[Closed] "Against some drivers belief's"

They need re-education to change their beliefs then. Maybe by removing their vehicles and making them cycle.

Unintended but not unexpected.

Round here, and I suspect everywhere, the new default position is still to overtake on a blind bend, give me enough room but force the oncoming traffic to a halt.

An Australian study

Enough said really...

In 2021 anti-cycling rhetoric is about the closest thing we have to legalised discrimination. You can write all manner of inflammatory rhetoric, full of factual inaccuracies and have it published by the mainstream media. You can label an entire group of people, a lot of them doing completely different things as "they cyclists".

So its not really surprising that actually treating cyclist with respect goes "against some drivers beliefs" They have been spoon fed those "beliefs" for decades.

Definitely worse around here than pre-Covid. Went for a road ride on Wednesday evening. Lots of close passes. One guy beeping us because he had to slow down for 10 seconds and another one overtook me whilst I was in a right turn box i.e. he went on the wrong side of the road when he could have just passed on the left as there was a proper turn right box. Not sure if it is frustration with life over the past few months or it has just got busier again quite quickly. Luckily about a mile from home its quiet back roads where you hardly ever see a car.

TO be honest I am not sure it is ever going to change. I am work from home most of the time now but I gave up with commuting - it just isnt worth the aggro or stress. I might do it occasionally but thats about it.

I follow DC Rainmaker on insta and he lives in Holland (not sure which city/town) and the infrastructure is amazing. I am always jealous. I would love to be able to take my son out cycling more but the reality is other than the cycle path around our estate (which he is super bored of after the past year) we have to go in the car to get somewhere safe!

Round here, and I suspect everywhere, the new default position is still to overtake on a blind bend, give me enough room but force the oncoming traffic to a halt.

Yep, crazy round here as well.

I put together a blog type post about the unconscious bias cyclists face, talking about the lack of understanding, default discrimination, threats, intimidation and actual violence I've experienced, the punchline being the reveal that it's being a cyclist.

Then BLM happened and I got a proper sense of perspective. But I'll dig it out one day. Might be an interesting one for a work presentation one day.

What the driver believes is of no interest to the relevant applicable traffic laws and those charged with upholding and enforcing it.

We've an admin on our local residents' FB group who is vehemently anti-cyclist - she "hates" them in fact. She is unable to tell the difference between someone who happens to be a cyclist and all cyclists. Apparently a cyclist once remonstrated with her in the local woods and frightened her dog, so we're all carrying the can for it years after the event.

I worry that she's going to kill someone one day.

Then BLM happened and I got a proper sense of perspective. But I’ll dig it out one day. Might be an interesting one for a work presentation one day.

Yeah it does need to be kept in perspective. BLM highlighted the actual discrimination that many people still face.

But while other discrimination is generally frowned upon - yes it absolutely still exists and is promoted in dark corners of the internet and in some parts of the world - having a go at "cyclists" is still fair game.

If I had pick one idea that's responsible I think, in the UK at least, its tied to class. How else do you explain how horses are treated on the road versus how cyclists are treated.

against some drivers beliefs

To be fair, anything on a road that does not directly benefit them at that moment in time is an affront to their beliefs.
Being told to obey a rule, well that's both an affront to their beliefs AND a direct slight on their driving ability!

I committed a terrible crime the other day and affronted a motorist (who was on foot).

I was cycling in the cycle lane and the end of the next section was blocked by a road sweeping thing. I rode my bike down the road instead and when a man on foot step out in the road in front of me I stopped and balance my bike while he crossed in front of me. I then got ranted at for not using the bike lane we can't win.

Remember bike were on the road before cars.

"If I had pick one idea that’s responsible I think, in the UK at least, its tied to class. How else do you explain how horses are treated on the road versus how cyclists are treated."

I agree because the perception is bike=less affluent even though most bike riders are adult male and therefore the same socioeconomic bracket as the majority of drivers. chiefly because the lack of infra means that children and the elderly are forced off, and the lowest paid live in housing that has no storage for bikes and the cops don't have the resources to prevent theft.
Although I would bet that the horse community would tell you that the bell3nds behind the wheel are just as ignorant of horses as people on bikes

The anti-cyclist venom on facebook whenever there is a discussion about road users is unbelievable. However I always think it says more about the level of ignorance and bigotry around us than cyclists.

It can be quite fun to reply to some of the anti people with "your comment says more about you than anyone/thing else - you really are not a nice person". Don't think it will ever change anything but it might get people to think about their own behaviour rather than blaming everyone else (cylists).

“If I had pick one idea that’s responsible I think, in the UK at least, its tied to class. How else do you explain how horses are treated on the road versus how cyclists are treated.”

Are they treated better? also you dont see many horse in town or city centres so must of joe public may not have come across a horse on the road.

