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...the Whyte G160, which has ten of the things:
...2 were seized solid, 2 had enough play in them that they might as well have not been there and 4 of the other 6 were rough as old nails. Will be changing the lot. (And the lower headset bearing. And the two shell bearings in the back wheel too!)
So, STW, can you do better? Any experiences with bikes than can beat the G-160's bearing count? Let's hear your tales of workshop misery...
Specialized have ;
2x main pivot bearings
4x horst pivot
4x chainstay-rocker pivot
2x main rocker pivot
Think I counted 16 in one of my old Mondrakers, most of them tiny, obvs.
Maestro linkage on most Giant FS bikes is ten bearings, four different sizes. Just done my anthem and most were siezed (although thought the suspension didn't feel that bad!)
Accessibility is what causes the misery, though. The maestro has some blind ones (like most linkages I guess) - I have the pulling kit anyhow but generally they are easy to access. Some designs have really brutal placements.
Accessibility is what causes the misery, though. The maestro has some blind ones (like most linkages I guess) – I have the pulling kit anyhow but generally they are easy to access. Some designs have really brutal placements.
Because of this, the proper Maestro toolkit is a must and, as a bonus, is a cracking tool to have for doing pretty much any bike as few others are as awkward to do! In fact, I used it extensively doing this G160 (albeit with different drifts due to the Whyte having inexplicably used non-metric bearing sizes!)
Not sure if bushings or bearings, but Knolly bikes must have a few
Specialized have ;
2x main pivot bearings
4x horst pivot
4x chainstay-rocker pivot
2x main rocker pivot
Shares in Enduro, surely 🙂
Oddly, my own Tallboy has only 8 - four in the lower rocker and four in the upper. The lower ones have grease ports so last for ages, providing you keep them pumped full. The uppers are just regular sealed bearings and barely last a single Yorkshire winter, if the bikes getting a decent amount of use. Yey for lifetime bearing warranties!
Think I’ll stick with the single pivot (2 bearings and 2 bushings) though that does mean I lose your challenge.
I would have a guess that a Liteville 301 would have more, but I got the LBS to do it for me!!
Not sure if bushings or bearings, but Knolly bikes must have a few
That's superb. I'd want a written, "Yorkshire Weather" warranty on that lot before I took it out of the shop!
My Vitus E-Sommet has 14, 3 different sizes, all put in dry and seized in the housings. Halfway through changing them, no hope without boiling water
My Vitus E-Sommet has 14, 3 different sizes, all put in dry and seized in the housings. Halfway through changing them, no hope without boiling water
Interestingly, Whyte specify that bearings must be fitted with Loctite 638, which is a high-strength, permanent retaining compound. They'll be a right pain to get out after using that, so I've used 641 instead which is the medium strength one designed to allow disassembly. Any chance that the Vitus ones were bonded in too?
Why are suspension bikes using ball/roller bearings instead of a bronze bush?
The action of the suspension is basically a hinge, so surely a decent sized bush with a grease nipple and properly sealed would outlast the bike.
If I remember it right, the reason for not using a ball/roller bearing for a heavily loaded hinge was because the bearing would suffer Brinelling and fail long before a bush.
About the only reason I can think off is that the ball/roller bearing is more accepting of slight alignment problems so frames don't need to be so precisely made for them.
Heat gun to remove loctited bearings. I used to have a Gary Fisher where the bearings just popped in the frame and would fall out. They were designed to be loctited in. Actually made changing them a doddle because to disassemble you just used heat and just hook them out; to assemble you just applied loctite, popped them in and did the bolt up. Single pivot too, easiest bearing job ever. Just as well really cos I'd be lucky to get 6 months from them, despite getting years fro other bikes.
My Bird has 10 (I think) plus 4 on the shock. Not including headset, BB etc. At least they tend to be 'cheap' sizes.
Just as well really cos I’d be lucky to get 6 months from them, despite getting years fro other bikes.
