not just tarmac and be done with it ?  It would be no less ugly and out of keeping than what has been done, and would last a lot better.

B***ards took the cow as well...

Actually a bit of googling shows that it is in fact a road, not a path or trail, and is owned by Highways Agency...

Oh boy ...sorry but..

[img] [/img]
[url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/156204930@N03/44056732310/ ]Screenshot_20181114-081105_Chrome[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/156204930@N03/ ]Neil Hodgson[/url] - [url= https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.dariogf.flickr2BBcode_lite ]Flickr2BBcode LITE[/url]

What's the streetmap link on that trail please? I sort of recognise it but sort of don't, getting confused with exactly which trail it is...

It’s not a track either ..

No it's a highway that the highways department have a duty to maintain in an accessible state for ALL users not just those of us on two wheels that enjoy a challenge.

Did they chip out the bedrock, or just cover it up with a load of shingle which will wash out this winter? Either way, anything approaching a standard LD winter will remove large quantities of that stuff within months.

the highways department have a duty to maintain in an accessible state for ALL users not just those of us on two wheels that enjoy a challenge.

TBH most of the other users will have preferred the bedrock - I imagine Kankku et al will be equally pissed off. But if the farmer is genuinely wanting to use it to get to his stock, then I guess we need to find other challenges around there.

Crazy-legs

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=330720&y=502760&z=120&sv=330720,502760&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf&dn=559&ax=330720&ay=502760&lm=0

Which MTB red run was that? don't recognise it. Was it a technical ascent or a descent? Looks more like a blue now 😉

http://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/aboutus/media-centre/latest-news/statements/vehicles-on-green-roads

@crazy-legs It's in Little Langdale  http://streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=330712&Y=502732&A=Y&Z=120

How long ago was it that the section of Jenkins Crag was covered? On the JennRide this spring it was already being washed away. Certainly where there's any significant slope or surface water the work doesn't last that long. The Coniston side of Walna Scar is another that was covered but is now back to pretty much as it was on the steeper sections.

Thanks @martinhutch & @whitestone.

I normally go down through Moss Rigg Wood, there are some proper and possibly not-so-proper 😉 trails there. Not been along that Tilberthwaite one in a couple of years.

From the LDNP link above:

We understand that for some people that the enjoyment they get from using a route may centre around overcoming the challenge of ‘technical’ sections on a route. On some routes in the Lake District this challenge has always been part of the route with bedrock, steep gradients and unstable surfaces providing that challenge.

With regards to Tilberthwaite this is not the case, as we are dealing with a route that was created as part of the infrastructure to support the mining and quarrying activities in the area. This overall infrastructure is part of the historic environment of the area and is recognised in the submission to UNESCO that resulted in the National Park being granted World Heritage Site status.

The work on the route is aimed at returning the track to an overall condition similar to that when it was constructed. We recognise that in doing so we are repairing the more challenging damaged sections enjoyed by some people, but it will make the track more accessible and enjoyable to others who are currently unable to use the route due to the damaged sections.

As with every route that we repair, this has been carefully evaluated to ensure all user groups are considered and that it receives the appropriate level of maintenance.

When they were saying it was to help the farmer access his stock, that's a fair argument, but returning the track to the state it was in when it was supporting quarrying and mining seems slightly wrong-headed, given that there is no quarrying or mining up there these days. I love how they are trotting out the UNESCO stuff to justify absolutely anything they want already.

Not sure who the users who are 'currently unable' to enjoy the route are. Can't be walkers, they can get up it just fine. Not 4x4s or MTBs.

Must either be gravel bikers or little old ladies in Nissan Micras.

I can see it from both sides.

It's disappointing that a section of my favourite local ride is gone (for now)  but I understand that the farmer needs access. Thats their livelihood.

So, serious question, what would be the best way to 'resurface' a trail like this? How would you keep all end users happy? I don't know what the answer is.... Anybody?

I liked that bit! ****ers.

I'd take that over the baby heads dumped over huge sections of the lakes in the past (including the bottom of that road/track/trail/line on a map) which are often loose and unstable making walking or horse riding much less enjoyable and playing a big part in the widening and damage to those same-whatever-you-want-to-call-thems.

