[Closed] Angle headsets - how slack have people gone?

I've put two on different frames. Most extreme was an Mmmbop, which I measure at 63*, unsagged. It became better in every way: an amazing technical climber and a monster downhill.

64 degrees on my grapil. Combined with a 35mm stem, it's superb pointing down, and surprisingly good going up.

66 degrees on my trance, works well.

I slackened my old mojo hd out by 1.5 deg, it made it more confident downhill, but not as good on flat corners, you really had to make sure your weight was over the front other wise the front wheel would wash out.

I'd be wary of changing the angle too much in future

Wish I hadn't clicked on this thread. Keep having this thought about slacking my Rocket off by a degree or two just as a 'what if...'.

I went from a hardtail which was the stock 66.8 static HA to a new one which was tweaked to 64.3 HA (-2 deg and 130mm fork) and then to 64.9 deg (-0.5 deg and 150mm fork). I think you'll like the change. I went less slack to rein in the front centre length and raise the BB, not because the steering felt too slack.

1.5deg on a 2011 or 2012 Zesty.

No downsides at all, it was fab.

65 on my 29ers, not that I buy headsets that often but I doubt I'll ever buy a straight one again

Thanks for the response. Once they are back in stock I am getting one.

Fitted and test ridden a 2 deg headset on my tallboy lt today. It makes hell of a difference decending, a lot less twitchy and doesn't seem to get 'hung up' on rocks as it did before. The steering is a bit lazier but that's a compromise I'm willing to take. Ascending is fine, apart from my cardio ability.

I'd be curious to know if anyone has done it to a Trek Stache, they've got quite steep head angle, for a modern bike!

Stiffee isn't that slack as standard is it? 68 with a 130mm fork according to Cove and I think that's unsagged.

TBH every time I've done it, I've gone as slack as possible and never felt it's too much. My C456 and my Hemlock both climbed less well but then, they weren't good climbers anyway so it didn't feel like a big loss.

As slack as your frame allows.
I've done a few frames, and never thought about changing back.

I took 1.5 degrees off my XTC Advanced 29'er hard tail, from frightening 71.5 to useable 70.0

Slacker HA, lower BBH, longer front centre,longer wheelbase.

Huge improvement in handling and safety

Best £60 I've spent in years. Works components.

1.5 degrees on my Mega 275 - 1.00 angleset +170mm forks .5 degree. Feels superb now both down and up!

Northwind went proper slack

[img] [/img]

Anyone measured the effect an angleset has on top tube length (and therefore reach)? Thinking about getting one of the -2 Superstar setups but concerned it might make things a bit short

Will reduce the stack slightly and actually make the reach longer.No more than 3-5mm.
Plug some numbers into one of the geometry calculator dohickies.

There's a load of factors that go into it especially depending on whether you need an external bottom cup replacing an internal one... but they all add up to bugger-all difference for reach. Some headsets move the top bearing backwards a little, and obviously slackening the steerer pushes the bars backwards (without actually affecting reach but affecting what I guess you could call effective reach), but if the cups are the same then the front end also lowers slightly and that adds a little reach (the front end may actually rise depending on the parts.

I went from a zero stack bottom cup to a +10 so I reckon I'll be down a couple of mm of reach. Not an amount I can feel, though.

With EC above ZS below anglesets you gain a bit of reach, whilst with ZS/EC above EC below the changes that affect reach tend to cancel out. Even with external lower cups it's less than the change you get from different fork lengths.

I think going for max slackness is a good bet on many older frames but probably not on more modern 27.5 bikes (as they tended to be launched with slacker head angles than the 26 bikes that preceded them). All but the most recent 29 models have had much less trail due to being steeper and having more offset than 27.5 bikes and not enough wheel radius to make up the difference. And lots of 26 bikes weren't that slack.

If I slack out my Spitfire to the max that'll take it to 63.6 deg HA - possibly too extreme for a 140mm bike? I was going to try it but got distracted making hardtails as slack as it!

Fitted and test ridden a 2 deg headset on my tallboy lt today.

