[Closed] All-time great bike designs - a top 10?

The Compo was wonderful. Very precise piece of kit. I have scars relating to that bike.

Chameleon not mentioned yet unless I've missed it. Ultra stiff back end, short top tube, low seat tube, FUN FUN FUN! That bike is awesome! Oooh, a rock. Hit it, bounce, WEEEEEE, land hard? Never mind, it can take it, ooh a rock!... etc etc.

I love mine. The closest a bike came to this much fun was the original inbred with the small headtube.

Gary Fishers $5500 alembic! ..

also the original gt zaskar

+1

Also, what about the GT Fury - first carbon DH bike. And I'm not even really a fan of GTs.

Great thread, BTW.

Page three and only one mention of the Orange 5. Am I on the wrong forum?

+1 Intense M1 - The most iconic, genre-defining MTB of all?

Personally I'd say the Patriot over the Five...

Was it the first single pivot design? Looks like my 1998 Mount Vision. I listed designs that changed the direction of cycling. If it did, then it's on the list.

Epicyclo, I think the Pugsley is a good call. We may look back and see it as a design classic.

And let's not forget the antithesis of great bike design - the UCI, committed to keeping cycle design in the 1890s.

Good point, maybe that's why I struggled to think of an inspiring road bike design in recent years. The Soloist had some good thinking behind it but I'm not sure I'd rank it with the Moulton or similar.

Samuri, I had a Chameleon in the late 90s, Z1s and Azonic bars, it was ace. But more of a step in the rigt direction than a cycle design game-changer? tbh, as are most MTBs. They've evolved well as a type and along the way there have been few radically different bikes that worked, hence why I think the Jones and the Honda bikes could make a top 10.

cant believe no ones mentioned klein mantra,proflexes carbon 5500 with its carbon girvin forks,cannondales lefty fork ,design and innovation

Djaustin, both of those are far from the first SP design, but the Patriot certainly underpins everything Orange do now and for me it sits alongside the older Spesh Enduros for just being amazing bikes that ride beyond their age and design.

James, would love to meet up for a Cotswolds ride, would need some good notice though. Planning on riding the HONC if I can get in also...

specialized sx?

(not sx trail)

short travel, light enough, strong enough, 4x/Dh-capable.

[img] [/img]

definitely the [b]Brompton[/b] - a real classic design that is used by 1000s of riders every day

[img] [/img]

also the [b]Devinci "Bixi"[/b] (known as 'Boris Bike' in London) - which has fundamentally changed the way public use bicycles in cities (about 8 cities worldwide at the moment and more being added)

+1 Intense M1 - The most iconic, genre-defining MTB of all?

I think the point most people seem to be missing with this thread, is that it's about 'all time great bike designs'. If it were about 'all time great MTB designs', then maybe, but how many on here have ridden let alone owned an M1, or even heard of it? I suspect half the mountain bikers out there at least jolly well have not. What aspects of it's design have transformed the way bikes are ridden or made? Wasn't it simply an evolution of existing designs, a refinement which proved quite successful in an extremely small competitive sport? The M1 was a great bike in the history of MTB Downhill racing. How has it's design influenced the way loads of other bikes are designed and used?

Not to say that niche designs aren't significant; Boardmans' Lotus and Obree's washing machine had a significant impact in the world of track racing, and the Lotus certainly emphasised just how high tech the simple bicycle could be.

And of course it begs the question; how do you define 'great'? The winningest? The fastest? The lightest? The first of it's kind?

To me, a 'great' bicycle design is one that fundamentally changed the way bike design was approached, how bikes were used or the way the general public perceived cycling.

And for that reason, stuff like the M1 does not in any way get a look in I'm afraid, whereas the Brompton and the Devinci Bixi do. The greatness of the design of both these bikes lies in their success at doing what they were designed to do, for the sheer numbers of people that use them. They've 'changed the game' far more than the M1 ever did.

To me, a 'great' bicycle design is one that fundamentally changed the way bike design was approached, how bikes were used or the way the general public perceived cycling.

