[Closed] Another car/bike crash. Who was at fault here?

not sure tbh on that, wonder what his response would have been if it had been a copper he pulled in front of

at end of day he was still changing lanes without looking regardless of fact you were coming from behind

He says I was overtaking somewhere I shouldn't.
I say he should he have signalled. And should have checked his mirror

You're both right.
Yay! 😀

My view would be that 50/50 and handshakes all round is about the right outcome. He should have looked and indicated, but 25mph is a very fast speed to be filtering at.

All my opinion, of course.

[s]Edit: Durr - didn't read OP properly. Separate lanes puts much more onus on him, and much more freedom for you to approach at 20+. Glad you're not too badly hurt.[/s]

Double Edit: Just ignore me, I'm confused and elderly...

I'd say his fault, but would be good practice not to overtake when its likely a car might turn like that.

I'd say you were funking nuts to overtake there TBH, but there you go 😉

The road markings show that your are permitted to overtake. Whether doing so on a bike is sensible however is a different matter.
Matey turning without checking mirror or indicating is driving without due care and attention isn't it ?

^^^^^ this (woodys post that is)

Years of riding motorbikes makes me nervous seeing someone on a push bike or a motorcycle overtaking across a junction

Colleague died doing just this on a fireblade

Glad you're ok

lots of case law here. Upshot seems to be that the OP was in the wrong.

[url= http://www.access-legal.co.uk/legal-news/accidents-involving-filtering-what-the-law-says-lu-2811.htm ]http://www.access-legal.co.uk/legal-news/accidents-involving-filtering-what-the-law-says-lu-2811.htm[/url]

50/50 - I would not overtake a line of traffic that *may* turn right, but he should check mirror and signal.
.
I was taught to assume that the other driver will always do the least expected thing, or opposite of what they signal, and general stoopidity.

Not a particularly ludicrous place to overtake IMO. The driver was clearly at fault for failing to indicate and not checking his mirrors and blindspot.

If there was no side road and no oncoming traffic then using the other lane to pass at 25mph would be alright I reckon but that speed at a turning, with oncoming traffic doesn't leave you much room for error.

Imagine if you were driving and overtook a cyclist, while doing 25, there. If the cyclist tried to make a right turn without looking or signaling and 'met' the car whose fault would it be?

Agree with others above, 50/50.

Why didn't you undertake the queue of cars? That would've been the safer option in this situation surely.

EDIT: Actually no, what were you thinking?? next car turns right: bang! next car carries straight on, you will quickly start being undertaken yourself, whilst you are on the wrong side of the road and will have to get yourself back to the right road position which means looking over your shoulder whilst in the path of on-coming traffic. Silly boy.

Why didn't you undertake the queue of cars? That would've been the safer option in this situation surely.

Or, maybe, just maybe, wait a couple of minutes? 😀

bails makes a good point.

Personally I'd say you were right to shake and leave it at that. The driver should have been indicating and should have checked mirrors before turning, however IMHO you shouldn't have been overtaking at 25mph and should have been expecting the worst.

I think you were both acting without due care and attention.

Why didn't you undertake the queue of cars? That would've been the safer option in this situation surely

EDIT: Actually no, what were you thinking?? next car turns right: bang! next car carries straight on, you will quickly start being undertaken yourself, whilst you are on the wrong side of the road and will have to get yourself back to the right road position which means looking over your shoulder whilst in the path of on-coming traffic. Silly boy

woody2000 - Member
Why didn't you undertake the queue of cars? That would've been the safer option in this situation surely.
Or, maybe, just maybe, wait a couple of minutes?

Oh yeah, was just about to say that... 😳

Now you have re-galed us with more facts I wish to withdraw my "silly boy" comment.

This-

The road markings show that your are permitted to overtake. Whether doing so on a bike is sensible however is a different matter.
Matey turning without checking mirror or indicating is driving without due care and attention isn't it ?

Mirrors = life savers.

Yours by quite a large margin. You're very lucky to not be injured and also not on the receiving end of a large repair bill to his car.

Speshpaul - Member

This-

The road markings show that your are permitted to overtake.

No they don't. 💡

It's basic highway code stuff; don't overtake past junctions.

