[Closed] Am I Being Unreasonable? (LBS content)

I don’t use LBS’s if I can help it as I don’t trust anyone to do work the way I want it done

That makes you sounds very arrogant so I am going with you being unreasonable

I dare you to post on Mumsnet about your unsatisfactory reaming.

you asked for a service, they didn't provide the service, you paid them anyway?! .. ??

You don't like confrontation!? how about basic assertiveness?

You should have said before you paid it wasn't right, by handing over the money you've kind of accepted the work.

So yes, you're being unreasonable in being annoyed.

I'm not sure what they mean by internal butting preventing this - surely the tubing is thicker at the ends than the middle so once they reach the point where the butting "starts" the tool will just hit empty space ?

Unless that's what they mean - that below a certain point the seatpost won't be in contact with the tubing any longer.  Still don't see why it'd make things impossible though

You should have said when you picked it up.  No point in moaning about it online now.

Id be disappointed about handing over £20 and not getting a good reaming..

you're being unreasonable

you've paid someone for their time and to use tools that you don't have, they have done the job to the best of their ability and more importantly they have not compromised the integrity of the frame, which you would have been a bit annoyed at if they had done so and it had failed at a later date, despite them giving you the result you specifically asked for

I would have asked there and then what am I paying £20.00 for ..as you have not done the work requested ?

I think the moment has been lost now..its not being  confrontational n your part ..it's called not being ripped off ..grow a set !

I would like to say that I am a huge supporter of my lbs ..but then he is a mate and someone I ride with..I also don't think  he would have charged just for cleaning it out ..

I’m not sure what they mean by internal butting preventing this – surely the tubing is thicker at the ends than the middle so once they reach the point where the butting “starts” the tool will just hit empty space ?

Unless that’s what they mean – that below a certain point the seatpost won’t be in contact with the tubing any longer.  Still don’t see why it’d make things impossible though

My guess is they could go no further than the top tube joint.

Reaming out a seat tube beyond that which it was probably designed to doesn't seem a good idea to me but then my knowledge may not extend to the (claimed) extent of the OP's!

Poor communication by the LBS, you should probably have paid half the amount for their time and put the balance towards a new frame that will do what you want it to do.

PS: What you really need is a dropper post.

HTH

My guess is they could go no further than the top tube joint

I'd think pretty much all manufacturers would stipulate a minimum insertion point that's already BELOW the top tube joint - or am I out of touch there ?

I'd also be amazed if the seat tube outer diameter was different below the TT joint and I also can't really see why it should make a significant structural difference, reaming it to the same internal diameter as the "unsupported" tube above that joint

(err, no, I'm not an engineer :blush: )

get the seat tube reamed out a bit deeper to get a bit more insertion depth on the seatpost without having to cut it down

What is wrong with cutting it down (assuming you are not really lanky and need the full length of the tube)

 I’m not going to be the guy who quibbles over £20

instead you are the person who pays £20 for them not doing what you as and then moaned on the internet about it. Which version do you think is happier? I would have haggled there and then; they deserve something for their time but not at the agreed price as they have done a different job.

you’ve paid someone for their time and to use tools that you don’t have,

They paid for a specific job that was not done and instead another job was done that did not need doing is a more truthful way of describing it

they have done the job to the best of their ability and more importantly they have not compromised the integrity of the frame,

The customer is meant to  pleased they did not break the frame - that is setting the bar a bit low. Bring your bike hear we wont  fix it but  we wont break it either - its not going to entice me to use them.

 despite them giving you the result you specifically asked for

I suggest you re read the OP as they are clear they did not do what was asked and did something that did not need doing

junky - the "specifically asked for" bit was in relation to "what if they did what you wanted and then the bike broke?"

I don’t use LBS’s if I can help it as I don’t trust anyone to do work the way I want it done

That makes you sounds very arrogant so I am going with you being unreasonable

Not sure about this I avoid taking my bikes to bike shops for this exact reason. This way if it ends up knackered I've only myself to blame

And to the op it's a bit late now you've paid tbh

I didnt think reaming a frame was even a thing. Surly it will weaken the area around the suspension pivot or whatever. Just cut yer post or get a dropper.

