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While I wait on a resolution to my cracked Calibre Dune, I'm going with the default position of suck it up. Thus thoughts turn to a new bike and while fat has been fun, I do miss the speed and milage of the open road. Linking all the bridleways and byways on the fattie could be a bit of a chore at times, so I'm looking for something with a bit more oomph.
As I don't particularly want to sell a kidney, lung and spleen, and my wife might object to me selling both the kids, I can't afford a 3T Exploro; but that's what I'd really like. Something that I can go fast on road, but also whang it along the local bridleways and byways. So if my budget was up to £2K, what bikes should I be looking at…?
I quite liked the look of the Marin Gestalt X11, but was worried it was a bit more off-road focused. I've always liked the look of the NS Bikes RAG+, but maybe fancy having a carbon frame for a change. I'm open to suggestions.
Thanks,
After seeing the Space Chicken posts last week I was sore tempted and I wasn't even looking for a bike...
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/new-bike-day-gravel-and-on-one-planet-x-content/
They actually make aero gravel bikes?
Which are by definition mostly upright and so not aero?
@rOcKeTdOg Bergamont Grandurance 6…? Quite the price difference between that and the Elite…
@eddiebaby I saw that thread and have always liked the look of that bike. I'd just rather not give them my money…
@cynic-al Looks fast sitting still…
Not really aero, but very, very fast on the road and really good off it too is the Kinesis G2.
Surely the only way a bike can be fast on the road is by being aero?
RAG+ owner here. It's not aero but the riding position is lower than some similar bikes, if you want to 'slam it'. I really like mine, it's used for commuting and shortish, quick rides around the local tracks. It feels properly sturdy and is quick enough on the road using 38c tyres.
Space chicken.
Oh...
😐
Which are by definition <s>mostly upright and so not aero?</s> a drop bar bike like any other
Upright positioning is a personal preference, not a definitive characteristic. My road, cx and gravel bikes are mostly setup fairly similarly. The odd one out is the vagabond which I'm struggling to love at the moment.
Knobbly tyres are obviously a hindrance but there's probably still gains to be made. I suspect though that they're less than on the road, simply because turbulent air tends to break away more cleanly* so the difference between a square box rim and a deep section will be less with a knobbly than it would with a slick.
I've been riding my Plug in SSCX guise a lot recently and it certainly feels fast on unsealed roads (and seem to get loads of strava PB's whenever I take it out so must be doing something right).
Having said that, I think that once you've dealt with the riders position you've got most of the benefit. Any gravel bike will probably feel like a rocket ship compared to a trail bike just because it weighs <20lb and has fast tyres on it. It would be interesting to see what the actual difference between a proper XC race bike and a proper gravel racing bike actually was.
*Golf balls, chimney spirals, vortex generators on truck cabs etc.
Having said that, I think that once you’ve dealt with the riders position you’ve got most of the benefit
That's my point - the most significant thing to get you aero is your tuck. I wonder how many riders of aero gravel bikes have that sorted.
Carbon Rondo HVRT? Looks aero at least, adjustable geo to address some of the issues above....maybe not gravel enough?
I'm not sure I can unsee the brake caliper fairing though
@remoterob you find me a Rondo HVRT CF for under two grand and I'll buy it… 🤣 The RUUT is already on my dream on dreamer list.
I wonder how many riders of aero gravel bikes have that sorted.
Probably most of them if they actually race. If they don't then what does it matter?
That’s my point – the most significant thing to get you aero is your tuck. I wonder how many riders of aero gravel bikes have that sorted.
True, but like the eternal "shall I lose some weight or have a poo?" question, the two aren't mutually exclusive. You can have a light bike and have a poo, just like you can think about your position and have an aero bike.
Specialized claim their new roubaix is ~24 seconds faster over 40km (presumably in 1 hour at pro speeds?). Which is a lot if you're racing someone in a breakaway. But for the average rider I suspect that "feels fast" is more important than actually being fast, and in that respect any alloy or carbon gravel bike will probably feel fast. I was out for a blast yesterday and most of the time the limiting factors were my arms giving up 3/4 the way across a field of crops from the constant shaking, or my brain wondering quite how much punishment I really should be dealing out to a 5 year old alloy fork.
