[Closed] And so it begins...? "mechanical doping" first?

am I up to speed?

just watched a vid of her going up the koppenberg - as we say in Belgium, wow ... just, wow

(from about 3 min)

At a press conference today UCI (Union Cycliste Internationale) president, Brian Cookson, confirmed the bike the 19-year-old Belgian was riding, when she pulled out of the race with mechanical problems, was later found to contain a concealed motor. - See more at: http://road.cc/content/news/177183-mechanical-doping-cyclocross-worlds-confirmed#sthash.phCkYSST.dpuf
N.B. according to that report, she was riding the bike with the motor, it's not a bike that was sitting in the pits.

So we're trying to prove that the spinning bike with no credible evidence of cheating had a motor in it, and the bike that has been found with a motor in it didn't really have a motor in it; am I up to speed?

According to most reports it was a bike in the pits. If you read many of the original dutch tekst and then the english or French translation there are quite some mis translations either from incompetence(google translate) or to spice things up.

Its seems quite sure the bike was found in the pits early on and so not(yet) ridden on. Can obviously have been used earlier on her koppenberg climb looks very dodgy. I would love to see her and the alleged friend take a polygraph. Her dad has a dodgy head but then that's not punishable by law 😉

check the sequence on that koppenberg vid around 12' what do you think?

Somebody's actually been caught red handed and still the tinfoil hat brigade aren't happy.

🙄

It'll be interesting to see if she can make any kind of comeback (if she even tries) from this, or if she'll be shunned to a greater degree than dopers.

Seems like the UCI have a simple, quick way to check for motors now, so hopefully this isn't widespread like many are trying to make out to be. Just a one off I hope.

hofnar, thanks for the info, I'm currently on a work computer with all sorts of google and content limitations.

According to most reports it was a bike in the pits

agree, but which according to the always-reliable INRNG is irrelevant, from

http://inrng.com/2016/01/the-electric-shock/ the UCI rules are quoted as saying

"the presence, within or on the margins of a cycling competition"

so would include a bike in race pits or on top of team car even if not raced in anger.

and another 😀 for

So we're trying to prove that the spinning bike with no credible evidence of cheating had a motor in it, and the bike that has been found with a motor in it didn't really have a motor in it; am I up to speed?

Edit:

It'll be interesting to see if she can make any kind of comeback (if she even tries) from this, or if she'll be shunned to a greater degree than dopers.

and surely even less chance she did this without the complicity or involvement of her team* than pharma doping - even if you jet off to Spain on your own to have a motor fitted by a gynacologist-turned-electrical engineer the mechanics are going to find it the next time they work on the bike.

*whether team is her sponsored organised race team, or her close family/entourage.

[b]And thanks for not spoiling the Elite Mens CX result in this thread, I'm avoiding 99% of social media so I can catch the highlights. [/b]

Well TF1 HD announced it was the bike she was racing on that had the motor in it. In an interview the girl gave me the impression she was rattling out pre-agreed excuses which were frankly laughable with a few tears - the body language said "liar".

As for Cancellara and the "spinning back wheel that wasn't" they were both presented as "suspicious". The videos of Cancellara's hand movements were highlighted in a vid. A full-size vid (big HD TV on a fibre connection) of the "spinning wheel incident" confirmed to my satisfaction that the rear wheel had stopped before the bike moved off again - it was firmly in contact with the ground as the bike slid to a halt.

i can get the lure of 250 watts on tap for 30 mins and being very useful in a cyclocross race where you can swap bikes, but the noise of it all !! 😯 Wouldn't you notice someones bike sounding like a power drill 😕

check the sequence on that koppenberg vid around 12' what do you think?

Lost a gear, but lost almost no momentum, and regained speed very easily.....

I'm not so sure it would sound like a drill as its not spinning at such RPM figures to create that Vvvvrrrrmm Vvvvrmmm sound that drils make,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Ahem.....

My chainline has a kind of sound to it especially when covered in mud, The womens race yesterday was quite muddy.
But who knows? maybe some riders have flagged up a noise?

They knew which bike to go for, Klunk. I suspect someone did hear it and/or comment on her superhuman performance.

