[Closed] Another LBS shutting down; Wiggle and CRC

I think the key is learning to adapt to changing markets.

You cannot just keep doing the same thing. Just look at the high Street at all the closed chains. If you don't adapt then you go bust.

My lbs stopped selling bikes around 10 years ago. It just does repairs.

Although I can do most stuff, some times I just don't have the time so I leave it with them. They are competitive on prices so if they have it or can get it I buy from them when I can.

I'm not saying every lbs should do this but it's worked for them in an area surrounded by bike shops offering 30% discount on the latest models. (West Yorkshire)

I was in halfords yesterday buying a car seat not bike bits. There was a customer asking how much something was, they told him the price, he started haggling but they couldn't do anything on the price. He then went on line, found it cheaper and got them to price match. Your lbs just can't compete with this type of business.

When aire Valley cycles closed down in Keighley a couple of independent bike repair shops opened up in the area. Hopefully the staff will find new jobs.

The government needs to look at business rates. This really isn't helping the high Street and the lbs. I know one shop opened up on the 1st floor and used the ground floor for storage as it does a lot on the Internet, I think that saved them around £8k in business rates not being on street level.

Evans went out of business (effectively) because it had been loaded up with debt to make money for its VC owners not because it wasn't a fundamentally profitable business.

Your LBS is suffering from a sea change in purchasing and supply models. And from a government which apparently is the one that understands business but is from my viewpoint doing everything it can to destroy commercial activities by people who don't contribute privately to the party's members.

Wiggle and CRC were both small independent bike shops originally. You can't blame them just because they adapted first. Plenty of other bike shops are still trading, if not flourishing. The world has changed, we all have to adapt and change.

I usually check prices with my local store before buying online, but the differences are usually just too big to ignore. Last thing was a set of 3x7 ez-fire shifters to replace revoshift on my kids bike.

£13.99 online, £39.99 in the lbs.  and that’s the kind of difference I’m seeing on other parts. It’s not just a 10-25% bricks and mortar premium, it’s literally 50-100%

mainly to drool at their stock and generally browse.

No no wonder if you don't buy anything, as above though really they need to change as CRC is here to stay.

Specialisum / adaptability and customer service. Any retailer has to do these things to survive the online culture we currently have.

Although not a bike shop (village shop) i've spent the last 3 years improving my shop customer base since buying it form the previous owners. Trade is up 40%, but Ive reached a plateaux so now need to adapt to expand. It's about knowing when and how to adapt.

I remember when crc was a small shop running a mail order advert in the back of MBUK. They made a point of under cutting all of the competition even if it were by £1. They were quick to adapt to online when it came about. That's how they became the largest bike shop in the world.

When aire Valley cycles closed down in Keighley a couple of independent bike repair shops opened up in the area.

Aire Valley really annoyed me. They used to have an ace shop, sold all sorts of bikes to everyone (I’ve bought retro MTB’s on more than one occasion with their dealer sticker still on) and had a half decent unit near the centre. Proper family bike shop.

I went in one day when they had moved and it was all higher end stuff, the staff seemed aloof and not interested in talking to me. I needed a fairly standard at the time 27.2 post, nothing fancy just a Kalloy or Ritchey one (which most shops had on the shelf) and they just turned their nose up at me and said that they didn’t sell stuff like that. The parking was hard to figure out and it was a more out of the centre. No one to blame but themselves in my opinion.

CRC got government/enterprise funding on account of their location.

That’s how they became the largest bike shop in the world.

It always seemed to me that the Cycle Room was a top end,well appointed shop in an expensive location catering to a fairly small market..in my view very much a 'fashion' shop...it's when grass root bike shops that are part of the local scene give it up ,like the Bike Store in Worthing, that when you realise things are changing...

I see that Bike Store's premises is now to be a micro brewery,named The Old Bike Store Brewery,next to the closed down pub..the face of change.

My LBS is flourishing. They stock a lot of high end (Specialized) bikes but mainly sell high end city bikes and Thule Chariot trailers to the local affluent middle class. They have a fairly huge workshop with at least four mechanics working at anyone time and very often you need to book an appointment 4 weeks in advance. Their floor space is big too but then they pay reasonable rents as the building is owned by a housing association rather than a greedy fat West German. They also refuse to price match with online retailers and explain to customers why. They do however price match with other LBSs.

'The cycle room' probably weren't helped by people taking their custom to Freeborn bikes (also in Horsham) for the much better level of service.