If I had pick one idea that’s responsible I think, in the UK at least, its tied to class. How else do you explain how horses are treated on the road versus how cyclists are treated.

It does seem strange although not sure because of class. A lot more people will slow down to 10mph to pass a horse rider, give them loads of room etc,.
Guessing that is because they don't want the horse to freak out and bring the rider down yet they don't seem to care about going past a cyclist at full speed and too close.
Maybe they just don't see the problem with it, it is not as though the bike is going to get scared and throw the cyclist off?
Maybe they don't know how it feels as a cyclist to be close passed?
Maybe they don't think they will actually hit the cyclist?
Maybe they simply don't give a shit?

Anecdotal evidence from my sister (used to ride her bike everywhere as didn't drive, yet never considered herself a "cyclist") was that she experienced far fewer close passes when she didn't wear a helmet. As soon as she started wearing one, drivers passed a lot closer and faster.

Horses are very much an oddity around most parts - they tend not to sit 2 abreast at 15-20mph preventing people overtaking, and also they are only on the roads in certain rural parts (not in towns etc or on A roads). Also they weigh 0.5 tonnes and will kill you if you crash into one.

I think the ignorance of motorists is a key problem - hence it is good to see the 1.5m guidance being dished out, but there are a small number of motorists who resent this as they are adamant we shouldn't be on the roads.

Anecdotal evidence from my sister (used to ride her bike everywhere as didn’t drive, yet never considered herself a “cyclist”) was that she experienced far fewer close passes when she didn’t wear a helmet.

There was some famous research along those lines a few years back iirc?

The thing is, it's not the enforcement that's causing it, it's the years of unsafe driving that's causing it, and being temporarily inconvenienced just brings it to a head. So it's not a problem you can fix by just not doing the "close pass" stuff, it's a problem you fix by keeping doing that, and other things, and reeducating drivers, and training new drivers properly.

Not easy at all.

What always drives me crazy here is, police do an "operation close pass" or similar, their facebook- the actual police facebook- is always absolutely full of drivers saying "if a cyclist's in the middle of the road and I hit them it's their fault" or whatever, with no apparent followup. One time there was a HGV driver- and he posted his own name, his employer's name, and a picture of himself in the cab- saying that if he can't see a cyclist it's not his fault if he hits them, and he wouldn't be surprised if he's knocked off a few and doesn't even know- but that's not his problem, they shouldn't be on the road.

What do the police do? Not even a response on FB.That last one should have had a traffic car at his front door.

I agree because the perception is bike=less affluent even though most bike riders are adult male and therefore the same socioeconomic bracket as the majority of drivers.

It's more than that IMO. I will occasionally see some old guy wearing tatty clothes on his way to work. But the overwhelming majority of people on bikes I see are fluent upper-middle class types that are either choosing to ride to work, or choosing to ride recreationally because fun/fitness/environmental concerns/it's quicker (delete as appropriate).

Can anyone on here put their hand up to say they ride because they can't afford a car?

Certainly not me. Which is why I feel slightly uneasy with the whole narrative of "Boohoo, we're discriminated against in plain sight." Whilst there's clearly some truth there, in so many other aspects of my life I'm very fortunate so I don't feel I can claim to be a downtrodden member of society.

The horse thing is curious though. Yesterday, I got stuck behind someone for half a mile who wouldn't go around two horses on a double track lane. The horse drivers didn't pull over either. I can't imagine a driver giving a cyclist that much respect. Perhaps horse encounters are infrequent enough to be a novelty for the motorist?

Horses [...] tend not to sit 2 abreast at 15-20mph

No, these ones were 2 abreast chatting whilst going at about 4 mph.

I reckon people give horses a wide berth as they're concerned their cars will get damaged if the horse bolts.  Bloke on bike doesn't do much damage so crack on.

was that she experienced far fewer close passes when she didn’t wear a helmet.

I have seen this in action having been close passed (no oncoming traffic) then watched the driver pass the woman with skirt on and no helmet in the other lane. (All 4 wheels across the white line)

I'm 45, ive cycled all the way though. Racing through the 90's up until recently.
Ive now put the bike away and havent cycled since october. I just dont feel safe on the roads and the trails around me are packed with new dog walkers and people who get aggresive at me for going too fast.

Do remember that through the '80s or 90's there was also a good few 'give horses room' and 'think (motor) bike' campaigns running.

I don't think I have seen a well-funded, national 'oi, be nice to cyclists' campaign?

It’s not only cyclists - a couple of weeks ago my wife and I, pushing our 5 month old grandson in his pram, dared to walk about 200 metres along a country road (it was unavoidable, because of where we were going to).
We got some shitty looks from a few drivers and one of them, because he actually had to stop to let a car coming the other way through, wound his window down and shouted “Bloody idiots, get off the road”.