Helen Wyman has done a power output breakdown of the course: - [url= http://www.helenwyman.com/2016/01/preview-of-2016-cyclocross-worlds-course/ ]http://www.helenwyman.com/2016/01/preview-of-2016-cyclocross-worlds-course/[/url]

Shows that a few watts extra here or there would come in handy. There's even a lap with data overlay. Apart from feeling slightly sick at the thought of how hard they ride and the fact that one woman would be riding on the limit to get that profile and another would have a helping motor, the data from CX racing is pretty awesome.

[img] [/img]

Rumour has it, that it was the extension lead trailing across from the charging post that gave it away. Initially the UCI, thought it was a new Nissan Leaf

i can get the lure of 250 watts on tap for 30 mins and being very useful in a cyclocross race where you can swap bikes, but the noise of it all !! Wouldn't you notice someones bike sounding like a power drill

From the gearing on that Vivax I'd assume the motors are being used at high torque, low rpm so wouldn't get that high rev whirring, and at a Belgian CX race you can't hear much over the crowds.

Wyman releasing her power data of that course (courtesy of new sponsor Stages) now seems somewhat prescient!

i guess so the czech rider didn't hear the bell after all 🙂 but even so when under load electric motors can really "whine" even though they are not at high revs.

the data from CX racing is pretty awesome.

thanks for posting, always interesting to read that sort of stuff.

all i know looking at the data is cyclo cross racing is not for me, I like to ease into my riding 😀

That koppenburg vid is pretty damning in itself! Her body language doesn't show much effort!

womens moto-e-cross it's the future. vroom vroom.

Well it takes heat off doping with drugs for a while 😆

Trolling Lance Armstrong with a link to the grit.cx page on this incident. 😀

[quote=Edukator ]A full-size vid (big HD TV on a fibre connection) of the "spinning wheel incident" confirmed to my satisfaction that the rear wheel had stopped before the bike moved off again - it was firmly in contact with the ground as the bike slid to a halt.

Are you looking at this vid?

so pause it at 10s - how big is the rear hub?

now watch carefully from when he unclips to where the pedal goes out of shot, how much does the crank turn? If you can see whether the rear wheel is turning I'm sure you can manage that to the nearest 10 degrees.

Sorry, but you're talking bollocks, no matter how big a TV screen you have there's not enough definition in that video to tell that the wheel has stopped (or that it is still moving) at any point - though actually you can see where the front wheel stops turning as you see the spokes in a way you never see with the rear wheel...

Can we just go back to the case where they've found a motor in the bike (unlike Hesjedal's where they checked it and there wasn't)?

It's a shame the motorbike ran over it,,,,,, that's all I'm saying, anyhoo moving on in some respects there's now loads of people who know about CX racing who knew nothing of it the other day.

And where might some one find one of these ere motors? Say frinstance I required one, for training purposes?

I'm kidding, I'm kidding I'll stick to doping, that way I won't be regarded as an out and out cheat,

Klunk - Member
womens moto-e-cross it's the future. vroom vroom.

Oh eck, Incommung.....

At the time that everyone was obsessing about the Hesjedal video, I did not believe motor-doping was likely to be a major thing, because of the total impossibility of talking your way out of it if caught. I [url= http://wideopenmag.co.uk/2014/09/proof-that-roads-really-are-the-biggest-cheating-bastards-ever-response ]wrote[/url]:

Imagine a commissaire weighing a normal looking racebike with the weight of a battery and an engine in it.

“your bike has an engine in it” he says

“It must have been some over the counter hay fever medication that I bought in a Spanish pharmacy” the rider replies “I didn’t realise the bike had an engine.”

You see how insane that would be..?

Now, we have the young Belgian woman [url= http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/femke-van-den-driessche-denies-using-motor-at-cyclo-cross-world-championships/ ]explaining how a motor must have ended up in her bike on raceday[/url]:

"That bike belongs to a friend of mine,” she said. “He trains along with us. He joined my brothers and my father. That friend joined my brother at the reconnaissance and he placed the bike against the truck but it’s identical to mine. Last year he bought it from me. My mechanics have cleaned the bike and put it in the truck. They must’ve thought that it was my bike. I don’t know how it happened.”

