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It would only be insane if people weren’t buying them.
I wouldn’t buy one, but I’m not priced out at that money. (I don’t earn squillions, but I also don’t do anything else expensive, like drink or reproduce)
I have always wanted a Yeti. One day.
I was at one one point thinking about an Argonaut race bike, my dream would be to fly across and pick it up and spend a week riding it. Of course I would return with my bike bag full of my used bike 🙂
https://argonautcycles.com/bikes/custom-road-bike-rm3/
In the end, and after 17 years of saving, I bought a Colnago. When I was looking last Spring, a Cervelo was going from £6k to £9k with the next delivery. Inflation and profiteering???
Yes I was their target audience back when I bought the SC carbon frame from the off it was very similar price to that of a yeti, I chose sc due to the warranty/backup
I would still be their target audience if the frames were still reasonably priced around the 3k mark
I am now not their target audience clearly! Nor will I ever be at 4.3k and even a bigger better paid job won’t change that as I see it as a crazy jump from the already dear prices of ~3k
A sentinel at £2100 now seems like a bargain in comparison.
A carbon Bird is 1740 without a shock - I'll admit not quite in the same indended use as a Sentinel (or SB150).
Nicholai (alloy) frames are starting at 2700 now, Oranges 2600.
Its not the material thats to blame.
"Insane" is a bit strong yeah, but the "not bad value" someone said up there... really mate?
Silverfish were mentioned up the thread, they've been known for their greedy pricing and questionable service for years. Combine that with the likelihood of snappage and you'd have to be very fond of turquoise.
tomhoward
Full MemberIt would only be insane if people weren’t buying them.
I wouldn’t buy one, but I’m not priced out at that money. (I don’t earn squillions, but I also don’t do anything else expensive, like drink or reproduce)
Of course if people desperately want something they’ll pay it, and there will always be people like that
However, how can it not be classed as insane?! This is the bit I’m struggling to comprehend, it is insane, it screams out madness to me looking at that number on a website for just a frame
I’m not priced out per se, but my mind has priced it out there is no justification other than greed for them putting a price that high on it
I mean if you were to compare it to the motorised similar version it does seem a little bonkers.
2022 Yamaha YZ250F Monster Edition
"I’m not priced out per se, but my mind has priced it out there is no justification other than greed for them putting a price that high on it"
What if manufacturing costs and shipping costs have gone up that much? What if lead times have increased substantially and money needs to be invested up front for a much greater time before the goods arrive? What if the manufacturing partners have suffered a decrease in output capacity so the operating profit for the business (paying for marketing, salaries, business overheads etc) is spread across a smaller number of frames?
I've just finished an enormous costings and pricing spreadsheet for my business and I'm sure some of the new prices will lead to people accusing me of greed, when the reality is that most of our customers are wealthier than me or my staff, and the new prices reflect current costs and a need to actually make a living.
However, how can it not be classed as insane?!
There are cars that cost more than my house. Not supermegahypercars, just top of the range SUVs, from mainstream brands.
There are watches that cost more than those cars.
There are watches that you couldn’t buy after a 7 figure lottery win.
Basically all these things are bought with the heart not the head, sanity doesn’t even enter the equation, and bikes are getting that way.
However, how can it not be classed as insane?! This is the bit I’m struggling to comprehend
Because cost and value isn't just a reflection of the price of a thing.
Basically all these things are bought with the heart not the head, sanity doesn’t even enter the equation, and bikes are getting that way.
Its a toy, a recreational item. An amusing way of passing your time on this planet.
Yes they cost a lot - and there is always a motorcycle comparison - but the reality is that in the modern world cheap credit means that even a 10k bike is accessible to a decent proportion of western europe and north america, if they chose to do so.
https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a20006323/mountain-bike-review-yeti-575/
So that's a 575, alloy frame set, @ 3k
In 2010
At 2.5% per year that would be £4k. In alloy, making no account of the huge increase in costs of everything over the last 24 months.
No custom designed suspension.
No carbon.