Giant TCX, carbon version.
It doesn't matter as such, but the rider may be buying a bike based on a benefit that doesn't exist, and possibly drawbacks like less comfort.
It doesn’t matter as such, but the rider may be buying a bike based on a benefit that doesn’t exist
Are you saying there is no benefit in aero bikes?
For some reason I started browsing on AliExpress and turned up this, which looks suspiciously like a 3T Exploro:
Has anyone heard of this Carbomania bunch before…? I hadn't thought about going build your own, but that's tempting.
bikebouy
Subscriber
Giant TCX, carbon version.
Would a Revolt not make more sense than a CX bike?
I think my gravel bike is probably the one I'd least like to get as an open mold from china. It depends on your particular definition of "gravel" but mines probably the bike I hammer the furthest outside it's original design intent!
If you're medium or medium/large then Pauls have the TCX SLR 1 for £1349, splurge the change on some carbon lightbike wheels, carbon post and nice bars and you'd have a rocketship of a bike.
[edit] and the carbon version is £1499!
I’m just recommending what I have.
The TCX is an ace bike for either CX or Gravel, and I’ve raced both on mine.
Worth looking for deals on last years model..
I built this for not far over £2k (I think).
[url= https://i.ibb.co/yfTq7M3/32-D6-D020-30-D4-4549-AEAF-DD328995-BA68.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.ibb.co/yfTq7M3/32-D6-D020-30-D4-4549-AEAF-DD328995-BA68.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
Start fitness have the frames down to £1499 and I shopped around and reused parts I had for the rest - eg wheels were sale from crc for £180, seatpost I had, cassette is sunrace. Shop smart and you might get near your budget.
It weighs hardly anything and is an absolute rocket. It’s not aero as such but I’d be surprised if there was anything as fast and comfortable other then the 3t.
@mashr @bikebouy I did think the Revolt might be better suited, but open to ideas…
@thisisnotaspoon that would be the only worry; could stick that new Shimano gravel groupset on it though…
@squealer nice looking ride, shame Start Ftiness only have it in Red and in sizes too big for me…
that would be the only worry; could stick that new Shimano gravel groupset on it though…
Depends how tribal you are about road groupsets. I've got SRAM on my CAADX and TBH after a few minutes you forget that it's different to shimano. With the added bonus that the SRAM 2x shifter works 1x just with a redundant paddle, whereas shimano keeps flapping which some find irritating.
The hoods look a bit bonkers but again it's invisible after a few minutes.
Just been out for another blast on the Plug SSCX, out of 29 Strava segments I got 22 achievements, 18 PR's, 2x top tens on a loop I'd normally do on the XC bike. I might be enjoying this bike a bit.........
There's probably a benefit to getting more aero, but as Al says it'll be marginal. The fun comes from the frame feeling stiff, the tyres being almost slick (I'm on schwalbe cx comp front and sammy slick rear) and the position just encourages you to push harder.
@thisisnotaspoon Not come across the Plug before, seems quite cheap…?
Are you saying there is no benefit in aero bikes?
No, I'm saying buying a bike on the basis of aero is of dubious benefit/a waste of £ if you can't/don't get your tuck optimised
No, I’m saying buying a bike on the basis of aero is of dubious benefit/a waste of £ if you can’t/don’t get your tuck optimised
Yes. But like I said if you're not at the pointy end of racing then what does it matter. If the op wants an aero bike, let him buy one.
Someone on an aero bike with a bad tuck is still going to be more aero than someone on a non aero bike with a bad tuck.
Not come across the Plug before, seems quite cheap…?
It is, it's probably not the bike I'd buy if I had £2K to spend. Just illustrating the point that £ =/= speed when it comes to bikes that are fundamentally already pretty light and rigid! There's not a lot you can really add to that formula beyond nicer groupsets and a sprinkling of carbon pixiedust.