That was a fun trail.

I'm sure motorbikes use that section!!

I’m sure motorbikes use that section!!

Yeah the one time i rode that trail there were quite a few enduro motorbikes coming up it. The riders were all really nice and gave me priority heading down it, unlike the Kanku 4x4 that came up a bit after them

I don’t know specifics about this matter but I have had a lot of experience with Cumbrian local government at all levels, and LDNPA. Corruption rules up there, and if something happens it is most often for all the wrong reasons.

Hi all,

I am semi local to that trail re my mrs living nearby. Local people are not happy with it. Last I heard it cost 75k to do. Met a kankku driver up there walking it and he was in favor of it re clients. There is a lot of anti 4x4 feeling too. See westmoreland gazette website.

New farmer has replaced the old one. He drives his quad all over the fells not just the track.... it was perfectly accessible pre work by quad. It did not need such repair work everywhere to allow him access. Old farmer left re 4x4 disturbance.

The bedrock slabs were a delight to ride n run up or down. Its now very fast and far less interesting. Bedrock was smashed up too in places. I watched unfold the last couple of months with sadness. Been on local tv and in the papers.

Its happening to a lot of great tracks in the lakes and it is really taking any challenge away. Seems to be a lot of bridleways thats getting the work to make stuff more family friendly or to appease unnesco. I know some riders like it as it loads easier to ride now - whats wrong with hike a bike if its too hard?. Homogenous gravel is not what I like to ride myself. Problem is its happening a lot with no sign of stopping. Faster speeds are going to cause conflict with other users. I also think a few hard winters will trash it and more money will be spent on a pointless repair/restructure when the local main roads are potholed to hell...

Paul

Not knowing who Kankku were I googled them.  Is it a huge coincidence that the main photo/animation at the top of their site is of the exact same view posted by the OP?

http://kankku.co.uk/

“Entitled and ignorant on 5K plastic bikes”

so it would be ok if they were on £500 steel bikes? 😉

That's truly shocking.

I am struggling with this - the trail clearly has eroded, a lot. That poses real issues for the farmer, it is possibly going to continue ending up with new trails being formed and or innacessibility.

The new trail does seem to stand out some, but may well bed in nicely.

I do have concerns that I cannot see drains and such like, has this just created another issue further down the road through poor construction.

Met a kankku driver up there walking it and he was in favor of it re clients.

I cannot fathom why this should be. I thought the whole point was getting clients onto challenging terrain, not the kind of track you could get a standard car up?

And in what way does UNESCO status demand this kind of repair?

That poses real issues for the farmer, it is possibly going to continue ending up with new trails being formed and or innacessibility.

It was in that condition for years without any sign of trouble, and if, as reported above, the farmer on that side is quite happy tackling it on a quad, that takes away any justification for blowing 75K on levelling it.

(*braces for abuse*)

So, a few years back I did a Kankku 4x4 trip up in the Lakes and I am pretty sure that I remember driving down this section of trail, which was one of the toughest that we did...and lots of fun too:

I specifically remember them talking a lot about erosion and protecting the trail and they were insistent that the tyres remained on firm ground at all times to avoid churning the place up. We were also told not to spin tyres or generally hoon about either, for much the same reasons (as well as wrecking the trucks and pissing off other users). Noone did and, tbh, considering that we took a load of 4x4s across an offroad route, I'm pretty sure our "impact" was pretty low, although doing this twice per day, every day might be a very different matter.

They mentioned that a lot of trail damage was actually from private 4x4s driven by people who didn't have a clue what they were doing and thus caused way more damage than they needed to. I'm not sure what the truth of it is, of course, but we were taught basic techniques for torque reduction (i.e. brake and throttle together) to avoid wheelspin and associated damage and loss of forward momentum and I know that the group we were in certainly weren't pissing about.  We only met a couple of bikes on the day we were out and the convoy was instructed to stop to let them get past us with minimal fuss.