No Collapse of the £:$
TBH im priced out of most new bikes!
the paintjob is a bit duller, but having seen the stuff Marin has coming out, their pricing is looking ridiculously good for some very capable bikes (and their new £10 grips are brilliant from what ive seen on their team bikes)
half the price of the yeti fr a better bike with better support
https://www.marinbikes.com/gb/bikes/2022-alpine-trail-carbon-2-frame-kit
So that’s a 575, alloy frame set, @ 3k
Not quite just a frame. It’s 3k USD, so £2400ish and includes a fork, headset, bb and saddle
The 25th anniversary 575 will be sold as a frame kit for $3,000 and will include the frame, fork, headset, BB and saddle. A complete build will also be available for $4,500 in limited numbers
£3600 got you a full bike.
I think that’s where you’re wrong, they aren’t a mainstream brand, that title goes to the likes of Giant, Trek, Specialized etc. they’re a boutique brand with a good following.
It’s like saying Lamborghini are a mainstream brand
It's not though, is it? As far as I'm aware Yeti frames (and Santa Cruz etc) are built in the same factories as everything else in the Far East. Maybe to a higher standard but still just churned out of a factory.
The days of them being USA hand built are long gone, aren't they?
Yeti, and to a lessor extent Santa Cruz (and others) have always been the Veblen make makers.
They're good bikes, some of the best, but they're rarely THE best, even if you could quantify something like that.
I don't believe there is a rider out there, from Noob to seasoned Pro rider who could honestly, hand-on-heart say that Yeti makes a better bike than mainstream brands like Trek or Spesh or Direct Sellers like YT or Bird. They will always offer a quantifiable reason to their customers, weight, racing success, strength or whatever, but claims are often vague, unimportant or plain old false.
That's not to say they're not 'worth' it, but that worth is in 'pride of ownership' or plain old 'showing off' if you prefer. If you're a Richie Rude fan and want to ride the same bike, if it makes you happy, it can't be wrong, shit even if you just want people to look at you in the carpark, why not, we're not robots.
Personally, I'm such an introvert, I'd be put off owning a Yeti in the same way I could never wear a flash Rolex.
Another reason, I actually know a serial Yeti owner, he's a big guy and a very aggressive rider, but he's broken every frame he's ever owned. The switch infinity thing is a constant failure point and he'll tell you "warranty though..." and yeah that's great. My bike came with a lifetime, transferable warranty, but I've never had to use it, because they don't tend to break.
I've got another Mate who is a Santa Cruz man, through and through, he's had more than I can remember, they fail too. Usually the lower linkage things, yep "warranty" free frame bearings for life, but they break all the time... He's my best mate and he'll probally read this, he's even stranger (to me anyway) as we all probably know, SC aren't quite as expensive as they used to be, they sell a really good range of off-the-peg bikes that are, if you squint a bit, about the same money as Trek / Spesh, but they also sell a Veblen range of frame-only frames... they cost about the same as the entry level full bikes, he'll happily spent thousands more to build a bike from the posher frames, because they're an 'C' frame and not a 'CC' frame (it might be the other way around) he, like me is a middle-aged Trail centre rider, but SC say it's lighter and stronger... I say bullshit, it's flasher, but it makes him happy.
The 650b debacle and the relentless push by manufacturers and the cycling media, this place in particular, to move cycling upmarket has killed any desire to buy a new MTB.
Sorry, but I just don't want to be associated with such a toxic culture.
I managed to buy my dream, custom spec tourer just before gravel became huge, and I struggled to spend more than £1500.
It suits me perfectly and I'm delighted with it.
It’s not though, is it? As far as I’m aware Yeti frames (and Santa Cruz etc) are built in the same factories as everything else in the Far East. Maybe to a higher standard but still just churned out of a factory.
The days of them being USA hand built are long gone, aren’t they?
off the top of my head (happy to be corrected), Guerilla Gravity, We Are One, Hope, Orange, Nicholi are made in the West and are comparably priced to far east manufacture
Pole, Unno, Antidote, Atherton are above "market rate"
Last are probably halfway between the two groups.
Makes my £1500 handmade, personalised, steel, lasting a lifetime BTR Ranger seem like a relative bargain.
Maybe I’m comparing apples and oranges but still, isn’t that what’s this is about anyway?
this place in particular,
Is nothing compared to some of the sites/social media influencers.
