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The 'perfect bike' thread made me think about great bike designs. Not bikes that you like the most personally or enjoy from a riding perspective, but groundbreaking, influential or timeless designs that were genre-builders, significant or inventive steps forward in engineering, or changed the direction of future designs.
So if there was to be a list, what would you put forward and why?
A few that spring to mind -
[b]The 1885 Rover and Swift safety bicycles[/b] - the first 'conventional' bikes.
[b]The 'unknown Klunker'[/b] - since there were many, ie a Schwinn or similar with motorbike bars and coaster brake. The spiritual birth of MTB from the late 70s.
[b]The Pace RC100[/b] - The first MTB of the 'second wave' to have so many ideas in pursuit of refining off-road riding. The headset / steerer / forks, the looks, the frame.. maybe not an all-time great but certainly a stand-out bike from a high point of MTBs boom-years.
[b]The Cervelo Soloist[/b] - great design thinking based on real research and escaping the weight-weenieness of road bikes. From the frame shape to the geometry / fit theories, Cervelo showed real design aptitude with this bike.
[b]The Colnago Master X lite[/b] - Brand heritage, design detail, different geometry to most road bikes (albeit only slightly, but enough) and stunning looks - 'the' classic road bike in my mind.
[b]The Jones Ti Spaceframe[/b] - Design for purpose against all prior thinking and fashion / dogma. A bike that has more range than, and improved ergonomics and ride feel over most bikes. Not easy to do when a design has been evolving for 100yrs plus, especially when some of the ideas in the bike are almost that old, simply applied and adjusted for a different use.
[b]The first Willits Nanoraptor-equipped '28"' bike[/b] - He was too far ahead of his time but he was open minded and eccentric enough to apply the big-wheel benefits to a particular type of bike before most.
[b]Geoff Apps's experiments in the early 80s[/b] - Aesthetics and commercial success may have side-stepped most of his designs, but like the Jones, it's an example of unique thinking and single-minded design for purpose. Perhaps just a purpose that less people related to, but still a worthy inclusion. The Highpath Cleland looks more important now than it did then, but even back then it looked interesting.
[b]The Honda RN-01[/b] - Simply for being the only motorsport-in-cycling project I can recall that worked. A stunning looking and inspiring bike.
[b]The Planet X Compo[/b] - the first experiment in long travel hardtails that showed the way forward, an oddball that had a good idea behind it when many struggled with designing for sus forks of any kind. Whether you like long forks on a hardtail or not, they've added a lot of fun to a lot of rides. Maybe not an all-time great, but worth remembering.
[b]The Moulton[/b] - A simply brilliant chassis design.. A space frame and small wheels for stiffness and efficiency, simple suspension to cope with the only real drawback of the small wheels. Different for good reason and a real design classic.
[b]The DMR Trailstar[/b] - A steel jump / play bike for ragging round the woods that changed how many of us rode in the late 90s. BMX Trails came to meet MTB trails head-on. Simple, strong and cheap, and highly influential I think.
Of all the bikes listed above, I think maybe only 2 or 3 would make a credible all-time greats list. Others are just examples of what counts as a great bike to me.
Interested in what else gets posted up..
San Andreas Full bouncer...can't recall the name of it but it was pretty ground breaking a the time
Original Marin Mount Vision - pretty ground breaking when it first came out as it made full bounce 'affordable' to the masses and also offered it to every kind of rider not just for the downhillers.
Moulton - yes, I agree
Pace - yes, I agree
The original Specialized Stumpjumper (and probably from the same 'mould' - the original Muddy Fox Courier)
Scott Genius and Ransom (new to the scene but pretty ground breaking offering so much travel and variety in such a light package - but not cheap!)
dmr trailstar all the way, perfection
demo9
+1 Mountain Cycles San Andreas, Mount Vision and to a point, the mid-80s Stumpjumper too.
San Andreas Full bouncer
That'll be Mountain Cycle's San Andreas
didn't Kona start the long top tube\short stem idea?
Chopper - useless as a bike. But I can't remember a bike before or since that [i]every[/i] kid in the land wanted...
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dmr trailstar all the way, perfection
+1 🙂
Why the Demo9 Jedi? (I think it's and interesting application of the 4-bar Horst design and I love the HR Giger looks of the all-black version.)
I'd have put the spooky metalhead instead of the DMR and maybe a proflex in there as well as they were the first light weight racey full boinger
agree with geoff apps although he always said his bikes were for all terrain rather than mountain bikes as he was from a more trialsy background. If memory serves me didn't his bikes have massively high bb's?
not sure about jones either, different but not really top 10
Get that chopper of the thread quick!! : ) awful in every way.