Still not sure anyone has addressed the detail about the LBS being needed to service and maintain the bikes of people who can't do it themselves.

I'm by no means attacking or defending Wiggle, CRC, online, etc, but the LBS offered help for fixing bikes, in-person.

Online can't do that unless you're willing to watch Youtube vids etc which the run-of-the-mill cyclist probably doesn't do? So what happens when there are no LBS to fix bikes because they can't pay rent when competing with the likes of Amazon and CRC, Wiggle etc? Where will folks get their bikes fixed?

‘The cycle room’ probably weren’t helped by people taking their custom to Freeborn bikes (also in Horsham) for the much better level of service.

Is that the one a bit further up the road? Small place, frames hanging in the window? Haven't been in yet, but I suspected as much (Horsham isn't local for me, so I don't have a need for an LBS in Horsham!)

In terms of LBS price matching, obviously with overheads it very hard to do and make any sort of margin.

Some branded items eg Fox forks that aren’t widely discounted can be and most shops might fit them for you included in the price.

The most profitable shops have thriving workshops - that’s where the money is made and long term stability is achieved.

If a shop is offering no more than just handing over an item I ask for why would I pay more for it, have to drive their, pay parking etc,. etc,.  Shops need to offer something above just selling an item.  The death of the high street is nonsense, it is just the death of formulaic shops that offer nothing more than I can get online.

A shop needs to offer more, for example a skate shop close to me sell decks, trucks, completes etc,. but also has a mini ramp in the shop along with drinks and food.  Seems pretty busy most of the time.

They could have just setup a standard shop selling skateboards and would have been another of the shops closed down because of 'the internet'

Blaming wiggle for lowering prices is an easy out.

Just looking at their website - branding yourself with the word 'premium' is such a marketing own goal that's already going to make you appeal to a small market.

The opening times are laughable for a retail business - especially one in the London commuter belt. All those people you want to enjoy your 'premium' shop are 35 miles away when it's open.

Retail of any kind is tough, and you've got to stay ahead of the game and give customers what they want. I get the impression the actual business side is a second thought with bike shops a lot of the time and  'doing my hobby as a job' and bikes at trade prices are the main drivers.

My LBS offers physio, fitness coaching and bike fits. All things you can't buy online.

You also don't need a shop to fix or service bikes. I know a number of people around the country who are professional one man bike servicing operations. They have all the equipment and work from home, collecting or receiving bikes. All of them are busy and have great reputations. You just need to find them as you will not walk past a shop front. That's the future for many in my experience.

Your first paragraph explains why...you go and look, but don't buy.

LBS around the corner: big shop selling tons of super expensive high end bikes. Their bikes start from 3 k and end at 9 k.

I only go there to see some extremely ugly bikes and e-bikes and to scratch my head...- no idea how they are able to find these customers with the deep pockets.

Personally turned to internet shops and we fix our stuff in our biking group. Fun as well.

Is that the one a bit further up the road? Small place, frames hanging in the window? Haven’t been in yet, but I suspected as much (Horsham isn’t local for me, so I don’t have a need for an LBS in Horsham!)

No, they are a bit further out but worth hunting out.

Bike shops near me seem to be thriving on being different. One sells lesser known brands and is very visible to the local community, one sells vintage and exhire refurbs. Then we have the prison bike charity reclaiming old bikes and selling them cheap. Some quality retro stuff in there. I dont think id be able to buy a dropper post or disc pads in any of them, so there's no conflict with online really.

I wonder how many of these 'thriving' LBS actually have thriving accounts? A busy workshop during the (peak) summer season may not be enough on it's own to sustain it through the winter months.

The problem with online sales is the same across most of the (struggling) High Street sales industry - RRP (the price set to give a usable margin for all involved) is now a meaningless figure, used only to illustrate the size of the permanent discount. We're so used to the race-to-the-bottom discount culture that seeing anything at 'full' retail price elicits cries of "rip off!".

On the one hand, diversification (coffee shop, spin sessions) seems the answer but that can require huge investment of time and money - added risk to a start-up and added pressure on an existing business trying to do more than just 'survive'. Plus, at the end of the day, if one part of the business is being carried by the others what's the motivation to carry it on (e.g. bike sales). Yes, some will get the formula right.. but they will be in the minority and you will have to travel further and further afield to find them.

The future of biking is likely to be one of adapt to survive.. but it may be the consumer that has to adapt in the wake of less choice when it comes to services.

