Am I being unreasonable? - Sonder Bikes

I'd just ask them to send the standard build, but the components myself and sell the unused bits. Long-winded right enough and shouldn't really be necessary but dealing with custom changes like this can be a pain for the retailer so I can sort of see where the costs come about.

Dont forget the labour charges to do the swaps

Yes, I'd say there is some muddled maths their end. You can't tell someone the special order part is costing £125, they are paying £150 extra for it but not getting the original in the box too. That's daft.

And was the correspondence re the quote clear that you wanted both cranks and lever change? If so, coming back now and wanting the extra seems off too.

If course...cough...is this c2W voucher actually for cycling to work? My righteous moral high ground to get miffed might be lessened if I was gaming the system for a toy.....just sayin.

tjagain
Full Member
Dont forget the labour charges to do the swaps

From memory alpkit/sonder build up in batches as they sell them.....they were bolting a crank and a lever on anyway - bit more admin agro but no more spannering.

Yeah replacing the cranks shouldn’t cost the price of the cranks rrp when you are then not getting the set they are presumably squirreling away for another bike build. I don’t think you are being unreasonable here

Re the lever, just tell them to forget it and buy and fit yourself for cheaper. Or just get a fox one which is perfectly fine for the job at a third the cost

Agree with above, just ask for your new cranks to be included on the side for you to fit.

Assume you don’t have the quote in writing, so the dropper lever mistake is probably on them (forgot to add to quote?), but if just a verbal agreement you don’t have a lot to come back on.  More of a pain than a crankset to fit, but just order the cheaper one and fit yourself or pay a shop to do it.

Asking you to pay for the new cranks and keeping the old ones is very cheeky.  If it was a no cost swap out or just a labour change (what’s a crank swap, 15-30 mins tops?) I could sort of understand it.

FWIW I’ve just ordered a new bike and the shop is swapping the saddle for an alternative at no cost (not sure if I’ll get the old one as well - I’m not expecting to), they are also fitting a set of tyres I’ve given them (and will be getting the ones that came with the bike) plus doing the steerer cut and re-doing the internal hosing before I pick up.

I have emails discussing the quote:

"Could I get a quote for this build please?

Camino Al GRX1

Fork Camino Al Forks / Carbon Jaffa

Wheels Sonder Nova 650b Wheelset / UK Build Microspline

Frame Small / Jaffa

Handlebar Tape Sonder Reels Black

Handlebar Sonder Bomber 56cm

Saddle Sonder Abode Black / 138

Seatpost Not Required

Stem Sonder Storc 60mm

Forks Standard Fork

Tubes WTB Inner Tube / 700 / 38-45 Black

Drivechain 10-45t Cassette

Bottle Cages No Bottle Cages (none)

Lights No Lights (none)

Lights Accessories No Bike Light Accessories (none)

Mudguards No Mudguards (none)

Pannier No Pannier Rack (none)

Pedals No Pedals (none)

GRX 1x12 165mm cranks

GRX dropper brake lever"

"Thanks so much for your email.

As a Ballpark quote it would be around £1449.00 in the current sale.

Lead times may vary!"

I'm willing to forget about the dropper lever as it was stated "ballpark" and obviously I'm saving money in the sale and using cycle 2 work but I think they should send the cranks.

I should've just got it for £1299 and swapped the parts and sold the originals and done it myself

I can't follow the maths... but a 165mm GRX810 chainset (if that's what you're after) is going to cost them full whack right now, if they can source one at all... where as the left over 172.5mm (or any other length) will be hard to shift... so it's not going to be a cheap swap that one.

Nowhere in your email did you mention cycle to work. They also didn't give you a definitive quote or lead time. Either pay what they're now asking or go and bother somebody else.

Nowhere in your email did you mention cycle to work. They also didn’t give you a definitive quote or lead time. Either pay what they’re now asking or go and bother somebody else.

That isn't the only email. There was back and forth as I was checking the changes were possible and I did discuss cycle to work as I know some places have a surcharge or discounts aren't available

Freaky, you're asking for pretty much the same changes I asked for.

When I purchased Easter weekend, build estimate was 5 to 20 days, it's now 3rd May. Apparently some Shimano stuff is out of stock. Welcome to buying a bike, they're always delayed - I'm not overly worried.

165mm GRX is only available on the 610, not the 820. These can be picked up for £120, I'm guessing you'll get half that back selling the old one.

The bike comes with 610 shifters but the dropper lever is only on the 820 which I believe also have the servowave linkage. In which case, I'd expect both shifters to be swapped as a pair. If they are doing that for £200, that sounds not too far off looking at the difference in retail price.

