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They would be ideal for motor pacing in a team.
Motor pacing with a moped/m-bike is illegal in most of Europe. Getting an e-bike with enough grunt then modifying it to exceed the speed/power limits is expensive, then puts you back into the illegality of motor pacing with a moped.
Stick a couple of these in last year's team bikes and take it in turns to be the pacer. Couple of lads doing big turns at ~300W plus the 200/250 of the vivax/gruber thing gives you a 500W pacer bike that the police will ignore, you don't need a licence to ride it either.
Just have to be careful not to get it in the back of the team bus by mistake.
aracer, calling me out as irrational and convicted (by you) conspiracy theorist is irrational.
But you carry on filling the Internet up with your theories, conspiracy or not.
🙄
[b]Chris Boardman[/b] from as far back as 03 Jun [b]2010[/b]
[i]"I sat at a meeting with the UCI last year and drew on the blackboard exactly how this might work. I showed them how some the sophisticated boosting technology now available, mainly [b]from F1 teams, that can get a kilowatt out of a single AAA battery.[/b]
"And don't forget electrically operated gears are legal these days so there is already a power source on many bikes. I think it would be fair to say there was a stunned silence after I said my piece."
"It would be very little trouble adapting a power source to give you maybe a couple of hundred watts for 20 minutes or so, which would basically gives you [b]40 per cent more power[/b] through the pedals in a time trial say.
"You could reduce that power and spread it over a longer period of time or go for one "hit".
"Its potential is obvious. You could use it when you are trying to establish a break or on the crux of the last climb of the day or maybe in the latter stages of a long time-trial. [/i]"
I have seen opinions elsewhere that say cheating could be integrated with electronic gear changes or via radio from the team car etc so no direct rider involvement would occur.
It would be very little trouble adapting a power source to give you maybe a couple of hundred watts for 20 minutes or so
be an interest development if the UCI said no batteries at all on competition bikes.
[i] via radio from the team car etc so no direct rider involvement would occur. [/i]
Although setting the bluetooth id of the devices to "Chris Froome's Motor" or "Cav's Sprint Booster" would be a bit of a give away 🙂
Just to be clear, does anyone know if its 30.9mm or 31.6mm compatible?
Yep, I have a bit of sympathy for her not realising how big a thing this is. In some ways if it had been a bit of EPO it would have gone unnoticed by nearly everyone but now she is really in the world's spotlight.I think this is a very important point to remember, even if it turns out she was deliberately cheating, we need to remember that she won;t have done so in isolation,
Only for 5 seconds. The point is well made though, we already have power sources on a bike that could give us, for example, 10W for 500secondsthat can get a kilowatt out of a single AAA battery
kilowatt out of a single AAA battery
Well, yeah. For like, a split-second.
EDIT - bah.
be an interest development if the UCI said no batteries at all on competition bikes
Well they've already said no motors on bikes, but...
wwaswas - Member
via radio from the team car etc so no direct rider involvement would occur.Although setting the bluetooth id of the devices to "Chris Froome's Motor" or "Cav's Sprint Booster" would be a bit of a give away
That's me off to get a rucksack full of cheap mobile phones to wander around the pits at the next race with! 😆
Kilowatt out of one AAA, is this another one of those "6 bar in a tubular" statements? Possibly true but almost certainly not happening in the real world.
(I reckon an AAA would either melt or explode if you tried dragging 1 kW out of it)
from F1 teams, that can get a kilowatt out of a single AAA battery.
? a primary li-ion AAA has a nominal capacity of 350 mAh @ 3.6V. That's 1.26 Wh for an hour. IF they could extract that energy at a rate of kW's, it would be for seconds...
Wouldn't it just be easier to have a standard battery.
You can either have 500W for one minute or 100W for 5. Thats the total energy available in this standard free issue battery we've decided to use.
I think there has been rumours regarding this for some time, Thats why i think when Hesjedal went down Some folk "ME Included" wanted to believe or at least try and fathom why the bike responded the way it did.