I can have £20 for not doing the job please?

I'm going to agree with JoB. They're not in business to not do jobs. They will have booked it in, not done some other paying work instead, taken the seatpost out, looked inside seen it was all covered in grease so they'll have cleaned that out first then got the reaming tool [s****] out, prepared it then started to take it down your tubing [wry smile]. Found that there was a solid obstruction. Taken the reaming tool [s****] out had a good look, seen that the tubing had an internal butt and then used their professional judgement to not write your frame off by just carrying on anyway. Regreased the seatpost put it back and tightened everything up to torque

it's life unfortunately. If you get a job at work that you spend some time on but it turns out to be fruitless and you can't do what the client has asked for I bet my bottom dollar that you expect to get paid for that time. If you do, why would you expect someone else not to?

Seems like a very odd request in the first place, surprised the lbs took it on to be honest.

I'm with Ol Blue Eyes.

What Dickyboy said.

If it was structurally safe to ream further down the seat tube, the frame manufacturer would have done so.

I’d imagine that given your request they’d expected to find burrs that could be tidied up with the reaming tool, but found that there was a structural reason not to proceed, in which case they did the right thing.

It's their time and expertise you're paying for innit. Shame it didn't work out, but if you hadn't paid then it would have been the LBS who lost out as they could have filled the time with another paying job instead.

As above, it may have been prudent for the LBS not to have taken the job on in the first place.

They’ve done the job you asked. Pay them. It sucks that the results of them doing that job didn’t produce the outcome you had hoped for.

What firestarter said 👍

Firstly it seems an odd request to alter the frame when lopping a little off the bottom of the seatpost would have had the same effect. Cheaper, easier, less destructive if something went awry and you could have done it yourself with a hacksaw and some sandpaper/file in about 10 minutes.

Secondly you've paid rather than telling them you're not happy so they've got no way of rectifying what you perceive as a problem.

Thirdly, You've gone to an LBS to make a frame modification, I can't imagine it a very usual request for the average bike shop mechanic. If you really want it done take the frame to somewhere like Argos (not the catalogue shop) and get them to do it.

Fourthly, they're right to err on the side of caution. The tube butting exists for a reason and removing a portion of that material would likely have voided any warranty on the frame and may well have made it less robust.

Did you mean to post this yesterday morning?

I think the issue stems (seatposts 🙂 ) from your mistrust.  You didn't ask for an outcome, for which they could provide advice on how to achieve it, rather you asked for a specific job, based on your (partial, and insufficient or inaccurate) analysis.  You probably did this because you mistrust them, but in the future, you'd be much better off taking the bike in and saying "I want to achieve XYZ - what's the best way of doing this?"

To which they would say "You could try and ream, but you might have issues, so I wouldn't recommend it; the best way would be to cut down the seatpost or fit a dropper"*

*Clearly, I'm making this bit up to suit my version.

EDIT : What tomhoward said

They’ve done the job you asked. Pay them. It sucks that the results of them doing that job didn’t produce the outcome you had hoped for.

Appreciate all of the replies - I'm not moaning per se, hence why I was asking if I was being unreasonable in being a little miffed. The replies from sillyoldman and aP have pushed me towards thinking that yes, I was being a touch unreasonable. It's not the shop's fault that they couldn't complete the request, and it would have taken them their time to get to that point. Calling it halves on the bill would have been nice, but it's not their job to be nice.

The seatpost is vintage NOS which is why it hasn't been cut down btw. Seat tube is straight tube, hence my assumption that it could be reamed to a greater depth than the manufacturer had as the wall thickness wouldn't be reduced to any less than at the ST/TT/SS junction, and the middle of the seat tube is relatively unstressed anyway.

Some of my old bikes had seat tubes that were butted internally, below where bottle cages were mounted or just thicker near BB.

The shop may have saved your frame failing at a later date through weakened tubes.

I think it is poor communication between shop and you, but I am also with JoB - they put time and effort in to trying to accommodate the request.

They clearly haven't done the job as requested.  That may be a good thing if there's a genuine reason for the thickening*.

I imagine a REALLY good LBS might have advised this at the point of the request

AN adequate LBS might have stopped at the point this one did

A shit one might have continued - or hit a rivnut and not realised what it was ??