This is "the dog ate my homework" level stuff. I continue to think that anyone with half a brain will work out that the complete absence of plausible deniability if you're caught means that it is vastly riskier than blood-doping, and most will decide it just isn't worth the risk.

🙂

The real issue I have with the excuse of a bike mixup is that surely she would have known the bike she was riding was not hers and had some form of assistance - she isnt an amateur and will have a good enough familiarity with her fitness levels and how the bike rides to tell straight away.

Plus I doubt the electrically assisted bike would have been a total secret to her and the team even if it was a supposed mixup - it isnt an off the shelf setup after all.

This is deliberate cheating and realistically either the whole team or portions of it are involved too.

Thankfully this hasnt been found in a race like the tdf and exposed, if that happens the big tours may as well cease to exist as competitive road cycling would be rightfully labelled as a complete sham.

. I want the friend do do a polygraph though

The idea a pro would hop on a bike and not be able to tell its a different bike just from the wear on the paint etc is bloody ridiculous!

just from the wear on the paint etc is bloody ridiculous!

Also it's not clear that she actually rode it

Also Also it does look like a very elaborate set up: my friend bought my bike from me a year ago, rode the course this morning with my brother, left it muddy next to our team van and one of our mechanics used it by mistake

Depending on the team set up, the mechanics could have between 5 and possibly 40 or more bikes to deal with. It's only the riders right at the top of the game who have their own personal mechanics.

And a lot of pros are bloody useless with bikes. They just ride them, instead of focusing on the details. And

Also it's not clear that she actually rode it

[quote="xyeti"]No i'm not new to Cycling, i've been riding bikes over 30 years, compete regularly and know that Di2 isn't used successfully in CXyou must be a bloody liability when out and about then. Completely unaware of anything that's going on around you.

And solar or dynamo charging? You are on crack. Definitely.

So the friend rode on Friday with her and then his/her bike dissapeared and they didn't worry about it overnight ? if my team bike had gone walkies I would be asking around as to where it was !

I think Cookson said it was the bike she had been riding, so I think her career is fairly over - shame 😆

As to the team, personally think if someone is found cheating (chemical or mechanically) the whole team (rider included even if they change teams) should be banned from that event for the next x years (personally I would say 2, except for the olympics which would just be the next olympics) as this would make the teams and the riders start putting pressure on everyone to ensure they are straight.
I know this will be harsh on the clean riders, but it stops them from turning a blind eye.

I would do it in all sports - so looks like America and Jamaica would struggle to have sprint teams in the Olympics

So, has the 'friend' turned up to corroborate her story yet?

And this morning we all wake up to the outpour of News feeds on this topic, whilst She is probably in hiding somewhere outside of Belgium.
It'll be a good many years before she'll be able to walk the streets head held high, damn near impossible to return to CX or possibly Any form of cycle sport. For a young kid, CX racings all shes know and been brought up with, trained for and devoted her life too. It's going to be one hell of a shock when she does pluck up the courage to sling a leg back over a bike.

Whilst we all know the gossip from "Corduroy Cooky" lets face it, no evidence at all yet, just his word, a few words in a press conference and a whole internet full of innuendo and derision with Youtube vids taken at odd angles on the Kopp' and speculation abound, and pointy finger wags with Guilty slapped all over them.

Until the evidence is shown and proven, I remain on the fence.

I really wish her the best, I hope she stays stable and focused and has the support she needs around her.

C'mon UCI, Prove the allegation(s)

it would be nice to see a press conference with the evidence - shouldn't be to difficult to do

Seems like the UCI have a simple, quick way to check for motors now, so hopefully this isn't widespread like many are trying to make out to be. Just a one off I hope.

ISTR they were having a good look at the bikes in last year's TdF - putting cameras down the seat tube of Chris Froome's bike for instance. It's difficult to see how mechanical doping could evade that sort of inspection.

Has she denied there was a motor in the tested frame? I thought that was already incontrovertible. It's therefore reasonable that all the circumstances are investigated before any further statements are made.

[quote=bikebouy ]Until the evidence is shown and proven, I remain on the fence.
I really wish her the best, I hope she stays stable and focused and has the support she needs around her.
C'mon UCI, Prove the allegation(s)

Do you seriously think they don't have any evidence and haven't found a motor? Presumably you think the most important thing to do at this point is a press conference presenting the evidence to silence doubters like you?