Remember, most bolt on drop bar dropper levers at £70+

Interested to know how this pans out. I'm awaiting a quote for the shifter upgrade but expecting to replace and sell personally.

I wondered why they always have random new parts for sale on their eBay site, it all makes sense now.

From what you've explained it sounds like they're selling the parts twice (1st to the person who wants a custom build and then via the eBay site), win win for them!

I wondered why they always have random new parts for sale on their eBay site, it all makes sense now.

From what you’ve explained it sounds like they’re selling the parts twice (1st to the person who wants a custom build and then via the eBay site), win win for them!

I don't think it works like this with Sonder. When you buy a bike online it doesn't exist. Or rather it does in components in many parts bins. On order the bike goes into a build queue and will be built up from what the customer ordered. The 'unused' longer crank will just stay in the parts bin where it was until the next bike build comes along. It's not coming off a bike - it's just never gone on.

But... if they buy enough chainsets in bulk based on the bikes they expect to build... and then order in a special (and in this case hard to source) part to use instead... then they have a spare chainset, which understandably they'll shift on as an orphan part.

Surely they just order one less of the standard spec on the next batch.

Take your business elsewhere if stinks.

But… if they buy enough chainsets in bulk based on the bikes they expect to build… and then order in a special (and in this case hard to source) part to use instead… then they have a spare chainset, which understandably they’ll shift on as an orphan part.

They sell the same frame in Sram flavour, Shimano flavour, flat bar, drop bar, hydraulic brakes, mechanical brakes. 4 different colours. Choices of bars and bar tape, seat posts, wheel -  it goes on. Inevitably they will be overstocked in certain options or colourways and need to balance this from time to time . But they are not going to be wringing their hands at a thought of a spare unusable 'orphan' chainset knocking about - it way too big and complex an operation for that.

Surely they just order one less of the standard spec on the next batch.

Who says they'll buy another batch of the same groupset? Shimano might change the groupset, Sonder's frame model might change spec, they might decide not to use Shimano for that model at all. Why should they hold onto broken up build kits and wait and see? They could end up with mismatched stuff as the world moves on.

172.5mm GRX810 chainsets is exactly one of the items we end up with spare at Cotic as well as it happens (you could buy one off us if you're looking for one). Getting 165mm ad hoc substitutions absolutely part of the service... but they cost, and supply of them is a bit iffy right now... and the spares are best moved on while they are current rather than held on to.

Camino being discussed is the new 1x12 610 rather than the 11 speed 810 so not going anywhere soon.

I was very tempted by the Cascade and one of the appealing aspects was that it was more straightforward to swap bits. However, for what I wanted, it just felt a bit too close to my hardtail.

But… if they buy enough chainsets in bulk based on the bikes they expect to build… and then order in a special (and in this case hard to source) part to use instead… then they have a spare chainset, which understandably they’ll shift on as an orphan part.

Isn't that the commercial risk they take when any company bulk buys to either get to minimum order numbers or discount thresholds? If they don't want that to happen then don't offer custom build options.

Similar questions arose for the purchase of the Mrs' Camino, delivered a month late in January; we wanted a 165mm crank, so with a risk of further lead in time issues I simply ordered a 38t GRX610 from Germany and swapped it over.  I'll very likely use the original 40t, 172.5 one day on another bike.

Unfortunately for Sonder, they built it without the the 10-52 cassette we'd paid extra for but to their credit, that was sent quickly and without any fuss.  It's a great bike for the job its now doing.

I've now sent an email asking for a standard build but set up tubeless, upgraded saddle and with bottle cages and pedals to make it up closer to my cycle to work voucher (about £15 under).

Part of me feels like I don't want to piss them about as I'm sure they are busy and obviously there has been a mix up. I'm also paying less than the bike costs now. But then I also don't want to pay extra for a bike that I only ordered because it was on sale so hopefully this is a good compromise.

Did you negotiate the deal and then say you’d be paying by C2W rather than card ? If so I think that is the issue, I know that the couple of bricks and mortar shops I use do not do their sale promotion deals on C2W as it costs them substantially more than a card transaction

Id just have ordered it stock and changed the bits myself. I was stroked to the tune of £50 for a Pro dropper lever which coincidentally I fitted to my Camino.

Should have AliExpress'd it.

Was reading on LFGSS that cables are now routed into the head tube..

It's always baffled me that having your preference of stem length/bar width/crank length on a new bike isn't just something you get with buying a new bike from a shop without additional cost.

Sounds like they made a bit of a mistake on the quote, combined with some bike to work tax.