I've got a caadx as my nice geared gravel/cx bike and it's nicer in just about every way. But the singlespeed makes you work harder up the long gentle inclines and occasional short sharp steep ramps that make up the climbs round here.
Those TCX carbons at Paul's have got me looking at the shed wondering what I could sell.......
Just been out for another blast on the Plug SSCX
Thisisnotaspoon - got any pics? Is it just stock? I'm converting my singlespeed road Plug into a geared gravel Plug, just curious what you've done with yours.
If the op wants an aero bike, let him buy one.
Of course he can, I'm just pointing out it may be a waste of money.
There’s not a lot you can really add to that formula beyond nicer groupsets and a sprinkling of carbon pixiedust.
@thisisnotaspoon this is the current focus of today's searching, as all the stuff suggested and mentioned so far has such a wide variety of components attached, it's hard to make direct comparisons. Having never had a bike with any carbon pixiedust, I'd quite like some… 🤷♂️
@cynic-al I can get myself into a full pike, with my forehead on my legs, getting in to an aero tuck is not hard. Staying in it for a long time on the other hand…
Thisisnotaspoon – got any pics? Is it just stock? I’m converting my singlespeed road Plug into a geared gravel Plug, just curious what you’ve done with yours.
Mine is the alloy version which would have come with cantis, the only mod has been to swap them to mini V's. Ive also got 35/38c tyres fitted (40's would fit comfortably and are probably my next change, looking at Continental Ride AT's).
I don't think the steel version would work so well as it's got caliper brakes and less clearance?
Loving it, but have to admit that even with drops my wrists and hands are quite painful this morning, but I really did go out to hammer it last night on rough* tracks. Would really like to try something like a Cannondale Slate with a proper 'fork' up front.
*Nothing gnarr, just farm tracks, byways, the odd bit of singletrack and arable fields.
this is the current focus of today’s searching, as all the stuff suggested and mentioned so far has such a wide variety of components attached, it’s hard to make direct comparisons. Having never had a bike with any carbon pixiedust, I’d quite like some…
I bought the plug SH to supplement the CAADX as a cheaper bike to be locked outside the supermarket etc. But having ridden it about 400miles now I'm realising how hard you can actually push these skinny wheels (the joys of cheap wheels I don't have to GAS about smashing). Need to get back out on the CAADX as TBH my previous riding was much more risk averse bimbling.
'Gravel' has taken on meanings as everything from bimbling on fire roads, making life deliberately difficult on XC rides, cx bikes, to racing, and there's bikes to suit all those so there's decisions to be made about what exactly you want. Id do what I did and get something like a cx bike with clearance and then see what you actually enjoy riding before spending a lot of money on a type bike that you may not actually like e.g. a slate vs a CAADX will suit very different rides or people, or at least their willingness to endure some discomfort!
Mine is the alloy version which would have come with cantis, the only mod has been to swap them to mini V’s. Ive also got 35/38c tyres fitted (40’s would fit comfortably and are probably my next change, looking at Continental Ride AT’s).
I don’t think the steel version would work so well as it’s got caliper brakes and less clearance?
Loving it, but have to admit that even with drops my wrists and hands are quite painful this morning, but I really did go out to hammer it last night on rough* tracks. Would really like to try something like a Cannondale Slate with a proper ‘fork’ up front.
*Nothing gnarr, just farm tracks, byways, the odd bit of singletrack and arable fields.
Ah OK, so same as mine then. I've got some 45c WTB Resolutes fitted on the MTB at the moment, hoping to squeeze them in but otherwise will start off with the stock 38c Kenda Kwiks until I decide it's worth persevering with. Fancied trying a Redshift suspension stem and something more shock absorbing under the saddle, maybe an eBay VCLS 'leaf spring' clone.
Adding gears with bar-end shifters, 38/25 Rotor chainrings and a Suntour XCD hub with 7 x 10 speed sprockets. Should be a fun build, will make a good winter road bike if nothing else...
Got to admit though that the 100mm Rebas on my 29er seem to make an awful lot of sense on typical Scottish 'gravel' terrain though...