The DMR Trailstar - A steel jump / play bike for ragging round the woods that changed how many of us rode in the late 90s. BMX Trails came to meet MTB trails head-on. Simple, strong and cheap, and highly influential I think.
Awesome shout.
Muddy Fox Courier, i remember loads of them around Edinburgh as well as Stumpjumpers, i ride an early courier i got cheap this year and its still ace! 🙂
Geoff Apps's experiments in the early 80s - Aesthetics and commercial success may have side-stepped most of his designs, but like the Jones, it's an example of unique thinking and single-minded design for purpose. Perhaps just a purpose that less people related to, but still a worthy inclusion. The Highpath Cleland looks more important now than it did then, but even back then it looked interesting.
Going riding with him in a couple of weeks and looking forward to meeting him and riding his Aventura, a legend and fore father of our pastime, i will do a blog post and link it on STW
I will have to say whyte Preston
curly hetchin
Pedersen
I'd have put the spooky metalhead instead of the DMR
Maybe, there were a few bikes around that time that were similar. The spooky was too expensive though so never really "took off"
The DMR was perfect, plus it was steel and cheap.
the cold forging, the lower c of g etcc.. great bike
Have to agree 100% on the Moulton. A wonderful concept, great design, so often misunderstood.
I'd also like to chip in with the Mountain Cycle San Andreas and the Marin Mount Vision. Both seemed to move the game on a bit I think.
awful in every way.
Completely agree!!!
The Planet X Compo - the first experiment in long travel hardtails that showed the way forward, an oddball that had a good idea behind it when many struggled with designing for sus forks of any kind. Whether you like long forks on a hardtail or not, they've added a lot of fun to a lot of rides. Maybe not an all-time great, but worth remembering.
thanks. But I basically copied Russell Burton's early Cove Stiffee import and made it more rad.
I think you missed the Planet X Jack Flash, which was the first mass production Taiwanese Dirt Jump frame, which was evolved from the Spooky Metalhead (though tweaked by the Tallifeur brothers).
GT LTS
Kona Cindercone, original steel ones excellent trailbikes.
Tazzy, the Metalhead was in mind, but the DMR was the one that everyone had, although the Metalhead was first I think? Maybe that trumps the DMR then.
I think Geoff apps made bikes that inspired due to how he customised and refined the bikes, rather than the bikes themselves or how they rode.
The Jones spaceframe's a class design in my book, it'd make a final 10 due to being simply a very good [i]bike[/i], for many uses, not just a good MTB.
Proflex, agreed - Bob Girvin got the now-classic single pivot point figured out before anyone else afaik.
But I basically copied Russell Burton's early Cove Stiffee import and made it more rad
I remember reading about the bike and seeing a very steep seat angle / short top tube on a 110mm Bomber-equipped easton RAD-esque alu frame - assumed the idea was the 'weight forward for long fork' thing and that's where I saw it first.
If so, I'll continue to blame you for all that )
Jameso metalhead was the first but the DMR was the plebeians choice
Not a single BMX?
I's go for a GT Pro Performer, or a Haro, one of if not the first freestyle bmx frames. And say something early like a Mongoose I, bringing all the elements together to make a quality 20 inch bmx affordable to the masses, to do what kids were already doing on other bikes. Or the Grifter, in a uk centric way, for sort of bringing "tough" off road style bikes to kids before BMX properly hit.
The Raleigh Arena - no particular reason, except every teenager in the 70's wanted one, and so introduced even non cyclists, to a smart looking bike.
The early Marin full sus frame - Pine FRS with Manitou rear seat stays. When Manitou were good!
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Wacky, but inspired.
By the way, this thread, although still young, makes such a nice change from all the spoilt whingy cockbaggery about substandard doilies in trail centre cafes or 'what butler' threads.
Sometimes easy to forget there are other bikers on here.
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Klein Adroit with fuselage stem/bars.
Not the best image but was just an out and out fast race bike, could never go fast enough to justify owning mine though.
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There is a local girl who I often see on an old blue klein with a child seat on the back very cool bike
I'd add one of Frank the welders sinister bikes creations like the splinter mx, the first adjustable ride height, head angle, seat angle hardcore bike with simple redneck engineering
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and foes for his monster shocks that hoover small cars without any fuss
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changed my mind about jeff, as a complete design package, frames fork, bars it works fantastically
"Not a single BMX?"