If we or "Me" are thinking this try and imagine giving it your all, at the top of your game and coming up short, you would start to ask yourself serious questions, its only natural that you would include others in your calculations, maybe's become what if's become why? then you start looking for things in others and who knows what you begin to see.
There are a whole host of reason to do it, reasons not to. Methods to determine how and when the power comes on tap. I think that any one who has used it or are contemplating it might just think twice now.
New Scrutineering added for 2016
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[quote=bikebouy ]But you carry on filling the Internet up with your theories, conspiracy or not.
The theory that when the UCI say there's a motor in the bike that means there's a motor in the bike, or some other theory? Or is that just a wild ad hom?
Theories are fine, just expect to get called out on them if they involve disbelieving the accepted authority on something until they provide [b]you[/b] with evidence.
Keep going...
More on grit.cx: [url= http://http://grit.cx/news/2016/02/cyclcross-motor-doping-what-we-know ]here[/url]
It's LA-denying deja vu all over again. When the WADA report came out people demanded to see the evidence ie. the test results, of which there were none, it was all sworn depositions from other riders, soigneurs etc. Criminal courts work to a higher burden of proof than any other and people can be convicted on witness testimony without any physical evidence.
In this case the UCI president has said there's a motor in one of her bikes. The ACCUSED RIDER has offered a long winded explanation as to how it got into her pit. She hasn't denied there is a motor, she hasn't demanded that the UCI produce the evidence, she's offered an explanation as a defence.
CPS barrister: "you're accused of stabbing this man to death".
defendant: "it was an accident, I only tried to scare him with it and he slipped and fell on it".
Bikebouy on the Jury: "I DON'T BELIEVE IT HAPPENED I HAVEN'T SEEN THE KNIFE!".
There is nothing rational about your stance, Bikebouy, it flies in the face of all the information we do so far have. There is sceptical and there is just being contrary.
I DO agree that it is extremely unlikely she did this alone, or was even responsible for orchestrating it, and shouldn't be the only person receiving punishment, but whilst she maintains her current stance she's not assisting the wider investigation.
When asked if this could spell the end of her young career Van den Driessche said, “yes, I think so.”Van den Driessche offered up a potential reason for the bike’s presence, saying that it was owned by someone she’d been training with. “That bike belongs to a friend of mine,” she said. “He trains along with us. He joined my brothers and my father. That friend joined my brother at the reconnaissance and he placed the bike against the truck but it’s identical to mine. Last year he bought it from me. My mechanics have cleaned the bike and put it in the truck. They must’ve thought that it was my bike. I don’t know how it happened.”
Quoted from Cycling News.
She was flanked by her Father who, it's said, is someone not to cross. Theres a good piece on Road.cc about "pushy parents"
[url= http://road.cc/content/news/177363-mechanical-doping-are-pushy-parents-blame-youngsters-cheating-video ]Linky[/url]
She's 19, theres a lot more to this story than just a kid using/potentially using a bike with a motor in it.
I feel sorry for her.
me tooI feel sorry for her.
she cheated, though
And double entente of the week goes to Liam Kileen, who when asked about the story said:
"I’d question the whole team because I don’t think an under-23 lady would have the means to put a motor into her bottom bracket.”
If this was cluedo my money would be on the father, behind the team bus with a torque wrench. Have to agree it's not something she could have done herself, but it sounds like she comes from a win at all costs family and the pressure might have been too much. Can't see it being the national team, Prosbly not the trade team either if she has a specific mechanic
She's old enough to vote, get married, have children, join the army. She's old enough to know not to stick a motor in the BB and then lie about it afterwards.
I just watched a clip of her riding in some race, (i dont know anything about cyclocross) why do they change the bikes on a lap when the tires are only [i]slightly[/i] muddy seems a bit unnecessary?
Also even before her alleged "motor assisted" cheating, i'd ban her for her terrible cornering first!
Yep. The speed with which her coach dropped her wasn't very seemly either. I'm guessing there is a bigger story going on somewhereShe's 19, theres a lot more to this story than just a kid using/potentially using a bike with a motor in it.