You think the shit I buy is expensive tat? Hang around on Pinkbike/MTBR/vitalMTB for a bit.
Some of those guys make me look frugal.
Makes my £1500 handmade, personalised, steel, lasting a lifetime BTR Ranger seem like a relative bargain.
On the subject of steel, Starling are relatively affordable for a low-volume, high-quality (mostly) UK-made full-sus frameset.
You could almost get two for the price of a Yeti frame, eh?
I too look at some of the marketing guff and "engineered in" pricing steps of bike brands and think "know what, that Shand is good value and more unique...
Each to thier own, and some folks are happy to spend money on what makes them happy...I hold different values around money. That's just fine.
Yeti?
Pay, I had the tee shirt.
It said, ‘Faster & faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death’ on the back.
Never did have the bike though.
I owned a (2nd hand) DH9 some years ago, it was an over complicated beast, too many bearings, some interesting fabrication to make shapes that could have been done with hydroforming.
I'd never have paid the full price for a new one, it was a hoot to ride, a bastard to service and too much bike really for me...
It’s 3k USD, so £2400ish
Well in theory yes, but that $3k will be ex sales tax I imagine so +vat, and its also fairly rare that $ don't roughly equal £ by the time its sold here.
and includes a fork
Ah I missed that
It’s not though, is it? As far as I’m aware Yeti frames (and Santa Cruz etc) are built in the same factories as everything else in the Far East. Maybe to a higher standard but still just churned out of a factory.
The days of them being USA hand built are long gone, aren’t they?
I thought I read somewhere in the recent past that Santa Cruz now has it's 'own' factory in the far east.? If I remember correctly the factory doesn't belong to them but it is contracted by them exclusively so that the factory only makes Santa Cruz.?!
Can anyone corroborate or have I had a brain fart.?
Im sure at this point I can wait another 6 months before changing my 2020 Megatower as resale is lucky to see 1700 .. buy new £2k extra . Simple matter of fact its magpie eyes .. something shiny new and the want over need factor plus subliminal advertising. Here is the 1 million dollar question.. will it ride £2000 better than the previous model, be it last years sb150 or this years . Simple answer no will it buggery. £2000 saved to spend on new shiny parts instead 🙂
chestrockwell
It’s not though, is it? As far as I’m aware Yeti frames (and Santa Cruz etc) are built in the same factories as everything else in the Far East. Maybe to a higher standard but still just churned out of a factory.
The days of them being USA hand built are long gone, aren’t they?
Lamborghini are owned by VW/Audi and share engines and other parts across the brands
And yet I actually bought a 575 frame-only around that time for £800.
Here it is...
I thought I read somewhere in the recent past that Santa Cruz now has it’s ‘own’ factory in the far east.? If I remember correctly the factory doesn’t belong to them but it is contracted by them exclusively so that the factory only makes Santa Cruz.?!
Can anyone corroborate or have I had a brain fart.?
Paul Reed Smith guitars and Orange guitar amps have done the same thing in Indonesia and China respectively.
Both 'boutique' brands whose American/British built products are pricey.
The difference is that they don't charge a premium in relation to other brands for their Far Eastern made products, indeed, they are excellent value compared to the competition.
Paul Reed Smith guitars and Orange guitar amps have done the same thing in Indonesia and China respectively.
Both ’boutique’ brands whose American/British built products are pricey.
The difference is that they don’t charge a premium in relation to other brands for their Far Eastern made products, indeed, they are excellent value compared to the competition.
Wasn't making any claims with regards to the justification of their pricing, just looking to clarify that they don't fit into the often touted argument that they are made on the same production line by the same people as frames that retail at 1/3rd the price. Without knowing the specifics I would assume that buying the exclusive use of a carbon manufacturing plant and it's staff would require a hefty capital investment that has to be paid for.
And yet I actually bought a 575 frame-only around that time for £800.
Here it is…
Looking at the shock linkage and some Google fu that's an 07 or earlier frame.
It looks to change on the 08 model to connect outside the brace not inside. The headtube was also tapered on later models.
So possibly if you got it around 2010 it was an old model and heavily discounted?
As does building a guitar/amp manufacturing facility.
The point stands.
^ like the one Mrs Yak bought in 2007.