Thinking of slackening a canyon carbon hardtail frame from 70 deg to 68.5 deg. That'd be OK wouldn't it? Any down sides to the process? I've heard the headsets creak like a very creaky thing? Is that true or internet bollocks?

Its just the cane creek ones that....creak.

Several Works Components headsets fitted to different bikes never had a creaking problem.

Aye, the Cane Creek has extra moving parts so is more inclined to creak and can be fiddlier to adjust, Works ones (and various knockoffs like Superstar) work just like any other headset cups.

(the only benefit of the CC Angleset is more universal fitment, whereas the simpler ones like Works are specific to a smaller range of head tube lengths. But in practice, how often will you swap them from bike to bike? It's quite clever engineering but it adds complexity and cost that we don't often need)

Also, cheers Dirtyrider, I'm sure that's giving people more confidence in my spannering advice here 😆

Singlespeedstu, I have a 160 pike up front already, what is this shock reducer bush you mention?

http://www.tftuned.com/offset-mount-kits/c71

I'm a bit stumped as to how they'd be useful? It's probably slack enough already with the fork/headset, around 66.8•, or do they do something different? Is the VPP affected?

The shock bushings make the bike behave like it's sitting deeper in the travel, hence slacker head and seat angles, lower BB and shorter reach. On a Santa Cruz VPP it won't noticeably affect the suspension behaviour as all the curves describing the kinematics are pretty flat around the sag area.

Also, cheers Dirtyrider, I'm sure that's giving people more confidence in my spannering advice here

There are some pictures that will live forever, Northwind's forks and CFH's special shoes are right up there 🙂

Cheers CGG, I'll give the current set up a few rides and see how I get on, the bb being raised was of some concern so I'll keep the bushes in mind.

Thanks for the input. I just ordered a works one from Freeborn but they are a 4-6 week lead time. Sad times.

your are probably right about the cove head angle I got the number from review I found on bikemagic.

I have a 2° one on my Saracen Ariel 162, it handles just fine on single track and even better on gnarly stuff.

makes it more stable in the air.

Reach hasn't been badly affected as I have a 60mm stem on there, indeed it feels better to be behind the bars than over them.

[img] [/img]

you do know that you can just order straight from Works? I'd be having a look on their site to see if it'd be faster going direct

Recently dealt with Works to play around with angles. Fine bunch of gents that know their stuff in my experience.

Just had a look into this myself if you're interested:

[url= http://www.spanner.org.uk/2016/10/review-works-components-angleset-heres-project-chopper/ ]http://www.spanner.org.uk/2016/10/review-works-components-angleset-heres-project-chopper/[/url]

you do know that you can just order straight from Works? I'd be having a look on their site to see if it'd be faster going direct

From what freeborn told me it would not be any quicker as he is just one guy with a huge product catalogue. seems easier to me to let them do the leg work and maybe he might be quicker fulfilling a specific order than waiting for him to restock.

Both times I've dealt with Works it's been a woman I've been chatting with, doesn't seem like a 1 man thing. Wouldn't you want to check they don't have it listed as available anyway? Freeborn have been 'interesting' with availability in the past (the opposite though, saying they have something available when they don't)

You could always look to see if Superstar have got your size in stock.

Works are a small op but not quite one man. I think their main constraint is machine and tank time, so when stuff goes out of stock it can be a while before another batch happens. I always get theirs, just out of loyalty, I don't like buying knockoffs but it's a bit different when they're out of stock

Both times I've dealt with Works it's been a woman I've been chatting with, doesn't seem like a 1 man thing. Wouldn't you want to check they don't have it listed as available anyway? Freeborn have been 'interesting' with availability in the past (the opposite though, saying they have something available when they don't)

I have an email alert for restock and i did contact works asking when they would be back in stock and they said it would be a few weeks. I phoned freeborn on the off chance they would have one in stock, the guy at freeborn was really nice and it seemed easy to order through him so I did. I assume there is some arrangement between the two as freeborn are advertising works products on their website.

You could always look to see if Superstar have got your size in stock.

