[Closed] Afan on a hardtail...

What element of it would be stupid, the amount of riding? that's more than I can do, but you know what you can do.

The fearsome Afan on a HT or even a Carbon Spark? You'll be fine mate. The core of the trails dates back to when most people were on rigids, there's a few bike parky bits, yeah more than a few rocks but you won't hurt a Carbon bike or die because you're not packing suspension both ends.

The Penhydd climb is boring AF and the idea of riding it over and over coming back down it making me yawn already, if you want the climb without the rocky descent, ride Blue Scar a few more times, it has most of the same climb and a very easy (unless you're pinned) descent, in fact it one of the best descents in Afan, well if you like high speed, smooth and 'fake' as you like.

No the question is, is it mad to do it on a hardtail?

Its a can of worms - doing it on the race bike is a more realistic scenario and more comfortable, but the HT is LLS yet heaver / demand more skill.

Doesn't the Blue Scar climb stop before the Penhydd climb?  I can see the sense in riding Blue Scar x 5 but its the climbing I really need.

I rode W2 a few weeks back on my Cotic Solaris and it was fine. I would go as far as to say it was more fun because it was a bit more challenging.

No the question is, is it mad to do it on a hardtail?

Certainly not from an 'underbiked' point a view. Which is harder/faster FS/HT I'm not sure, had my arse handed to me by a HT rider a few weeks ago on one of the faster (but smoother) bits of Cwmcarn.

Blue / Penhydd share the same climb for about 2/3rd of it, then Penhydd splits off and there's some more climbing, but it's all fire road, better to take the BS descent and climb again. It's not overly steep, completely non-technical and boring.

The core of the trails dates back to when most people were on rigids,

Last time I rode it on a hardtail I hated it. It's not that it's big or technical, just that it's heavily armoured and over time the smaller stuff has got washed off the trails. Completely doable on a hardtail, just tiring even on the flat bits.

The hardtail will demand more skill at riding a hardtail. The full sus will let you go quicker. It's not any easier.

You could strap part of an old tyre to the downtube If you are worried about rock strikes.

Can carbon frames be KO'd by a rock strike?

It’s not any easier.

I think thats the answer I was looking for.

You could strap part of an old tyre to the downtube

Good tip, thanks.

And I know someone is about to post the Santa Cruz video,  I've seen it thanks 😀

Was there on this a month or so ago was absolutely fine (well, apart from the weather!)
https://flic.kr/p/2hLRs3e

About 15 years ago when there were only three trails at Afan from memory, I rode all 3 in one day on a fully rigid On One Inbred. Can't see what the issue is with riding any hardtail there myself

You're training to race the Spark, I presume. Take the Spark.

No the question is, is it mad to do it on a hardtail?

You wot? What do you think people used to do back in the day on fully rigid 26ers with 1.9" tyres? Why would they even make hardtails if you couldn't ride them at a basic vanilla trail centre?

If you'd asked if you could do it on a gravel bike I'd still say yes and call you a big jessie 🙂

Not mad.. but mad when you have an FS yes... It's so so so much more fun on a FS..

I don't really get the HT being more of a challenge and therefore 'better'

You'll be fine! Go enjoy it!

DrP

You can train on a bike that isn't your race bike. I've done a few training rides on my big 160mm Transition Patrol (in fact, almost any solo ride on it I treat as a training ride). You'll be able to achieve a similar work out on the climbs and I suspect it'll be more enjoyable on the descents.

Cwmcarn is really well suited to a race bike though, it's good fun.

I always do it on a hard tail.
With small wheels!
I would do penhydd/blue on the Friday... side winder is a personal fave.👍

I don’t really get the HT being more of a challenge and therefore ‘better’

it comes with the "train hard race easy*" thing.  Heavier, tricker to manage bike will enhance my strength & skills more.   Although, using the race bike brings specificity.  Thinking about it this will be January with 3 months to go before my first event, with 3 Gorricks in between to be specific on, so the fun-er Clockwork it is.

*Although racing is never easy of course.

Take two bikes.