Only as my list was a starter for 10 minutes of posting, I'd be there all night writing a post if I listed everything I could think of ) Plus I know little about BMX, had 3 and that's enough to know I can't ride them well!
I always wanted a Curtis freestyler BITD.
BMXs definately deserve a spot for getting so many kids into bikes.
Maybe the 'original' Doug Bradbury Manitou version of that Marin (but they were awful tbh) 😉
Having watched Klunkerz earlier this year, I'd have to nominate Charlie Cunningham's early mountain bikes.
Seems he quietly came up with loads of the features that ended up on mass market MTBs for years after.
what about that brooklyn machine works bike that josh "crazy-man" bender jumped 50 ft drops on :-)EDIT also the original gt zaskar (was the first mtb to be successful at cross country/downhill and trials (obviously a certain mr rey had something to do with it also 😉
Realman, I think something like that -or that bike itself- is a very good call. Possibly changed cycling in the UK more than any other individual bike in recent years? And it's not a bad ride either for what it is, I'd say from a brief semi-drunken spin that it was a good design.
I will have to say whyte Preston
biased
compositepro - Member
I will have to say whyte Preston
biased
POSTED 27 SECONDS AGO # REPORT-POST
You are right but I still think it's a great concept shame it wasn't further developed , be great in carbon
Ooh dunno, I mean a lot of the bikes mentioned on here are simply tweaks of existing designs, but I'd go for stuff such as the Grifter, which preceded BMX here in the UK, early MTBs like the original Spesh Stumpy, Geoff Apps' designs, Sarcin Conkwest, Muddy Fox Courier etc which were the first 'all terrain bikes' we saw here, later to be followed by stuffs like the Orange Clockwork and that.
Then you've got yer big fat aluminium stuffs from Cannondale and Klein, which redefined how a mountain bike should look.
Full suss? Well, There was stuff like the Gary Fisher RS-1, Cannondale EST, GT LTS/RTS, then yer amp Research designs, followed by the Spesh FS and Trek's Y-frame designs. The San Andreas and Sintessi Bazooka were the hardcore downhill machines. and of course Jon Whyte's Marin FS bikes.
Difficult, in't it? I mean, yer jumpy types would say something like a Spooky Metalhead, but that was a very expensive 'niche' machine, and I think really it's the more widely available bikes which have had greater influence on what people buy really. How many people owned a Spooky, compared to say a Spesh Hardrock?
And what about the influence of stuff like Mert Lawwill's Yeti FS bikes, what were used for downhill speed record attempts?
The answer's not always what people might think it to be. If someone talks about a 'great' bike design, I'm inclined to think of something that actually had an impact on the way more people ride and use bikes. See RealBoy's perfect example of such, above....
I will have to say whyte Preston
curly hetchin
Pedersen
I'd agree with all of those. The Pederson is a wonderful bike to ride. The Hetchins is a classic. The PRST1 and Mt Vision were designs to be proud of too.
I was looking up some stuff about FW Evans' bikes a while ago, he was using oval tubes for the same reasons as the Baines Flying Gate and the curly Hetchins designs at that time, but it had a simpler look that didn't appeal as much then.
Intense M1?...the best downhill bike of its generation.....by a country mile.
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what about that brooklyn machine works bike that josh "crazy-man" bender jumped 50 ft drops on :-)EDIT also the original gt zaskar (was the first mtb to be successful at cross country/downhill and trials (obviously a certain mr rey had something to do wit
Josh Bender used a Karpiel
The Zaskar is a classic though.
small (14 & 16") Zaskars were commonly built as jump bikes before either came along and quite a few cheap little jump frames were in production by the time DMR and Spooky launched theirs.Maybe, there were a few bikes around that time that were similar. The spooky was too expensive though so never really "took off"The DMR was perfect, plus it was steel and cheap.
trailstars always felt too long for me back then.
Metalheads felt quite a bit shorter.
ah apologies 😳
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and Vouilloz won a WC DH on a Zaskar
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Apologies to their new owners (I only kept tiny pics 😕 ) but the Intense Tazer has to be right up there - awesome little bike and a looker to boot 8)
I would stick the Cove Stiffee, some Turner or other from days of old, GT Zaskar and the Kona Cindercone to the list!
small (14 & 16") Zaskars were commonly built as jump bikes before either came along and quite a few cheap little jump frames were in production by the time DMR and Spooky launched theirs.
I was later into the jump bikes thing then. We sold Jack Flashes, FAB's and DS-1s in the shop around then but the Trailstar is what I remember most of us built up first.