*(I'm not calling it butting though until someone convinces me that anybody deliberately makes tubing thicker in the middle - is this cheap plain gauge that's been milled out to a consistent diameter at the top end, maybe ?).

I wouldn't have charges the full amount but would have charged enough to cover the workshop time at the very least.

They’ve done the job you asked.

They clearly have not done it, they even explained why  they have not done it [ and it was good call on their part]. I have no idea how anyone can read this and claim that.

You're not being unreasonable, you're being a dick.

Thanks for the constructive input! Very helpful 😉

They spent *time* working on your bike full stop. That is time they did not spend on another bike for another customer.  That requires payment regardless of the fact that they could not do exactly what you wanted. They would not know that they could not do it until they *worked* on your bike.

While yes, you appear to have paid for nothing, you haven't. You are being unreasonable I'm afraid in my opinion.

We wouldn't have charged.

If we can't complete the job the customer asked for and we took on then there is no bill.

If you took your car to a garage to have the brakes fixed, and they gave it back to you having not fixed the brakes but wanted £200 anyway would you be happy?

If you took your car to a garage to have the brakes fixed, and they gave it back to you having not fixed the brakes but wanted £200 anyway would you be happy?

Just to push the metaphor a bit further (too far?) :

If I took the car to the garage because the brakes were bad and said "bleed the brakes please" and they attempted to bleed the brakes but discovered the master cylinder was leaking you wouldn't have a right to be annoyed that a) they charged you for working on them or b) the brakes were still bad because your initial diagnosis was inaccurate.

If, on the other had, you took the car in saying "there's something wrong with the brakes, please advise what needs doing to fix them", it's a different kettle of fish, IMHO.

IANALBS, of course 🙂

I was very clear when I dropped it off that the reason I wanted the seat tube reamed was to increase the insertion depth of the seatpost. The bottle bosses are well below where it would have needed to be reamed to, so there was no other physical obstruction that could have been reasonably expected to interfere with that.

Interesting to hear that other shops would have said "Sorry, can't be done", and not charged. Maybe if they'd said "That seems like an unusual request - we'll charge a little for our time to have a look, and the full amount if we can do the job". Standard practice in my industry generally - we quote to have a look at whether the work can be done, then the final invoice is based on whether or not it was completed.

So you aren’t a regular customer you took his time and space up so that he could discover something that you hadn’t and you think 20 quid is expensive!

im not sure the lbs will miss you much to be honest

I also don't understand where this butting was.  If it was in the middle of the tube something is very wrong.

My take on it.  If the OP had come in wanting a particularly rare and exotic set of brakes bled and, once the mechanic started the job, he discovered that this particular set of brakes needs a particular brand of mineral oil and anything else will destroy the brakes then I would expect the shop to return the bike and not charge anything.  The customer hasn't gotten the service they asked for and the shop has used some time but crucially has gained the knowledge that they can't service this set of brakes and any future customers can be told this straight away without wasting any workshop time.

In this case, the OP has not gotten what they asked for and had to pay £20 for the privilege.  The LBS has gained knowledge (what knowledge I don't know because I don't understand how a tube can be butted in the middle) and been paid £20 on top of that.

Knowledge and experience is a very important commodity for a bike shop because, when it comes down to, it that is what the customer is paying for.

LBS out of line I reckon.

I wouldn't have paid them tbh but equally, if I did cave and pay, I wouldn't feel terrible about it- they've not ripped you off, it's basically a racing incident. Don't waste any more thought over it, is what I'd recommend.

That requires payment regardless of the fact that they could not do exactly what you wanted.

This is true but i would be a tad reluctant to pay the same price and pay for a task I never asked them to do and did not need doing. they do of course deserve paying as they had to take it apart to see they could not do what was asked of them and the work that was quoted.

Can’t believe anyone would take this job on. Do it wrong and you ruin a frame, do it right and get paid pennies.

just been learning about bulge butted seat tubes - if that's what the OP's bike has, then I can imagine that reaming might be catastrophic

I think at the very least the LBS owes the OP a proper explanation as to why the job couldn't be done.  Maybe they gave him one and he just hasn't been able to describe it to us but from the way he's told it so far it makes no sense.  Who butts the middle of a tube?