Has she denied there was a motor in the tested frame? I thought that was already incontrovertible

As to the team, personally think if someone is found cheating (chemical or mechanically) the whole team (rider included even if they change teams) should be banned from that event for the next x years

In these situations delays tend to be legal rather than technical, the UCI will want to ensure that what they say at a press conference will stand up to any legal challenges.

Ghostlymachine, are you STILL refusing to accept that a motor has been found in a bike, and as for solar charging why is that ridiculous? KERS charging?

What I actually meant to say with regards Di2 was that I "me" hadn't used it successfully, I found it costly and inconsistent, and I kept breaking it, Which would be fine if I didn't have it to pay for.

And yes I am a bit of a liability when out and about, if you saw some of the shit I'd gotten up to you would "maybe" understand why.

aracer - Member
Do you seriously think they don't have any evidence and haven't found a motor? Presumably you think the most important thing to do at this point is a press conference presenting the evidence to silence doubters like you?

I remain on the fence, like most rational people, until the evidence is proven.

I don't think that my position is in any doubt as to where I stand on this.

You seem to "just believe" which is fine, if you like that sort of thing.

Bloke who makes them speaking to Italian newspaper Gazzetta dello Sport:

"In the last years, I've sold 1200 bike engines. I laugh when I read the Gran Fondos results."

i've been riding bikes over 30 years, compete regularly and know that Di2 isn't used successfully in CX

What I actually meant to say with regards Di2 was that I "me" hadn't used it successfully

You are back pedalling so furiously there, I reckon you must be assisted by a secret motor of some kind.

Well I "Thought" She'd basically admitted it, Then blamed some one else.

A date has yet to be set for a hearing, Thats prob when they will display their evidence. I'm not sure pacifying Naysayers is at the top of their agenda right now.

And i just Believe, that evidence has been found and they are "Yet" to present it.
Some folk rely on people sitting on fences, hearing the evidence and being rational. What happens then is a good defence lawyer abuses the privelidge of other folks ignorance and stupidity and rips their unwillingness to commit one way or the other to shreds, leaving "Reasonable Doubt"

That way the person involved gets to carry on, and having gotten away with it once well whats the problem, it's not like anythings gonna happen? Is it.

Have you watched cyclocross

No, otherwise I'd be on the other forum =)

So what you're getting at is: Changing bikes is normal and it's also normal to not recognise the bike you're on?

As you were then 😉

Slight edit - I still think that's really weird, but then I have a compulsion to recognise/place everything I touch and see

[quote=bikebouy ]I remain on the fence, like most rational people, until the evidence is proven.

No, I don't think your position is rational at all. A rational person would accept there's a motor when the UCI have reported they've found a motor, and the rider involved has made statements admitting that there's a motor. What other possible cirumstances could there be which leads to such statements being made? Demanding evidence is a position taken by conspiracy theorists.

There is a little problem in this case as it is a national event. I believe that they have already said that the Belgian team won't be penalised as a team

Neal, i havent used it successfully, and i dont have a team van and my own mechanic. i'm not paid by sponsors to use it AND most importantly, I cant pedal backwards.......... thats what kicks the motor in.

😛

Some folk rely on people sitting on fences, hearing the evidence and being rational.

Damn those rational, evidence based thinkers.

That's no way to get a lynch mob organised.

Nobody is trying to get a lynch mob organised - it's just that some of us accept that when the UCI says they've found a motor that means they've found a motor.

I wont be convinced until the B-test comes back positive.

I'm with bikebuoy on this one. If it's proven to be true then it's the end of a young lady's career, one that she's probably devoted most of her life to so far. Let's see what the UCI come up with.

Nobody is trying to get a lynch mob organised - it's just that some of us accept that when the UCI says they've found a motor that means they've found a motor.

I don't disagree with that.

It's just that I've never seen anyone criticise other people for being rational and relying on evidence, as if that's a bad thing that should be discouraged.

[quote=aracer ]Nobody is trying to get a lynch mob organised - it's just that some of us accept that when the UCI says they've found a motor - [b]and the rider involved hasn't denied that[/b] - that means they've found a motor.