[quote=leffeboy ]The speed with which her coach dropped her
Did he have a bigger motor?
Oooooooo....I wonder if one of those would fit in the bottom of my lefty fork, custom axle made up....front wheel drive, that'll confuse the scrutineers!
Getting power out of any battery is fundamentally limited by the internal resistance of the battery. Its then down to Ohm's law if you short the battery ie P=V squared/R. To get maximum power transfer into a load, the resistance of the load (ie the motor) needs to be the same as the internal resistance of the battery. Typically dry cells like alkaline AAAs have a much higher internal resistance than a lead acid car battery which can deliver a lot of power in a short burst. In practice you would struggle to get 10W from a 1.5V alkaline cell and it would get very hot.
She's in the clear.
The motor-bike owner has come forward
He was probably just delivering lunch 😆
Ah, glad that's all sorted out then. Makes perfect sense.
Can you say "fall guy"?
Presumable him and her aren't exactly the same size and shape, so they would have totally different bike setups (if it's not her bike)
Should be a fairly easy thing to compare.
But if her mechanics grabbed it to "prep" then they might have set it up the same as hers?
you'd think he would have noticed his bike was missing before tonight 😕
But if her mechanics grabbed it to "prep" then they might have set it up the same as hers?
And he'd not changed any parts for his preferred items since he's owned it. Saddle preference is fairly unique in serious cyclists, especially between male and female riders.
It's a bit of a stretch to think that the only thing he did to the bike while he owned it is fit a few thousand quids worth of electric motor, and left everything else exactly the same.
Well that's cleared that up then.
Although why a retired cyclist/chip shop owner should design and build himself a hidden motor in a cyclocross bike and then leave it in the pits, God only knows. What a strange world professional cycling is at times. 😕
[quote=nealglover ]
And he'd not changed any parts for his preferred items since he's owned it. Saddle preference is fairly unique in serious cyclists, especially between male and female riders.But if her mechanics grabbed it to "prep" then they might have set it up the same as hers?
It's a bit of a stretch to think that the only thing he did to the bike while he owned it is fit a few thousand quids worth of electric motor, and left everything else exactly the same.Look - we're already in the realms of the implausible. We might as well keep stretching 🙂
Plausible deniability innit? Maybe not by most definitions of 'plausible'. It's up to the UCI to define how they're going to act.
As a cyclist and a fan of the pro sport, I hope they set an example*.
*Unless we hear of a more plausible reason for her to have a bike with a motor in her pits.
EDIT: I'm about 4 posts too late. Never mind.
Can you say "fall guy"?
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Now Lee Majors is implicated?!?!
This whole thing is getting more complicated every day... By Friday I fully expect to discover that there wasn't even actually a Race at all, and the UCI falsified the whole event as part of some elaborate scheme to blackmail their way into free chips for life...
[url= https://www.salden.nl/nl/wilier-triestina-e-cycl-ocrosser-met-trapondersteuning.html ]Well, this is awkward.....[/url]
(Yes, I know it's an aftermarket fit, but still! 🙂 )
That has to be a spoof surely....
Might not be a spoof. [url= https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Yx4EBY6e0lMJ:https://www.salden.nl/en/bikes-and-frames/cyclocross/e-cyclocrosser/wilier-triestina-e-cycl-ocrosser-met-trapondersteuning.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk ]Google cache[/url] says 'It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on 18 Nov 2015 20:27:59 GMT.'
[url= https://www.salden.nl/en/bikes-and-frames/cyclocross/e-cyclocrosser/wilier-triestina-e-cycl-ocrosser-met-trapondersteuning.html ]For the UK version of the same page[/url]
Good grief! So you can just walk into a bike shop and get one of these.
150w!! Someone tell me this is a spoof please.
*ordered.
I've got that Gravel Reviver 200k thing coming up.. I'd like some help, afterall..it's not a race is it 😆
Seems reasonable too. Specced out with ultegra di2, carbon wheels, the 150w turbo boost thingy - all for just under £5k. 😉 😀
Poxy bike industry. I don't want to be told I have to have a motor.