I guess my OP was thinking mostly about design roots. The bikes of of my 'great bike design' interest are ones intended to be at the design stage, rather than the adapted by user customisation later on. The end result of either isn't worth any more or less than the other though, one man's bodge-bike is another man's inspiration.
Elfin's point is right too, is design worth anything if the affect on society is little or none? that's why I think the genre-building effect of a bike is so important. I like design for its own sake but I love bike design for its potential to change lives, so the Boris bike and the Kona Ute and Africa bikes count for a lot. And in a small way, the Trailstar or other little jump HT with 100m forks that ripped back then.
My top 10. In no particular order.
GT Zaskar
Mountain Cycle San Andreas
Marin Mt Vision (single pivot one)
Giant ATX-1
OnOne Inbred
GT RTS
Intense M1
Pace RC100
Klien Atitude
Proflex 856
Not all revolutionary (probably only the San Andreas and maybe RTS could be said to be) but all classics in one way or another.
amazing how much things have moved on though innit, looking at that intense m1 above, it looks positively weedy compared to a modern bike.
and the raleigh activator, how big are those chainrings??
All of these moved cycling in new directions (or tried!)
Rover safety bicycle
Dursley Pedersen (STILL very lightweight bikes)
Chopper (everyone wanted one and that's good enough for me)
Schwin Sting Ray (started BMX)
Moulton
Brompton (almost unchanged)
Trek OCLV (first decent carbon road bike)
Boardman Lotus (realisation that aerodynamics matters)
Original Breezer
Something full suspension (Maybe)
Chopper (everyone wanted one and that's good enough for me)
Ok, on that point it counts, the Chopper's back in favour..
Brompton's a good call.
Was the Brompton or the Bickerton designed first?
Of the more memorable/influential bikes I have owned I give you
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& who could forget the one STW called pointless for its long travel?
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Cheers.
Boardman Lotus (realisation that aerodynamics matters)
and Mike Burrow's TCR, plus his Ratcatcher or some other recumbent - maybe. Recumbent's never seem to be popular, not bikes I have any experience with. Look fun tho.
The Kona Stinky.
Affordable DH / FR for the masses. Rode many, loved them all. Definitely a future project.
Cannondale Super V was an awesome looking design, I can't coment on the ride as I never rode one. I did however ride an AMP research B4(?)
As flexy as heck but it was truely groundbreaking, (I think) Horst Leitner worked for them and in partnership with Specialized developed the four bar Horst link.
Wiki says Bickerton produced from 1971 so it came first I think.
Does it matter which came first? The Brompton is the better design and properly started today's "integrated transport" ball rolling (you rarely saw people taking Bickertons, Moultons or any other generic folding shopper on the bus / train as part of their daily commute).
What about a Royal Mail post bike? (but which one?) Or the butcher's delivery bike?
I wouldn't include the Zaskar. It was no better or different than many other bikes (in terms of geo, weight, handling etc), wasn't the first to use aluminium, saddled with a lump of u-brake and had slightly pointless triple triangle design.
Maybe Kestrel or Trimble as first proper carbon mtbs?
Bickerton was first, by a couple of years. Lighter than the Brompton, a lot of custom parts, but very flexy. There is a reason why we now all ride Bromptons.
EDIT: I had originally listed the original recumbent that set the hour record in about 1930. Before they were promptly banned!
Which of the Bickerton and the Brompton was first doesn't matter really, just curious, saw a Bickerton in town the other day. The Brompton should be a short-lister from both design and effect.
What about a Royal Mail post bike? (but which one?) Or the butcher's delivery bike?
Pashley in general could make a good list, they've made a lot of interesting bikes like that. More about great uses of many bikes than particular great designs of bike?
Maybe Kestrel or Trimble as first proper carbon mtbs?
I remember the CMS e-stay MTB.. a Kestrel could be up there, early carbon was an important step.
graftek were the first to build a frame with carbon
Kestrel or Aegis could be the first production monocoque cant remember which came first .It was chicken or egg
you rarely saw people taking Bickertons, [b]Moultons[/b] or any other generic folding shopper on the bus / train as part of their daily commute
Like i said...
...Moulton. A wonderful concept, great design, [b]so often misunderstood.[/b]
Anyway, What about the Outland bike that was developed into the VPP by Intense and Santa Cruz? In the world of MTB suspension at least that was a bit of a game changer...
What about the Outland bike that was developed into the VPP by Intense and Santa Cruz? In the world of MTB suspension at least that was a bit of a game changer...
The outland patent was developed by Intense and SC. Not really the bike.
Surprised...two pages and no mention of Kona.