I'm surprised that Kankku would have gone along with this as it would go without saying that a flat, gravel track isn't a lot of fun for this sort of thing, but perhaps they are aware of the delicate balance that lets them keep running these excursions. That said, if I were a farmer and I needed to use this (public) route to do my job, I might want it sorting out as it would be heavy going to drive this every single day, with a sheep trailer on the back!

(Oddly, I've never actually ridden around here so I can't comment from an MTB point of view. I really must correct this in the near future!)

It’s happened to the bottom of snowdon ranger too, so it’s not just the lakes.

Anyone know how bad the damage is?

Is it still worth riding?

Was thinking of going on Sunday 🙁

Those pointy things in the background are a bit bugger to get up and down, they should level them off while they're at it, make it all nice and flat. Like Norfolk.

☹️ That is depressing

They killed the coo too

This gravel riding is really taking off in the Lakes.

It was a classic "intermediate" Lakes trail, not the gnarliest of the gnar but one of the most-popular routes in the Lakes for improving riders.

Low level, not steep, but presenting a bit of technical challenge.

So sad that the LDNPA didn't see it as an asset - even something to be promoted.

Almost like they don't give a shit about MTBers

🙁

Good, reasoned thread discussing significant affairs for outdoor enthusiasts .

Well done everyone 🙂

Billyboy - What do you mean “there’s corruption in Cumbrian local government and LDNPA”?

If it's been done for access to a farm, fair enough, if the work was to restore some heritage quarrying route, then that's bizarre. £75k though. Ooft.

It’s two fold, it’s been a magnet for off roader vehicles chewing it up and yes it’s used as a working farm track. Sad they did a final groomed layer. When it was babies heads all the way it was rather enjoyable (given its need for a bit of work)

Which way now then, from say oxen fell to a pint of Old Peculiar in the old dungeon gyll? I have previously gone along the now flattened path and road up to side pike, accidentally ending up at back of the NT campsite.

It's hard to see how that can happen without some corruption going on.

Spending that much money on a track nobody needs/wants resurfaced when the main roads are third world and there's a need for foodbanks?

It would be interesting to see a full rundown of who signed off on what, and any business links to the money being spent.

It'll be a designated feature of the ''historic landscape' so to maintain the designation they'll be legally obligated to do it but they also probably had some budget underspend to shift. Basically piss it away or you won't get it next year

‘...Spending that much money on a track nobody needs/wants resurfaced when the main roads are third world and there’s a need for foodbanks?...’

The bit being missed here is that people do want it resurfaced. The farm needs it and the constant 4*4’s ripping up the surface has badly degraded it over the last couple of years. They’ve been causing quite a degree of aggro in little langdale

Think about the hole under the gate dropping down to langdale. That’s not passable each way and the 4*4 boys are coming for the challenge which ramps it up even more.

Probably one of my favourite routes, and a little heavy handed. But that’s how it was laid originally and what it needs to be to make the track sustainable.

RE: Snowdon Ranger - it's the very bottom section where you turn off for the climb to telegraph valley.  Most of it is still great - for now.

They're also ****ing the scramble at the top of the Watkin path - putting a staircase in instead of leaving it as-is.  The scramble is one of the best features of the walk.

It's a joke.  Had a local tell me it's because lots of people hurt themselves and mountain rescue get called out a lot - but with Snowdon atteacting half a million people a year and all the tax dollar that takes then perhaps Gwynedd council should stop relying on volunteers and fund a service for that mountain, rather than ruin the reason tourists go there in the first place.

When tracks get eroded like that walkers the walk alongside leading to braiding and widening of the eroded scar.

I have seen over the decades I have been going into the hills in the lakes and scotland popular routes go from a narrow wear mark to a wide muddy eroded mess and then repaired so it reverts to a narrow path again.  those sort of repairs look awful when done but soon blend in.  The alternative is that the erode further until you get huge wide scars all over the hills

How many of you that are moaning have got engaged and tried to make the repairs more sympathetic to the needs of MTBers?  I bet not a single one of you has ever done so either with practical help or lobbying.