(Would be handy though. Also on a 26" it'll spin the wheels up faster for doing donuts. Might impede top end though. 🙁 )
Bikebouy said:
She's 19, theres a lot more to this story than just a kid using/potentially using a bike with a motor in it.I feel sorry for her.
I completely agree. I don't believe she was even behind the idea, but whilst she maintains her position she's protecting those that were (entirely understandable if, as some of us suspect, her father is involved). The UCI rules and their strict liability for the rider mean that if she continues with this defence she faces a ban regardless of her defence, but she becomes the scapegoat for everyone else involved. And she's likely to carry more infamy post-ban than if she'd 'just' chemically doped, as she has the dubious honour to be the first to be busted with a motor.
Whonder if the disciplinary process will consider other results (as with some drug dope cases) - she's the current Euro U23 champion.
I don't believe she was even behind the idea
Maybe not, but she didn't seem to be complaining when she powered up the hill in the race shown in the gritcx video. She knew what she was doing and she was old enough to know that it wrong.....
If she's under that much pressure to win, exerted by her father, she might actually be happy it's been found and she's out of the game.....
The Kopenburg race did remind me somewhat of Riccardo Ricco riding up the Tourmalet in the 2008 (?) Tour when he burnt off the best in the peleton with apparent ease.
I do agree that it may not have been her idea, but she does seem to have been happy to use it - if it can be proved she was using a dodgy bike back then
I blame the parents...
when your son is busy taking drugs and your daughter has a motor hidden in a word championship race you have to question their moral fibre
I do agree that it may not have been her idea, but she does seem to have been happy to use it - if it can be proved she was using a dodgy bike back then
I think Nikki Harris is pretty clear that it was used at the Koppenbergcross
actually she may not have known anything other than she appeared to be on incredible form. There is no reason why this couldn't have been activated remotely and that is even more likely as then there is nothing visibleShe knew what she was doing and she was old enough to know that it wrong.....
I think a rider might be a touch aware of a motor in her bike when it kicks in...
And you have to ask the question..
If Nikki Harris knew it was being used at the Kopp CX event, did she raise that point with the commissionaires? her team? (who could raise on her behalf) If not, why not?
And if Nikki knew, surely a few other riders knew too, or suspected it.
Just sayin'
Improving Cycling Performance: Transcranial Direct Current Stimulation Increases Time to Exhaustion in Cycling
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0144916
Let's not forget the parrot 😯 the Van den Driessche family is also currently being charged for parakeet theft February last year. Dad Peter, doping-suspended son Niels, and a friend were caught on camera stealing two expensive parakeets from a shop 😆
You couldn't make this stuff up!! 
http://www.hln.be/regio/nieuws-uit-jabbeke/-die-familie-deinst-voor-niets-terug-a2603590/
actually she may not have known anything other than she appeared to be on incredible form. There is no reason why this couldn't have been activated remotely and that is even more likely as then there is nothing visible
Sorry but that's getting WAY too complex. Those internal seat-tube motors turn the cranks at a set speed. You have to tell the motor how fast to turn the cranks by pushing and holding a little button for a few seconds while pedalling at the required cadence. The motor then takes over.
If you try and pedal at 90rpm while the motor is trying to do 60, you'll blow the motor. Likewise in reverse, if you're trying to hold 60rpm and the motor is trying to do 90 then it'll damage the motor. It works in conjunction with gear changes and the rider, it's really not something you'd want to have under remote control.
Imagine driving down the road at a steady speed and suddenly someone auto-activates the turbo in your car. It'd be a disaster, you want something like that under your exclusive control. Beside, adding in remote access is adding considerably to the complexity of an already complex system.
It's not designed to run and run for hours, it's a "boost" system you can use on long drags (that Koppenberg climb being a classic example of where it would be perfect).