When I started riding MTB in 2012 my first bike was a Kona hardtail with 100mm cheap-as-chips Dart forks (coil not air). I rode that bike around Cwmcarn loads (including the DH track) and a couple times around Afan. To be honest it beat the sh*t out of me and it wasn't long before I replaced it with a FS. BUT, it was doable and that bike/fork combo was possibly the worst thing to ride there anyway. So anything a bit more modern with nice long plush air forks will be fine. As to the weight issue, train heavy-race light.

For me it doesn't come down to whether it's harder or more fun.

The difference is in the levels and nature of the fatigue.

I rode W2 at pace on a HT a few years back, it was exhausting, my whole body knew all about it.

I have ridden it at pace many times on a FS, then it is straight up riding effort not the overall body exhaustion that I got on the HT.

That was a 26'' wheeled Evil Sov with Hammerschmit and 36s mind.... ****ing love that thing.

I suspect my Transmitter would be somewhat less knackering.

Why don't you just do some back to back W2 laps on both and put the HT v FS debate to bed for good....

I rode W2 at pace on a HT a few years back, it was exhausting, my whole body knew all about it.

Well, it’s a workout I want, not an easy ride.   Can’t be arsed taking two bikes.

Heavier, tricker to manage bike will enhance my strength & skills more

Will it? Or will it just make a great day out a bit crap?

I was there in June for 3 days on my scale. It’s fine, I’m not anywhere near as fit as I was but plenty of prs up and down, mostly top 5% on segments. Joyrider, one of my favourites looks like I’m 56/8732, on said hardtail.

My wrists were shot by the final descent on blade, and I was starting to have trouble braking. My forks are in desperate need of a service too so that didn’t help

Though I now have a new spark, so next time I’ll be taking that because it should be more fun, but probably slower overall

I get what your saying Weeksy but unfortunately I’m not going there for fun on this occasion.

I have no knowledge of these trails but from what you write it sounds more of an endurance training camp than a technical training camp .

That’s right.  It’s targeting 4h endurance then climbing when fatigued, stressing my VO2max zone and muscular endurance.  And it’s doing it in technical wet and cold conditions because that’s a mental weakness of mine.  A bit of toughen up princess going on...

Fair enough , hope it pisses down for you . 🙂

It’s Wales in January, I’d be fairly confident it’ll be damp.

Do the climb on the HT, and then ride down the fire roads. You'll be fine.

If you want to work hard and work on skills, you'd be better doing bpw with me and the lads early Jan

If your last post is what you want I’d take a road bike....

Only ever done it once hardtail - 3 times on my 29er, but lots of times on my 26 inch Singlespeed.

You'll be fine

It’s Wales in January, I’d be fairly confident it’ll be damp.

Actually it’s one of the few times you have a decent chance of a dry ride, cold frosty rides are the tits in Afan!

I've done it on my Trek Superfly Carbon a few years ago, we did all the trails over a weekend and it was fine overall. Faster up, but much slower down. The main issue was comfort, specifically seated on the longer sections of rougher surfaces. It's the bits you just dont notice on a full sus, you just stay seated and cruise through it, whereas I was spending more time out of the saddle. Hill reps wise I would much rather do Whites Level climb if there is a shorter route back down (?), decent amount of effort involved to do it at a good pace and some technical features. It's tougher and more interesting than the Penhydd climb.

My first trail on my new clockwork evo 29er s was blade at afan a few months ago. Not enough air in forks. To much tyre pressure and it was fine. Used to full suspension too.

Tye final descent was brutal but it wasn't much better on my 26 inch stumpjumper fs with pikes.

It was the ride that made me realise o dont need full suspension.

There's quite a bit of mis-remembering on this thread.

Firstly, AFAIR Penhydd was instituted as a formal trail somewhere around 2002 as the 9feet.com trail, by which time all of us except the special ones were riding hardtails at the very least, and there were plenty of FSs around. There were few rigids on the trails by this time.

Secondly, anyone remembering what Afan was like in the early noughties is entirely wrong in there assesment of what it's like to ride now. It's been re worked and repaired and added to on multiple occasions since then.