(wow, that was gloomy!)

Why is everyone* in such a hurry to blame crc wiggle Evans etc (or Amazon and so on in other markets)? No-one is forced to buy from them, it's the consumer who is demanding low prices, no markup and zero profit in the middle who are killing all these businesses nothing else.

*not actually everyone but lots of people, time and again.

Online can’t do that unless you’re willing to watch Youtube vids etc which the run-of-the-mill cyclist probably doesn’t do? So what happens when there are no LBS to fix bikes because they can’t pay rent when competing with the likes of Amazon and CRC, Wiggle etc? Where will folks get their bikes fixed?

If there is a demand for it then enough shops will survive to serve that demand. If not then they won't. Bike shops aren't anything special compared to any other retailer or service provider. If there is money there to be made then someone will take advantage of that.

Can’t blame wiggle/crc. They’re a fairly new business, so the setup and running costs will be disproportionately high compared to established shops. They’re shut too much, they could adapt but the problem tends to be funding the adaption. Just expanding to opening decent hours, minimum 9-6 I’d say 6 days a week puts a big chunk of staff cost on the overhead.

We all face the same issues in retail, the only way of competing is to offer something you can’t get online, because quite bluntly if you can click a button on amazon and get a product tomorrow morning for half the price of driving to a shop, parking etc then why wouldn’t you. Retailers moan that people don’t support them but it’s a 2 way street. It’s all about service and adding value. Often well sell a product at little/no margin or even a loss if we have to - but it’s all about the long game with customers and turning stock over to keep the cash flow going. Other items at high margin like repairs, products you can’t buy online or compare price of offset this.

I wonder how many of these ‘thriving’ LBS actually have thriving accounts?

Me too. My local shop seems to do well, they do shop rides that are always well attended and give me a free coffee after and sell me cake. I hope its working out for them. I tend to buy the odds and sods I might have got online from them as I'm in the shop anyway, tubes, lube etc but they certainly wont get rich off me!

My local bike shop is on a small industrial unit on a local farm. He's a one man band, doing primarily repairs, with his wife supporting on the admin. I presume this all makes overheads much cheaper.

The service is brilliant, and if you need your bike by a certain date, 9 times out of 10 that will happen. He'll fit piddly little jobs like replacing a spoke in between other jobs for you.

He's really friendly and honest with his advice. He'll tell you what he thinks is a waste of money and what he uses on his bike  and I completely trust him not to rip me off. In fact, he'll offer to let me buy the components from CRC and pay him to fit them (I don't).

He rides locally a lot in events and stuff, so gets to know people and he's good on Facebook.

Stock is smart too. Interesting brands that aren't mega money (Orro for example, that look excellent bikes and all of a sudden you're seeing quite a few of them riding locally as word of mouth spreads).

That's a model that's working and actually he's refitting the shop currently to stock more items, so the business must be doing okay.

It took me ages to find a bike shop that I genuinely loved. These are the ones that will survive.

For me the biggest issue both for the long term survival of LBSs and environmentally is the mindset of the broader british public (i.e. beyond the people you see here or the herds of mamils or the trail centre car park) as to what constitutes a bike worth buying. A couple of generations now have bought BSOs from supermarkets, DIY stores or the bottom end of Halfords range. Economically they make little sense to repair and actually doing the repair/maintenance is a nightmare as mostly made of cheese. Unless substantial numbers of people value bike ownership enough to buy bikes worth sending to a local repair shop or reselling I don't think it's a sustainable business model. In a perfect world new bike purchases should be kept to a minimum with repair and 2nd hand sales being the LBS main trade.

This shopped that closed down what was there service like, there is a lot of riders where they are based so must me something else cant only be online dealers.  Unless all they done was sold bikes then surprise surprise, its a shame people will lose their jobs though.

"Unless substantial numbers of people value bike ownership enough to buy bikes worth sending to a local repair shop or reselling I don’t think it’s a sustainable business model. In a perfect world new bike purchases should be kept to a minimum with repair and 2nd hand sales being the LBS main trade."

The change is coming if you take a look at the student community.  Lots have decent value bikes to get around on and the days of them having a car is nearly over.  When they move into the 'real world' of work a lot will start off using the bike they relied on for uni and only replace with a car if they have to.  An increasing amount of young people aren't even learning to drive as they have either no need or the costs are too much for them.  Give it a decade and I have a feeling that bicycle use, especially in our cities will be up  by a big margin.  Once the humble bicycle is seen as a viable long-term transportation option people will value it and be happy to pay for quality at purchase time and in maintenance.  If a bike shop can tap into that market effectively they should be profitable.  How a rural shop can tap into this market I don't know.