Elfin- yeah that's what I had in mind, less MTB design and more general cycle design that may or may not include some MTBs. I didn't list any criteria clearly though, I just wondered what would come up based on the kind of bikes I started with. My list had a couple of MTBs that used interesting ideas that weren't really groundbreaking in the way a Moulton was but they were worth mentioning. It's an MTB forum after all )

An M1 or similar could make a top 10 if its design or use was so groundbreaking that it shaped future mountain bikes (it did to some extent), as if it was at the diverging point of an evolutionary line. In that respect I think there's a few early suspension bikes in the running but it's hard to single out one particular model. In the same way it's hard to single out one early ATB to define that change in cycling.

A Boris bike could make the list as a design of a complete cycling solution.

So far I'd add the Brompton, the Devinci Boris Bike and the Humber to a shortlist, they're worthy designs. (editto add, the Lotus too)

(Anyone read the Cyclepedia Iconic Bike Designs book? There's some weird and wonderful bikes there..)

I would say the intense M1 did define a genre (DH racebike). It was the first bike I can think of that was only for DH racing. It was so capable that huge numbers of riders were riding Intense M1s with other people's stickers on them.

It not only influenced subsequent bikes but it also changed the way people could ride and lead to a change in DH courses themselves.

One bike which doesn't get enough credit is the TCR. It completely changed the look of road bikes (Although IIRC dave hinde did a sloping top tube road bike first) and lead the way in reducing the numbers of sizes required allowing affordable carbon frames to come to the market.

I think the original Specialized Stumpjumper has to make the list, as the very first production MTB; the bike that changed the way bicycles were perceived, ridden and marketed.

[img] [/img]

No,nobody copied the M1 with its great design because of how good it was. They just decided to get a hold of one and put their own stickers on it!

A few Gary Fisher ideas should be in there:

Genesis Geometry, early 29ers.
They seem to have caught on a bit.

to add to this topic, I would say the [b]Specialized Stumpjumper[/b] was a classic design in that it was the first affordable complete "mountain bike" that changed the way the public rode bicycles, and led to a flood of similar bikes from other manufacturers including Muddy Fox, Raleigh, Peugot, etc.

^^just noticed the post above with the Stumpy pic

all of the subsequent "mountain bikes" whether DMR Trailstar, Intense M1 or Orange 5 are just further developments of the "mountain bike" rather than revolutionary designs?

full suspension may seem revolutionary to us hardcore mountain bikers but to the mass market a mountain bike is just a mountain bike regardless of suspension?

whereas your safety bicycles, folding bicycles, public hire bicycles are groundbreaking designs

ac282, the TCR's an interesting one. I think it was a highly influential design, but as good as the shape was the size idea didn't really work out so well and they ended up adding sizes. It was simply applying MTB shapes to road bikes - credit due to Mike Burrows for doing it though. But in the highly evolved area of road bike shapes, it was one of the few recent steps forward.

The M1s tricky, part of me thinks that something so use-specific that it can only be ridden downhill isn't a fundamentally good 'bike' design, but at the same time it did influence subsequent MTB design in the way a moto GP bike or F1 car is a test bed for retailed product in the future. For that, it's probably a more important bike than the RN-01 (that I listed despite being a DH-only bike, more for the gearing and chassis design. The M1 had a pretty unique frame back then too.)

Raleigh Burner - it got kids out riding BMX may not have been totally original or new as a concept but had an impact on cycling.

Trailstar - for similar reasons to above...

M1 - really where the modern DH bike started to take form.

Speccy Enduro (03/04? ish) arguably where the concept of the "all mountain" longer travel, airsprung, tougher build bike was brought to the fore. Again not a totally new concept but the timing and excecution do have a part to play...

Completely agree with the coments about the Stumpjumper. A better inclusion than 'the unknown klunker' perhaps as it had a more profound effect on cycling even if it wasn't a fully original design. I'd guess credit would go to Tom Ritchey or Charlie Kelly for the first real ATB that wasn't a converted cruiser.

all of the subsequent "mountain bikes" whether DMR Trailstar, Intense M1 or Orange 5 are just further developments of the "mountain bike" rather than revolutionary designs?

full suspension may seem revolutionary to us hardcore mountain bikers but to the mass market a mountain bike is just a mountain bike regardless of suspension?

whereas your safety bicycles, folding bicycles, public hire bicycles are groundbreaking designs

agreed.

are we talking penny farthing then ,obviously inspired trek to produce the 69er 😆

In terms of social impact, the classic 'British'3 speed roadster proved perfect for mobilising nations worldwide.