It's undoubtedly still a trail centre in the truest sense of the word, with plenty of smooth roller coaster sections, but it's quite a bit rougher in many places than those groomed fresh trails from even 10 years ago. It's better for it too, much more interesting and rewarding now it's worn in/eroded.

I had a hoot the last couple of times I've taken the hardtail despite being a bit battered at the end.

Not read the whole thread yet, but I did Penhydd once on a hard tail and it was more than enough, the thought of doing it 4 more times after? No way.

I enjoyed Y Wal, but I think penhydd was the least fun morning out on a bike for a good long while.

Just caught up, if you’re looking to knacker yourself then Penhydd would be grand. It’s a miserable slog for about 65% of the ride.

If you are riding W2 at race pace, it will be pretty brutal whatever bike you ride it on, but it won't take you 4 hours.

Maybe he's stopping for tea & cake in that 4 hours?

You might remember I’m banned from pudding Mister P, no cake for me.    I’m not so sure, W2, 40 odd KMs up big hills and down technical trails on 30lb thing?  Remember I’ll have ridden cwm carn twice the day before also

i hope it takes 4 hours because sitting in a pub with a beer isn’t an option either sadly 🙁

Remember the discussion where you said "I need to get back to enjoying riding bikes"

Well.... Whilst i get the training.... Sure.. It's still got to be fun.

Out of interest, where are you going with this logic/plan ? Mildly curious.

Kryton, I would take your race bike and as suggested zip tie an old inner tube to the downrube if you are worried. I used to train a lot at Afan with an alloy Scott scale so no issues using a hard tail, but as you know it is recommended to train on your race bike or on a bike set up with the same geo.

Regarding training loops. I recommend doing multiple laps of whites level over w2. The whites climb is a good endurance and technical climbing test, you could do 3-4 laps in 4hrs which gives you repeatability on the technical stuff and is harder in terms of climbing. Each climb will take you 25 minutes threshold I guess.

Re. Penhydd for climbing reps, I'll see if I can find my old strava as there is a way you can mix up bits of penhydd and blue scar to get down pretty quickly not all on fire road. Personally I think there are two separate reps you can do. Either the very first singletracky switchbacked climb, but then after the initial descent turn right before the main penhydd climb and take the last section of blue scar back to the car park and start the rep again. I used to do this full gas and it gives you a vo2max style rep. Or just the penhydd fireroad for more sweet-spot / threshold intervals. If you just ride the fireroad back down you have minimal recovery between reps (much less than the climIbng time) if you mash up the trails to get down cruising on singletrack as directly as possible it works out about equal climbing/recovery from memory

Thanks Ferrals that looks good.

The purpose of doing W2 was for a Marathon race simulation but to "race" it slightly tired and on more technical terrain to make it more mentally challenging, mainly because I need more core work, (despite the fact I'm doing a lot of Nino style stuff over the next 3 months) and I spat my dummy at Hope, plus also got very tired on the extended down from the Tower at Exmoor.

Weeksy, yes I know this does not compute 😀  If it help I have - because I insisted - a lot more weekend sessions on the MTB this year.  The net outcome of that is a return to tradition with my base aka a lot of road/Z2 over winter so I can play hard in Spring - they'll be plenty of Epping/Swinly/Peaslake sessions to come.

I think your easy/warm up day is twice as hard as your second race day if I'm reading it right.2 laps of Cwmcarn are around 30 ish miles of with nigh on 6000ft of climb-mostly singletrack?
Fair play to yer.

The purpose of doing W2 was for a Marathon race simulation but to “race” it slightly tired and on more technical terrain to make it more mentally challenging,

In which case there is a value to extra experience of handling your race bike at its limits when you are fatigued. Particularly on the Whites Level climb, if you're saving that to after halfway.

I agree with Ferrals that reps on the Whites Level climb would be a better test and give you 'lap times' and stats you could look at later. Brutal though!

Ferrals and Martin you have a point - I need to remind myself why I'm there - race bike it is, thanks.