Can’t believe anyone would take this job on. Do it wrong and you ruin a frame, do it right and get paid pennies.

Reaming a seat tube is a standard worksop job, thats why lbs's have the tool. I'd imagine they though there was a burr or two that needed cleaning up. I'd imagine the OP thought the same. When I worked in a Lbs we probably wouldn't have made a charge in this case. But it's probably fair to make some charge. I don't think the Op is off to think it's not right to charge him the full amount. But it's only £20 live and learn.

It would be interesting to know why the tube got thicker a bit further down, it doesn't sound normal.  The idea that it was plain guage tubing that was milled to fit a seat tube isn't stupid.  Some tubing is also rolled and seam welded at which point you would also need to do something to fit a seat tube (I don't know if they do that for bike tubing though)

If it was only a case of a few mm I would have thought it was ok. More than that I would want to know more about why the tube was butted and by how much

edit: and considering @taxi25's comment, I wonder if there is a difference to how it 'feels' when removing burrs compared to removing real material - ie. the shop got to the point where they realised that it wasn't just a burr blocking the tube and decided to stop there (which isn't unreasonable imho)

How far down the tube is the butting?  How long is the seat post?

Thread should have stopped here:

you’re being unreasonable

you’ve paid someone for their time and to use tools that you don’t have, they have done the job to the best of their ability and more importantly they have not compromised the integrity of the frame, which you would have been a bit annoyed at if they had done so and it had failed at a later date, despite them giving you the result you specifically asked for

Not really.  Either the shop didn't know about this type of frame tubing beforehand in which case they gained some knowledge and experience and had to pay for it with however much time it took to investigate.  Or they did know about it and took the job on by mistake.

Either way the customer shouldn't have had to pay anything.

Bulge butted:

Reynolds say:

When frames are being constructed by TIG welding, the single-butted seat tube, with 0.5mm wall thickness at the top, would not be strong enough to accept the heat of the welding. One method to overcome this is to use a sleeve over the outside of the tube. However, Reynolds eliminate the need for this with bulge-butted seat tubes. These are double-butted tubes, with different thicknesses at each end. A typical tube would be 0.9/0.6/1.2mm thick. At the 1.2mm end, we then bulge the tube so the inside diameter is 27.2, which would take a standard seat pillar. The frame builder also has the extra thickness for TIG welding

They gained 20 quid but lost a new potential customer.

I wouldn't go back to them personally but there are excellent bike workshops out there.

I'm not going to comment on the rest as I seem to be in the minority here...

However, Can anyone give me a half decent reason why a bike shop didn't bother to call/ text the customer to say there was an issue carrying out his request in order to defuse the situation in the first place?

Personally, if I get a message to say to come pick up a car/ bike whatever, I tend to assume all is well and the job has been done?

If there is a problem for any reason I think it's reasonable to be told beforehand.

I think the fact you said you don't like confrontation so just paid it but then came on to a forum to have a childish winge says a lot about your character.

Very odd

I'm not having a childish whinge at all! I felt put out at the time, but often have difficulty in ascertaining whether it's me being unreasonable (as I have a habit of being) or whether it was justifiable. Hence I thought I would seek the opinion of the hive mind. If you look back at the previous page, you'll see that I concluded that yes, I was being a little unreasonable, and gracefully accepted that. 🙂

In response to your other remark; yes, I am a little odd..

Big-Bud

I think the fact you said you don’t like confrontation so just paid it but then came on to a forum to have a childish winge says a lot about your character.

Very odd

Many people don't like confrontation. I don't. He then comes on here to ask opinions and is very accepting even of negative ones.

Seems a reasonable guy to me.

You seem judgmental and small minded frankly.*

I find that odd.

*If I were to judge you based on a single post on a forum...

I would expect a phone call to say it cant be done, how would you like to proceed.

I stop work when something unexpected comes up and, explain options/costs and ask the customer how they wish to proceed from here (unless contingencies were agreed previously)

Sounds like poor communication. I would also for a job like that initially quote, its X to take a look, Y to complete the job assuming it can be done.