Surely deserves a place, a timeless design that has evolved to meet local needs.

Defines the word 'bicycle' for the most people.

Again not a totally new concept but the timing and excecution do have a part to play...

It's difficult to trace back a lot of what we think is groundbreaking to the original design, as I said before one man's bodger-bike is another's influence and bike design is so interesting due to the amount of prior art and long-term evolution of a basic idea.

Credit has to go to anyone seeing a use and adapting something that then has a profound effect of how we ride. But would those bikes make a top 10-20 etc?
Some, maybe. A Chopper, a Mag Burner, a Stumpjumper, a SS Inbred, all bikes that took something already existing as a trend and making it more readily available. Notable for extending the scope of cycling to many, but 'great design' status may also need an innovative step forward, a flash of inspiration too. There's differences between good product management and good design, although to be effective and have good reach you need both.

I don't think a great bike has to have been owned and/or ridden by the masses, or even be that well known by the masses years down the line. It just has to have made its mark.

Some really innovative bikes fail to have any major impact. Like the PRST1. Thats a great bike because it did something different, but it totally failed to have any lasting impact (Sorry Ade). You could say the same about the Moulton, a splending machine completely ignored by most cyclists who completely miss the point and dismiss it as some funny folding bike.

Yet some seemingly unremarkable machines managed to make a massive mark. The Metalhead and the M1 both fit this category. In reality we might have all actually bought and ridden Trailstars and Kona Stabs because they were cheaper, but those halo machines at the top of the tree were the ones we aspired to own - that desire steered the market in a new direction. They showed us what we wanted.

Some things act as an example of what can be done. They show the way, they innovate (or bring together the right mix of existing innovations), but sometimes they just inspire. In the same way Sean Palmer wasn't the winningest DH rider by a long shot, yet his short tenure had a massive impact on the sport. And he rode an Intense. Match made in heaven.

Sometimes certain things come along that somehow, inexplicably, are a bit more than the sum of their parts. Being too objective about such qualities can often miss the point of how they shaped our hobby or sport.

It might seem like it on this forum but the reality is the in-bred cannot be found in every 4th shed you visit in the u.k... unlike the Raleigh Burner! I still wouldnt put either in a list of "all time great bike designs" though.

this thread needs a lot less words and a lot more pictures!

Yet some seemingly unremarkable machines managed to make a massive mark. The Metalhead and the M1 both fit this category. In reality we might have all actually bought and ridden Trailstars and Kona Stabs because they were cheaper, but those halo machines at the top of the tree were the ones we aspired to own - that desire steered the market in a new direction. They showed us what we wanted.

I think they showed a very small number of people what they 'wanted', rather than have the influence on cycling in general that something like a Safety Bicycle or a Stumpy had. The M1 was at the right place at the right time, rather than it being a particularly amazing [i]design[/i]. The reason other manufacturers used rebadged M1s was cos they din't make their own DH bike, yet wanted to use DH's image for marketing purposes. Cannondale were doing their own thing, pioneering stuff like aluminium and carbon production techniques, big fat BBs, fat headsets and suspension tech, which could be argued were equally as influential, and have certainly evolved into more aspects of contemporary bicycle design. If you step outside of mountain biking, DH racing is a tiny tiny sport. Ergo, the M1 did not have the impact and influence of other designs.

In comparison, the Lotus bike that Boardman won his hour record on, showed that composite materials and aerodynamics were the way forward, and has had a much greater influence on subsequent bike design. Yes, track racing is a relatively 'niche' sport, but the Lotus had a far greater 'social impact'.

In reality we might have all actually bought and ridden Trailstars and Kona Stabs because they were cheaper

'We' din't though. 'We' bought hybrids and Spesh Hardrocks and Carreras/Apollos. Only a relatively very small number of people ever bought stuff like you've mentioned.

so, we're not allowed to list bikes that didn't sell in large volumes,

but we're allowed to list the 'boardman' bike.

eh?

(i guess because of the 'social impact' thing...?)

in defense of the M1; it was made with an interesting monocoque main-frame, and still looks futuristic, most of the other stuff from the same period now looks as ancient as my nan.

anyway, GT RTS?