The change is coming if you take a look at the student community. Lots have decent value bikes to get around on and the days of them having a car is nearly over. When they move into the ‘real world’ of work a lot will start off using the bike they relied on for uni and only replace with a car if they have to. An increasing amount of young people aren’t even learning to drive as they have either no need or the costs are too much for them.

Most the ones I see aren't on bikes, they are using uber. It's no wonder they can't afford to learn to drive the amount they must be splashing on uber.

Dumb

The honest reality is that most bike shops are average at best, have no USP,  no people skills, questionable mechanical abilities and a sense of expectation that we should ‘support the LBS’ regardless.   Yes there are some shining exceptions but they are in my experience very rare things.

This -^

Plus, it's cheaper and easier to get stuff online.

in response to jonnyboi above.

I find it fascinating that Edinburgh has a load of bike shops - seems far too many for the population but somehow most seem to be doing fine,  The key is they all have USPs of some sort and have targeted markets that work for them.  Even been a couple of new startups one of which is expanding into bigger premises so its clearly possible to run a bike shop in this day and age

its clearly possible to run a bike shop in this day and age

i agree, and have plenty of money and a will to spend  with one that has more than a cursory interest in my custom

LBS 1.   Made me feel like an inconvenience for buying a new bike from him.  I only go there when I’m desperate for stuff urgently.  He stocks well at good prices but is just too fickle, and I’m not the only one to feel this way about him.

LBS 2 - damaged my bike and tried to hide it.

LBS 3 - damaged my bike and admitted he didn’t know what he was doing (hub work)

LBS 4 - said he could do a job he couldn’t, ended up farming it out to tftuned and charging me for the privilege including a months wait.

currently serving a specialized hotrock I bought second hand from someone I know. He admitted the gears have been awful since new. Upon checking it I can see the rear mech has been fitted in front of the mech hanger tab, it also came from a lbs.

My experiences are aligned with much of the above.  While it's sad to see some long running shops close (nostalgia and sympathy for owners/staff), it's inevitable when others are providing the service I want cheaper.

When re-introduced myself to cycling 15 years ago, I quickly learnt that bike shops in West Yorkshire were mostly very expensive compared to online offerings and/or mechanically inept with of focus on service that implied they were doing you a favour.  Add to that I have to physically travel to said shop (which often open 9am to 5.30 pm in the week and close on Sunday) it's not compelling.

Buy online from wherever is cheapest, do all repairs and maintenance yourself.   I'm not the target market for a bike shop, and I suspect many are just like me.

Retail is always changing, however the internet isn't new, it's just consumers who have grown up only knowing the high street are becoming fewer and those who have grown up with online retail are more becoming dominant.  Online now has few barriers to entry, a smart phone provides all you need.

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Probably the same shop that Damascus is talking about but my LBS only sells parts and does repairs, it seems to do well and there's always somebody in there.

I worked for a company that sold bikes online, I'm not sure if it's still doing as well but we'd ship £50 bikes per day, on the run up to Christmas this would increase to as many as 500, all pretty low end stuff but people just like the convenience and lower cost.

@jaylittle. That's one of the problems for most lbs.

I bought this £50 bike but its broken after I dropped it on the floor. Yes, we can service it, replace the broken rear mech and rusty cable and put you a new tyre on, that will be £50. Customer just thinks you are ripping them off. Sometimes it's cheaper to buy new at that price than repair it.

It's funny because I tried very hard to give the shop belugabob mentions money becuase he was mentioned a few times on here as pretty good.  He is probably okay if you are in the shop but he responded to one email and then stopped.  All he had to do was answer the question (do you have xx bike in size x) and he would have had the money that day.  Another shop, the owner of which posts on here occasionally has been really helpful although didnt have the size I wanted but he'll be my first stop when I want something else.

Crc and wiggle cant answer simple questions based on thing s like the difference between inseam and cycling inseam. If you know exactly what you want crc is fine.

One if the problems for lbs is that they can't really afford one mistake - the margins are too fine (see example above) crc and wiggle have sufficient volume not to worry about 3/10 customers bit getting the help they want and going elsewhere.

I've heard that selling new cars is practically charitable for dealers (eg 400 quid profit on a brand new vehicle) but used sales and servicing is where money can be made. Despite gigantic ad spend by franchised dealers, there are still thousands of trusted independent garages (and a few crap ones).