The problem is that people didn't know the works were happening until they chanced upon some bloke with a picker smashing up bedrock. The opportunity to have any input into the nature of repairs was not presented. Similarly at 3 Rivers near Staveley. The first we knew about it was encountering a fait accompli of heavy machinery and tonnes of gravel in situ.

This particular track is no wider than it was, and was down to bedrock in most of the eroded places, so wasn't likely to get any worse. There was no opportunity for vehicles to avoid the difficulties, and they present no problem for walkers. I'll defer to people who say that it has got a lot worse in the last few years, although apart from one short section on the south side, I haven't noticed myself.

I think there is general agreement that if the farmer needs repairs to access stock, then that's fine, but there seem to be a variety of 'reasons' presented by the LDNPA - some kind of UNESCO reason, allowing 'other users to enjoy' reason. Neither of those seem particularly compelling.

@tjagain - when tracks are repaired like that I walk and ride alongside the track, leading to more erosion - because I don't want to walk or ride on that stuff.

I'm not alone.

There's a level of acceptance that needs to be had - we live in a country of nearly 70 million people.  Tracks are going to be eroded or widened somewhat.   But the tracks we're talking about here in the lake district, and on snowdon, didn't need the "repairs" that have been carried out.   Especially on Snowdon - the south side of the peak is a scree field with no real "path" in there - never has been as long as the mountain's been there.  The scramble at the top is part of why people choose the Watkin path.

But they're making effing stairs.  Why don't they put a f*cking escalator in?  Or another goddamn train?

Most of these "repairs" are totally unnecessary.  In the case of snowdon - they've taken the thin natural sheep path - which was barely noticeable in the grass up to Telegraph Valley - and made a wide, gravelled bridleway that's a slate-coloured scar visible for miles around.

It's gone from nature (could have been a sheep path, was easy to miss) to a clear obvious man-made scar.

So get off your high horse.  A lot (not all, by any means, but a lot) of the work that's going on is utterly unnecessary and trashes things for walkers, never mind MTBers.

Agree @martinhutch.  I was talking to a walker over Loughrigg fell who lives in the area and is angry about the repairs.  Their objection "discussion" went like this:

- What are you doing?

- We're making it safe for walkers, upgrading the trail.

- Walkers hate it.  You can see it for miles and it's ruined a path we had no problem with.

- Well, it's not just walkers you know - mountain bikers use it too.

- Mountain bikers hate it.  You can see it for miles and it's ruined a path they had no problem with.

- Well, what about disabled people.  You couldn't get a wheelchair up there.  We've got to cater to the less-abled y'know.

It's a mindset of "we have the money, not enough to do a *proper* hand-made job, but we're going to do something because we've an objective to "repair paths" in the lakes and if we don't fulfill that objective we'll be out of a job."

A man who's paypacket relies on him not understanding something is completely immune to *any* logical argument.

got engaged and tried to make the repairs more sympathetic to the needs of MTBers?

What would you suggest we ask for?

The preferred option of course is always to leave it alone... Failing that my proposal would be to put jumps and berms in

Can you imagine the response to that suggestion !!

What you ask for is a design that reduces potential conflict. The last time I came down the Three Rivers descent I had a chat with some walkers, we all agreed that the "design" would lead to incidents as there's now a couple of very fast smooth blind corners especially when the bracken is in full growth.

Adding "features" that are of interest to mountain bikers doesn't necessarily mean reducing access to other users.

How many of you that are moaning have got engaged and tried to make the repairs more sympathetic to the needs of MTBers? I bet not a single one of you has ever done so either with practical help or lobbying.

You'd lose that bet and I'd suggest winding your neck in a bit and/or informing yourself better of the specific situation re. MTB advocacy in the Lakes.

Adding “features” that are of interest to mountain bikers doesn’t necessarily mean reducing access to other users.

Nope

We don't want features or gravel

As soon as you mess with it in any way you kill the wildness which draws people to real mountains

I personally love the fact that some bits may just not be ridable. It adds to the adventure (and I am sure most proper hikers appreciate more challenging trails also)

We have trail centres for stony paths and "features"

ndthorton.  What actually happens is folk walk alongside the eroded path widening it.  repair the path and they walk on it.  I have seen this so many times and I have had to say to mtbers " please ride on the path not alongside it".  Same with swerving around puddles.