Its his fault, but you should've anticipated.

Q - The car in front has its right indicator on, what does it definately mean?

A - His indicator works...

i usually try not to get involved in these… however:

it's not a car/bike crash - it's two road-users. if cars treated us like road-users with a right to be out (and safe) on the roads, things would be much better on the whole.

flip side is that we should all ride that way, all the time! it's hard to do sometimes…

you were the road user overtaking, with all the attendant responsibilities, and doing so at what sounds like a 25mph closing speed. sadly, this makes it your fault. imo.

he didn't check before turning, so it's his fault too.

now, i'm off out for a ride, and to try to live up to my own high and mighty morals.

I would have came to a stop behind the last car in the queue.

[quote=sbob said] Speshpaul - Member
This-
The road markings show that your are permitted to overtake.
No they don't.
It's basic highway code stuff; don't overtake past junctions.

Why don't the road markings go "solid" at road junctions then ?

Ignoring the legals of it and based on your description I'd say it was a bloody stupid thing to do.

You know car drivers don't look and indicate properly as a matter of
routine and there's no pressure on them currently to do otherwise.

So to filter at speed past a line of traffic by a junction is opening yourself up to getting hit.

Whether the driver was wrong to not look and indicate properly is neither here nor there IMO - you're too vulnerable as a cyclist to make moves like that.

Glad you're unhurt and willing to learn the lesson however. IMO the stupid people are the ones who jump up and down in righteous anger and fail to see how they contributed to the accident...

I'd like to change my entry to 50:50

I had similar on my ducati last year. The car turned for a supermarket which meant he overtook 3 cars before the turning to the right. It went 100% in my favour

allthepies - Member

Why don't the road markings go "solid" at road junctions then ?

If you couldn't cross the line it wouldn't be a junction. 😉

But to clarify; stating that the paint on the road says you are permitted to overtake is indicative of a poor attitude towards safe road use, and is incorrect.

Agree with others above, 50/50.

I don't. Your fault.
As a motorcyclist as well, you just DON'T overtake where there is a right turn. You just don't do it.
ESPECIALLY where there is a line of cars, indicating or not.

Plus, you're overtaking. The onus is on you to make a safe overtake. It wasn't EVER safe because of the potential right turn.
I think you got off lightly.
Sorry 🙂

I'll bit then sbob
back that up please.
"stating that the paint on the road says you are permitted to overtake"
so by your logic over taking on a double white line is ok then?

And
"allthepies - Member
Why don't the road markings go "solid" at road junctions then ?
If you couldn't cross the line it wouldn't be a junction."
Most stops as opposed to give ways have solid white lines.

as for no over taking near junctions? where a rule /law saying that?
Urban best practice is one thing.
hey but then so is mirror signal manoeuvre. which would be where the car driver failed here- 33% is not the pass mark

Thanks for the replies guys.
Would it be fair to sumerise it as:
"He was wrong to not signal or check his mirror but that I was doing a risky thing regardless of who's fault it was"?
A little shaken at the time but feeling fine now, shoulder still hurts though, just bruised though, it moves OK.

Regardless of 'who's fault was it', I prefer to think 'could this hurt me?'.
If the answer is yes, then I try not to do it.

SpeshPaul,

I'm not sure exactly what your first point is about as you have snipped my quote so it doesn't make sense and then replied with a crazy conclusion about my logic which also doesn't make sense, but returning to your first post;
which road marking does permit overtaking?

The second bit was an attempt at humour.

Highway Code rule 167.

as for no over taking near junctions? where a rule /law saying that?

Are you shittin' me?
Are you REALLY that dumb you can't see that being on the offside of a vehicle near a right turn isn't terminally stupid? Do you REALLY need a law saying that?

I don't know if there is a rule saying that but it's common sense, it shouldn't need saying.

EDIT

[url= https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/overtaking-162-to-169 ]DO NOT overtake ......where traffic is queuing at junctions or road works[/url]

OP's fault. He shouldn't have been there.
It's pretty plain that most people here only cycle and have never been taught to ride a bike. TBH I give up. As far as I can see it's natural selection in operation.