You are being unreasonable

Cost of a bike is never the sum of it's parts

There a shambles and there cock up.cancel and go elsewhere

I’ve only had great service off sonder. 2 bikes all tickety boo 🙌🏻

Sonder /alpkit don't charge for c2w and when I had mine spec's they were great to deal with. I changed tyres and had a brooks saddle on and only got charged tbe additional (difference). But, don't assume sonder are selling you the part at rrp. They will have bought most standard kit bulk with associated dicounts and one offs are costly. Also build dates are an estimate. First come first serve and they've just had a sale on so the queue will have grown.

On the positive, I really rate the bike.

Lat year I asked for a price on a Camino frame + fork + wheels + headset + stem. The price was about the same as the fully built Camino flat bar version. So i very nearly bought that to sell the bits to help fund my build. But in the end i was tempted by a NP Digger at a knock-down price.

Still fancy a Camino though...

I would cancel the lot on principle if it's possible as part of the (not) Cycle To Work thing.

I've bought 2 Sonder bikes including a Camino in the last couple of years. The Signal came with a 150mm dropper post. I only noticed after I received and used the bike that a 170mm dropper was a no cost option. I asked if I could swap it and they did.

That doesn't answer if the OP was unreasonable, I just want to highlight some excellent aftersales service from Alpkit that I didn't really expect.

It’s always baffled me that having your preference of stem length/bar width/crank length on a new bike isn’t just something you get with buying a new bike from a shop without additional cost.

Having all the various variants of stem/bar/crank length available for fitting on every bike they sell would represent a major cost to the shop though, wouldn't it?

Having all the various variants of stem/bar/crank length available for fitting on every bike they sell would represent a major cost to the shop though, wouldn’t it?

I don't think it'd be too bad, it's not like they need to have a full set of options for every single bike they have in the shop. It's going to take the workshop time to fit anyway, customers will need to come back to collect, so there's time to order in.

"I’ve bought 2 Sonder bikes including a Camino in the last couple of years. The Signal.."

I have a doppelganger. Ace bikes, great company IMO, they have answered emails swiftly and always answer the phone within 2 or 3 rings with a knowledgeable person on the end.

“ Sonder /alpkit don’t charge for c2w”

No, but they would be quite in order not to offer sale deals on it though. This is common practice with many bike shops I understand.

so there’s time to order in

Absolutely, and that part will likely cost more.

Absolutely, and that part will likely cost more.

Sure. But a fairly small amount more compared with the cost of the brand new bike you've just sold, and you get a part back to use on the next build - which might save you an order in the next time.

From a consumer point of view, I'm also expecting to pay a premium to buy from a bricks and mortar shop - if I'm not getting some fairly minor adjustments for that, then why wouldn't I spend a fair bit less and buy it online?

Regarding shops not offering sale bikes on c2w scheme purchases - I had this experience in a specialized concept store. I was told that the 60% off the bike wasn't applicable as I wanted to use a c2w voucher

I went elsewhere that did offer c2w on end of season discounts

No, but they would be quite in order not to offer sale deals on it though. This is common practice with many bike shops I understand.

I bought mine in sale. No c2w charge. Great to deal with. Customisable and very happy with it. Not contesting the experience of the OP was bad, just providing a bit of good old balance based on my experience.

I spent weeks with Alpkit arguing about a broken zip on a jacket. They seemed to be implying that my wife didn't know how a zip worked. To be fair, they replaced the entire zip in the end but it wasn't easy and would certainly make me think twice about using them for anything in the future (around the same time, one of my own Alpkit jackets developed a fault but I've just ignored it as I could do without the aggro of dealing with them again...).

This is why it's vitally important to never work in customer service,  sales or any role directly dealing with customers.

@aidy

I think you’re probably over simplifying it - most bike companies will bulk order in the components well in  advance and in bulk. To then potentially customise a large number of them it’s going to need loads of additional parts and time to deal with getting the different bits in and fitting them as a different spec. This will have £££ to it both in terms of parts and labour time.

In this case they are also likely taking a C2W hit to the bottom line as well.

I’ve had a couple of custom C2W builds with Sonder and have found it easy and no unexpected cost implications.

Have you tried picking up the phone and talking to some one?  I’ve always found their customer service to be really helpful.

I've had several bikes from Sonder and have had good experiences iincluding my latest being delivered a few days after ordering (Camino Ti).

That said. I upgraded seatpost on order to Ti and got charged full retail - no reduction for the alloy one I didn't get. Small beans so not a worry.

On the downside, the BB died within a month and also the gear shifting was very stiff from the start (GRX 1x12) and having done some research I came to the conclusion it needs a specific cable (not the Fibrax one fitted).

I raised a query on both and despite multiple chases on my part have had no response beyond their chief mechanic being too busy to answer.

I've fitted a Hope BB and the proper cable and all is now good, but I am probably down best part of £200  and not getting a proper response is a bit of a disappointment on a top of their range purchase.