Martin, these are the rules for north west montainbiking:

On any ride over 5 miles;
You will meet a rider on an Inbred.
If there are two of them, the other will be riding an Orange. 😀

people were rebadging iron horse / sintessi frames long before the m1.

the m1 has no place in this list

so, we're not allowed to list bikes that didn't sell in large volumes,

but we're allowed to list the 'boardman' bike?

Yes. I've explained why.

Jackthedog, good points well made.

[b]Elf[/b]
Ergo, the M1 did not have the impact and influence of other designs.

This is a mountain biking forum, so its not out of place to suggest a bike that had a large impact on the sport we all do and love. That it didnt have as large an effect on wider society as the Rover Safety Bicycle isn't really being questioned. This thread isnt specifically about social impact. It's a bicycle design thread, and the M1 was great.

so, we're not allowed to list bikes that didn't sell in large volumes

There's no real criteria, eg Jones spaceframes don't sell in large numbers or influence other bikes really, but I'd put it forward as an MTB in a top 10, as a design it's highly original and well executed, as a product that changed cycling it's not significant at all. so would it make it,we'd need to agree on a listing criteria really, I'm more interested simply in what people consider 'great bike designs'.

By nature of distribution / mass production needs, many groundbreaking designs won't become widely-used products. Then we're into the 'which mass market version of the original idea had the effect on the mainstream' picks. (edit - ie point about the Stumpjumper vs the unknown klunker or vs the first Ritchey frames?)

The definate picks for a top 10 are appearing to be both good designs and widely used 'culture changers', a Brompton or Boris bike for example.

After that it's tricky to say whether design for it's own sake or effect on society counts for more. The designer in me says design achievement is important, the 'pro-cycling for social reasons' part of me says the effect is more important..

Yes, track racing is a relatively 'niche' sport, but the Lotus had a far greater 'social impact'.

Agreed, in that it was a more household-known product, it got noticed outside of the cycling press. How much was the fact it was ridden by a brit and had the Lotus name attached and how much was the bike design itself is debatable, but it's fair to say it was a stunning, original and innovative bike of the time. Of the M1 and the Lotus, I'd vote for the Lotus personally. In an MTB designs sub category, the M1 would be well up there but there's simply a lot of competition for 'notable MTB designs' and maybe less for road bikes.

This is a mountain biking forum, so its not out of place to suggest a bike that had a large impact on the sport we all do and love. That it didnt have as large an effect on wider society as the Rover Safety Bicycle isn't really being questioned. This thread isnt specifically about social impact. It's a bicycle design thread, and the M1 was great.

Ah, but the title of this thread is 'all time great bicycle designs', not 'all time great [b]mountain[/b] bicycle designs'.

And I believe in that wider context, the M1 does not in any way get a look in. IMO.

Truly iconic:

[img] [/img]

ok, here's a log for the fire:

[img] http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQE0L0Y2oCHP6jLUy4mzG-0rbFo4FnJ0SEHsYquLSibvWubma3C1g [/img]

i know, it's just a ****y urban fixie, but it looks cool, and this is helping convert loads of people to the fun of riding bikes.

and it might just save the world; it's one less car, one less fattie. and you can make one out of a wreck you pull out of a skip (and that just makes it cooler)

Has anyone said AMP B3 and AMP B4 YET?

Think this bike the first to use hoist link/four bar and was so good that Specialized bought the rights to use it on there bikes (FSR etc)

Also they bike was light for it's time, forks where a bit poo though

^
Ahwiles

In the same way that the unknown klunker was in my original suggestions, the generic fixie should make a similar list. Clean design, beautiful lines in some examples, plus a social impact in that it made city cycling cool in a way I've not seen since the Muddy Fox Courier.

Good call.

The Lotus carbon that Chris Boardman rode and Mike Burrows designed would make my top 10 along with the Rover Safety and The Windcheetah HPV

Has anyone said AMP B3 and AMP B4 YET?