Not all bike shops/mechanics are bad, just the same as any other industry, there are brilliant/good/bad/lazy /incompetent etc, problem is finding out who is competent can be expensive! Talking to the mechanic is often better than talking to floor staff who book it in and then the mechanic works for their notes, lots of potential for confusion there between customer, floor staff, notes, and mechanic

Looking at that picture above it looks like it should be 27.2 mm from L1 down to L3.  I would imagine that L3 would be a few inches above the bottom bracket.  If they were reaming that far down I'd be very surprised.

Unless its a small frame and a long seat post I can't see butting coming into it.  If its a long seat post (400mm?) just cut it down it won't be NOS condition for much longer with 350mm of post in the frame.

Like tools and dislike lbs? £17 gets you an adjustable reamer (plus you need a few quid more for a handle). Then you can discover how much sweat and time hand reaming a decent amount out of a steel tube takes 🙂

https://www.tracytools.com/straight-taper-reamers/11-16-13-16-adjustable-reamer

The opening post is wrong in more ways than I can be arsed to comment about.

OP - what’s the frame so we can cut out all the avoidable babble about the seat tube internal dimensions?

For context: I don’t use LBS’s if I can help it as I don’t trust anyone to do work the way I want it done – I’d always rather buy the tools and do it myself so that I know it’s been done right.

I know how you feel. I had a bike that went in for frame bearings and they declared that "it didn't really need them and we've just repacked them instead". They charged me a shit load of labour only and the bearings were completely knackered 3 months later when I inspected them.

I bought the tools and parts the next day and taught myself how to do the job myself. It cost me less than I had paid the LBS to make a pig's ear of it. I've not taken a bike to a shop since.

Sorry to all of the LBS mechanics here - I'm sure you don't suck but my LBS did and I wouldn't use one again.

Reaming a frame for more post penetrative insertion seems like a bad idea.

They probably should have just called you back to say it's not doable.

If you can't safety saw a little bit of the seat tube then it seems the frame is completely the wrong size for you.

Why would you want to modify the frame rather than shorten the seat post?

I would not have paid . They didn't do the job you asked them to do . A bit like asking somebody to go and buy you a chicken and they come back with sausages and expect you to pay .

They didn’t do the job you asked them to do . A bit like asking somebody to go and buy you a chicken and they come back with sausages and expect you to pay .

But they took the effort, workshop time and staff to attempt to. Is it the LBSs fault that the actual work could not physically be completed ?  If it had taken 30 mins to find out it was not possible.... They still need paying for that 30 mins ?

Plenty of tradesmen will come to your house and quote for jobs free of charge . If they don't get the job they don't send you a bill for their time . I had 3 quotes for a new kitchen that must have taken a good few hours to do , including a home visit obviously , sending me a few pictures of how the kitchen would look , fully itemized costings with alternative prices for different brands of electrical goods . The ones who didn't get the job got nothing for their work .

It's the LBS's fault they couldn't tell the OP that the work was unlikely to be possible.  From his description, unless there was something really really strange with the bike, it should have been obvious there might be an issue.

If the shop doesn't tell you up front that, even if they can't do the job, you'll still have to pay then that's not right.

The ones who didn’t get the job got nothing for their work

Not quite the same, as I suspect your kitchen designers/salesmen would be on a wage with commission added if they make a sale.

Even if a bike shop starts a job and then discovers the work is not possible, they've given over mechanic and workshop time to it already. I'd expect to pay something, though maybe not the full whack.

Disclaimer - I've not had any work done in a bike shop in over 20 years, as I worked in them as a teen/young man, have most relevant tools, and have access to a workshop, etc. as part of my job.

However, I do see the value in a good lbs if you can't do the work yourself.

Frame is the '87 Cannondale SM400 20" that I had for sale in the classifieds after a full restore.  The NOS seatpost I fitted to it would only insert about halfway into the frame and I (at 6') could just about ride it - I wanted to have the factory reaming depth increased in order to allow shorter riders to fit the bike without having to cut the seatpost shorter thus restricting it for taller riders in the future.  As it's an aluminium frame, with a continuous OD seat tube and decent wall thickness, I has assumed that it was only a small lip at the end of the factory ream that was preventing deeper insertion of the seatpost.  As mentioned before, even a 4" increase in reaming depth would still be well above the upper bottle boss, and well below the weld junction with the top tube.