Agree with cynic-al. Frame design is always a series of compromises. An aero tubeset for a gravel bike would be a curious priority when set against compliance and vibration dampening or weight. Similarly a gravel frame that prioritised getting the rider slippery over control or indeed comfort would be odd. I think you'd only really be doing either to make it look good leaned against the cafe wall.
I think 'gravel' + 'aero' is another US thing. From what I've seen of some of their 'gravel' terrain then aero seems relevant, but everything I've attempted to ride in Scotland (so far) demands more in the way of MTB suspension than it does aero, couldn't imagine holding a tuck or maintaining any sort of pedalling rhythm for very long.
Then again, aero wheels seem curiously popular in CX races, so what do I know...
Ref aero/deep section wheels for cx racing. It’s more to do with the rim profile shedding mud better than a flatter rim profile, and theoretically being laterally stiffer.
It’s not for aero gains.
I should really stop looking at the internet, it's just confusing… Just when you think you might have decided, you look at something else and change you mind. I think I need someone to slap me around the face with a fish and tell me to get a grip.
Anyway, never having run any SRAM stuff, I don't know how they different levels compare to to Shimano. Is Apex the equivalent of 105, or is that Rival…?
Is the Rondo RUUT AL just a better NS RAG+…?
If I stuck 28mm tyres on 700c wheels, and all other things being equal, went out for a long road ride on the Marin Gestalt X11 or Nukeproof Digger, would I really get pissed off that they're maybe not as racy on-road as the NS RAG+ or Rondo RUUT AL. Or would, as a mere plodding mortal, I not notice any difference whatsoever…?
Anyway, never having run any SRAM stuff, I don’t know how they different levels compare to to Shimano. Is Apex the equivalent of 105, or is that Rival…?
Apex is somewhere between Tiagra and 105, it's good solid kit generally.
Is the Rondo RUUT AL just a better NS RAG+…?
The frames are almost identical but the Ruut has that flip-chip fork thing, for what it's worth.
If I stuck 28mm tyres on 700c wheels, and all other things being equal, went out for a long road ride on the Marin Gestalt X11 or Nukeproof Digger, would I really get pissed off that they’re maybe not as racy on-road as the NS RAG+ or Rondo RUUT AL. Or would, as a mere plodding mortal, I not notice any difference whatsoever…?
The Marin and The Digger are more MTB inspired off-roady g'bikes (see also Saracen Levarg and Whyte Friston) The RAG and Ruut are somewhere nearer the 'adventure road / evolved cx part of the spectrum, maybe they'd be a bit quicker but I suspect the wheels and tyres would be the biggest factor.
The problem I found with 28mm tyres in place of 38mm is you drop the bb by half an inch, and still have quite a long/slack bike by road standards, so it feels quite sluggish.
What big tyres gain in inertia you get back in BB height, the higher bb makes the bike feel more lively and nimble.
Apex/rival/force/red = tigra/105/ultrgra/red people will argue the toss but in broad strokes they're much of a muchness. Apart from a few grammes there's nothing really to split 105 and ultrgra and the same applies to SRAM. The more you pay the lighter the groupsets and the more polished (literally) the ascetics. I cant actually remember whether my CAADX is apex, rival or force........
SRAM is generally lighter for a given level, shimano shifts better. Ergonomically you just have to pick a side and defend your choice till judgement day.
As for the rag+ vs digger, ive ridden neither but my gut says go for 700c wheels unless you're short. I can see the argument for smaller stronger and better handling wheels, and the ability to swap to 700x25 without messing about the geometry. But big wheels just roll better. I'd consider 27.5 wheels either as a fudge on a cx frame or to squeeze a suspension fork in (slate) but not as a starting point.
Ah OK, so same as mine then. I’ve got some 45c WTB Resolutes fitted on the MTB at the moment, hoping to squeeze them in but otherwise will start off with the stock 38c Kenda Kwiks until I decide it’s worth persevering with. Fancied trying a Redshift suspension stem and something more shock absorbing under the saddle, maybe an eBay VCLS ‘leaf spring’ clone.