I would assume that buying the exclusive use of a carbon manufacturing plant...
... Isn't entirely true.
I could be wrong but, as we're on with assumptions, at best I'd guess they're paying them not to produce other bike frames - and possibly rims these days - but fine with them making cranks or car body panels etc. but even at that I'd be quite surprised
Looking at the shock linkage and some Google fu that’s an 07 or earlier frame.
It looks to change on the 08 model to connect outside the brace not inside. The headtube was also tapered on later models.So possibly if you got it around 2010 it was an old model and heavily discounted?
Ah, I forgot there was a later version.
Yep, mine was obviously discounted - but only from £1,200-ish.
Yet here you are.
Sorry, but I just don’t want to be associated with such a toxic culture.
Looking at the shock linkage and some Google fu that’s an 07 or earlier frame.
It looks to change on the 08 model to connect outside the brace not inside. The headtube was also tapered on later models.So possibly if you got it around 2010 it was an old model and heavily discounted?
Looks very much like the one I had from 2007-2012. Loved that bike apart from the DHX Air which was a terrible shock that never worked particularly well, after custom valving and shimming and servicing and god knows what else it still blew right through it's travel at the tiniest bump. TFTuned had washed their hands of them by that point and it's still just about the only Fox shock they won't touch. It eventually ruptured something internal and lost all rebound damping, by that point I was ready to move on...
Yep, mine was obviously discounted – but only from £1,200-ish.
This is also quite possibly a big part of the pricing now.
Most/many people only buy when heavily discounted so it's priced accordingly, actual price +50% to allow for a 1/3rd off. Of course some people will pay full price but they're few and far between so they get stiffed, 95% of your customers think they're getting a bargain because they got discount.
It's pizza express syndrome.
Yeti are 'boutique'? They haven't been boutique since the John Parker / FTW days. Tomac / Giove / jumpers for goalposts etc. Hell they were even owned by Schwinn at one point. Maybe their head office is boutique, with chairs with actual Yeti covers....?
Unsure why it is an issue/concern/, consideration that the design is 3 years old? You’d be buying brand new – if buying new.
one of 2 possible reasons
yeti owners only want the latest thing.
yeti have a habit of regularly and completely changing their designs and telling you what was wrong with the last one.
dangeourbrain
… Isn’t entirely true.I could be wrong but, as we’re on with assumptions, at best I’d guess they’re paying them not to produce other bike frames – and possibly rims these days – but fine with them making cranks or car body panels etc. but even at that I’d be quite surprised
Or ordering enough that the factory is at capacity making Santa Cruz stuff, which isn't hard to believe, given the carbon frames, wheels, etc. Also SC are part of a much larger group, so stuff from their related companies could count too
Yeti are ’boutique’? They haven’t been boutique since the John Parker / FTW days.
Boutique to me is rare, which is anything but what Yeti are if you ever go to a race. I’ve had a few over the years & they have never failed to disappoint. A quick mental calculation, and I realise I have broken more Yeti’s than all other bikes put together.
And yes, warranty was a predicable pain in the ass.
They are questionably expensive, especially compared to really small carbon frame producers - 20%/25% more than really small brands like Forbidden / Deviate is pushing it a bit. I know what I would rather ride & it’s not turquoise (it’s also no broken, unlike Yeti 😆 ).
I've hated "boutique" ever since I first heard it in relation to bikes.
If you like a small brand because of what they do - nice features, latest geo, grass roots support etc, then I'm all for it.
But it isn't "better" just because there are fewer of them, or because it was made in a shed
🙂 Yes, here I am.
Because:
This is the nicest, most honest, friendliest, most supportive, helpful, inclusive and understanding place on the net.
I may not be happy with the direction that MTB has taken, but your local is still your local, even if they now serve chips in poncy little baskets. 🙂
Hannah's writing in particular makes me happy enough to keep subscribing, the editorial team has a cracking balance and even though the gear stuff is mostly irrelevant to me, I'll be here 'till they ban me.
Sorry, I've missed what the argument is now... not that £4K is expensive for a frame, but whether Yeti are "boutique"? Ohh... Erm, who gives a stuff what you call it, but they ain't Specialized, Giant or Trek are they... I would definitely rather have a Trek these days though.