Think this bike the first to use hoist link/four bar and was so good that Specialized bought the rights to use it on there bikes (FSR etc)

Also they bike was light for it's time, forks where a bit poo though

It was flexy too.. it'd be worth including on the MTB shortlist tho. The Proflex of the time was a better bike I think? When travel was so short, 4-bars made no real difference. I liked the simplicity of the Proflex, the fork was notable and the pivot placements were closer to spot-on than earlier SP bikes. V2 Proflexes had that now-proven SP general position.

specialized demo 7

has fsr suspension platform which has become a really good design

ok, here's a log for the fire:

is not that more 'marketing' than 'design' though? I mean, us urbanites have bin cobbling simple fuss-free bikes together for decades.

As a 'type' of bike, it's a good call though I spose. Remains to be seen whether or not it will stand the test of time though, as it's more a 'fad' thing than anything really.

Cannondale seized on the fact many urbanites were using fully rigid mountain bikes with slick tyres, and brought out theBad Boy range, which seemed to span an entire generation of black/grey simple no-frills utilitarian do-it-all bikes.

But on the subject of urban riding, how about the Dutch bike? They've bin round for centuries it seems, are solid, reliable, simple and stable. Upright riding position great for short pootles about town.

[img] [/img]

And are currently very fashionable amongst trendy young ladies who don't like the more aggressive Hipster look.

[img] [/img]

Stylish and elegant....

The Lotus carbon that Chris Boardman rode and Mike Burrows designed would make my top 10 along with the Rover Safety and The Windcheetah HPV

3 near-certs out of 10 there I think.

Plus -
Brompton
Boris Bike
Humber or similar 3-spd roadster
Moulton - not sure which, but certainly the basic design

That 7 possibles.

I'd add an original / early BMX, the Stumpjumper to represent earlier ATBs, and a simple fixie city bike.

That could be a top 10 there.

edit - the Dutch bike above would be a good inclusion, kind of covered by the Humber style bikes but maybe worth a seperate mention? It's more proven in terms of genre>social effect than the urban fixie. The fixie does have design merit by being so simple and representing a different bike style.
So maybe the list would have a few 'genres' where it's hard to single out one model, or the model listed should be the one furthest back in that part of the bike family tree.

...is not that more 'marketing' than 'design' though? I mean, us urbanites have bin cobbling simple fuss-free bikes together for decades...

exactly, the 'design' is a classic. all it's taken is a can of spray paint, and a pair of skinny jeans, and it's ready to save the world.

bikes are ace.

The Metalhead is to jump / HC HTs what the first Ritcheys were to klunkers. The first made-for-purpose version of bikes that had been adapted previously (Zaskars and 15" Stumpjumpers)
Many said the mid-80s Stumpjumper was the iconic bike of early ATBs as it was readily available and influential, so by that logic the DMR may be the bike to focus on for jump bikes, maybe not. I'm not sure if I agree with that logic, or really think the DMR would be in a top 10, just saying. The bikes I listed were just a starter that came to mind. The Metalhead is like an M1 (or Pace RC100 etc), an iconic MTB but maybe not a great bike design in the general sense.

Great pic though, takes me back as I really wanted one of those, but it was way cooler than my skills justified!

Or the Bandwagon for cheaper skates...

Still the bike I most enjoy riding.

[img] [/img]

Yeti, spooky, sinister, Frank really has made some ace bikes

good times.. when a hardcore hardtail had a ~69 deg head angle and 100mm forks )

Raleigh etc 3 speeder of 50's best uk bikes ever.
Grifter bikes became fun, I had a girls shopping bike when these arrived.
Mongoose BMX, I cant put into words how much I wanted one.
Peugout Raleigh 10 speed racers of 70's 80's what you had before we had MTB
Orange/Marins of the 90's all cool.
Specialized Sirrus decent accessible bikes.
On one inbreds/scandals must be the most popular bikes in the uk now

Thats about all I can think of off hand, not much niche on here.

martinxyz - Member
The whyte preston an all-time great bike design?

You have to be joking?
If you ride along on said bicycle approx 5mph.. and compress the suspension with body weight you can actually bring the bike to a hault.On the return.. it actually brings the bike back up to speed. Try it,then try it on any other suspension design! We found this out a few years ago and wondered what this would do on steep techy trails. I never want to find out.