Maybe that's the model for the LBS bike trade: new bike sales are a sideline (perhaps they can advise people on what to order online and take a few percent with an affiliate code), but refurb sales and maintenance are the focus? You'd need a smaller shop and less money tied up in floor stock...

I really think that most lbs are missing a trick by not taking part ex.

Can’t blame wiggle/crc. They’re a fairly new business, so the setup and running costs will be disproportionately high compared to established shops.

Not really. Local bikes shops have to be close to the foot fall of customers, which invariably means rents are sky high. You've got to carry stock at all times, the mechanic can be sitting on his proverbial all day not 'earning', heating, lights etc. You've got to buy a lot of workshop tools and do a lot fo work just to cover their costs.Can't imagine you get much discount ordering two XT rear mechs a year.

Wiggle/CRC et al can be on an industrial estate in the middle of Mordor, they don't need to be near any customer base. Potentially even a one man band with a load of boxes in the garage if you bother to have a fancy website, who is to know. Might even get a nice grant from the council. Don't need skilled staff, just box packers.

I'd gues a lot of us buy from supermarkets these day (I'm sure there are some that buy from local markets ona Sunday) but bet 90/95% of the general public use the top four supermarkets - they just took over the local corner shops market through scale.

Don't know what the answer is. Maybe some can survive on the top end market. MAybe there will be a bit of an Amazon/Wiggle backlash in the future (though I think Amazon will only get it for the tax, not the fact they are selling stuff cheaper than locally).

Will be a shame, most of the ike shops round my neck of the woods have bitten the dust.

I really think that most lbs are missing a trick by not taking part ex.

I'm not sure if there is a massive market for second hand stuff. Servicing a car is almost a requirement (especially as you'll need to MOT it once a year). Stick a fivers worth of oil in a car and charge 100 quid for it (and a health check!) won't work for bikes I'd say. Any friends who aren't massively into bikes but own one basically run them into the ground (or I replace the rusted up chain...).

Selling cars is, in the case of the smaller econoboxes, actually charity.  They lose money on them but they bring customers into the brand fold and feed the service side.  Service is what keeps many dealerships alive.

If bike brands ran their own dealerships you can be sure they would use proprietary fasteners and parts so that only they could service your bike.  Why do you think car manufacturers fight so hard to keep the knowledge and parts and tools out of the hands of independent garages and end users?

As mentioned above, part exchange doesn't work so well for push bikes, they are seen as toys or luxuries not a necessary commodity (like a car), so the desire for second hand is there but not in the demand, nor the price, people are willing to support.

if my LBS invested in customer service then i'd use them more.

unfortunately they never tell you how long the bike will take, they slot in a time, and it forever changes, then a week later you go in and the bike (a) isn't ready or (B) its been ready 5 days.

its also more roady focussed, although have a good range of mtb and commuter (from £200-£10k), so being road bike its always rammed in summer, using them all year round i'd expect a little favouritism than looking after the fair weather mamils..

i like the idea of fitness / physio services.

I really think that most lbs are missing a trick by not taking part ex.

This and then also stripping bikes to sell second hand parts, I look after my family bikes and would quite happily put second hand parts on their bikes cranks, wheels etc they'll never notice the difference and a second hand part will prob last longer than the cheapest new part.

The opening times are laughable for a retail business – especially one in the London commuter belt. All those people you want to enjoy your ‘premium’ shop are 35 miles away when it’s open.

Yes, nuts to be just down the road from a big commuter station but not open when thousands of people are walking past to or from work each day. I'd do a short or closed day midweek and then try to have at least one early morning and late close. Must be plenty of people mooching around the shops on a Sunday too that will find it closed - my two local bike shops are open 11-4 on a Sunday because all the shops around them are too and they pick up plenty of passing trade.

Make it convenient for people to drop in a bike or wheel for service, or to pick up some bits for the weekend ride when they're passing anyway and they won't care so much about the price. Make it a ballache and it's easier just to order off the internet and work out how to fit it yourself.

My LBS has 5 guys working in it and always has punters in when I go in. Not easy to park as on a busy street but worth the effort. Parts may cost a bit more but I’ll happily pay that to keep shop open and people in work locally to me. Good advice for free, they ride road, mtb, bikepacking, cycle cross. Picton Cycles in Wavertree Liverpool if any scousers need a bikeshop