Wonder if the sloppy fit meant poor bearing alignment too? If they are anything like BB bearings, poorly aligned bearings will last a fraction of the time of properly set up ones, and I assume the same would apply to frame pivot bearings.
My Bird has 10 (I think) plus 4 on the shock. Not including headset, BB etc. At least they tend to be ‘cheap’ sizes.
Good point. If you're doing them yourself, then cost of the bearings is probably more important than quantity. The (uncommon) Whyte ones are £10-12 each, which makes it a pretty expensive job, although I did managed to pick up a set of 8 Enduro versions for £40 on eBay, which will definitely help keep the overall cost down.
Why are suspension bikes using ball/roller bearings instead of a bronze bush?
It's a fair point. The only place I've seen bushings used commonly on mainstream bikes has been for shock mounts. I suspect it'll be something to do with stiction, which would make the suspension less reactive. Perhaps also loading might have some bearing too. Dunno, but there's no question that frame bearing longevity is still very much an unsolved problem in the bike industry.
Cannondale twin-shock proto Gemini DH from 2003 (ish) has to be the winner here.
It had 16 square inches of travel "8 x 2" due to the rear wheel's abilty to move in multiple paths depending on where the impact was coming from. Add in 2 shocks and a floating brake arm and I can barely fathom just many bearings it must have contained.
I can only theorise that their suspension kinematics engineer at the time had shares in SKF.
there’s no question that frame bearing longevity is still very much an unsolved problem in the bike industry.
Yep, shockingly short life from some of four-bar frames I've had in recent years - Spesh, Transition and Nukeproof in particular.
As above, I've gone single pivot for the bikes I ride the most now. I actually prefer how they ride as well as the decreased maintenance worries.
Having done my first bearing change recently, I feel the pain of the stuck blind bearing oh so well.
It’s a fair point. The only place I’ve seen bushings used commonly on mainstream bikes has been for shock mounts.
Turner used bushings, not sure if it was just the main pivot or the whole lot.
I had an old proflex with a carbon swingarm that used plastic bushings! seemed to last quite well although they were about 40mm diameter.
I would have a guess that a Liteville 301 would have more, but I got the LBS to do it for me!!
10 if you discount the needle ones in the shock.
Having done my first bearing change recently, I feel the pain of the stuck blind bearing oh so well.
A combination of gentle heat (as mentioned above, a kettle of water is an excellent tool as it's impossible to overheat with it!) and superb tools from Braeview (now "Bearing Pro Tools") make a tricky job very easy. Experience helps, but for working on MTB frame bearings, there's nothing beats having (at least a few) proper tools for the job!
daern
It’s a fair point. The only place I’ve seen bushings used commonly on mainstream bikes has been for shock mounts.
Turner and Banshee used bushings on some frames, with mixed results.
chakaping
Yep, shockingly short life from some of four-bar frames I’ve had in recent years – Spesh, Transition and Nukeproof in particular.
Nicolai manage it pretty well - double sealed and all that
Specialized have ;
2x main pivot bearings
4x horst pivot
4x chainstay-rocker pivot
2x main rocker pivot
My Camber has 3 main bearings, 2 on the drive side and one non-drive side
Nicolai manage it pretty well – double sealed and all that
Do owners get good lifespans from them?
It's something I would pay more for in a frame, but it's not very sexy I know.
chakaping
Do owners get good lifespans from them?
They seem really good yes, the only ones I ever have to worry about are the main swing arm ones, and the still last ages.
G-160's are notorious for chewing through bearings. Mainly due to the upper linkage only being a single clevis joint which torsionally and laterally loads the bearings quite badly.
The newer whytes, such as my S-150, use a double clevis but even then the bearing life isn't great. I put that down to the relatively small bearing sizes, lack of sealing and no braces connecting the seatstays increasing flex.
My partners trek remedy has 14 bearings including the trunion shock.I remember the old demo's used to have nearly 20 bearings in them due to the fandangled twin-seatstay design.