The OP has put himself in a position where he is only safe so long as every driver indicates and checks their mirrors. 😯

This is not a very good position to be in.

I'm glad no one was badly hurt

andrewh - Member

He says I was overtaking somewhere I shouldn't.
I say he should he have signalled.

[img] [/img]

Your fault imo.
Highway code 167 says

[i]Do not overtake blah blah conflict with other road users. For example,

Approaching or at a road junction on either side of the road[/i]

What was the blokes road positioning like? I always get as far to the right of my lane when driving as I can when turning right. It prevents blocking people behind if there is room to pass on the left while I wait & it is also a fairly clear hint that I will be turning right. Although I try to use my indicators at all times too.

The OP has put himself in a position where he is only safe so long as every driver indicates and checks their mirrors.

This is not a very good position to be in

Not dumb enough to put a gas pipe through my ear.

Highway is a guide not the law although it my contain law's. If a section uses the term "might" probably not a law.

So you've never passed another vehicle near a junction?
yer sure you haven't.

I can site two cases locally where the driver who turned right whilst being overtaken were proscetuted - well one went to court and one took a course.

sbob. still don't see you backing up you're white line comments.
But to clarify; arrangance is indicative of a poor attitude towards safe road use, and is incorrect

OP put himself in a risky situation reagardless of rights or wrongs. Chillax and get to work in one piece is my advice!

Speshpaul....you are right. Must/must not are generally things that you can be prosecuted for, whereas do/do not etc. are advisory. But, these rules can still be used to assess liability.

It's all very well saying it's not the law, but if more people followed the highway code there would be less accidents like the OP has had.
Yay, the OP has not broken the law...! Oh, but he's bruised, has scratched up a car & probably damaged his bike too. What a result...

if your question about passing another car at a junction was aimed at me, then I can't recall ever overtaking a line of cars at a junction, whether in my car or on my bike. EDIT - I would do this on the approach to a t-junction or a set of traffic lights in my bike, as any manoeuvre would only occur at the lights or junction itself. Again, if in doubt I would cease the manoeuvre. I would also stick to a low speed, to have more chance of stopping should something I had not foreseen occur.
I have undertaken cars in this situation, but generally they will have slowed significantly on the approach (whether indicating or not), hence I would have also slowed to a more appropriate passing speed. If in any doubt I would wait.
Cars turning left, again I would assess their intentions based on indicators, road position, decelerating, looking in mirror etc. If I was happy they were indeed turning left I would overtake, but give them a wide berth in case they decide to carry straight on. I would also not overtake until they had slowed significantly and I would be in a gear that would enable me to pass them as quickly as possible.

I'd say his fault, you crossed the (presumably dashed) lines and were in the other lane, he then pulled accross that lane without giving way.

Agree with others though, no point being right and dead. I'd not have overtaken there.

*which is what a dashed line is telling you to do, a double dashed line is telling you to give way twice e.g. turning right minor to major road, you don't pull out halfway when it's clear and block the lane, the double line is telling you to wait untill both lanes are clear. A solid line is obviously stop (or do not cross).

Speshpaul - Member

sbob. still don't see you backing up you're white line comments.
But to clarify; arrangance is indicative of a poor attitude towards safe road use, and is incorrect

When trying to be clever, it is normally best not to look stupid. 😆

I'll ask you again:
[b]Which road marking permits overtaking?[/b]

You'll get there eventually...

I've had a few car incidents in my time, 2 my fault, 4 the other guy's fault.

Your track record doesnt really suggest that you are much good at avoiding situations. Being in the right or it being "the other guy's fault" does not mean that the accident couldnt have been avoided by you choosing a less risky approach.

Why do you think that insurance premia increase even for those in accidents through no fault of their own?

I've had a few car incidents in my time, 2 my fault, 4 the other guy's fault

Being in the right or it being "the other guy's fault" does not mean that the accident couldnt have been avoided by you choosing a less risky approach.

sbob yes you are right, best not to make yourself look stupid, but i'm affraid you've done the damage already.

if you read the post you'll see.... oh well.

white lines - overtaking, solid don't, broken do.
the pics show a broke line so they don't preclude overtaking.

still can't beat MSM thou. that is the most basic of all.