I wont be convinced until the B-test comes back positive.

isn't that the BB-test?

MrBlobby, I also agree with Bikebouy on the young girls career, it is sad, She has no doubt devoted a good part of her childhood to conditioning herself and performing at the highest level for a good few years.

At some point though it looks "To Me" this is how i'm understanding it, That she hasn't quite got the edge, maybe not got quite enough capacity or the mental aptitude to push through and take the win. Some one has taken the decision to assist performance.
She may well have ALL of the above and maybe just a case of "Everyone else is doing it so why can't i"
It may well be a case of mistaken identity.

But the UCI have announced the find, I thought i'd read that at least, and they are setting a date for a hearing.

If she is clean and hasn't raced on the bike then MAYBE there could be an element of the unknown leading to unreasonable doubt. But the UCI have foreseen this type of excuse and changed the rules in 2013 for instances just like this.

[quote=nealglover ]It's just that I've never seen anyone criticise other people for being rational and relying on evidence, as if that's a bad thing that should be discouraged.

The trouble is, the person claiming to be rational and relying on evidence isn't.

I think your concern for the young lady's well-being is admirable bikebuoy, after all its unlikely this was all her idea and hers alone.

And I'm sure she'll sufer far more of a backlash in her native land than a British rider doing same.

But while she's notionally "innocent until proven guilty", most of us accept that the UCI appear to have a found smoking gun and been given a ridiculous excuse for it.

[quote="xyeti"]Ghostlymachine, are you STILL refusing to accept that a motor has been found in a bike, and as for solar charging why is that ridiculous? KERS charging?no, she's admitted it. I can read too. And as for the rest of it, just spend 5 seconds thinking (actually thinking) and it should be painfully obvious why it's ridiculous.
[quote="xyeti"]What I actually meant to say with regards Di2 was that I "me" hadn't used it successfully, I found it costly and inconsistent, and I kept breaking it, Which would be fine if I didn't have it to pay for.and the rest of the world finds it no less reliable or damage tolerant then mechanical. And far more consistent. Just more expensive when you do break it.

Maybe you need a mechanic.

What strikes me as odd is that if these motors are a real "thing" and if they are so beneficial, then the engineering companies making them stand to make substantially more money by actually putting them in consumer versions of the bikes rather than in just a handful (??) of pro bikes.

Given how f-ugly most bikes with an electric motor are, surely there'd be a massive market for tidy little motors hidden in the seattube which are so powerful that they can provide enough W to propel one elite cyclist away from another?

Battery tech etc is so limited in most other forms that I'm simply impressed that some niche engineering company has come up with a way of delivering power boosts in a compact and light form.

Maybe i do, Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.

which are so powerful that they can provide enough W to propel one elite cyclist away from another?

I would have thought it was more a matter of keeping the athlete out of the red longer so that they can attack with greater effect.

You can buy them - it was mentioned up there (and of course they've just been given the ultimate bit of marketing, I wonder how much they paid her to get caught? 😈 )

http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/produkte/vivax-assist-4-0/vivax-assist_4-0.php

Not cheap though, even compared to other e-bikes

What strikes me as odd is that if these motors are a real "thing" and if they are so beneficial, then the engineering companies making them stand to make substantially more money by actually putting them in consumer versions of the bikes rather than in just a handful (??) of pro bikes.

Good point.

Can I assume from now on that 80% of the people quicker than me on Strava are motor-doping?

Well as they have confirmed that its the bike she was racing it does mean she was technically cheating.
As to whether it was intentional is a different matter but now its going to be hard for her to prove not.
I do wonder that if the bike needed a battery and she didn't have one fitted , for example, she would be guilty. Or just carrying extra weight?

But the UCI have announced the find, I thought i'd read that at least, and they are setting a date for a hearing.

I guess that's it. The UCI have found some evidence that they believe points to a rule violation. She's been "charged" with a violation but not yet found guilty.

Let's just keep in mind that this is the career of a young person we're speculating over.

That she hasn't quite got the edge, maybe not got quite enough capacity or the mental aptitude to push through and take the win.