I had a look but they don't do EC34

Just had a first ride out with a -2 degree Superstar Slackerizer, before at 67degrees:

[img] [/img]

after at 65degrees (checked with that funky app thing):

[img] [/img]

it feels a lot more composed now at speed, the steering is a little bit more ponderous when climbing but it's fine really.

Can these headsets be used to steepens headangles too?

Yup, don't think I've heard of anyone actually doing it though

Thank you. 🙂

Anyone know if I can get a works headset to fit my Spesh Enduro? It's the fully integrated type I think with no press in cups...

(checked with that funky app thing):

What is the app thing?

Anyone know if I can get a works headset to fit my Spesh Enduro? It's the fully integrated type I think with no press in cups...

I don't think so.

The app i used is called Bubble Level, rest of against your fork leg and it'll show you the head angle.

I think you can get cups that let you fit normal headsets into fully integrated head tubes, fairly sure I have some in my spares box but I'd imagine they are few and far between and may limit your angle headset choice.

Works might machine you a custom one, certainly shouldn't be too difficult to design one, in fact I could maybe have a bash at it in my lunch tomorrow.

The app i used is called Bubble Level, rest of against your fork leg and it'll show you the head angle.

Just added that to phone my current head angle is 66.5

When you fitted your angle sets did you compensate for the drop the bar height by adding spacers?
I have rockshox pike which are 518 axle to crown so changing the angle by 1 degree by my maths would equal a 10mm drop in bar height.

I've got one fitted on my Chromag Wide Angle.

Using 160mm Pikes, the front wheel seems a very long way from the bars.

Might go back to a conventional headset, as I fear the front end doesn't have enough load on it, and could wash out easier.

Interested in other people who might have felt the same way.

you may have issues if you don't change the way you ride. If you just sit in the middle then you're opening yourself up to more issues, but you just need to get your weight slightly further forward and you'll be grand.

Just fitted a -2 to a Five with 150mm Pikes on - initial feel is that it's gonna be good!

Yeah, it's like any modifications, you have to adapt to get the best out of it.

If you just sit in the middle then you're opening yourself up to more issues, but you just need to get your weight slightly further forward and you'll be grand.

It's interesting how the trend towards longer and slacker has led to people stating you need to get your weight further forwards, when I'd say what's actually happening is you're getting your weight less far back.

One thing I have noticed with slacker/longer/lower bikes is that they seem to suit higher bars relative to the BB, more like a downhill bike set-up and less like an XC bike. And with longer reach yet slack bikes you can go very short on the stem.

The centre of the grips on my Bird are in line with the steerer tube due to running a 35mm stem and swept back high rise bars. Gives the steering a very fast precise feel - however that does lose you the natural self-centring you get from having some stem length when you smack into things going downhill fast (body weight pushing on the bars pulls front wheel straight), so I'm not sure I'd want to go that far on an enduro or downhill bike (I don't believe the 40-60mm stems on WC DH bikes are chosen due to bikes not being long enough in reach).

Thanks, looks like the angle headset will be coming off soon.

I"ll give it a few more rides, but it doesn't seem to fit my style of riding.

...looks like the angle headset will be coming off soon.
I"ll give it a few more rides, but it doesn't seem to fit my style of riding.

Looking at the Wide Angle's geometry I think you'd be better off running less fork travel, either 130 or 140mm. That'll steepen the angles by about a degree at sag, lengthen the reach (which is quite short) and drop the BB about 10mm (which must be around 335mm unsagged which is very high for a hardtail - about 30mm higher than my Zero AM).

I'm guessing your current headset can only be adding a degree of slackness as it's a 44mm headtube, so that would give you a 66 deg HA with the 160mm fork, 67 deg with a 140mm one, so 67.5 or 68.5 deg with 20% sag. Far from massively slack and the front centre isn't long either because of the short reach.

Interested in other people who might have felt the same way.

I fitted a 1.5 degree angleset to my mojo HD,it made it a much less forgiving bike on flat corners,you really had to make sure your technique was right.

I went with the 160mm Pike after reading the Singletrack mag review of the bike.