To be honest on such a technical course as Zolder, I can't see it being of any use at all, there was nothing long enough to require a steady cadence once you factor in the 5 seconds of programming time to tell the motor how fast to turn.
Fair enough, you have more detailed info than me.
Assuming that's the motor/system that's been used?
I'd say crazy-legs is just showing far too much knowledge on this.....
If Nikki Harris knew it was being used at the Kopp CX event, did she raise that point with the commissionaires? her team? (who could raise on her behalf) If not, why not?
And, of course, making unsubstantiated allegations & then shouting out about them to the twitterverse is entirely legal and will have no repercussions 😆
actually she may not have known anything other than she appeared to be on incredible form. There is no reason why this couldn't have been activated remotely and that is even more likely as then there is nothing visible
Yes, of all the possible explanations, that just sounds incredibly plausible. I'm torn, though, the one where the guy from the chip shop accidentally left his motorised bike behind, the mechanics accidentally prepped it and she rode it without noticing it was someone else's bike is also pretty difficult to argue against.
On the other hand, the UCI say she was riding a bike with a motor in the race, and...that's it, so far.
They're both the same size and use identical saddles? OK I'm in… (Denial)
Assuming that's the motor/system that's been used?I'd say crazy-legs is just showing far too much knowledge on this.....
Yup. I'm beginning to think that '[i]crazylegs[/i]' may be a bit of a euphemism for something.
The guy in the local bike shop here has let me test a few of his bikes - I jumped on his Ti Kinesis and road 200Km without any adjustment, so it is possible ..... but rather unlikely
I've not read the whole thread, but I'm going to exercise STW-prerogative and comment anyway.
Seen this?
You're both blokes I presume, you're not an ex-pro (they might not care that much about the mechanics of bikes but they're notoriously fussy about position and saddles), you haven't gone to the trouble of having several thousand pounds of hidden motor fitted to a bike which is now yours.
This is always assuming that the bike is set up the same as her other ones - if not then the whole thing changes and the friend story suddenly becomes rather more plausible. At the moment we don't know - all we do know is that the UCI found a motor in a bike identified as hers in her pit, I doubt they'd checked the riding position at that stage. It might surprise some on this thread who don't seem to have followed closely what I've actually claimed, but I'm not condemning her yet until we know a bit more about the exact circumstances - we do know they found a motor in a bike which was either one she rode or one in her pit, but at the moment that's about it.
Ir_bandito 😯
Not sure what was going on there, neither was the bloke on the infield with the Bald Heeed and glasses.
Maybe these motors are not yet reliable enough......
she does seem to have been happy to use it
We don't know that she was happy. I do know that at 19 if my Dad had told me to cheat I would have been aghast.
Well they've found the Owner of the bike that was identified in her Pits (rather, lent against her Van) He's claimed "all I can say is yes, it's my bike"
The Belgian press were camped out at his doorstep for 2 days whilst waiting to catch him, but he'd been away and only just returned.
So, that that then.
Hysteria over, so's her career, her hard fought years of training, gawd knows what family pressures she's had to endure...
I still want the UCI to Man Up and prove it, show us all what exactly they found instead of hiding behind a vail of thin black cloth they're so keen on. C'mon Cooky, prove to us all that you're not like the other bloke who was in charge of the UCI.
Prove it, stand proud if your evidence is true...link it directly to this athlete please, if you can.
And as for the Girl in question, this will by no means let her off the hook, for the UCI will still make her out to be complicit and either Ban her or impose a strategically (possibly unfair) large fine on her. Which will end her career, financially and competitively.
And then theres the Media trial, already in full force and itching for a pointy finger of blame, for a few hours of social media points.. Then forgotten until it appears on QI or some other Quiz Show, or Xmas Quiz on a Cycling Platform near you.
And the gossip will continue about a new found underhand way of powering your bike, with out your legs.
I still want the UCI to Man Up and prove it, show us all what exactly they found instead of hiding behind a vail of thin black cloth they're so keen on.