They seem really good yes, the only ones I ever have to worry about are the main swing arm ones, and the still last ages.
It's the small rear bearings which seem to go first in most four-bar frames.
If they've cracked that, then respect is due.
Do Whyte still do lifetime bearings? Suspect it is shop-only but you ordered a replacement set of bearings, sent the old ones back and got refunded for the new bearings.
Spesh Enduro here, so a total of eleventy seven bearings....But happy to report, so far (coming on 18 months) so good, everything running smooth and happy, not the slightest hint of play*
* yes, I understand I've jinxed myself now though... 🙂
Nicolai used to be bushes rather than bearings.
Changing them was a pig though, but mainly from the point of getting everything aligned nicely.
I used to get 3 years or so from a set.
Best bearing performance and life I've ever had was on a Turner 6-pack. Ignus bushing in every pivot and grease fitting for them all as well.
I got the impression that while they could maintain alignment in alu frames, I think the carbon ones were an issue.
Ibis now run bushing for some pivots on their latest frames.
Wife's Cube has 12 bearings, 8 of which are tiny and double row! Plus it takes four different sizes from memory. It's a bloody pain.
My FlareMAX has 6 over 2 sizes, plus bushes for the seat stays. The Flare is my third different full sus and I've never got more than 8 months out of a full set.
Do Whyte still do lifetime bearings? Suspect it is shop-only but you ordered a replacement set of bearings, sent the old ones back and got refunded for the new bearings.
I believe so, but I think the warranty would only cover changing the bearings that were actually knackered, which wouldn't be ideal when clearly the ones that are not broken will be pretty near their end of life. The LBS that supplied the bike have a month-long waiting list for the workshop, so will have to do without warranty this time around.
the horst ones on my 2019 stumpy have seals o the covers. They are like new.
the rest were scrap after a year but they showed no signs of it! thats the thing that gets me. Loads of folks say their bearings are fine when in reality they are scrap, they just dont know it.
although I did managed to pick up a set of 8 Enduro versions for £40 on eBay, which will definitely help keep the overall cost down.
Just be careful of counterfeit bearings. There's loads of them on the Internet.
Sorry to derail this thread, but just wondering which decent full susses have the least amount of bearings, apart from Orange
My banshee spitfire has 8 in 2 sizes, less shock mounts IIRC. In cheap common sizes too
I'm impressed that flaremax only has 6. Hypothetically if I was to get a new full sus then it's a factor deffo, cost and quantity. It even makes Oranges seem appealing
Sorry *apeeling* 🤭
its a small cost of running a bike imo.
Hardly a small cost if you're taking it to a shop. You're easily looking at £150+ for a full bearing swap every 6-12 months if the bike is ridden a lot.
Orange and Starling are the only two manufacturers that do a true single pivot as far as I known, though I'm sure I've missed a niche brand or two.
For everyone else, 8 pivots is the absolute minimum you can have on a linkage actuated single pivot or horst link. (2 at the BB, 2 at the rear and 4 at the upper linkage). The only exception are xc frames that replace the rear pivot with controlled flex. VPP & DW link bikes also use 8 bearings.
Rather than number of bearings, I'd look at the quality of the sealing, sizes of bearings, and overall stiffness of the rear end (double clevis joints & stiffening bridges) as factors that determine bearing life. Santa Cruz and Whyte also deserve mention for offering free bearings for life. I've done 4 bearing changes on my Whyte that have cost me nothing other than the press.
I've had zero issues with the bearings on my last 2 Spesh 4-bar bikes.
Previous to that my single pivot Cannondale used to go through a shock bush every few months (admittedly that's pretty easy and cheap to replace).
Just be careful of counterfeit bearings. There’s loads of them on the Internet.