Interesting I have 3 of them and have ridden 1000s of km on them and have never found this
[img][URL= http://inlinethumb20.webshots.com/2003/2955441700036898833S600x600Q85.jp g" target="_blank">http://inlinethumb20.webshots.com/2003/2955441700036898833S600x600Q85.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL][/img]
You wanted pictures I admit it,s not pretty

Raleigh Burner. Every kid I knew, wanted one.

I really like seeing the original Spesh Enduro's on the trails. I always stop to admire them.
[img] http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRWmull-lL7HtKHCeUy-pxab5ESJmAm7ZBdIphgdC81AjCqNZbDnK2W6xhPSg [/img]

Good grief, I'd never seen a Whyte Preston. It has upset me a bit.

I,m sorry wynne there is a counciling service , when you ride them you cant see how ugly they are,

[img] [/img]

I like the Whyte Preston.

All the basic suspension geometry is there with a good front end. It then all comes down to the suspension units which are easily changed.

Just spent 30 mins typing my list and reasons but the PC has just died so you'll have to make do with just the list:
1. Intense M1
2. Boardman Lotus
3. DeKerf Generation
4. Martin B-17
5. Pro-Flex 956
6. GT Zaskar
7. MountainCycle San Andreas
8. Spooky Metalhead
9. Muddy Fox Courier

Mal-ec that TRek is just wrong, It's like a bad mullet all business at one end and all party at the other. 69ers are just for the indecisive and lady boys

jameso - Member
good times.. when a hardcore hardtail had a ~69 deg head angle and 100mm forks )

slainte 😉 rob

[img] [/img]

GT Zaskar, this could still win races today.
[IMG] [/IMG]

Oh, and forget Spooky and the like. I was waaaaaaay before them in the hardcore hardtail evolution with my 'Team Moron' 😉 Trashed the downtube on my 1989 Team Marin so had a downtube from a tandem brazed in. Fitted a 'short' high rise stem when we were normally rocking the 150, and check the inboard mounting of the brake levers mimicking current trends. The thumbshifters are practically touching each other heh heh....This was upgraded to a Diamond Back Axis in the same set up but with Marzocchi Star Fork braaaah. Freeriding at Snailbeach Slagheaps, ridiculous coloured lycra jackets for goalposts...

[img] [/img]

ridiculous coloured lycra jackets for goalposts...

😯

Mummy I'm frightened... 😥

martinxyz - Member
The whyte preston an all-time great bike design?

You have to be joking?
If you ride along on said bicycle approx 5mph.. and compress the suspension with body weight you can actually bring the bike to a hault.On the return.. it actually brings the bike back up to speed. Try it,then try it on any other suspension design! We found this out a few years ago and wondered what this would do on steep techy trails. I never want to find out.

Interesting I have 3 of them and have ridden 1000s of km on them and have never found this

I'm with Ade on this one; I'm had two over the last 9 years or so and have never experienced this phenomenon either.

I know the limit of travel was limited by bar clearance on the upper front linkage; I've often wondered if this could have been improved with an 'M' shaped bar (ish) to create a 'pocket' for it to swing into.

I have to admit the pace rc100 should get in the list if only by default it did lead to several generations of quite raceworthy hardtails or maybe as with most bike related things from the retro period they were on the scene at the right time to capitalize on the fact that the technology (trends) weren't moving the goalposts every year.

The lotus I believe has only been bettered aerodynamically by two other bikes which means the concept was pretty much on the money however many years ago and in the time trial world (engine being boardman) aside is quite a feat to achieve.

I would also like to add the BCD gearbox bike to the list (one of the first) it was quite an inspiration shall we say when the design of the now defunct GT IT1 was penned (or should that be Proe'd)

The thermoplastic Gt's were also a bit ahead of their time considering that technology is now being looked at again and hasn't changed so much since then

One thing I do find interesting is that 2 bikes in the list which look completely different to the norm are by motorcycle designers
Maybe they just dont think differently but aren't defined by what the general consensus a bike should look like.

Somethings missing from the list Vitus/Alan, yes they were crap and flexy and heavy etc, but they bonded and Aluminium, then there is the TVT carbon frames.

For mtbs try the Fisher cr7 trying to make the most of different materials.

The Bontrager with its use of gussets, and attention to detail.

i agree with kingkongsfinger about the zaskar le. i have one in anodised blue, and it still looks the dogs nuts, even though its 14 years old.