Kryton. Don't discount BPW.
Mat and I went for the day in the summer and used our Topfuels without the uplift. It's a cracking climb each time and you get to go straight into any number of red/blue trails for the descent. We clocked over 2000m in 5 hours but interestingly enough it was the descending that wore us out more. Proper training session and absolutely brilliant fun too. What's not to love about that?

As for Afan, I used to ride it on my Boardman hardtail back in my very early days, followed by the Blue Pig. Have never ridden it on a FS but would definitely take the TF if I was going now. This type of bike is just made for loads of climbing and blistering descents.

Sure.  The Spark’s a great bike never in question.  Just need to keep it in one piece, and the Clockwork Evo is loads of fun... ...which is what clouded my judgement.

Plenty of time elsewhere to be had on the Evo though.

No cake and no beer? Might as well be dead 😂

What rob8624 said, W2 is 3 hours at a steady pace with a break or two.

I grew up riding Afan on a hardtail, in fact I rode The Wall on a rigid trials bike with the seat up a few times. It'll be fine!

Sounds like a great weekend.

I'd take the full sus as post felling afan is pretty rough going in places. For your training goal of toughening up for racing, it seems sensible to use the race bike

On day 3 instead of 4*penhydd, you could do penhydd, wall, penhydd, wall, or some other combination. Would be much more interesting.

Or wall, penhydd, wall, blue scar. And do the different routes at the top of y Wal.

Your lower back will hate you riding a HT round W2 in my experience. Last time I did it I crashed on the S4 black from the top of Y Wal, first time I did I swore I wouldn't do it again, dunno why I did it again. I think it's the square edge hits on the climbs that ruined my weak flesh.

b) Day 2 – ride W2 at race pace aiming for as close to 4h as I can get.

Four hours?! That's party pace!

I've ridden it all loads of times of a hardtail, it's perfectly fine. There was only one time I felt a little bit underbiked and that was rattling down the last descent of Blade when it first opened, but it was okay I didn't crash or die.

Four hours?! That’s party pace!

@Kryton57 doesn't party, he's a serious athlete dontcha know?

4 hours was the fastest suggested time on the MTB Wales website so I just quoted that.   What I mean is  "as fast as possible".

Thanks for all the route suggestions.  Can you still go up the Whites climb, turn right for a few hundred yards and turn back in to the final Whites down back to the start/finish?

4 hours was the fastest suggested time on the MTB Wales website so I just quoted that. What I mean is “as fast as possible”.

If you're actually looking for a four hour duration workout you need to plan what to do with the extra hour and a bit once you've finished. I did it in under four last time, and that included some faffing, a big heavy bike, not really trying all that hard, and stopping at the bike park hut trying to find someone to sell me a coke. 🙂

Well, sounds like a day out on W2 from/to Glencorryg then along the railway path to the other trail centre then Penhydd, returning the Whites the next day for the climbing intervals as suggested?

when I used to do W2 I never used the linky bit of trail, I'd ride all of Whites first then head down the railway track (4miles if I remember) and then ride all of the Wall. Then back up the railway track to where I'd started at Skyline bike shop. It clocked at about 30miles and riding at normal pace used to take me about 3h40min, with a quick fuel stop for an energy bar.

Inconclusive musings on bike choice:

1) for fire road and non technical climbs, tyres are going to be the biggest factor

2) the whites/blade first climb would be better on a FS for traction, and just powering full speed at the step ups.

3) parts of penhydd, and the final whites descent to Glyncorryg ponds (after energy) would be challenging/slower on a hard tail, due to random pointy rocky chunder.

4) most other places on the trails the majority of the trail is smooth enough for a HT, with rough patches being "deliberate obstacles" which can be adequately attacked/ridden with a hardtail

5) no's 3 and 4 imply more skill needed for the hardtail, but the same level of staying light on the bike and protecting the rear rim and tyre realistically also applies to a FS XC race bike

6) if the goal is to practice technical riding while exhausted, practise on the race bike.

Out of curiosity, when are you planning this self torture?

January

or maybe February depending on when its suits my plan.

TBH you'd have way more fun on a long natural adventure ride in the area, although this may not be your aim. I ride back from Afan to Cardiff after a family ride, it's awesome.