As I said, this was a country road - not the M1. To be honest, I was too gobsmacked to be able to come up with a reply...

My hypothesis is rooted in the idea that people don’t like to think and they don’t like to have their beliefs challenged, and it is this.

The horse thing boils down to two pretty simple considerations:

1. People have an instinctive grasp of “obnoxious physics”. Horses are big. A horse in your windscreen at speed will easily kill you. Humans and bicycles mostly just bounce off.

2. People believe animals are dumb and humans are smart. So they anticipate a horse being unpredictable, but expect humans to always plot a perfectly true path.

So people are cautious around the big, tall, heavy, crazy thing; but they expect to be able to brush past the smaller, seemingly predictable thing with no issue.

For many people, when that last expectation is challenged, cognitive dissonance flares up like a wildfire and they respond by simply getting angry.

Are they treated better? also you dont see many horse in town or city centres so must of joe public may not have come across a horse on the road.

Generally, yes, horses / horse riders are treated far better.

The main road between Hathersage and Hope in the Peak District - A road, wide, good sightlines, 50mph limit and a useless painted cycle lane on each side that's about 1 and a tiny bit bikes width. Ride down there 2 abreast (it's a very popular roadie route) and, in spite of the fact that there's generally enough space to overtake safely, you'll get all sorts of abuse to use / stay in the cycle lane.

Then I saw a pair of horses being ridden down it side by side. A queue of respectful traffic behind, each driver pulled out wide and safe and overtook carefully, no revving engines.

Driving the works van once, I was a car or two behind a woman who bullied her way past a cyclist, trying to push through, being prevented by oncoming traffic and so on until eventually she squeezed past at far less than 1.5m passing distance. I caught her up again 2 mins later as she drove along at 5mph behind a horse being ridden along the road before she eventually pulled out, crossed right into the other lane and overtook safely and quietly.

It's like the two are completely separate, the idea of thinking "hmm, cyclist is kind of like a horse, let's use the same caution" is a totally alien concept.

Do remember that through the ’80s or 90’s there was also a good few ‘give horses room’ and ‘think (motor) bike’ campaigns running.

I don’t think I have seen a well-funded, national ‘oi, be nice to cyclists’ campaign?

Cycling Scotland ran a campaign a few years ago. See Cyclist, Think Horse

The ASA banned it because it showed the cyclist not in a helmet and too far from the kerb.

I just dont feel safe on the roads and the trails are packed with people who get aggresive at me for going too fast.

Is it possible that you’re doing unto others on the trails what others do unto you on the roads?

was that she experienced far fewer close passes when she didn’t wear a helmet.

I had better not start wearing a helmet then as it is bad enough when I don't. I do look like a cyclist though as I wear lycra so maybe that matters more than a helmet?

The best solution I have found to get drivers to give me room is to swerve around a bit. They are much more cautious when overtaking then (not in towns, on country roads!)

The ASA banned it because it showed the cyclist not in a helmet and too far from the kerb.

Indeed, though they did at least retract their decision. I forget where it all ended up after that, though. (Other than the Niceway Code finally and deservedly being shot in the head and pushed into an old quarry.)

https://beyondthekerb.org.uk/the-killing-of-the-horse/

Cycling Scotland ran a campaign a few years ago. See Cyclist, Think Horse

Ah yes, the utterly dreadful "Nice Way Code" campaign. To be fair, that advert was about the one good thing they did and ASA subsequently withdrew its adjudication but the rest of the campaign was the standard hotch-potch built on the idea that if people on bikes avoid certain transgressions (or as per this thread, avoid drivers believing that the cyclist is committing a transgression), drivers will be more likely to drive in a manner that affords them an acceptable degree of safety.

The sort of pervasive "shared respect" bollocks that routinely appears in driver / cyclist campaigns.

But the overwhelming majority of people on bikes I see are fluent upper-middle class types that are either choosing to ride to work, or choosing to ride recreationally because fun/fitness/environmental concerns/it’s quicker (delete as appropriate).

I think that will depend where you live. Where I am there is a fairly significant number of people cycling to work on the industrial estate/greenhouses who I doubt fall into that category.
Weekends and further in the countryside it is a somewhat different story though.

What do the police do? Not even a response on FB.

Being a bellend on social media should be an automatic 3 points and £100 fine. Some would be at 12 points in no time.

Is it possible that you’re doing unto others on the trails what others do unto you on the roads?

Nicely phrased. And don't get me started on cyclists who close pass horses 🤦‍♂️

Double post

I do look like a cyclist though as I wear lycra

There's the problem, if you're wearing the uniform the driver assumes that you are competent and can deal with someone passing close at high speed!

We on the other hand know that assumption is the mother of all **** ups!

What I’m getting from this is, if I dress as a horse whilst out on the bike it will cause motorists to treat me with care or be so confused they stop, pullover and have a good cry,