I'm on I'm on 39-16 gearing which is marginal, it's fine once I've warmed up but the first little hill hurts somewhat and o spend a lot of time 'pushing' the pedals rather than spinning! The original 42t (44?) chainring was high even on the road! I'm tempted to build a new wheel and go fixed/free with a 19t freewheel for climbing/descending and 17t sprocket for the flat rides.
Tyre wise I'm seriously impressed with the cheap schwalbes , apart from the sammy slick punctures too easily, I think due to the lack of any tread meaning there isn't much rubber. The file pattern is all but gone in the center already and I've ripped a lot of the intermediate side knobs off (which kinda makes me wonder what the purpose of more expensive dual compound tyres is!)
Decided to try and price up building a RAG+ myself. I'm sure I've missed stuff, and didn't do a particularly thorough job of finding suitable options. I'm also not sure if those Hunt wheels can take a 15mm thruaxle…
Component What Where Price
Frameset NS Bikes RAG+ CRC £600.00
Aheadset Brand-X Tapered CRC £13.49
Spacers Brand-X 5mm CRC £5.99
Stem Brand-X Road CRC £9.99
Handlebars Brand-X Road Racing 44cm CRC £9.99
Bar tape ??? CRC £10.00
Seatpost Brand-X Inline 6061 CRC £14.99
Saddle Ergon SR Road Pro CRC £89.99
Shifters Shimano ST-RX810 Rose £507.00
Brakes Shimano BR-RX810 Rose
Rotors Shimano SM-RT800 Rose £62.00
Bottom bracket Shimano SM-BBR60 BSA Rose £13.00
Chainset Shimano FC-RX810-1 Rose £182.00
Derailleur Shimano RD-RX812 Rose £91.00
Cassette Shimano CS-M8000 Rose £55.00
Wheels HUNT 4 Season Gravel X-Wide HUNT £329.00
Tyres WTB Resolute TCS Light 42c CRC £67.98
---------
Total £2,061.42
=========
Price Difference
NS Bikes RAG+ £1,599.99 £461.43
Rondo RUUT AL £1,699.99 £361.43ridley x trail carbon
@karnali nice looking bike, shame it's a touch over budget…
The Hunt wheels will take a 15mm axle, just make sure that is what you ask for when ordering the wheels. ADVNTR.CC have a review of the Rondo Ruut AL on their site.
@k1100t - that's a nice build list, what follows is entirely my own opinion so discard as you wish
Unless you are dead set on all new Shimano kit and especially the GRX stuff then you could save a lot of money getting your brakes and STI levers secondhand. As an example I recently got some RS685 Ultegra STI levers for £155, some 105 R7070 brakes for £31 (for the pair) and an Ultegra RX800 clutch mech for £55 - all in very good nick on ebay.
The GRX chainset looks nice but you could get a SRAM Rival or Force 1 for less, depends if you are into maximum brand synergy. Personally I'd look for nearly new Ultegra mechanical, there's plenty on sale from Di2 upgraders and get some nicer finishing kit and some custom built wheels on Hope or DT hubs, just because 🙂
@wind-bag aye, it'll be a tough choice between the RAG+ and the RUUT AL. If I had the extra cash, I probably just buy the RUUT CF2…
@joemmo I was browsing the internet this morning, and to be honest, I was looking at trying to find a Force 1 set-up. Couldn't quite figure out which bits went with what, most online retailers appear to have a weird mishmash in stock… Plus, for once, I'd quite like to actually get what I'd actually like, the last few bikes have been compromises.
The problem I found with 28mm tyres in place of 38mm is you drop the bb by half an inch, and still have quite a long/slack bike by road standards, so it feels quite sluggish.
What big tyres gain in inertia you get back in BB height, the higher bb makes the bike feel more lively and nimble.
Bb height doesnt make the bike accelerate any slower or faster. If I run 30mm slicks my gravel bike is capable of group road rides, if I fit 38mm tyres I cant keep up with my normal group. The bike feels fine with either. "Nimbleness (is that a word?) and "liveliness" not really important in keeping up on a group ride.