6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

I've taken frames to be reamed/faced/stuck parts removed to the LBS before and not been charged if they've not been successful.

On the other hand, they have reamed the tube (just not as far as you wanted).  And If it was me doing the work* I'd probably have refused to ream it past the original depth because you have no idea what sort of loads it'll be designed for. Usually reaming in a bike shop is just to take excess paint off as opposed to frame builders who have to make sure it's still 27.2mm or whatever after welding so understandable they might not want to do more than they're comfortable with.

*not an LBS mechanic

Frame is the ’87 Cannondale SM400 20″ that I had for sale in the classifieds after a full restore.

Is this whole thing just a hugely elaborate stealth ad? 😀

If they have a fixed size reamer (e.g. for a 27.2 post it will be around 27.3) then quite possible that step was too big and the reamer won't cut past it.

Sounds like there will be plenty of wall thickness. So you really need an adjustable reamer to start with a small cut and work up. I think the adjustment break point on the reamers I've used was around 27mm, so you might actually need two reamers depending how small the original tube bore is. And something like paraffin for the cutting fluid.

Back then they probably had very limited tube size options. So maybe the raw tubes were machined out almost to size in a lathe before welding, leaving just a bit to clean out with a reamer post-weld (hence the lip).

Whereabouts are you?

"That said, I took a bike in on Friday to see if I could get the seat tube reamed out a bit deeper to get a bit more insertion depth on the seatpost without having to cut it down..."

This has my alarm bells going already. The butt is usually thicker at the end of the tube near the join (or the high-leverage area the seatpost sits in) which makes me wonder how long your seat post is and what exactly you're trying to achieve.

Edit: just read rest of thread. Still reeks of weirdness. Personally I would be incredibly hesitant to start reaming a 31 year old frame that was renowned for cracking 30 years ago.

The NOS seatpost I fitted to it would only insert about halfway into the frame and I (at 6′) could just about ride it – I wanted to have the factory reaming depth increased in order to allow shorter riders to fit the bike without having to cut the seatpost shorter thus restricting it for taller riders in the future.

If originality was important, would it not have been better to just state that the seatpost would need cutting down (or use another) than making irreversible modifications (and potential damage) to the frame?

One thing this topic should teach anyone is never start a 'rant' topic on the interweb.

But have to agree with P....jazz - amazed a late 80's Cannondale with a 6' rider is not cracked anyway.  BITD most of them my riding friends owned did (in the seat tube area) but if it isn't I certainly wouldn't be going anywhere near the seat tube with anything more involved than an Allen key. 😉

Cheers for the input - I thought I'd steered clear of "rant" territory tbh! I'm just bad at judging whether I'm overreacting to a situation, hence asking others' opinions.

The frame in question is extremely low mileage and I doubt has done more than a handful of rides in its life, but I take the point - especially considering that aluminium ages in a way that steel frames don't. I did state originally that the seatpost could be cut down if required, I just thought that extending the reamed depth was an alternative option (on my '09 Voodoo the seatpost can be inserted all the way down to the bottle bosses), but if it isn't a good idea, then no bother.

All input and comments have been appreciated, thanks 🙂

Perhaps 'rant' was the wrong word, 'complaint' maybe.  🙂

But however you word it you will always get a mixture of support/abuse/downright hostility and name calling.  Best just to keep it to yourself IME!

FWIW you sound like a thoroughly mellow and reasonable chap and have taken the 'abuse' parts in a very commendable way.  😀

Thanks - I try to take a balanced view of things if I can and am happy to admit when I'm in the wrong.

For those thast asked, the seatpost has 325mm of insertable length, the current insertion depth is 190mm, and there is a further 80mm below that until the upper bottle boss.  I've never had a frame with that little insertion depth on a seatpost, so naturally assumed that there was only something minor preventing the seatpost from inserting fully, and that having a reamer run down it would rectify this.

I’d have paid.

The shop still had to go to the time and effort to set up job. It was only not possible to complete because of the frame supplied. LBS generally aren’t no win no fee.