I don't know if it's a good thing or not. I see that they are following the process, preparing their case, and will no doubt present the evidence at the appropriate time, which would be at the hearing. I think the outcome of which will then be publicly available.
It is a shame that in the meantime, in the absence of any news, the media hysteria continues.
I still want the UCI to Man Up and prove it, show us all what exactly they found instead of hiding behind a vail of thin black cloth they're so keen on. C'mon Cooky, prove to us all that you're not like the other bloke who was in charge of the UCI.
Prove it, stand proud if your evidence is true...link it directly to this athlete please, if you can.
There's an investigation underway - it could prejudice the outcome of it to go posting photos of the motor, accusations etc.
It's already been linked to the athlete and the rules are pretty straightforward, it's absolute liability. Same as doping, it's up to the rider to ensure they are not putting anything into their bodies that shouldn't be there.
Yes, that does open the door to things like spiked drinks in much the same way that this could lead to a "planted" bike but I imagine that's forming part of the investigation.
I know some of you are saying here career is over. But I'm not seeing that myself, she's only 19, accountable for her actions yes, but also its an age where your easily influenced by family and older people that are around you. A court would recognise that and use it as mitigation let alone a UCI Disciplinary panel. Add all this "not my bike" smokescreen and I'd be very suprised if she got more than a 12 month ban and a fine that she would be reasonably be able to pay.
After that if she's good enough she'll get a ride. Cycling is full of returned cheats of all sorts, not sure why she'll be any different.
[quote=bikebouy ]I still want the UCI to Man Up and prove it, show us all what exactly they found instead of hiding behind a vail of thin black cloth they're so keen on.
I'm still wondering why think there's a possibility that there isn't a motor and they're making it all up? At this point they appear to be completely following correct procedure - part of which isn't to provide all evidence to the media as soon as possible. It's nothing at all like what has happened in the past in the way you're insinuating.
I just think that Bikebouy doesn't like Cookie, his corduroys and now this thin black veil to which he's hiding behind.
No doubt tomorrow there'l be something else he's done or not done that won't agree with him,
I think it's pretty straightforward still, A motor has been found, some form of an excuse has been put forward, both parties meet for a hearing from which an outcome will be presided upon then we can all argue about it,
Should be pretty reminiscent of Captain Blackadders trial shortly after shooting speckled Jim,
Cookie to the accused, AND Can you see the Chip Shop owner anywhere in this court room now, Baaaaaaah
I still want the UCI to Man Up and prove it, show us all what exactly they found instead of hiding behind a vail of thin black cloth they're so keen on. C'mon Cooky, prove to us all that you're not like the other bloke who was in charge of the UCI.
But she herself has admitted there is a motor there. She's just saying it isn't her bike. Perhaps a better defence on your part would be 'How could a lovely young girl like that do something so obviously dishonest? Is she not fragrant?' Cos that makes about as much sense as anything else you gave posted thus far.
Should be pretty reminiscent of Captain Blackadders trial shortly after shooting speckled Jim,Cookie to the accused, AND Can you see the Chip Shop owner anywhere in this court room now, Baaaaaaah
And don't forget the parrots in a bag. You couldn't make this stuff up 🙂
The guy in the local bike shop here has let me test a few of his bikes - I jumped on his Ti Kinesis and road 200Km without any adjustment, so it is possible ..... but rather unlikely
would have been better if it was his wife's bike 🙂
This is what UCI’s technical manager Mark Barfield said about motors in bikes back in December:
We are changing the way we test. All I can tell you is it’s based on magnetic resistance. There is a lot of work to be done. We’ve done our first trial and we have more trials in February. Its first outing, fingers crossed, will be the World Cyclocross Championships ... we’ll probably do our first test in women’s racing next year because we need to extend. We now have the ability to test more bikes more often.
So they said in December that they'd be testing at that particular race and yet she still tried to use her motor 🙄
Surely the question should be who saw that from the UCI and didn't use a motor at the world championships?
Did anyone underperform compared to expectations suggesting they previously a motor but took it off when they knew there would be testing?
I'm tempted to put a smilie here..