Or ordering enough that the factory is at capacity making Santa Cruz stuff, which isn’t hard to believe, given the carbon frames, wheels, etc. Also SC are part of a much larger group, so stuff from their related companies could count too
Good point, I had forgotten about them being bought by Pon Holdings.
Having said that though, I seem to remember the claim of a 'Santa Cruz carbon factory' being made in a Santa Cruz article, by the Santa Cruz representative, the implication being that it's something unusual. Given that Pon Holdings also own Cervelo, Cannondale, GT and others I would have thought that if the factory was a Pon Holdings exclusive factory that those other brands would also being claiming to have 'exclusive carbon manufacturing facilities', particularly given the way that kind of marketing plays to the typical Cervelo, Cannondale etc. customer, but they don't (that I am aware of).
Knee deep in speculation and potential marketing bollocks here obviously.. but that's what online forums are for isn't it.?
In 1997 the SRP for an alloy Yeti Lawwill 6 frame was £2999, which is about £5K in today's money.
O.K. they were USA made, but still...
Our frames are manufactured in our own carbon frame factory. We founded this manufacturing facility ourselves because we wanted to be able to manage how our designs were produced, to ensure quality control standards.
From this Santa Cruz article HERE
Whether that means Santa Cruz founded it or Pon I don't know.
Also interesting factory tour video of Santa Cruz.
being made in a Santa Cruz article, by the Santa Cruz representative, the implication being that it’s something unusual.
I think it would be more unusual if the claim made by a rep was completely and transparently honest rather than a gross misrepresentation of a small truth.
I also think its unlikely unless they're regularly pushing that line and I've just not noticed. - as you say to some it would be a big selling point and it's unlikely to be cheap to achieve so you'd think would be quite prevalent in marketing guff.
I might be a cynic though.
Our frames are manufactured in our own carbon frame factory
Is that in the video?
On my device the page linked to reads:
Working with our exclusive manufacturing partner,
Which my marketing speak tells me means "all our frames are made by one factory" not "only our frames are made in the factory"
🙂
OK, going back to guitars....
....Cort, the biggest guitar manufacturers in the world have a factory in Indonesia where they make guitars for EVERYONE, Fender, Ibanez, basically every guitar brand you've ever heard of.
They will make whatever you want, at every price point and apply whatever level of quality control and hands on finishing you are prepared to pay for.
PRS decided that they'd like a separate factory next door, still built by Cort, where they can have a greater level of control. They sent their top people over there to ensure things were just as they wanted.
However, they do not charge a premium for the products that come out of this separate factory.
The top of the line Cort guitars are just as good as the PRS products that are made next door in this separate factory and they cost the same. It's just that PRS like to have a greater level of control.
But yet again, they don't charge a premium for this.
Cort guitars are just as good as the PRS products that are made next door
PRS decided that they’d like a separate factory next door, still built by Cort,
But yet again, they don’t charge a premium for this.
Anymore than what? The cort next-door-and-just-as-good non PRS badged ones or the PRS badged ones that were built next door along with everything else previously?
….Cort, the biggest guitar manufacturers in the world have a factory in Indonesia where they make guitars for EVERYONE, Fender, Ibanez, basically every guitar brand you’ve ever heard of.
They will make whatever you want, at every price point and apply whatever level of quality control and hands on finishing you are prepared to pay for.
PRS decided that they’d like a separate factory next door, still built by Cort, where they can have a greater level of control. They sent their top people over there to ensure things were just as they wanted.
However, they do not charge a premium for the products that come out of this separate factory.
The top of the line Cort guitars are just as good as the PRS products that are made next door in this separate factory and they cost the same. It’s just that PRS like to have a greater level of control.
But yet again, they don’t charge a premium for this.
I know nothing about the guitar market but is there enough competition in that space to prevent companies charging a premium for such a thing..? I'd suggest that the high-end MTB market is pretty small, niche even, and that there aren't enough competitors in the space to keep prices down, particularly given that the self same market perceives value with high price and therefore higher prices actually works in their favour with their intended market. (Obviously that only works up to a point before the market collapses under it's own weight!)