@k1100t that's cool, it would be nice to build up something with an all new group set certainly. RAG+ seems to be out of stock at CRC though, if that's where you were looking.
Oh and the frame comes with a stem, looks very similar to a Deda zero to me
@joemmo still not a hundred percent sure what I'm going to do, or what my actual budget is. Shame Rondo don't sell the RUUT AL as a frameset…
I have a vitus energie (apex 1x11 hydro which I like, took about 3 days to get used to) and because I use it for commuting as its primary function I put 28 slicks on. it feels more efficient because the 28s are designed for tarmac. The speed is all down to me though 🙂
Have you looked at the Kinesis Tripster AT? That was my original first choice but the rag came up on sale so I went for that.
Bb height doesnt make the bike accelerate any slower or faster. If I run 30mm slicks my gravel bike is capable of group road rides, if I fit 38mm tyres I cant keep up with my normal group. The bike feels fine with either. “Nimbleness (is that a word?) and “liveliness” not really important in keeping up on a group ride.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/nimbleness
I just found it made the bike uninspiring to ride.
@joemmo there's not much I haven't looked at… Decided to cull it all down to the RAG+ and RUUT AL, otherwise I'd just spend all day being indecisive and not getting anywhere. 🤦♂️
I just found it made the bike uninspiring to ride.
Another word that means not much at all. Have you swallowed a bike test buzz word bingo card?
K1100t
Where are you based I got my xtrail with full ultegra for £2k from a shop in North East, that price included swapping chainset for 165mm arms and a bike fit.
@karnali Based near Cambridge. And to be fair, I've yet to trawl though the local bike shops, apart from Light Blue (ISON's local shop), which I passed on the way back from the pub…
I know it's over budget but spread it over 12 months interest free?
Currently trying to convince myself not to
@baddddad Christ, wish I hadn't clicked on that link… 🤤 Could easily stick it on a 0% credit card and pay it off over ~24 months…
I had a RAG+ it was well put together and quite sprightly on the road. I found it to be a bit crap off road though, even on the canal towpath between Macclesfield and Marple. So seriously mild stuff. Just wasn’t comfy and couldn’t really get a rhythm up. I’ve looked at the Space Chicken, but put off by the fact it’s probably going to ride like the RAG.
YMMV as I’m a MTB rider at heart, used to steel hardtails that you can rag about (pun not intended) and probably don’t have the skill or finesse to get the most out of gravel bikes off road. In short the RAG just seemed like a road bike trying to be something else to me.
Another word that means not much at all
I'll break it down to words under 2 syllables just for you.
It is a bit shit.
Funny mine seems fine, obviously you are more discerning.
Shimano R7020 (105) disc groupset currently £367 at Wiggle, which is a good saving.
(Flat mount callipers)
https://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-105-r7020-disc-groupset/
In a twist of fate, (🤬 HMRC!) I now have a budget of around £2.5k for an Aero Gravel Speed Machine; more if I want to wait till the New Year. With that kind of budget, I'm now torn between building something like the RAG+, or just buying an off the shelf bike like the Rondo Ruut CF2.
How do you move from a pipe dream to reality...?
Go GRX, the levers have an awesome shape for off road compared to road designed ones.
Bit over your budget but in true recommend what you ride I love my bokeh, very pretty to look at and lovely to ride.
Aye, the Bokeh has always been just outside my price range. Having said that, depending on what HMRC send me, my budget in the New Year maybe around £3.3k, so it's not totally out of the question.
https://www.merlincycles.com/argon-18-krypton-xroad-disc-frameset-112522.html
That frame and that amount of money from the tax man will see you build something really light and fast.
I've been looking at an Orbea Terra with GRX. Not fully sure I will make use of a gravel bike but have not been feeling it on the road recently so thought the change might do me good. Does anyone know if the 600 and 800 GRX levers are the same size or are they like the first gen Shimano levers where the lower model, 505 i think , was a lot bigger .Btw , I am very impressed with the Myo custom paint scheme on the carbon machines.