Fair enough - seems a reputable seller this one. I suspect they are just bearings bought in to do a job that never got used. Anyway, if you were counterfeiting bearings, you'd do something less obscure than Whyte's non-metric ones! 😉
The bearings on my Trek Fuel EX seem to last a ridiculously long time - 10 bearings in total. It's my most used bike in all weathers but also gets a lot of maintenance. Every time I get the shock serviced (roughly 6 months) or it needs a properly good clean from a disgusting winter ride I'll pop the linkage bolts and check them all, take all of 10 minutes. I didn't have a rough or seized bearing for nearly 3 years and well over 2000 miles. Even then it was only the ABP bearings that the axle goes through as they only move about 10 degrees so never slosh the grease around. A quick clean and repack and they lasted until last year and 3,400 miles when I got them all replaced as part of it's rebuild using Enduro bearings at the LBS (lack of time). Checked them at the end of the summer, all fine and again a few weeks ago. Still all smooth and free-rolling. Repacked the ABP one just to be safe but they're seemingly lasting the same as the originals. Gone through 2 complete sets on my Rocket in 2 years and that gets a lot less use (but it does live a harder life).
The 2018 onwards yt capra have little rubber o rings on each pivot bolt providing quite a decent seal for the bearings.
Got 2 years out of the bearings on mine versus 1 year on all my previous full sussers.
I think there's 10 of them in total, which is still a pain in the arse, but not as bad as my 2014 orbea rallon which has 12 of the buggers.
11 on the Jeffsy I have.
I just took my time and did them all over a day. I've quiet a few bearing tools now but still had to bodge some stuff to do them all!
Sorry to derail this thread, but just wondering which decent full susses have the least amount of bearings, apart from Orange
My Swarf Contour has 6, 2x Main pivot and 4x in the rocker...and a doddle to change.
AS @Cha****ng alluded to earlier, single pivot and ease of maintenance is a thing I value in a bike....the less movey bits the better.
Knolly suspension is actually very robust and bearings and bushings last a long time - I bought well-ridden frame from a mate for my son who rode it for couple of years and still the bike was on original bearings.
My DW-link bikes have been really good with bearing life, previous one was sold at seven years and only one set at main pivot needed replacing.
My SC Superlight ate bearings more than any of my multi link bikes.
As mentioned above ,the proper Giant bearing tool kit is a thing of beauty.
Changing the bearings is like watching one of James May's assembly telly programmes.
The years of my life I wasted wallowing about on single pivots makes me sad.
I had the same experience as @reluctantjumper with a Fuel Ex. Good bearings (some proprietary sizes) sealed reasonably well and years before needing attention. They could be cleaned out, spun and repacked a few times. The ones at the back axle get the grease washed out fastest and are usually the first to throw in their hand!
My old 575 had 10 bearings - I changed them twice in it's lifetime - guess it was lucky they had a carbon flex stay instead of a pivot on the chainstays or that would've been another 4!
I once had my RM Instinct bearings and bushings (yes, some bikes do use bushings!) all dismantled and spread out on the garage floor. All in position ready to reassemble, when my phone starts frantically beeping away.. tried to ignore it.. beep beep... doesn't stop. The girlfriend had smashed a glass while washing up and sliced her hand open!! Pics of blood etc. I'm like .. bike, girlfriend? Bike? girlfriend? Bike won 😀
Don't get too much of a throb on for bushings! Saracen and Ghost are two that come to mind that have managed to **** them up.
amusing
Pah!
Call that an unnecessary number of bearings? I used to own a Yeti DH9 a lawill link frame complete with a floating brake arm. IIRC that thing had something like 14 bearings...
Marin multi-trac (e.g rift zone, hawk hill), 6 of 12X24X6, job done! The rear pivot uses a bushing (an igus plane bearing).
Most of mine were seized after 2 winters, so won't leave it as long next time. The bushes were as new.
I've got 4500km on my Knolly now, in all weathers and probably a third of that around the peaks. I've replaced the bushes once now and the bearing on the swing arm twice.