Every model is built to custom specifications by skilled bike fans who understand and appreciate the Santa Cruz products. Their obsession for quality translates to making better experiences for riders.
🤮
On the subject of steel, Starling are relatively affordable for a low-volume, high-quality (mostly) UK-made full-sus frameset.
You could almost get two for the price of a Yeti frame, eh?
Sort of get your point, but having looked at them recently once you’ve specced a decent shock, adjustable shock mount, iscg tabs, (and perhaps custom paint) you’re close, if not more than 3k. Also factor in these frames have no decent integrated chainstay/down tube protection and a single pivot (rather than more complex linkage - not to say that’s a bad thing) which all cost to spec, and it’s not such the comparative bargain.
Lamborghini are owned by VW/Audi and share engines and other parts across the brands
Yep, aware of that but I imagine most, if not all of their cars (wondering about the 4x4?) have a fairly hefty amount of bespoke build, carried out in the Italian factory rather than on a production line in Germany/Poland/Spain/Ukraine?
All bikes share components but the assumption is usually that you'll pay more for a hand built frame over a production line bike. Seems to me that Yeti, SC and some others have convinced people to pay Lambo money for a Audi build?
Just because something is built in the same factory, by the same people using the same materials, doesn't mean it's the same thing. An A321Neo is ~€10m cheaper than an A321neo XLR built on the same line. It's the same size and uses the same materials and people to build it, but the bits that go into it and the complexity is slightly different, so It's a 10% higher cost.
Yeti's suspension frames are unique due to the infinity switch, the amount of bespoke shaped CFRP pieces and types likely make the jigsaw puzzle quite complex, especially around the bottom bracket. There's also the infinty switch itself, which is a substantial additional component. both of these will add cost. The fact that the frame is a competitive weight and cost (compared to SC, Hope, etc) with these additional things is notable.
Similarly - the ARC Hardtail is comparable on weight an cost to a SC Highball, but is intended for much more aggressive riding, which is again notable.
Are Yeti's prices high? Yes, are they comparable to peers despite additional "features"? Also, yes.
I've had two Yeti's and still have an SB95C. I'd happily have another - if I could afford it.
having looked at them recently once you’ve specced a decent shock, adjustable shock mount, iscg tabs, (and perhaps custom paint) you’re close, if not more than 3k
Which of those do you get on the £4.3k Yeti though? I see ISCG tabs.
And the special (magic?) Turquoise paint obviously. ;o)
Sort of get your point, but having looked at them recently once you’ve specced a decent shock, adjustable shock mount, iscg tabs, (and perhaps custom paint) you’re close, if not more than 3k. Also factor in these frames have no decent integrated chainstay/down tube protection and a single pivot (rather than more complex linkage – not to say that’s a bad thing) which all cost to spec, and it’s not such the comparative bargain.
Most riders won't want those things, the only obvious omission as stock is ISCG tabs IMO.
Bit of mastic tape on the chainstay and some protective tape on the downtube and you're good to go.
It's steel and round so it will laugh at rock strikes (hopefully).
It’s steel and round so it will laugh at rock strikes.
It will and even if you do manage to prang it, it's repairable in any number of cheap and efficient ways.
It still won't be turquoise or have a "Tribe" though.
There’s also the infinty switch itself, which is a substantial additional component
The fact that the frame is a competitive weight and cost (compared to SC, Hope, etc) with these additional things is notable.
One person's substantial additional component and competitive weight is another person's almost guaranteed warranty replacement because it's femmer shite.
It will and even if you do manage to prang it, it’s repairable in any number of cheap and efficient ways.
Both steel and carbon fall into this category.
nickc
Both steel and carbon fall into this category.
Only one will be "as good as new", the other will be cracked, repaired - and virtually worthless.
Exactly, no-one would trust a previously failed steel frame.
dangeourbrain
Exactly, no-one would trust a previously failed steel frame.
lol - like you'd ever be able to tell
I'd put money on spotting a repaired steel frame sooner than carbon assuming both are done equally well.
Done properly and painted both are going to be very difficult to spot
Bear in mind a carbon frame is lots of patches/layers stuck together.
You're forgetting that with a braised steel frame it's simply a matter of removing a tube and replacing with like for like. TIG is obviously a different matter.