BTW - their 10% dividend concept doesn't work out quite as I expected either...

They're cheap. Something has to give.

daverhp - fitting non-original cables and casings is a mortal sin that many major brands partake in. It often leads to utterly crap shifting. But it is an issue I have seen in sooo many different brand bikes - like the "big S" too - not to mention that bike brands put on "Sram" or "Shimano" drivetrain, but instead of a good original manufacturer chain, they put some KMC cheapo chain, or in some cases, the cheapest possible brand chain - like SX from Sram that will rust the first time it sees use. You can find substitutions like this in even very major brand e-bikes costing 6000+ e. Its nuts, but you got to get every penny possible to shareholders, I guess.

And casings and cables are almost always something like Jagwire, even when everything in the drivetrain is Sram or Shimano. Works much worse.

Sometimes I have had to replace all internally routed cables and casings when doing a first maintenance to expensive road bikes, when the gears work like utter crap because of this, and customer was not happy at all with what they had done at the factory.

There's an issue with GRX 12 speed and acute cable bends with internal routing. I pointed it out to Sonder more as a bit of info they might not be aware of as its quite specific conditions to cause it.

That and the premature BB failure have cost me a chunk though, so no reply is a bit of a letdown as I generally have a high opion of Sonder. Never mind, great bike 😀

Am I being unreasonable?  I ordered a Colibri on the 30th March, in the sale, with 105, the upgraded wheels and tubeless conversion.
The tag line read "Buy now.  Be riding in 10 days".

My order had a build date starting on 22/04/2024 (more than 10 days!), which has now been pushed back to 29/04/2024 (almost a month!).
Everything appears to be in stock, so I'm not sure what the delay is.

I've emailed them, of course, but is this normal for Alpkit / Sonder?

Yes, it's normal for them. I ordered a Camino when it was 'riding in 5 days'. When I got a third email postponing to the fourth week after order, I was in a bit of a bind cos I really wanted it for a certain date. So I phoned them to explain. They said it was limited by the time to build the wheels, but offered to do their best and get back to me. They never got back to me, but I chased them every day like a looser, and they got the bike built on time.

Overall I was happy, but original estimate and communication could be better.

Propain are another company who offer customisations of their stock builds, who offer a fast delivery, and they have a considerable delay. Their communication was even worse though, taking many days to respond to an email. I love the bike, but it was a sour taste to start the experience.

It's a build to order company, build dates are an estimate and with the huge number of options available and a recent sale it's bound to take longer than you might want.

Should they be answering emails all day or getting on building your bike? Or hiring more staff solely to answer emails and significantly raising their prices to pay for them.

It’s a build to order company, build dates are an estimate

Sure. But prominently stating ready to ride in 10 days and then taking over 3 times that isn't cool.

No estimate is better than a very bad estimate, especially in the days of most purchases arriving within a day or two.

I ordered Easter weekend when the wait was 5 to 10 days. Not had a single email yet but I'm aware the date has been pushed out to the start of May.

Maybe I've been riding bikes too long, but unless you can go into a shop and wheel the bike out there and then, isn't this pretty much always the case?

Certainly was when I worked in a bike shop in the 90s boom.

Cycle to work costs the shop 15% of the value to process. At that point all good will has to end and you need to pick-up the tab for every penny or the shop starts losing money. It's nothing personal of course, just the reality of cycle to work means with someone else's hand in the till, in your case in a big way they cannot spare you a single penny on the bike.

I don't know how they worked it out, maybe there's a mistake, but you are still losing them a bunch of money Vs someone paying on a card say, so go easy!

But pay on a debit card as I did, and you don't get any more.

I'm just subsidising the C2W hit.

My preordered built to order Cotic arrived on time, fwiw.

A positive slant; not bikes but clothing repairs.

Last Wednesday, we sent a pair of Montane Featherlight trousers to them for the repair of two rips.

That's them back today, fixed.  The repairs are very neat and barely visible.  Happy days..

Regarding shops not offering sale bikes on c2w scheme purchases – I had this experience in a specialized concept store. I was told that the 60% off the bike wasn’t applicable as I wanted to use a c2w voucher

I went elsewhere that did offer c2w on end of season discounts

It depends on the shop and the brand/distributor.

A smaller shop is having to either buy bike upfront and is then discounting from their own margin at the end of the year to sell off any that didn't sell at RRP.  At this point it's possible they're making no margin or even a loss to clear the shop floor or maintain cashflow over the winter if things aren't going well.

Somewhere like Paul's is buying up stock from brands/distributors cheaply at the end of the year. So they're still making their margin even selling at 60% off because they bought the bike from the brand at 60% off the trade price.