I'd be a bit surprised given her age and that she has a lot of years to develop ahead of her.

larkim, ebikes are more for touring and have pretty big gear boxes and even bigger batteries, one of these devices are meant to be hidden in the frame, concealed, and i can only imagine are fairly small.
Probably reliant more than anything on Battery status. Gel batteries could be utilised as oposed to a more conventional Solid State battery pack, slipping 3 AA's down the Chain stay via a hatch with a made in Taiwan logo embossed underneath would give it away.

These concealed devices "I think" are more of a one time hit, on that bit where you need to get away on a climb, or when your hanging out, I dont actually know how they work, but imagining they cant last long.

Like most things, Oh yes its got a 3 hour battery life, then its flat in 20 mins, but i think everyone racing on e-bikes, is a good idea, level the playing fiels back out a tad.

Gazetta dello Sport reporting on electromagnetic wheels as the latest approach to mechanical doping.

That she hasn't quite got the edge, maybe not got quite enough capacity or the mental aptitude to push through and take the win.

or been sacrificed to take the heat off someone else...makes you think.

mattsccm - Member

Well as they have confirmed that its the bike she was racing it does mean she was technically cheating.

Apologies if already mentioned, but for those who are interested, Cyclist magazine did an article on these devices several issues back. If I get chance later I'll see if I can find a link.

[quote=CaptainFlashheart ]Gazetta dello Sport reporting on electromagnetic wheels as the latest approach to mechanical doping.

From what I can gather from what I've seen of that it appears to be a load of rubbish by somebody who doesn't understand electromagnetics very well (or they've been taken in by somebody doing a deliberate spoof). You can't just make a motor with the rim of the wheel without something for it to work against (not one providing any usable amount of power).

What strikes me as odd is that if these motors are a real "thing" and if they are so beneficial, then the engineering companies making them stand to make substantially more money by actually putting them in consumer versions of the bikes rather than in just a handful (??) of pro bikes.

Gazetta dello Sport reporting on electromagnetic wheels as the latest approach to mechanical doping.

Gazetto dello Sport appear to be taking their stories from this thread then

For pure amusement I suggest that his brake blocks where magnets and there was a current passing through the rim.

Well done Tonto, you're a source now 😆

I really wish her the best, I hope she stays stable and focused and has the support she needs around her.

Let's just keep in mind that this is the career of a young person we're speculating over.

I think this is a very important point to remember, even if it turns out she was deliberately cheating, we need to remember that she won;t have done so in isolation, there will have been external influences, assistance and possibly even some level of pressure, and at 18/19 she, like many young people will have felt that pressure very strongly, and people make all sorts of stupid decisions when young that they later go on to regret, she may be an adult, but only just and growing up as a top level athlete is a terribly difficult thing, even when you're winning.

While I'm sure she may deserve punishment, and maybe a lengthy ban, it IS important to recognise that a lot of blame will also lie with the surrounding individuals that both enabled this, and are responsible for that pressure*.

As Bikebouy says, I hope she gets the support she needs as this will be tough for her, and far lesser things have lead to terribly tragic outcomes.

Throw the book at her (them) by all means, but make sure you're there to deal with the bruises too.

*I mean come on, what respectable team/coach/support network would [i]allow [/i]a young athlete to make such a bad decision, let alone assist them, or worse, push them into it? It's not something she could have done alone, the team/support are as much to blame as anyone.

[quote=zilog6128 ]A quick read of the specs of the device in question says it supplies only 200W (which AIUI is a good deal less than most consumer e-bikes), the battery only lasts for 60-90 mins (which isn't much of a ride) plus there is no speed control over the motor, it's just on or off. So not great for an e-bike, but ideal for giving you a bit of a boost during a race!

UK legal ones are only 250W and 200W is plenty - especially if used more as an assist given these are going to be fitted to bikes ridden by people with higher power output than most normal e-bike riders. 60-90 minutes of power, you don't have to use it the whole time (if you use that just on the climbs, that would be a pretty long ride). It's hard to tell exactly how it's working, but they mention stuff about it sensing pedal revs and only working in a given range, which suggests it does modulate the power rather than just throwing it all in - the on-off switch is probably just an add-on to the usual e-bike stuff.

I have to admit it's quite tempting in a way - if it wasn't so expensive it would be a laugh to have on the local chaingang 😉