For me, a 60mm stem without the Works Component Angleset headset will probably be the way forward.

I have set the Pikesup a little soft , so they have about 30% sag.

Proper ride today, -2 is good

Rode the Cavedale descent on my 5010 posted further up the page, it was a hell of a lot easier to choose your line with zero fear of going otb, only dabbed once due to the inevitable hikers getting in the way!!

I used offset shock bushings and my 26" five now sits at 64.6 deg using the above app.
It was instantly more confidence inspiring on the downs.
I've always been intrigued about going slacker....

I used offset shock bushings and my 26" five now sits at 64.6 deg using the above app.
It was instantly more confidence inspiring on the downs.
I've always been intrigued about going slacker....

Freeborn got my headset over the weekend so it should be here on Tuesday.
In the interest of science I should probably create a test ride and do a before and after. But in the interest of being impatient I am just going to fit it straight away.
Any tips for fitting? I have an improvised press but also mallet and my favourite piece of wood.

Line up notch down the length of the bike - hit with mallet. This is also the Cane Creek approved method on YouTube, although he uses a press, coz posh.

For a ZS44 EC44 semi integrated, any recommendations for headsets?

Line up notch down the length of the bike - hit with mallet.

that my was roughly my plan.

For a ZS44 EC44 semi integrated, any recommendations for headsets?

Works Components, but you'll need to go EC44 at the top as well.

Rode the Cavedale descent on my 5010 posted further up the page, it was a hell of a lot easier to choose your line with zero fear of going otb

Now that you've had more of a test, was the climbing much harder?

OTSDR: Thanks, bit the bullet and gone for this one, http://www.workscomponents.co.uk/20-degree-ec44---ec44-89-p.asp.

Should get me down to 63deg

Bit of a stealth ad,

Having read this thread, I have taken my Angleset off, for sale in the classifieds.

Bit of a stealth ad,

Having read this thread, I have taken my Angleset off, for sale in the classifieds.To be honest

i only started this thread as a stealth wanted Ad

Now that you've had more of a test, was the climbing much harder?

Nope, I genuinely thought it would be, the steering is SLIGHTLY more wandery but it's nothing if you're a frequent rider, theres absolutely no more front wheel lift due I imagine to the steeper seat tube angle.

I'm not one for honeymoon periods and like to call a spade a spade so do honestly believe it's a massive improvement, I don't know if that wound be the same for every bike, but if you've got a Solo that you want to go faster on then it's a no brainer.

So I have a Works -2 deg EC44/ZS56 headset which I originally bought for my Spitfire but then was inspired to buy a Zero AM and put it on that with a 130mm fork. And since then the Zero has gone to a Cane Creek -0.5 and 140mm fork and external lower cup and the Works one is spare and I've been ill and off the bike for literally three weeks and this thread happened. Curiosity has now got the better of me - time to put the Works into the Spitfire and shorten the 160mm Pike to 150mm.

Current geometry in Low:
HA: 65.7
SA: 73.2
Reach: 419mm
BB height: 342mm

And High:
HA: 66.7
SA: 74.2
Reach: 429mm
BB height: 354mm

(Neutral is exactly halfway between)

-2 deg and 150mm Pike will give this in Low:

HA: 64.1
SA: 74.1
Reach: 425mm
BB height: 335mm

And high:
HA: 65.1
SA: 75.1
Reach: 435mm
BB height: 347mm

I'm not one for honeymoon periods and like to call a spade a spade so do honestly believe it's a massive improvement, I don't know if that wound be the same for every bike, but if you've got a Solo that you want to go faster on then it's a no brainer.

That's good to know. I'm looking at a Bronson with -1 degree, so it will be a slightly longer travelled version of what you have now. I have got offset bushes fitted which are good but climbing is much harder due to the slacker seat tube.

To compensate for a 1 degree change you just need to nudge your saddle around half an inch forward

EDIT: fixed, as still hardly a wild amount

To compensate for a 1 degree change you just need to nudge your saddle a tiny amount forward

Actually it's about 1/2" difference.

why move the saddle?