That's in 130,000 miles.

Ive been driving for over 20 years, probably about 250,000+ miles, cycled in London every week for the last 15 years and had.....0 incidents, 0 points.
But then Im super. 😀

*frantically touches wood now*

My inner raging biker would have wanted to storm down the outside of the line of traffic as you did... sooo satisfying.

But experience (sounds like you have had more experience than me) should have made you take the reasonable course of losing 30 seconds off your journey time and not falling victim to the 'expected' side swipe.

Whilst out on a bike I try to think like a lazy, fat, distracted, agressive motorist whenever I can. Also sometimes 'would I do this in a car or on a a motorbike?' helps too...

Sorry if it doesn't sound very sympathetic, glad you're not badly hurt.

#couldbedead

*frantically touches wood now*

You're taking the self-congratulation a tad too far with that.

Speshpaul - Member

sbob yes you are right, best not to make yourself look stupid, but i'm affraid you've done the damage already.

if you read the post you'll see.... oh well.

white lines - overtaking, solid don't, broken do.
the pics show a broke line so they don't preclude overtaking.

still can't beat MSM thou. that is the most basic of all.

You are spectacularly missing the point.
The problem highlighted was one of attitude, which you exhibit again, in the above quote.
I'll have another go at explaining it:
What does a 30 sign mean?

Upshot seems to be that the OP was in the wrong.

http://www.access-legal.co.uk/legal-news/accidents-involving-filtering-what-the-law-says-lu-2811.htm

When the most recent case quoted is the well know A40 u-turn one in which the motorist was found to be completely to blame, how do you work that one out? Whilst that article mentions a variety of cases, I'd suggest the conclusions are wrong - those cases where the filtering rider was held largely to blame were a long time ago, since when the law has moved on to considering motorists emerging from junctions to be at fault if they hit a filtering bike even if they are flashed out by another driver. If we're arguing legal liability the A40 case is extremely relevant - that laid the blame totally on the motorist (though this case is slightly different, so the same conclusion might not be reached) http://www.claimssolicitoruk.co.uk/injury-claim-success-stories/motorcycle-filtering-legitimised.php

I still lay some of the blame on the OP, however that does not absolve the driver from being mostly responsible.

Reverse this accident, you're at the front of the queue on your bike and have indicated as you slow down. Drivers behind you have seen this and stopped so you've returned your hands to the handlebars to move off. Car a few behind doesn't see you indicate and overtakes. Wipes you out as you turn right. Would you blame yourself for not checking in this situation or the driver for overtaking? The one overtaking every time.

When turning right the indicator should be on, but it could just have packed in, it could have just self cancelled, it could have been smashed by the last cyclist who hit him. The driver should have looked behind, but whether on a car or bike when turning across oncoming traffic your attention is going to mostly be forward.

I strongly suspect if this had been much less fortunate and the police did get involved and appoint blame the driver would have got a very small part of it.

Stay safe and hope you have a less incident packed trip tomorrow 🙂

OP utterly nuts IMO. Unfortunately, I have done same myself...human nature, innit.

Regardless of the legalities, my logic. has always been to never overtake, undertake or squeeze through slow moving/stationary traffic. The law and my legal rights are completely irrelevant to me if I end up dead, brain damaged or crippled.

Wait 2 minutes in the queue. Ride as if you are driving, I.e. think of car size gaps. If you wouldn't do a manouvre in a 1 ton safety cage, then definitely don't do it on a bike.......

OP is clearly at fault. If you are overtaking you are taking responsibility for the consequences.

So I am with PetePoddy on this.

Glad to know you are ok, I don't understand why it is considered par for the course
1) to overtake in a junction
2) or change lanes in a junction

(I moved here from North America and it is a big NO-NO....)

However as someone said car drivers don't tend to look in their mirrors at such places( I often am guilty of the same when I am suddenly startled by a motorbike that comes hurtling down the side in standstillor crawling traffic.

Still glad to know it ended amicably... hope your shoulder heals fast

Driver should have been indicating but you've got to be mental/have a deathwish to filter on the outside approaching a junction with a right-hand turn.