Their frames from the early 90's set te style for frames to this day...ok front suspension has changed them too, but the idea of a small trialngle frame with sloping toptube and tight rear triangle was the bike I alway wanted.
Surprised...two pages and no mention of Kona
A few mentions, including mine above.. 8)
Kona and Joe Murray certainly deserve credit for that frame style. I think Paul Brodie's bikes started the trend.
Oops...should have read the thread more carefully, and typed more carefully too!
No Kona pics though....nice Explosif?
CHB +1
Kona explosif should be on the list, even better than the Cinder Cone.
and the Raleigh Strika (which looks surprisingly similar, small triangles/ sloping top tube) because its bikes that make kids smile that starts it all.
Advantages of running a bike shop, I can play this game for real - wait long enough and pretty much anything gets traded in 🙂 (I don't have all of these, by the way)
Windcheetah - they're delicate, tend to roll over in corners, use funny single-sided wheels, and are hideously expensive if you can even find one in your size, but for sheer silly-big-grin entertainment nothing beats taking a Speedy down some twisty road.
Hetchins - a daft design that doesn't really absorb shock at all, and they're always hideously overpriced, but just gorgeous.
Kona Cindercone circa 1995, or similar - just a simple MTB that is pretty much perfect to ride.
Moulton Twin Pylon
A Starley Ordinary (Penny Farthing) - if it wasn't for this, we wouldn't have good spoked wheels, seamless tubing, or bearings.
A 3-speed Humber Roadster - people rode around the world on these things, many decades before the MTB was invented. Mine is 98 years old, almost original, and still works as well as the day it left the factory.
What about the Amp Research?
Always fancied one of them BITD.
The 1988 Mountain Cycle was pretty important.. certainly pretty darn influential.
Offroad ProFlex , full sus that looked great , worked and wasn't heavy .
got to throw the cove hummer in there too 🙂
I'd ignore all the other types of bikes otherwise we'll be talking about Sunbeams and Moultons.
Influential mountain bikes
1 70s Clunker
2 80s Stumpjumper - mtb for the masses
3 Muddyfox Courier Comp - UK mtb for the masses
4 Any early 90s bike with a fluro tasteless paint job - Klein Marin Konas etc - quality mtbs
5 Mountain Cycle San Andreas - fs albeit very crude, disc brakes and a host of other innovative features
6 Cannondale Killer V - suspension that worked (ish)
7 Cove Stiffee - big hitting hardtail that could take big forks
8 Marin Attack Trail - trail friendly suspension
9 Orange 5 - classic single pivot
10 Specialized 4 bar bikes
I'm pleased to have owned some of these and if nothing else they had a big influence on me.
got to throw the cove hummer in there too
Why? It's not a particularly outstanding [i]design[/i], is it?
This is about outstanding bike designs, not just 'bikes what you like'. In an overall more objective assessment of bicycle design, most of the ones mentioned here woon't get a look in tbh.
As much as I hate the nasty twitchy little things,the Brompton has to be in with a shout, I agree.
I ought to love them really, them being from London an' all.
Maybe one day, I will....
"The DMR Trailstar - A steel jump / play bike for ragging round the woods that changed how many of us rode in the late 90s. BMX Trails came to meet MTB trails head-on. Simple, strong and cheap, and highly influential I think."
not forgetting a nice little Rhythm 24!
Aye, Brodie pre-dated Kona with that characteristic style of frame. Paul Brodie is running frame building courses at the moment, and if I had $2500 burning a hole in my pocket, I'd love to take it.
Santa Superlight?
The whyte preston an all-time great bike design?
You have to be joking?
If you ride along on said bicycle approx 5mph.. and compress the suspension with body weight you can actually bring the bike to a hault.On the return.. it actually brings the bike back up to speed. Try it,then try it on any other suspension design! We found this out a few years ago and wondered what this would do on steep techy trails. I never want to find out.
"The Honda RN-01 - Simply for being the only motorsport-in-cycling project I can recall that worked. A stunning looking and inspiring bike."
I would far rather put mert lawwill on the list before honda.
And let's not forget the antithesis of great bike design - the UCI, committed to keeping cycle design in the 1890s.
After the great pioneers, the game changers were the Moulton, the 26" mountainbike (too many to pick one) , and for bringing a new game into cycling, the Surly Pugsley.
And what's been lost? Bikes like the Sunbeam, Humber, and Raleigh Superbe which continue to run faultlessly in all weather over periods of 50 + years with minimal maintenance.
Coming back? Hub gears and hopefully hub brakes.