Unless paths are maintained and repaired then the erosion simply gets worse and worse.

And those unrideable bits mean that you keep your average speed way down - which reduces conflict with walkers.

Walkers who love the natural, broken, difficult paths that have been bringing them into the mountains for years.

You know - to escape "manicured" environments and disappear into the little wilderness that is left for us.

Cha****ng - if you have been involved then good for you.  Its what is needed.

Chevy - its not wilderness.  Its a managed man made landscape!  there is no wilderness in the UK.  Its all managed and man made.  Every bit ( bar a few remnants of Caledonian forest)

@tjagain - your argument is fallacious (and ignores my response to this point earlier - presumeably because you find it inconvenient).

There's only so "wide" a path will ever get.  People aren't just going to walk or ride wider and wider ad-infinitum until the whole countryside becomes path.    The width of paths is essentially down to the number of people using them and intelligent acceptance of that fact is what is required - not the absolute trashing of what makes those paths popular in the first place with tonnes of gravel and slate.

There's a sad human sickness of "something must be done" when, in most of these cases, nothing is that something.

Edit:  I take your point about "wilderness".  But "manicured" it ain't.  Which is what's happening.

The logical endpoint of that argument could easily be "tarmac the paths - it lasts longer and it's not wilderness anyway".   It's clearly about "feel" as much as use.  But the "repairs" that are being done "feel" wrong to many and also interfere with their use - mostly detrimentally in the eyes of the major user groups - walkers and mountain bikers.

Farmers?  That's a different discussion.  But walkers and mountain bikers for the most part are disgusted.

I rode it today and I have to say it was 100 times less appealing than it used to be.

Is it like that all the way down? How wet was everything over there today, BTW?

Chevychase - utter nonsense.  I have seen tracks become 30 m wide eroded scars.

Its well proven that properly repaired paths reduce erosion and stop braiding

Aye, through a bog TJ, this track was about 8 feet wide, and pretty much all bedrock and is still that width...

Why do you continue to argue about trails you dont even know?.

It's not so long ago you said you'd never rode in the lakes, but didn't think it looked very good. 🤣🤣🤣

@chevychase - the "old" path from the New Dungeon Gill up to Stickle tarn was on the true right of the beck and got to be about 50m wide at some points. It was just a massive scar that could be seen from way down the valley (I don't think it was all walkers, from memory there were one or two small becks it crossed that eroded things). In the early to mid 1980s the LDNP did work on the path on the opposite bank then basically shut the old path and reseeded it. The only people who go that way these days are the runners on the Langdale Horseshoe Fell Race plus maybe a few who wander up it for old time's sake.

Similarly the path up the front Brown Tongue to Scafell Pike got pretty wide but just from footfall. There used to be a little known path to the right (looking up) that was much quieter. The LDNP upgraded this path with set stones and then shut the path up the front.

Why do you continue to argue about trails you dont even know?.

This. Honestly, you're nearly as bad as you used to be.

The more this happens, the more people will ride (and to a certain extent walk) off piste.

**** em. If you know something good, ride it now. In ten years it is either going to be sanitised or covered in houses.

I have walked a lot in the lakes and the erosion upsets me - the state of the trails since I was a kid to now.

I also get irritated by the entitled MTBers that insist that an eroded mess is the best thing going and that walkers want these eroded messes when all the actual evidence states other wise.  I just hate seeing these eroded scvars on the lanscape and people like the OPs attitude towards path repair

But point taken - I'll shut up.  It ain't gonna convince folk anyway.

Regardless of what side of this particular dick-fencing battle you find yourself on, that looks like a shit bit of work.

Dick fencing would look better. Perhaps with some tit bollards

And a hairy fanny gap jump.

when tracks are repaired like that I walk and ride alongside the track, leading to more erosion – because I don’t want to walk or ride on that stuff.

I’m not alone.

And it's this type of tossery that is going to get hard won access revoked for others.  That's not responsible access at all.

It's not responsible trail "repair" - so it kinda balances out.